Bolster Plans for 5.10 and Beyond

[Rafiknoll]

Well joke, if they arent NIM raiders then they've no access to the good gear and are not part of this discussion.

 

I didn't put them in. You did when you said:

The only way that playing field is even is if A) the PVE players are skilled (vast minority) or B) the PVP players are unskilled (Vast majority). So it's not even an assumption, it's simply what I've experienced in >10000 games.

 

And my response in other words was: the only players which are part of this discussion are this "vast minority", so the argument that they are a minority doesn't stand here anymore.

 

Regardless, the original reason I bumped into the conversation was to drop the condescendence war that I was seeing in the last few posts, and the situation already improved quite nicely as I see it is now "unless you suck" (suggesting a possibility) rather than assuming and offending.

 

About the objective discussion: I don't like where things seem to be going but I usually rather reserve judgment of the severity of the stat gap and gearing speed until after the patch (and the patch "a" that will fix the bugs in that patch). So as much as I am not really looking forward to it, I will settle to not wasting my time too much arguing numeric guesswork about things that will eventually be visible to all.

[Totemdancer]

I wish they would remove Augments completely from the Bolster equation. Then they would actually mean something for people with bolstered gear.

[Rafiknoll]

I wish they would remove Augments completely from the Bolster equation. Then they would actually mean something for people with bolstered gear.

 

The problem with that is that augments too require a big grind, so the same logic that says to balance people who already grinded the rest of their gear and people who didn't (yet), applies to augments too. We don't want the lack of bolster to create too big a gap between those who already farmed PVP and have full 240 augments and those who can only settle with 228 for now.

 

TBH it is already not such a nice system where some of the BiS items can be purchased via credits, giving cartel market GTN players a gearing advantage. If anything should be completely bolstered over (meaning: bolstered up to BiS or even beyond it to nullify all differences in rating), it should be augments.

[Totemdancer]

The problem with that is that augments too require a big grind, so the same logic that says to balance people who already grinded the rest of their gear and people who didn't (yet), applies to augments too. We don't want the lack of bolster to create too big a gap between those who already farmed PVP and have full 240 augments and those who can only settle with 228 for now.

 

TBH it is already not such a nice system where some of the BiS items can be purchased via credits, giving cartel market GTN players a gearing advantage. If anything should be completely bolstered over (meaning: bolstered up to BiS or even beyond it to nullify all differences in rating), it should be augments.

 

Not really. 228 Augments are still fine to use and aren’t really a grind. They are also relatively cheap on the GTN

 

Look at it this way and you’ll hopefully see what I mean.

 

How the current system works.

 

You have 230 gear in every slot with a total gear rating of 230. You get that gear bolstered to 242 (roughly).

You add Augments to every piece, but your total gear rating still doesn’t reach 242. So those Augments are pointless because you don’t get extra main stats from them and if you go over the max allocation for a specific secondary stat, it will decrease health, main stats and some other secondary stats to make up for it. Adding them is a waste of credits and mostly time because you won’t get any benefit.

 

You finally gear up every slot so that your total gear lvl is 240-242 and add Augments to everything. Now those Augments actually add usuable stats. Especially if your gear level is 242 to start with. Adding Augments now can effectively make your total gear lvl around 244-246 (depending on which one’s you use).

 

The problem gets amplified for Bolstered players vs non bolstered players the higher the gear. So a 248 + high augmented player is essentially at 252+ gear lvl and playing a 242 bolstered player.

 

If those Augments were removed from the Bolster equation, the normal gear would Bolster to 242 and then the Augmented stats would actually work and be additional stats, exactly the same as 248 players get the additional stats from their Augments.

 

Augments shouldn’t be part of the Bolster equation and they also shouldn’t need bolster themselves. It’s not like they are bolstered in raids, only in pvp.

Edited November 14, 2018 by Totemdancer

[LordTurin]

I care because I liked what we had in 4.x. I got to constantly play around with stats for super cheap. If I wanted a stupid long grind I'd pve.

