The Status of SWTOR on Twitch

[Andryah]

Let me add some support here.

 

Don’t forget that WoW is also a real “world wide game” that has players in APAC (cause it’s got real APAC servers) and players from other regions.

It’s not a game that says its world wide (swtor), but only caters to EU and North American player’s timezones, server locations and lag issues. Which limits how many people are online during the time the OP decided to check.

Less and less people care about swtor because Bioware only cater to a select geographical audience and **** everyone else over.

You certainly won’t get many people in APAC, SE and Central Asia watching swtor on twitch when most of them can’t play anymore. Even less North and South Americans play or care since they moved the location of both US servers to the east coast.

But you will get people from those regions watching WoW on twitch because they can actually play it too.

It’s simple.

WoW is world wide with a 24/7 audience

Swtor is US east coast and EU and has a very restricted audience

So of course WoW will always have a **** load more people watching it and that is why using WoW or even twitch to measure swtor activity or health against it, is fundamentally flawed.

 

^^ Given the local time reference presented by the OP.. I think this is mostly likely the case. Midnight in Germany.... and he expects the rest of the world to work within the German time zone. WoW has a very large player base in Asia (probably larger then in all western nations combined) given that it runs under a non-subscription pay as you go model in Asia, and Asian players seem more into using twitch..... so I can totally see why WoW would be very active at the time specified, and some other MMOs would not.

Edited July 30, 2018 by Andryah

[TUXs]

Asian players seem more into using twitch.....

Huh? What makes you say that? According to this guy, the list is as follows:

According to Quantcast, the top countries seem to be:

• United States

• Germany

• Russia

• UK

• France

Canada's just kinda lumped in with "Rest of World".

...and this is by far the more sensible list rather than just screaming "asians" like you did.

[MandFlurry]

Its 12 a.m. in Germany

 

 

SWTOR: 215 Viewers on Twitch

 

WOW: 58112 Viewers on Twitch

 

This reflects on the Population on our 5 Servers.

 

This are the consequences of:

 

3 Years no new Content

3 Years of no new explorable Planet

KOTFE/KOTET (Fail) Story

Galactic Command (aka Thrill of the Hunt)

Problems with the new Conquest System

Many other smaller Problems..........

 

We discussed the Population Problems

We discussed the dead Forums Threads Compared to 3+ Years back

 

And yet i watched Twitch

 

I have Tears in my Eyes what EA and BW done to this Wonderfull Game called SWTOR

 

And please dont tell me we have Summer!

 

Never Ever, compare Swtor to that junk called WoW. I hate that stupid damned game, that has absolutely Nothing to do with this game. If you like/ love Wow so much, then why are you not playing that other game, no one is making you play this game.

Edited July 30, 2018 by MandFlurry

[Manjaca]

Huh? What makes you say that? According to this guy, the list is as follows:

...and this is by far the more sensible list rather than just screaming "asians" like you did.

 

Thank you so Much for this Information.

 

This is example that Andyah often tells wrong things and try to Insult People with other opinions.

 

But when Andryah tells us Servers are not dying we must Trust this.

[Manjaca]

Never Ever, compare Swtor to that junk called WoW. I hate that stupid damned game, that has absolutely Nothing to do with this game. If you like/ love Wow so much, then why are you not playing that other game, no one is making you play this game.

 

Why so Aggressive? Why so full of Hate?

 

When i read your Comment, its like you threaten me because i compared this two MMOs. Never Ever do This!

I compare how much i want about SWTOR.

If you hate WOW, Ok its good for you. Then dont make a comment. I think this is better for you. Less stress for you.

 

No one is interested in your personal Problems with WOW or SWTOR or others Games.

 

I Like SWTOR much more than other MMOs. But the state of the Game scary me and other Players. After 6+ years of non-stop playing (subscribing) my first MMO (SWTOR) i think like many other Players about a new MMO. But the love to SWTOR hold me/us in the Game!

So much active Players leave an are leaving the Game. And you talk about your personal Hate.

Edited July 30, 2018 by Manjaca

[kodrac]

It's funny. ESO players make the same complaint on their forum too. Seems like it's never enough for some people.

[Andryah]

Thank you so Much for this Information.

 

This is example that Andyah often tells wrong things and try to Insult People with other opinions.

 

But when Andryah tells us Servers are not dying we must Trust this.

