Bolster Plans for 5.10 and Beyond

[Mournblood]

Why then, add this gear at all (considering all my above listed points) AND separate it entirely from the GC system (that, I might add, it took over a year to get to a tolerable level)?

 

This remains my biggest question as well. If adding a new tier of gear without an expansion (i.e. level cap increase) was truly necessary for MM/NiM GotM, why not integrate it into the current GC system? Wouldn't it have been easier and more efficient to add another 50 or 100 Command ranks for T5 rather than this whole MWS system you guys cooked up?

 

As Kendra pointed out, you finally tweaked GC to a tolerable level - though the RNG at T4 still sucks, at least there are ways to work around that. It would have made far more sense to incorporate new gear into the existing system. You could have traded 248 shells for 252, then 252 for 258, or saved up the UC (as several have done) to purchase 258 outright. Sure, players would get T5 in a matter of weeks as opposed to months, but how would that hurt the game for anyone? PvE players need to gear up their raid before they can meet gear checks and negotiate the added mechanics. PvP players aren't going to stop PvPing because they get BiS in a fraction of the time. In fact, the ease and ability to gear their alts will only help encourage players to continue PvPing. If you're trying to bake in player retention with a time sink via an arduous gear grind, it won't have the desired effect. If you're afraid players will get bored if they can get T5 too quick, guess what, the players who are still sticking around in a game with sparse new content aren't doing so because they're bored. And no, reskinned WZs, a new SH (regardless of how cool it is) and a new planet or two don't count as substantial new content. So for a tier of gear that is intended for MM raiders, why force a largely unnecessary gear grind on the rest of the populace?

 

Increasing Bolster to 252 was a step in the right direction to help mitigate the gear gap, but whenever you try to fix what isn't broken, you make it worse. Fix what is actually broken, like tank stats in PvP, and tweak what isn't to improve on it, like GC's horrific RNG at T4. If it was my decision to make, I'd postpone 5.10 to scrap the entire MWS system and fold T5 into GC. Your NiM raiders will be happy that they can more quickly gear for the more difficult mode, your diehard PvPers will be happy that they won't have to do PvE to get BiS and can get back to the business of being competitive (and can efficiently gear their Alts), and your casual players on both sides of the fence will be happy that it won't take them close to half a year just to have the best gear on one toon.

 

Seriously, you guys should be paying ME for this advice, not the other way around.

Edited November 10, 2018 by Mournblood

[SaerethDL]

Because the current system takes way longer to get gear than the previous system. I believe we should listen to feedback from casual players but unfortunately, a lot of them are so casual they just don't understand how gimped this current system has made them.

 

With a single gear system which we have now, pvp gear cannot be obtained faster than pve gear or raiders would just nuke pvp to get gear making the progression of raids a bit wonky. Because of this the time needed to get a set of gear is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than it was just to get a pvp set in every other expansion.

 

The irony is, you think you have a more equal footing with this current system - and you might - eventually after grinding casually for months being destroyed by people investing more time. Naive to the point where you're willing to almost be at a constant disadvantage because you don't understand gearing.

 

 

 

You click 13 more buttons. If that is too hard for you then I doubt you'll be missed in any games.

 

13 more buttons, how many times? It adds up when you do both PVE and PVP on a regular basis.. I dont just stick to one form, sometimes I'll do a pvp match then next jump straight into a flashpoint or herorics.. then jump back into a pvp match, then jump into an operation.. multiply that throughout the day and its not just 13 more clicks.. its hundreds of additional "unnecessary" clicks and can become tedious. I just like to hop in and out. I don't know how you can't possibly understand that? If you are the snave I think you are, you only do pvp so this really doesn't apply to you.. so I see how you can overlook it.

Edited November 9, 2018 by SaerethDL

[Mournblood]

You click 13 more buttons. If that is too hard for you then I doubt you'll be missed in any games.

 

I think this is off topic, but I see where they are coming from because I lived it. It was annoying constantly swapping gear sets for those who regularly did PvE and PvP (which I did back then). But it's a QoL issue, nothing more, and certainly not a reason to stand against bringing Expertise back. But let's remember, Expertise had other problems that people seem all too quick to forget about.