 

And this is the best example of how I know folks don't really know what they are talking about. In 4.0, PvP and PvE both had ridiculously short gear grinds. PvPers need to stop saying that "they deserve a faster gear grind" and "PvE should be long, and PvP should be short, cause 4.0 was that way". It wasn't. 4.0 had such a short gear grind you could be maxed out on either (or both honestly) it just a few days.

 

Seriously, make your argument that everything should be short, or everything should be long. But don't use 4.0 as an example of when PvP was short and PvE was long, cause that's not how that went down.

[Raansu]

And this is the best example of how I know folks don't really know what they are talking about. In 4.0, PvP and PvE both had ridiculously short gear grinds. PvPers need to stop saying that "they deserve a faster gear grind" and "PvE should be long, and PvP should be short, cause 4.0 was that way". It wasn't. 4.0 had such a short gear grind you could be maxed out on either (or both honestly) it just a few days.

 

Seriously, make your argument that everything should be short, or everything should be long. But don't use 4.0 as an example of when PvP was short and PvE was long, cause that's not how that went down.

 

I could care less about the pve grind. I don't like pve and I treat it as a separate format and so should everyone else.

 

PvP had its own currency, its own gear and its own pace for grinding and that is exactly how it should go back to. 4.x made gearing up relatively fast to help newer players.....which is exactly how it should be. No one wants to pvp for weeks and be dead weight, but vet pvpers still enjoy some form of playing with their stats and theorycrafting. 4.x was the best of both scenarios for pvp.

[Pearlie]

Hey folks,

 

A number of players have brought up the idea of having Bolster be at the highest item rating available. Effectively making gear in PvP irrelevant, where skill is the only deciding factor. Although we understand the desire from players on that side of the debate, it does introduce some issues. If there is no gear chase from PvP that removes all progression from PvP gameplay and it also removes a part of the reward structure.

 

 

This paragraph concerns me. I’m fully aware that I don’t speak for everyone on this matter, but Eric asked for thoughts, so I’m tossing my two cents in the hat. Definitively, I do not feel a sense of rewarding progression when acquiring gear. The rewarding progression comes from getting better. Mounts, titles, and cosmetics would be cool too. Also quadruple the number of warzone achievements.

 

I’ll say it again. Gear doesn’t keep people PvPing—it stops them, and that’s only assuming it doesn’t prevent them from starting.

[Totemdancer]

This paragraph concerns me. I’m fully aware that I don’t speak for everyone on this matter, but Eric asked for thoughts, so I’m tossing my two cents in the hat. Definitively, I do not feel a sense of rewarding progression when acquiring gear. The rewarding progression comes from getting better. Mounts, titles, and cosmetics would be cool too. Also quadruple the number of warzone achievements.

 

I’ll say it again. Gear doesn’t keep people PvPing—it stops them, and that’s only assuming it doesn’t prevent them from starting.

 

I 100% agree with this.

 

If Bioware really wanted to know they would Poll pvpers for an answer. I think they would find their theory that pvpers need progression gearing to play pvp to be false.

Edited November 16, 2018 by Totemdancer

[Raansu]

I’ll say it again. Gear doesn’t keep people PvPing—it stops them, and that’s only assuming it doesn’t prevent them from starting.

 

Gear doesn't keep people from pvping. PvP was actually doing really well in 4.X. Gear progression is fine, its the insane grind tacked onto it in 5.x that has pushed people away from pvp.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

This paragraph concerns me. I’m fully aware that I don’t speak for everyone on this matter, but Eric asked for thoughts, so I’m tossing my two cents in the hat. Definitively, I do not feel a sense of rewarding progression when acquiring gear. The rewarding progression comes from getting better. Mounts, titles, and cosmetics would be cool too. Also quadruple the number of warzone achievements.

 

I’ll say it again. Gear doesn’t keep people PvPing—, and that’s only assuming it doesn’t prevent them from starting.