 

From the same source that you quoted from Tux :

 

Edit 2: Apparently Afreeca TV is one of the major gaming streams in South Korea--I was wondering about Twitch alternatives in China & South Korea--with 5% of its live content devoted to "eating room" channels. One chick makes $9k a month on donations for a show during which she eats insane amounts of food. (Then again, she's also spending $3k a month on food for the show and god knows how many hours in the gym to keep her figure. I'm jealous.)

It's also worth noting why Germany tops the list quoted ---> they apparently are not allowed to use youtube. You being from Germany (apparently) this is relevant I think. Seriously.... that thread is a good discussion on player streaming... but you have to read the entire topic.. not cherry pick for bullets for your internet pew-pew. You really should read the entire reddit thread TUX linked if you actually want to understand context... rather then just jumping on his sound bite. If you want to use streaming as some sort of player activity metric for an MMO (a mistake in my view) then at least be fair about it and admit that MMO players use things other than twitch to stream.

 

As an Asian myself, with family still in Asia as well ... I can assure you Twitch and similar livestreaming are HUGE in Asia. The Twitch equivalents are actually much more popular.... as are their own localized versions of social media.... simply because they are not censored or blocked like western apps are. It's all about bragging rights and showing off to others in order to have the best "Face". And Twitch is not the biggest in Asia, just the biggest with the gamer crowd there.

 

As for your hate rhetoric directed at me in multiple posts in this thread.... LMAO Seriously?

Edited July 31, 2018 by Andryah

[Andryah]

Why so Aggressive? Why so full of Hate?

 

When i read your Comment, its like you threaten me because i compared this two MMOs. Never Ever do This!

I compare how much i want about SWTOR.

If you hate WOW, Ok its good for you. Then dont make a comment. I think this is better for you. Less stress for you.

 

No one is interested in your personal Problems with WOW or SWTOR or others Games.

 

I Like SWTOR much more than other MMOs. But the state of the Game scary me and other Players. After 6+ years of non-stop playing (subscribing) my first MMO (SWTOR) i think like many other Players about a new MMO. But the love to SWTOR hold me/us in the Game!

So much active Players leave an are leaving the Game. And you talk about your personal Hate.

 

So much irony.. all in one post.

 

And since you chose to make it personal in this thread about me...... let me offer you a quid pro quo.... Really... how scary exactly? Scared of an MMO...... that's a new one, but have fun with that I guess. But let's give you the benefit of the doubt.. since your grammar makes it appear that English is not your native tongue and your OP makes it pretty clear you are in Germany .... perhaps you meant something other than the word "scary" Surprising though, because I sincerely do not believe Germans, in general, to be scared of anything.

Edited July 31, 2018 by Andryah

[Damask_Rose]

About 3 or 4 years ago, while my husband was still maintaining an online presence, I tried to talk him into playing more SWtOR with me by offering to stream with him. When he took breaks from making tutorials or doing his more serious streams, he would do some game streams. He turned me down because not enough people watched SWtOR streams to bother with. So to use Twitch and as population indicator, we should compare the past to the present since SWtOR has never had much of a Twitch presence. My memory of 3 or 4 years ago isn't good enough for me to compare the numbers. Perhaps someone like Snave could chime in with somer figures?

 

Anyway, a lot of factors are involved with how popular a game is on Twitch, above and beyond how big the playing population is. The big streamers have their own audiences who move with them when they hop games. Smaller streamers gravitate towards games that already have high viewership or they hop on new games in the hope of gaining an audience. Blizzard games are always popular. Pvp games lend them selves to more engaging streams.

 

Now, I'm not arguing that SWtOR's population isn't dwindling, because I certainly think it is, I just don't think looking at Twitch viewership is a reliable way to gauge a game's population.

[Andryah]

Now, I'm not arguing that SWtOR's population isn't dwindling, because I certainly think it is, I just don't think looking at Twitch viewership is a reliable way to gauge a game's population.

 

^^ Pretty well sums up the discussion topic, in my view.

Edited July 30, 2018 by Andryah

[Andryah]

I dont expects that the whole World Play and Watch Streams in the German Time Zone. I never said this. The German Time Zone is nearly the same like French/English/Russian (Europe). Alle Europeans have nearly the same Prime Time. That is a big chunk of Players in the Game.

Yes we can Play on Some days in the N/A EastCost Prime Time. It is not so much different. Do you now this? Or you live Outside the Planet Earth?