 

As for the QoL issue with multiple gear sets, there's a need for that currently with those who use multiple specs on the same toon, such as an Operative who goes from Healer to DPS. With the Outfit Designer, it shouldn't be too difficult or too time consuming for them to add the ability to swap gear sets in the UI. But that's a topic best discussed if and when they decide to bring back Expertise.

[Severith]

Wow. It amazes me how many people have forgotten how easy, cheap and casual friendly PvP Gear was to get in 4.0. I miss those days so much.

 

And really? Complaining about the 10 seconds it takes to swap gear sets? So precious! :D:D

 

And you forget how people farmed losses in pvp by refusing to wear expertise gear, intentionally losing as quickly as possible so they could get more mats for pve. Even though they were given free expertise sets.

 

#saynotoexpertise

[phalczen]

For me, it’s not an issue of the inconvenience of clicking buttons or carrying around an extra set. If you play any Alts you probably carry around extra sets anyway if you switch from dps to tank, or heals to dps, or whatever. Heck, the swapping of utilities is a lot worse than changing gear sets. Rather, for me, it was the advantage that no matter what content I was doing, whether it was chapters, flashpoints, ops, GSF, dailies, or PvP, I was progressing my character’s gear. I might only have 45 minutes per session a few times a week, so it was reassuring to know that whatever I do, I’m contributing to my character’s power getting better, or acquiring UCs to be used to upgrade other characters.

 

It also means that I don’t have to be as afraid to hop into PvP because I know my gear is at an acceptable level. I don’t know how much that fear of a gear gap plays into the behavior of other players, but it was a factor for me. I would be very disappointed if GC went away. That’s not to say that there isn’t room for improvement, or that the 258 pathway is going to be so awesome. And I acknowledge the obvious advantage for PvPers to have expertise, but for me it would be a downside, despite how “easy” some people say it was to gain enough warzones commendations for an optimized 208 set. Those people are looking at the grind of 4.0 through rose colored glasses, not for players who do a mix of all the game’s content on a limited basis.

Edited November 9, 2018 by phalczen

[LordTurin]

Man, the nostalgia about how great expertise was is a little crazy. And saying casual players are getting stomped more now than they were is also nuts. Casual players were dropping into WZs with 220 and 224 gear and doing 30% less vs being a few item levs below as they are now, amd folks were complaining about it

 

The other thing folks are forgetting is that 4.0 wasnt magically amazing for gearing just for PvPers, it was super easy for PvEers too. You could be full 224 in 3 weeks, and have 90% 224 gear in 1 week. The decision to make gear harder wasnt to screw over pvpers, it was to put some progression into both. Its just not the case that in 4.0 you could get gear faster in PvP than PvE, and i dont believe that was true before that either

[Totemdancer]

Thank you Eric for listening and making Bolster higher than 248.

 

But a lot of the anxiety on the forums could have been averted if you had come to us earlier and said you were reviewing it.

[Joonbeams]

I truly appreciate this update from Eric. I’m fine with the compromise to 252 — moreso because we got a detailed explanation of the issues the studio is balancing and the fact they understand our concerns and will factor them in for future updates. This type of communication is all I ask for...

[Raansu]

Why should casual players have to carry around/augment 2 sets of gear? Having a pure pve gear bolster is much more accessible.

 

Why should pvpers be forced to pve to gear at a decent pace? This argument goes both ways.

 

All they would have to do is make bolster more of a baseline and force all pve gear into a tier 1 pvp item level and then pvp gear improves on that. PvPers get their gear back and the casuals that never pvp anyways can have something.

 

Also, I'm a casual pve player who plays pvp 99% of the time. I had zero problems keeping a pve set in my inventory....takes 5 seconds to swap them out.

[Totemdancer]

Why should pvpers be forced to pve to gear at a decent pace? This argument goes both ways.

 

All they would have to do is make bolster more of a baseline and force all pve gear into a tier 1 pvp item level and then pvp gear improves on that. PvPers get their gear back and the casuals that never pvp anyways can have something.

 

Also, I'm a casual pve player who plays pvp 99% of the time. I had zero problems keeping a pve set in my inventory....takes 5 seconds to swap them out.

 

The problem all along with expertise and Bolster was Bioware never explained it properly. That was the main contentions with the system.

All pvers needed to do was wear 190 pve gear into pvp and it gave full expertise and bolstered them to about the same stats as reg pvp gear. The only difference was the lack of set bonuses.