 

Agreed. "Gear doesn’t keep people PvPing"..

 

"Killing people keeps people PVPing." [1]

 

[1] 'The World According to Grim' - Limited Edition.

Edited November 16, 2018 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[Totemdancer]

Gear doesn't keep people from pvping. PvP was actually doing really well in 4.X. Gear progression is fine, its the insane grind tacked onto it in 5.x that has pushed people away from pvp.

 

If they just brought back the 4.x gearing system “exactly” as it was, all these problems would be solved and pvpers might actually come back to the game instead of leaving it.

Edited November 16, 2018 by Totemdancer

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

If they just brough back the 4.x gearing system “exactly” as it was, all these problems would be solved and pvpers might actually come back to the game instead of leaving it.

 

Ya know what, I got a feeling they will in 6.0 which would be great for all parties concerned whether they realize it or not. Needs of the many over needs of the few.

 

I got my fingers crossed for that totally.

 

But whatever you guys think is best overall I'll be cool with.

Edited November 16, 2018 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[Pearlie]

Gear doesn't keep people from pvping. PvP was actually doing really well in 4.X. Gear progression is fine, its the insane grind tacked onto it in 5.x that has pushed people away from pvp.

 

I know for a fact several times over that the gear gap has kept people from playing. I also know that it has made people stop. You know, these days, most humans realize early on that they aren’t at the center of the universe.

 

I played plenty during 4.x. Yeah, it was way better than this, but that doesn’t mean it couldn’t have been better. Doesn’t even mean the gear system was good.

 

The difference between us when posting about this topic is that you’re kind of only thinking about yourself and your own personal enjoyment; whereas, I’m doing my best to consider anyone who may ever enter a warzone.

[Totemdancer]

Ya know what, I got a feeling they will in 6.0 which would be great for all parties concerned whether they realize it or not. Needs of the many over needs of the few.

 

I got my fingers crossed for that totally.

 

But whatever you guys think is best overall I'll be cool with.

 

I’m still on the fence as to wether 6.0 will make it to release. Do we have any official timeline except to say it’s next year?

[Rafiknoll]

I’m still on the fence as to wether 6.0 will make it to release.

 

I hope it does. 5.0 proved how great an impact can an expansion cause to a game and its population. Imagine the same magnitude of impact would happen in 6.0 but with the minor detail that it would be NOT a negative one. The game would become more popular than on release

 

[However, make it another negative one and the population will probably be a negative number as well ]

[Neulwen]

Definitively, I do not feel a sense of rewarding progression when acquiring gear. The rewarding progression comes from getting better. Mounts, titles, and cosmetics would be cool too. Also quadruple the number of warzone achievements.

 

I’ll say it again. Gear doesn’t keep people PvPing—it stops them, and that’s only assuming it doesn’t prevent them from starting.

 

Exactly. As I mentioned before, some of my friends are not returning to swtor because they don't have the time or desire to grind so much to gear up. And that's current gear. 5.10 will be even more grindy.

 

Look at Overwatch as an example. Very successful pvp game -- sure it's a different genre, but they're similar enough -- doesn't have any gear. All that matters is skill. And the level up system rewards pure cosmetic items.

I think we should still be able to tweak our stat weights via gear in swtor, as many people find that enjoyable and it gives slight extra playstyle options, but the alacrity to gcd breakpoint levels should be fixed (smoothed), as not all players will look up this info and tweak properly.

[Totemdancer]

I hope it does. 5.0 proved how great an impact can an expansion cause to a game and its population. Imagine the same magnitude of impact would happen in 6.0 but with the minor detail that it would be NOT a negative one. The game would become more popular than on release

 

[However, make it another negative one and the population will probably be a negative number as well ]

 

I so wish I still had your optimism. But 7 years experiencing disappointment from most expansions means my optimism has left for a holiday and I’m not sure it’s coming back because I found a note of the fridge the other day that said “adios sucker”... lol.