 

You clearly missed the very important point about WoW yet used it's twitch activity as your soapbox .....

 

WOW has a huge player base in Asia.. and while Germans are going to sleep around the time you noted (midnight local time, Germany)... Asians are entering active play time in their local timezone. SWTOR on the other hand.... no real presence of a player base in Asia at all.

 

Understand now?

[Manjaca]

You clearly missed the very important point about WoW yet used it's twitch activity as your soapbox .....

 

WOW has a huge player base in Asia.. and while Germans are going to sleep around the time you noted (midnight local time, Germany)... Asians are entering active play time in their local timezone. SWTOR on the other hand.... no real presence of a player base in Asia at all.

 

Understand now?

 

 

When i watched Twitch there was a lot of German/French/Polish Stremers online. Whith hundrets/thousends of viewers. You will tell me all the Asians whatch Germans Streams?

 

So all this Asian Viewers understand German and prefer to watch German Streams over Streams in their native Language or English when they understand English. APAC is Native English Language.

 

Not all Koreans or Chines People understand English.

 

Yes and after Midnight where 2 german SWOR Streamers on. But not much Viewers. Saturdays they Stream much longer then after Midnight.

 

And you think all Germans/Europeans go to Sleep at Midnight. No No No we dont have People who come before Midnight home from the Work. all European Servers no matter wich online Game Close after Midnight.

No we not Play SWTOR after Midnight.

 

But you know it always better.

Edited July 31, 2018 by Manjaca

[Manjaca]

So much irony.. all in one post.

 

And since you chose to make it personal in this thread about me...... let me offer you a quid pro quo.... Really... how scary exactly? Scared of an MMO...... that's a new one, but have fun with that I guess. But let's give you the benefit of the doubt.. since your grammar makes it appear that English is not your native tongue and your OP makes it pretty clear you are in Germany .... perhaps you meant something other than the word "scary" Surprising though, because I sincerely do not believe Germans, in general, to be scared of anything.

 

You make it Personal with your Jokes that i exept that the whole World Plays the Game/Watch Streams in my Time Zone. Scroll up to read your own words. So much to your Irony.

 

Scary/fear/Sad/unhappy. You understand now?

I think the best word is "sad" for the state of the game.

 

Yes i live in Germany like you can read in this Thread.

English is not my native language. German is not my native language. English is my 3. Language. German is my 2 Language.

But Ok make jokes about my bad grammer. It says a lot about your personality.

Editing your Comments dont will help you to look better,

 

Your Words:

"Surprising though, because I sincerely do not believe Germans, in general, to be scared of anything"

 

What a nonsens. And here i stop to talk with you! Possibly you are in Real Life a nice Person. But this is to much.

 

This is my last post to You in this Thread.

[AshenK]

You make it Personal with your Jokes that i exept that the whole World Plays the Game/Watch Streams in my Time Zone. Scroll up to read your own words. So much to your Irony.

 

Scary/fear/Sad/unhappy. You understand now?

I think the best word is "sad" for the state of the game.

 

Yes i live in Germany like you can read in this Thread.

English is not my native language. German is not my native language. English is my 3. Language. German is my 2 Language.

But Ok make jokes about my bad grammer. It says a lot about your personality.

Editing your Comments dont will help you to look better,

 

Your Words:

"Surprising though, because I sincerely do not believe Germans, in general, to be scared of anything"

 

What a nonsens. And here i stop to talk with you! Possibly you are in Real Life a nice Person. But this is to much.

 

This is my last post to You in this Thread.

No not sad man... Dying is the word when talking about TOR.

 

And you summed it up so well. Story isn't what people want people want content like raids, pvp and dungeons. That's why WoW and FFXIV are just lightyears ahead of everyone else.

[Mutiny]

Khaleg,

 

I understand statistics quite well. The issue we are raising is that for a story driven MMORPG, which doesn't have a competitive e-sport PvP aspect to it, the numbers are not surprising.

 

I have no particular desire to watch someone on Twitch romance Theron Shan.

 

Dasty

 

It's 3am and this made me laugh so loudly I hope I didn't wake anyone.

[Joonbeams]

If there is a criticism of the OP, it's that there was only one data point in time offered - a snapshot. This, for most of these types of analyses, is usually a problem. Also, do we really need another "this game is dying" thread, dressed in sheep's clothing? I don't think so. All that said, the general premise of the OP is a solid as anything else posted here on the subject.