Then playing pvp casually allowed them to collect the pvp gear rapidly and they could swap out 190 gear with 204 pvp gear.

 

The issues arose because people in epic pve gear (with much higher stats than ranked gear) would come into pvp and they wouldn’t have any expertise because their gear was so much higher.

If Bioware had explained this properly and put a gear check mechanism in place, the whole thing would have been less painful for everyone, including pvpers.

 

The only other option would have been to make the epic gear reverse Bolster and be capped at the 204 level with nearly a full amount of expertise.

The expertise pvp gear idea worked really well to balance the pvp geared players against the epic pve geared players. But there weren’t any other systems in place to explain how it worked properly.

 

When they look at a new system, they should take those things into consideration.

Edited November 10, 2018 by Totemdancer

[Syal]

so to clarify, current 248 is going to be 252

 

and a dedicated pvp gear is coming back ?

[Khaleg]

I sure hope you don't bring back that expertise nonsense. It might be ok for pure PVP players but it's a pain the *** for players who actually play the whole game on a decent level. Edited November 10, 2018 by Khaleg

[Totemdancer]

I sure hope you don't bring back that expertise nonsense. It might be ok for pure PVP players but it's a pain the *** for players who actually play the whole game on a decent level.

 

Explain why please. If you say it’s because you have to carry 2 sets of gear, I’m going to laugh.

[Xatoo]

For PVP, everyone should be the same as far as gear level goes. It's just more fair that way. Skill with a character is much more rewarding. Speaking of rewards, we need a different reward system for PVP to eliminate the "gear chase". I'm sure there are tons of alternate reward avenues available that players would like to see. Just something other than an improved stat based item.

 

Rewards could be anything in the game (I mean anything) from Strongholds or from the Cartel Market, to Cartel Coins. The options are really endless. It just needs to be something worth the time invested in playing. Overall, players will have more satisfaction playing on more even terms.

[Mournblood]

Explain why please. If you say it’s because you have to carry 2 sets of gear, I’m going to laugh.

 

It's because you have to grind two sets of gear. And contrary to what some folks are claiming, grinding a full set of Expertise gear was not that quick and easy. In many cases, you'd have to grind out additional pieces beyond the main set pieces that you could pull the mods from in order to properly optimize (the stock sets were horribly optimized, probably on purpose). In other cases, such as with Marauders and the "Smash" (Rage) specs, you would be grinding out two sets - one for the Jugg set bonuses (which at the time were better for Rage Maras than the actual Mara set bonuses), and another for the Mara set for the mods. Eventually, they fixed/improved the set bonuses, but you were still forced to grind multiples of pieces for optimization purposes. If you divided your time between both PvE and PvP back then, it could easily take you up towards 6-8 weeks to get a full set of Expertise gear on one toon. If you had lots of alts you played on, multiply that out.

 

As I alluded to in my earlier post, some of you are completely forgetting or glossing over the problems that Expertise brought with it. Yes, it created a separate gearing pathway for PvP that was not affected by PvE, and vice versa, but it also doubled the gear grind for those that did both AND it created an entry barrier for PvP. How many remember the players who'd show up in WZs without a single piece of Expertise gear? I do. It sucked, not only for them, but also for their team since without Expertise, you were basically a lamb tied to a stake as a snack for a T-Rex.

 

If I was going to be around for 6.0 (or beyond), I would not support bringing Expertise back. I liked having one set of gear regardless of what I'm doing in the game. If players want to make PvP only about skill and remove gear from the equation, then Bolster to BiS is the best way to accomplish that. But as Musco mentioned, doing so would remove a key component from regular PvP progression, and I'm not so sure everyone in the game would agree with that.

Edited November 10, 2018 by Mournblood

[Cronjaw]

Just give us sliders in a new gui window to adjust stats like power, alacrity, etc, and remove gear from PvP. Edited November 10, 2018 by Cronjaw

[Raansu]

It's because you have to grind two sets of gear

 

And? So what? They are two vastly different forms of content. I had zero issues doing that when I raided regularly.

 

And contrary to what some folks are claiming, grinding a full set of Expertise gear was not that quick and easy.