Edited November 16, 2018 by Totemdancer

[Pearlie]

Exactly. As I mentioned before, some of my friends are not returning to swtor because they don't have the time or desire to grind so much to gear up. And that's current gear. 5.10 will be even more grindy.

 

Look at Overwatch as an example. Very successful pvp game -- sure it's a different genre, but they're similar enough -- doesn't have any gear. All that matters is skill. And the level up system rewards pure cosmetic items.

I think we should still be able to tweak our stat weights via gear in swtor, as many people find that enjoyable and it gives slight extra playstyle options, but the alacrity to gcd breakpoint levels should be fixed (smoothed), as not all players will look up this info and tweak properly.

 

Completely agree about Overwatch and I've mentioned it before as an example. Translating SWTOR's entry level statistical disadvantage to that game would basically be like starting with 125 HP on Tracer, having a few extra seconds on Winston's jump pack CD, and just taking generally longer to charge an ult, etc.

 

Why should newbies be at a disadvantage? In every game where PvP happens, newbies are already at a major disadvantage simply due to the experience of veteran players. In Overwatch it's less obvious (save for smurfing) because there's so many more people playing, thus the matchmaking system works better.

 

Agree also about stat customization, which is why I think we need a PvP tab on our character sheets where we can tweak stats from a set pool, perhaps via sliders and/or boxes for specific percentage input.

 

I think the Developers think they're stuck with the model because it has been implemented for so long now. 15 years? I dunno, when did WoW PvP become popular? Doesn't matter. The traditional MMO gear grind makes sense for PvE, but for PvP it is painfully antiquated and I don't think it reflects today's average mindset of a competitive gamer.

[Mournblood]

I dunno, when did WoW PvP become popular?

 

WoW PvP was popular until they introduced Arena (the equivalent to SWTOR Ranked) and started gutting their Battlegrounds (aka Warzones in SWTOR). The separate gear for PvP and PvE was originally implemented as a means to keep the two mutually exclusive for class balancing, but the introduction of Arena undermined those efforts. The largest criticism of Arena being that it created a lot of balance issues trying to balance classes for 2v2, 3v3, 5v5 Arena matches versus 10v10 and 40v40 BG encounters. We've seen the same problem here to an extent when Bioware is trying to balance classes for 4v4 deathmatching versus 8v8 objective play. Furthermore, WoW gated the highest tier of PvP gear behind the current season of Arena, which meant that you had no choice but to play Arena if you wanted to be in top tier PvP gear.

 

I watched an interview years later (long after I had left the game) where Blizzard developers openly admitted that Arena was the biggest mistake they ever made in the game. Something tells me Bioware never saw that interview.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

I so wish I still had your optimism. But 7 years experiencing disappointment from most expansions means my optimism has left for a holiday and I’m not sure it’s coming back because I found a note of the fridge the other day that said “adios sucker”... lol.

 

Rafi's one of them glass half full kinda dudes.

[Storm-Cutter]

Can't believe that the team are even considering going back to expertise for PvP gear. - After all the fuss they made making changes to the gear so it was on par with PvE gear.

 

Just [fix bolster} and put it to BiS and give the players something different as a reward. There doesn't have to be gear progression for PvP. It was a flawed concept in the first place. - just to make people grind and sub longer.

 

If you want to give reward to old-time PvP-ers, give them something tied to their valour level. - Buff the 1st 20 Valor levels to encourage newbies, then reduce the step up until valor 100. - So it tops out at something like +2% or +5% - which should encourage people to play for it, but not give much advantage.

 

It's just a buff that triggers like bolster or throw-the-huttball does in a WZ and nowhere else. - It greys out and turns off when you leave.

 

Sheesh.... they really painted themselves into a corner over this issue. ( holding an angry and rabid womp-rat-skunk) At some stage someone is going to have to extricate themselves before they drown in paint, or have their faces chewed off.

Edited November 16, 2018 by Storm-Cutter

[Raansu]

I know for a fact several times over that the gear gap has kept people from playing. I also know that it has made people stop. You know, these days, most humans realize early on that they aren’t at the center of the universe.