 

The core question is: can one use Twitch viewers, over time, to gauge the popularity of SWTOR relative to other: a) MMOs, b) online games, c) games in general, d) content in general? The answer is unequivocally yes, and anyone who doesn't understand this really, truly doesn't understand one or both of either: a) Twitch, or b) statistics, with much more of the latter being the issue in most of the rebuttals. It really is that simple. That doesn't mean that methodology can't be off (e.g. using only one data point, or tracking data points at erratic, inconsistent times, etc.). But in the end, this is simply a mathematical/statistical question, and as such there is no room for "opinions" here (e.g. "I don't Twitch, therefore..." or "it's summer...but only for SWTOR"). You either understand statistical concepts or you don't.

 

First, a bit about Twitch, since it seems there is a lot of confusion about the platform. It's not simply an e-sports platform. It, more than anything, is a site for game 'streamers'. Here are some generalities:

1. Streamers stream what's popular
   
2. Popular games get streamed (if you think this is the same as above, think a bit harder)
   
3. Popular streamers stream popular games
   
4. Viewers view streams, hence more popular games get more viewers
   
5. Less popular games streamed by popular streamers get more viewers than less-popular games that aren't
   
6. Old, non-updated games get streamed (and therefore viewed) less than old, regularly updated games
   
7. If gaming content isn't streaming on Twitch, given its scale, there is a very real likelihood it's not popular (or it's old/non-updated...and thus not popular )
   

 

In fact, if you look at the hours on the platform, about half are "non e-sports" related. Many people (like me, as one anecdote) look to Twitch to see what people are playing and how/why and don't even care about the sport.

 

Here's another metric that ranks average viewer counts - as in numbers of viewers. You'll see that there are non e-sports games throughout the list (no Man's Sky, WoW, minecraft, etc.). So for those saying that no one wants to see SWTOR romances, etc. on Twitch - as if that's some relevant distinction - just take a look at games like SIMS 4 (1,661,392 Followers · 706 Viewers) which do pretty well on Twitch (compared to SWTOR's 147,665 Followers · 232 Viewers) (note: these are snapshots from tonight 7:40 PT, if you're looking for trends on SIMS see here).

 

Though it should be obvious, it's worth pointing out that games that have new or dynamic content (i.e. games where users can expect to see a different gameplay than what they've seen before) tend to do better on Twitch than ones where the content has become stale. So it shouldn't be surprising that SWTOR is seeing low Twitch viewership atm. And I'd expect that to increase as new stuff gets released. This was the gist of the OP, and as far as hypotheses go (seeing as we weren't given enough data points, I wouldn't call it a conclusion outright, though I provided plenty more support), it's as solid as any others. In fact, it's likely better than most other metrics...

[Jdast]

Joonbeams,

 

This is the beauty of social science, something I feel you are pretty well-versed in (so am I). I read what you wrote, I went to the Websites you provided and analyzed the data.

 

I arrived at precisely the opposite conclusion based on the data you provided.

 

The mistake you make is conflating ranking in hours with total hours watched. The data you provide yourself OVERWHELMINGLY supports the contention that games pitting competitors against each other dominate the field. Every one of your links shows that PvP games dominate. That some of those hours are watched in a non-e-sport format is irrelevant. For Heroes of the Storm, for example, there is no non-PvP format outside of the training sessions.

 

Games like Sims and Minecraft may be relevant, but those are games that are forms of artistic expression -- i.e. -- non-comparable. The third link you provide even emphasizes this point.

 

Dasty

Edited July 31, 2018 by Jdast

[Joonbeams]

Joonbeams,

 

This is the beauty of social science, something I feel you are pretty well-versed in (so am I). I read what you wrote, I went to the Websites you provided and analyzed the data.

 

I arrived at precisely the opposite conclusion based on the data you provided.

 

The mistake you make is conflating ranking in hours with total hours watched. The data you provide yourself OVERWHELMINGLY supports the contention that games pitting competitors against each other dominate the field. Every one of your links shows that PvP games dominate. That some of those hours are watched in a non-e-sport format is irrelevant.

 

Sims and Minecraft may be relevant, but those are games that are forms of artistic expression -- i.e. -- non-comparable.