 

Except, ya know, it was. In 4.x you could save up comms in lowbies and easily be fully geared by the time you hit level cap. Even if you didn't pvp in lowbies, the weekly gave so many warzone comms that you could be fully geared after just spending a Saturday afternoon doing the weekly.

 

In many cases, you'd have to grind out additional pieces beyond the main set pieces that you could pull the mods from in order to properly optimize.

 

You didn't have to do anything. No, the baseline sets were not BiS and no you did not need to be BiS. The difference was minimal and it certainly wasn't going to be the make or break in a duel.

 

In other cases, such as with Marauders and the "Smash" (Rage) specs, you would be grinding out two sets - one for the Jugg set bonuses (which at the time were better for Rage Maras than the actual Mara set bonuses), and another for the Mara set for the mods. Eventually, they fixed/improved the set bonuses

 

Why even mention this? This hasn't been a thing for years, and pvers were doing it to because juggs set bonus had a damage boost after leap. So it wasn't exclusive to pvp gear. This is really dumb to even mention.

 

If you divided your time between both PvE and PvP back then, it could easily take you up towards 6-8 weeks to get a full set of Expertise gear on one toon. If you had lots of alts you played on, multiply that out.

 

When!? Back in 2.0? Grinding pvp gear past 3.x was not long at all. They streamlined it all the way up to 4.x were it was perfect. Why are we going back years to try and justify an argument on why pvp gear should not come back? Get out of here.

 

As I alluded to in my earlier post, some of you are completely forgetting or glossing over the problems that Expertise brought with it. Yes, it created a separate gearing pathway for PvP that was not affected by PvE, and vice versa, but it also doubled the gear grind for those that did both AND it created an entry barrier for PvP.

 

And? So what. I had two sets of gear even in pve. Last I checked, MMO's were all about end game gear grinds.

 

How many remember the players who'd show up in WZs without a single piece of Expertise gear? I do. It sucked, not only for them, but also for their team since without Expertise, you were basically a lamb tied to a stake as a snack for a T-Rex.

 

I used to run around naked in pvp and still would stomp people even before bolster became a thing. Bad players will always be bad. That said, all they have to do is change bolster to be more streamlined. Regardless of what ilevel you're wearing, just give that slot a tier 1 pvp item, and when a pvp piece is slotted in the bolster on that slot is removed.

 

I like having one set of gear regardless of what I'm doing in the game.

 

I don't.

 

Just give us sliders in a new gui window to adjust stats like power, alacrity, etc, and remove gear from PvP.

 

No thanks.

Edited November 10, 2018 by Raansu

[Mournblood]

And? So what? They are two vastly different forms of content. I had zero issues doing that when I raided regularly.

 

That's super awesome, for you. Glad it worked out for you so well. That however wasn't true for everyone.

 

Except, ya know, it was. In 4.x you could save up comms in lowbies and easily be fully geared by the time you hit level cap. Even if you didn't pvp in lowbies, the weekly gave so many warzone comms that you could be fully geared after just spending a Saturday afternoon doing the weekly.

 

That is patently false. I PvPed, a LOT, and I never obtained a full set of Expertise gear from scratch in a single day. And back then, my guild was winning nearly every match we played. As for accruing comms via lowbies, that part is true, but not everyone does that, nor should it be the basis for justifying a separate set of PvP gear.

 

You didn't have to do anything. No, the baseline sets were not BiS and no you did not need to be BiS. The difference was minimal and it certainly wasn't going to be the make or break in a duel.

 

That's like saying why bother min/maxing your gear? People do it, a lot, because it gives them a competitive edge, in both PvE and PvP. Claiming otherwise is disingenuous.

 

Why even mention this? This hasn't been a thing for years, and pvers were doing it to because juggs set bonus had a damage boost after leap. So it wasn't exclusive to pvp gear. This is really dumb to even mention.

 

When!? Back in 2.0? Grinding pvp gear past 3.x was not long at all. They streamlined it all the way up to 4.x were it was perfect. Why are we going back years to try and justify an argument on why pvp gear should not come back? Get out of here.

 

I mentioned it because it was part of the growing pains for Expertise gear. It didn't start off awesome. And it's folly to assume that IF Bioware brought back Expertise, you wouldn't be dealing with something similar to this all over again. If you think they are simply going to cut and paste the 4.0 system back into the game, you're being naïve.