 

I played plenty during 4.x. Yeah, it was way better than this, but that doesn’t mean it couldn’t have been better. Doesn’t even mean the gear system was good.

 

The difference between us when posting about this topic is that you’re kind of only thinking about yourself and your own personal enjoyment; whereas, I’m doing my best to consider anyone who may ever enter a warzone.

 

Better how? You could literally get full tier 1 in a single day in 4.x and warzone comms could be moved around with legacy tokens. As far as gear grinds go it doesn't get better than that and BW will never remove gear progression, so you can get that silly idea out of your head. If we're going to have progression it should go back to how it was during 4.x

[Wimbleton]

I think everyone just needs a dose of realism. Then, if you understand the game for what it is, you can just decide whether or not you want to play it.

 

Population will continue to dwindle, but I think alot of their income comes from the CM, since you see the most attention given to it. Those people are still around typing in moms CC and it makes the game profitable.

 

The minimal effort they put to the game for us subscribers is a far second, because so is our contribution to their revenue.

 

Should it be this way? No, but it is. It takes alot more money (hours spent by employees) to design and balance new content than it does to hang a new shirt graphic on the preexisting body models and throw it up in the CM.

 

The reason they force us into a grindy situation is because it causes us to stay subbed longer. It might not be fun, but it works. The people who arent going to play arent going to play, the people who arent going to come back arent going to come back. I think the amount of people who TRULY (not possibly) make their full decision not to sub or return based off of gear grinds or otherwise is small in the grand scheme of things.

 

Otherwise they'd do it differently and put more time into these releases and things like Dsync.

 

It's not the best situation, everyone has many ideas of how it could be better, and some of them are completely valid and well-thought-out. My point is, you're just fooling yourself if, at this point, you think any of that will make a difference as far as the foundation of the releases.

 

Hopefully they make gear achievable by all persons who play, if not at first, soon after the new release. They could do it by making CMTs trivial, or gear cheaper or currency legacy or many different ways. But beyond that, HOW they present the gear to you and make it available to you, they're going to just do it in whatever way they think will make for the longest possible time-to-achieve (grind) that they can get away with.

[Rion_Starkiller]

I so wish I still had your optimism. But 7 years experiencing disappointment from most expansions means my optimism has left for a holiday and I’m not sure it’s coming back because I found a note of the fridge the other day that said “adios sucker”... lol.

 

Has every change been disappointing for you? That sounds like burnout. Even if BWA was doing a particularly bad job, a broken clock is right at least twice a day.

 

Everything changes. Find your inner peace.

[Andryah]

Exactly. As I mentioned before, some of my friends are not returning to swtor because they don't have the time or desire to grind so much to gear up. And that's current gear. 5.10 will be even more grindy.

 

Look at Overwatch as an example. Very successful pvp game -- sure it's a different genre, but they're similar enough -- doesn't have any gear. All that matters is skill. And the level up system rewards pure cosmetic items.

I think we should still be able to tweak our stat weights via gear in swtor, as many people find that enjoyable and it gives slight extra playstyle options, but the alacrity to gcd breakpoint levels should be fixed (smoothed), as not all players will look up this info and tweak properly.

 

Apples and Oranges though.

 

If Overwatch required a gear treadmill.. it would not exist. It's effectively an esport platform, and gear serves no purpose in an esport format other then to force the parsing of the players or give ways for players to make up for poor skills and team work to some degree (which in my view defeats the purpose of an esport format).

 

Note: I support a "gear null out" in PvP for an MMO like SWTOR. It serves the PvP-only crowd with an esport style approach to PvP. That does bring complications to the rest of the content in SWTOR which do require and depend on gear (not everyone, probably no where near any majority in fact, does PvP-only in this or any other MMO). But the studio has so far made it clear they do not want PvP to follow an Overwatch model in an otherwise MMO format.

Edited November 16, 2018 by Andryah