 

Dasty

 

I encourage others to read the same links in my OP, and reach their own conclusions. Because, the above -- with all due respect to Dasty (who I really do respect:)) -- is inaccurate and misses the point. Also, I really don't think you know much about Twitch and it only makes your responses here harder to address (it's like they're "not even wrong"). About half the hours of the top games are non "e-sports" - I just want to make this clear so others aren't confused. For example, I will watch streams just to see what a game is about, or how to conquer a level. If there was someone who streamed good decorating ideas for SHs here, I'd certainly be a viewer - like, e.g., what are the coolest new decos. This, is just a small example of how ppl use Twitch.

 

First, on missing the point. The issue isn't that Twitch largely focuses on "PvP" games or not. Of course it does (which is why 1/2 of hours are e-sports related as I said up front). The point is that a lot of streams aren't e-sports and a lot of the hours there have nothing at all to do with PvP whatsoever. What this means is that sometimes ppl are watching the "PvP" streams simply to L2P or because they enjoy the streamer, or any other number of reasons (which is why trying to carve out SWTOR as being "un-Twitchable" is really bizarre:p). But the bigger point is that if you just looked at games that have no PvP at all and compared only those to eachother and to SWTOR...(hopefully the conclusion follows).

 

I never "conflated" anything. The point is that often on Twitch people aren't watching any PvP competition at all (again, I don't even mean official "e-sports" hours, but general "PvP", which is also why I showed many other games that have no competitive components at all and have decent viewership).

 

On the inaccuracy point, you dismissively contend that SIMs and Minecraft are about "artistic expression" and whatnot, as if that somehow makes them incomparable to SWTOR. Again, besides missing the point, this is pretty inaccurate. These kinds of games, WoW too, have elements that viewers would watch that are 'strategic' (e.g. how to down a boss, or where to find mats, how to farm, etc.) and so in these ways, at least, are comparable to SWTOR. But SWTOR also has a large "artistic expression" gameplay aspect too. Still, even taking TESO, FF, WoW and comparing those, you'll see it's not really close. And it's not because people are coming to those games just to watch PvP sporting events - that's just not what's happening, as I've shown.

 

The fundamental reason why SWTOR isn't streamed more (and thus has fewer viewers) is because generally it has a smaller population than the other games it's being compared to. It almost defies common sense to suggest otw. Now, the reason it has a smaller pop is widely debated. But in general, on Twitch, games that don't update regularly tend to fall of streams and viewership because ppl get tired of seeing the same things over and over...

[Jdast]

Agreed that people should go and look at the data for themselves.

 

For the top 10 games you list, I'll admit I don't know anything about No Man's Sky, the #10 entry, but WoW is the only one of those games that has a non-PvP / competitive aspect to it. And it does have a huge PvP / esport community.

 

The independent variable that is relevant here is "competition." Whether it is formal e-sport or not, there is no meaningful way to play to League of Legends that doesn't involve you playing against another team (even if it is AI).

 

The one link you provide showing ESO (arguably the most comparable game) on top for streamers is arguably relevant (though it still #51), but that would show the ESO playerbase is about 10x that of SWTOR, which sounds about right given my anecdotal impressions playing both games regularly. Having only some 1900 viewers, though, isn't terribly reliable in terms of statistical significance.

 

I actually found the third link you provided, about what makes a twitch stream successful, to be the most interesting. It makes it very clear how the structure of this game doesn't lend itself to a streaming format particularly well. That was the basis for my SIMS and Minecraft comment -- I take your point on Stronghold visitations -- but that's a bit of a stretch for me.

 

Sure, one can establish time-series variation (which would be relevant) and that would probably show the number of streamers has gone down.

 

My broader point is that the dropoff from #1 to #51 (in this case ESO) is so significant, that the numbers for purposes of analysis become statistically insignificant. By way of real world example (which I know are fraught with peril), think about this way. In the 2012 U.S.presidential election, technically Roseanne Barr came in sixth place. In the broader political context, though, she was irrelevant. Arguing about whether ESO has 1900 avg. viewers vs. SWTOR's 200 is pretty meaningless in the Twitch context when the top 10 completely dominate and make up some 95% of the viewers.

 

In any case, you made me think and they were good reads. I think we're still going to agree to disagree, though!

 

Hugs and all good,

 

Dasty

 

P.S. Edit: Ultimately, though, absent new content I think we can all agree the player base will diminish.