 

And? So what. I had two sets of gear even in pve. Last I checked, MMO's were all about end game gear grinds.

 

MMOs are about character progression. Gear grinds happen to be one of the more common methods of accomplishing that. That doesn't necessarily mean that adding another gear grind is a good thing, as the contention over T5 in 5.10 has illustrated. I don't know if you've been paying attention, but the player demographic for MMOs has changed. Gone are the days of two-day 65 man raids in EQ. The player base paradigm has shifted more to casual players who don't have countless hours to spend playing a game because they have real life responsibilities, such as family, careers, school, military obligations, or all of the above. If you're able to make short work of gear progression and you don't live in this game, then good for you, but not everyone is as awesome as you are.

 

I used to run around naked in pvp and still would stomp people even before bolster became a thing. Bad players will always be bad.

 

Not against me you wouldn't, or any competent players who are geared appropriately for PvP. In fact, I loved meeting players like you who thought they were cool or being funny running around naked in a WZ. I'd send you back to your respawn faster than you could type /stuck. And yes, bad players existed before Expertise, during Expertise, and after Expertise. The difference is that they aren't being bad on purpose - they just don't have the skill or experience - whereas free kills like you running around naked are being bad on purpose. And being bad with Bolster is an entirely different prospect than being bad without any Expertise gear, which provided +30% damage to the player wearing it against someone not wearing it, and 30% damage reduction against that player wearing it from someone not wearing it. That's not even remotely as forgiving as someone showing up in 208s in the Bolster system.

Edited November 10, 2018 by Mournblood

[giorgo]

It's because you have to grind two sets of gear. And contrary to what some folks are claiming, grinding a full set of Expertise gear was not that quick and easy. In many cases, you'd have to grind out additional pieces beyond the main set pieces that you could pull the mods from in order to properly optimize (the stock sets were horribly optimized, probably on purpose). In other cases, such as with Marauders and the "Smash" (Rage) specs, you would be grinding out two sets - one for the Jugg set bonuses (which at the time were better for Rage Maras than the actual Mara set bonuses), and another for the Mara set for the mods. Eventually, they fixed/improved the set bonuses, but you were still forced to grind multiples of pieces for optimization purposes. If you divided your time between both PvE and PvP back then, it could easily take you up towards 6-8 weeks to get a full set of Expertise gear on one toon. If you had lots of alts you played on, multiply that out.

 

As I alluded to in my earlier post, some of you are completely forgetting or glossing over the problems that Expertise brought with it. Yes, it created a separate gearing pathway for PvP that was not affected by PvE, and vice versa, but it also doubled the gear grind for those that did both AND it created an entry barrier for PvP. How many remember the players who'd show up in WZs without a single piece of Expertise gear? I do. It sucked, not only for them, but also for their team since without Expertise, you were basically a lamb tied to a stake as a snack for a T-Rex.

 

If I was going to be around for 6.0 (or beyond), I would not support bringing Expertise back. I liked having one set of gear regardless of what I'm doing in the game. If players want to make PvP only about skill and remove gear from the equation, then Bolster to BiS is the best way to accomplish that. But as Musco mentioned, doing so would remove a key component from regular PvP progression, and I'm not so sure everyone in the game would agree with that.

Wow! This is so trash that it does't even belong in the recycle bin.

A full set of pvp gear cost was ~4500wz comms. A win gave you ~120, a loss ~80 so lets assume ~100 per game. Daily reward was 100 and weekly was 300. Now do the effing math. In less than 10 effing days, playing super super casual you had your set and a few hundred comms to spare for min/max.

 

6-8 weeks you said. Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

[Mournblood]

Wow! This is so trash that it does't even belong in the recycle bin.

A full set of pvp gear cost was ~4500wz comms. A win gave you ~120, a loss ~80 so lets assume ~100 per game. Daily reward was 100 and weekly was 300. Now do the effing math. In less than 10 effing days, playing super super casual you had your set and a few hundred comms to spare for min/max.

 

6-8 weeks you said. Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

 

I recall that you had to trade in sets, and the cost of each set scaled up. So you started off with the lower tier set, then upgraded those pieces along with the appropriate number of Commendations for the next tier, and so on. So for someone starting out from scratch on a fresh level cap character, it wasn't as quick as you're claiming.

 

I think you (and others) are thinking of someone who's already in the current tier of gear, upgrading to the next, which didn't take weeks to do. And if that's accurate, then yes, it was relatively quick to move from the current tier to the next in the last iteration of Expertise we had.

 

The context that matters here is someone who's just starting to PvP at level cap. The new player. What will they have to do to go from 248 -> 252 -> 258 if we're using what will be present day gear tiers. Furthermore, if they do bring back Expertise gear, they aren't going to let you trade in current (non-Expertise) gear for it. You'll likely have to grind up to BiS through two or three tiers. That's where the time starts to protract, for each and every character you do it on.

Edited November 10, 2018 by Mournblood

[Raansu]

That is patently false. I PvPed, a LOT, and I never obtained a full set of Expertise gear from scratch in a single day. And back then, my guild was winning nearly every match we played. As for accruing comms via lowbies, that part is true, but not everyone does that, nor should it be the basis for justifying a separate set of PvP gear.

 

At the tail end of 4.x before they removed pvp gear and added the garbage CXP system they had increased warzone comm rewards in the weekly and daily, reduced the cost of gear and you could trade in comms for legacy tokens. You 100% could get fully geared in 1 day. I don't think you ever pvped regularly.

 

Lowbies was actually popping back then too, so yes I will use that as part of a basis for my argument, especially given how dead lowbies are now.

 

That's like saying why bother min/maxing your gear? People do it, a lot, because it gives them a competitive edge, in both PvE and PvP. Claiming otherwise is disingenuous.

 

That "edge" is minimal. In the grand scheme of things casuals are only doing unranked warzones. There is no need to be BiS.

 

Not against me you wouldn't, or any competent players who are geared appropriately for PvP. In fact, I loved meeting players like you who thought they were cool or being funny running around naked in a WZ. I'd send you back to your respawn faster than you could type /stuck. And yes, bad players existed before Expertise, during Expertise, and after Expertise. The difference is that they aren't being bad on purpose - they just don't have the skill or experience - whereas free kills like you running around naked are being bad on purpose. And being bad with Bolster is an entirely different prospect than being bad without any Expertise gear, which provided +30% damage to the player wearing it against someone not wearing it, and 30% damage reduction against that player wearing it from someone not wearing it. That's not even remotely as forgiving as someone showing up in 208s in the Bolster system.

 

lawl you sound like a free kill player.

 

I recall that you had to trade in sets, and the cost of each set scaled up. So you started off with the lower tier set, then upgraded those pieces along with the appropriate number of Commendations for the next tier, and so on. So for someone starting out from scratch on a fresh level cap character, it wasn't as quick as you're claiming.

 

PvP gear was always only 4 ilvl difference between ranked and unranked gear. The two tiers were barely a 2% difference in stats.

 

I think you (and others) are thinking of someone who's already in the current tier of gear, upgrading to the next, which didn't take weeks to do. And if that's accurate, then yes, it was relatively quick to move from the current tier to the next in the last iteration of Expertise we had.

 

Except we're not. 4.x from scratch was extremely easy to get tier 1. And tier 2 was just as quick, but for regs all you needed was tier 1.

Edited November 10, 2018 by Raansu

[giorgo]

I recall that you had to trade in sets, and the cost of each set scaled up. So you started off with the lower tier set, then upgraded those pieces along with the appropriate number of Commendations for the next tier, and so on. So for someone starting out from scratch on a fresh level cap character, it wasn't as quick as you're claiming.

 

I think you (and others) are thinking of someone who's already in the current tier of gear, upgrading to the next, which didn't take weeks to do. And if that's accurate, then yes, it was relatively quick to move from the current tier to the next in the last iteration of Expertise we had.

 

The context that matters here is someone who's just starting to PvP at level cap. The new player. What will they have to do to go from 248 -> 252 -> 258 if we're using what will be present day gear tiers. Furthermore, if they do bring back Expertise gear, they aren't going to let you trade in current (non-Expertise) gear for it. You'll likely have to grind up to BiS through two or three tiers. That's where the time starts to protract, for each and every character you do it on.

The experstise system was the most alt friendly system and everybody kmows this. There was even a dev thread back in the days stating that pvp grind is too much we will reduce it and then they cut the costs and introduced legacy wz comms.