Edited July 31, 2018 by Jdast

[Joonbeams]

Dasty,

 

Just as another point of reference, I've posted the Skyrim numbers. This game was released about the same time as SWTOR. If you want to see an RPG without PvP that's quite old, and see how it does on Twitch (and compare to the SWTOR numbers posted), here you go:

 

Tltc (too lazy to click): For the past week: avg viewers - 1,149, peak viewers - 7,086, avg live channels -114. 89th most watched, 39th most streamed. SWTOR numbers are too low to track (i.e. not top 250)...

Edited July 31, 2018 by Joonbeams

[Joonbeams]

Agreed that people should go and look at the data for themselves.

...

 

In any case, you made me think and they were good reads. I think we're still going to agree to disagree, though!

 

Hugs and all good,

 

Dasty

 

P.S. Edit: Ultimately, though, absent new content I think we can all agree the player base will diminish.

 

Agree with the post script, which is I think the main point of the OP.

 

Thanks for the civil and fair exchange! Always a pleasure Dasty..

[merovejec]

People here just don't get even the very basics of statistics. That is sad. What do they teach in schools nowadays? Creative free dance? :-)

 

lol I guess the others already said it but yeah, you cant really compare "those" statistics. I mean what does swtor have? The best part of the game is probably the leveling and story (1-50 story), who would watch that? You can go to youtube and watch the cutscenes of every single story!

 

So ok, if you wanna play it that way, find a youtuber who posted all swtor class stories for example and put together the statistic of how many views those videos had! WoW has PVP, progression, competition in general, you cannot compare that to swtor.

[merovejec]

He turned me down because not enough people watched SWtOR streams to bother with. So to use Twitch and as population indicator, we should compare the past to the present since SWtOR has never had much of a Twitch presence. My memory of 3 or 4 years ago isn't good enough for me to compare the numbers. Perhaps someone like Snave could chime in with somer figures?

 

Anyway, a lot of factors are involved with how popular a game is on Twitch, above and beyond how big the playing population is. The big streamers have their own audiences who move with them when they hop games. Smaller streamers gravitate towards games that already have high viewership or they hop on new games in the hope of gaining an audience. Blizzard games are always popular. Pvp games lend them selves to more engaging streams.

 

Now, I'm not arguing that SWtOR's population isn't dwindling, because I certainly think it is, I just don't think looking at Twitch viewership is a reliable way to gauge a game's population.

 

 

This is kinda the issue here, I mean we are talking about streamers. Those people have various reasons why they stream. I have seen some famous streamers (at least I think they were) try out swtor and those people had 300-400 viewers at one point, but not cause of Swtor, but because they have a fanbase which watches them play whatever. If you would be a streamer seeking glory you would pic a game people actually watch and thats not swtor.

 

As it was said many swtor streamers stream the story, leveling or any other stuff. We don't see GSF at all, Raiding is also a small % of the streams and the most are PVP. Anyone can stream swtor, even me, but what can you offer the viewers? Not much.

[TUXs]

From the same source that you quoted from Tux :

 

It's also worth noting why Germany tops the list quoted ---> they apparently are not allowed to use youtube. You being from Germany (apparently) this is relevant I think. Seriously.... that thread is a good discussion on player streaming... but you have to read the entire topic.. not cherry pick for bullets for your internet pew-pew. You really should read the entire reddit thread TUX linked if you actually want to understand context... rather then just jumping on his sound bite. If you want to use streaming as some sort of player activity metric for an MMO (a mistake in my view) then at least be fair about it and admit that MMO players use things other than twitch to stream.

 

As an Asian myself, with family still in Asia as well ... I can assure you Twitch and similar livestreaming are HUGE in Asia. The Twitch equivalents are actually much more popular.... as are their own localized versions of social media.... simply because they are not censored or blocked like western apps are. It's all about bragging rights and showing off to others in order to have the best "Face". And Twitch is not the biggest in Asia, just the biggest with the gamer crowd there.

 

As for your hate rhetoric directed at me in multiple posts in this thread.... LMAO Seriously?

The bullet points were all that mattered. You made a claim that isn't true. The bullet points are all that were needed to show you were wrong. Nobody cares what the rest of the reddit thread says.

[Quraswren]

Now, I'm not arguing that SWtOR's population isn't dwindling, because I certainly think it is, I just don't think looking at Twitch viewership is a reliable way to gauge a game's population.

 

Best statement yet.

 

This game has a problem with player retention as a whole. It's very evident. swtor is having trouble getting people to actually stay and play much less getting people to watch it being played.