Starting from scratch, that was the best system. If you were casual you had a full set in less than a week (204).If you were serious, in 2 days. BiS was 208 you had that in 2 weeks.Compare this with all the guys in pvp today that have less than 120k hp and tell me how is the current system better. Actually don't i am done arguing with you. You lost all credibility...6-8 weeks, hahahahahahahaha!

[Rion_Starkiller]

In 3.x Dark Reaver 174's took a while compared to 4.0's 208. It may not have been 6-8 weeks, but it was noticeably longer grind.

 

Also, with expertise, it's 1 extra set per role. If you play a healer and a dps on the same toon, that's 4 sets of gear. Ugh.

 

That said, Bolster can work both ways. Why can't bolster downgrade maxed PvE set to max PvE levels? (ex: like when you currently visit Tython)

 

But I don't think Musco came out and said Expertise specifically, so maybe there will be a different system.

Edited November 10, 2018 by Rion_Starkiller

[Rion_Starkiller]

oops double post Edited November 10, 2018 by Rion_Starkiller

[Neulwen]

Thanks for the update and it's great to see you are listening to feedback from players! Increasing bolster to 252 is definitely an improvement (also considering augments will be bolstered), but it still doesn't address the issues of how gear is obtained for pvpers.

 

The current system with UCs works alright, so why change that, especially as, as you say, this is not an expansion level update? As many of us have written elsewhere on the forum, the new gear will require enormous amounts of UCs, which leads to a very long time to gear up for pvp, which leads to more unevenness, which leads to less enjoyable wz games. In addition, pvpers will be forced to do pve content, which many don't enjoy (we will at the very least need hero rank with the new faction to be able to buy the gear, if I've understood correctly).

 

I understand that you want to reward NiM ops players with gear, and having been a pve raider both here and in wow back in the day, I know these things are slow. The problem is this just doesn't translate into pvp.

 

You say

A number of players have brought up the idea of having Bolster be at the highest item rating available. Effectively making gear in PvP irrelevant, where skill is the only deciding factor. Although we understand the desire from players on that side of the debate, it does introduce some issues. If there is no gear chase from PvP that removes all progression from PvP gameplay and it also removes a part of the reward structure.

But why should pvp gearing be hindered by NiM ops gearing progression?

 

I do not see the need for a pvp gear progression at this point, and especially in the proposed form. I see two possible solutions:

 

1: Make the new gear more easily obtainable for pvpers.

Lower the UC costs of the new gear, and remove the reputation requirement for buying them. Now it might feel unfair to high-end pveers that we can get the best gear so relatively easily from pvp when they have to do the most difficult pve for it, but I really don't see any other solution for this with the current one-for-all gear system. If UC costs remain very high, it will be unfair to pvpers on the other hand. Already as it currently is, gearing up to 248 for a new or returning player takes quite a lot of time, for pvp purposes.

 

Edit: If you do make the new gear more easily obtainable, please also remove their slot-specific lock on mods and enhancements.

 

2. Increase pvp bolster to 258.

This would not feel unfair to anyone, I think. It would remove gear progression from pvp, but most players now either have full gear with enough UCs to gear a desired alt in 248 anyway, or do not have any gear and feel unwilling to play due to the large grind (some of my friends feel this way for example).

 

 

As for the more distant future, yes, expertise gear does have its problems, but so does a one-gear-for-all. Separate pvp and pve gear would work so long as bolster would bolster all non-pvp gear to be very close to pvp gear, and pvp gear would be fast to get with wz comms like it was in 4.0 or around that time(?) This way, pveers who refuse to use pvp gear would still be viable in pvp, and for others, pvp gear would be easy to get. But it requires a good bolster, lest we get situations with certain pve gear bolstering to horrible pvp stats again.

 

Either that or simply make a bolster that bolsters everyone to equal ilvl, removing gear quality as a factor from pvp, but (IMPORTANT!) retaining the possibility to tweak stat weights. So it would still be beneficial for pvpers to obtain gear to perfect our stats, and this gear should be easy to get via pvp. Have pvp reward wz comms that can be used to purchase this gear and cosmetic items.

 

And as Kiesu wrote, please implement a vendor that sells pvp mods/enhancements for wz comms, like it used to be.

 

And yes, fixing tank stats in pvp to actually be useful should also be a priority.

Edited November 11, 2018 by Neulwen