The Status of SWTOR on Twitch

[snave]

TL-DR: You think I don't understand content consumption; whereas, I think you don't understand how to interpret data.

 

I didn't interpret any data in my post. I made no comment about the status of swtor on twitch, I just answered the questions you had listed. You seem fairly desperate to push an angle that wasn't discussed with me, which is fine, but I'd prefer if you didn't try to make out like I'd been discussing data interpretation.

 

I'm pretty sure I understand content consumption just fine. Indeed, I even discussed the three primary forms / archetypes of content that people like to consume. It really, really isn't that complicated despite the insistence of you and Joon that I (and others) don't get it. I operationalize it -- while you and Joon cast aspersions suggesting that it's above me. With respect, it's not Advanced Euclidean Geometry.

 

No, it's fairly clear you don't understand it at all. Cherry picking the top 5% and then applying that as the criteria for success is disingenuous and really silly.

 

You didn't discuss the primary forms of content people like to consume, you listed some points that cover literally everything. I have no idea how that's a discussion nor do I understand what it has to do with this conversation as all of those things are available in this (and any other) game.

 

Moreover, your post supported my argument. I expressly noted the type of position you are in (vice the first two, e.g., PvP and World Firsts). Specifically, you run a channel where people like to hang out because they like you personally. You have built a community around you, which is actually awesome (that's not sarcasm). Does lack of content impact your channel? Sure, but people still come because they like to just chill in your channel. It's not terribly shocking to hypothesize , though, that with the release of 6.0 your numbers will go up, if only a little bit. And, of course, does BW not sponsoring events a la Blizzard hurt you too? Sure.

 

Every single streamer with any degree of success has a community built. I've tried to think of one that doesn't but I genuinely cannot. My channel is built around PvP, discussion and humour. My channel numbers will rise and fall in line with the interest in the game because the more people who are interested in playing, the more people are likely to seek out that content. Twitch is in no way shape or form an accurate stick to measure the health of a game but it most certainly is a barometer to measure interest in the game. When a new expansion comes out my numbers will go up, the overall number of views in the directory will go up and those "new" viewers may not only be interested in PvP, maybe they're interested in the story and just wanted to ask for some general opinions on the game.

 

Specific events in-game, like expansions for example, greatly increase interest and normally player base. This will obviously increase the number of people who watch streams of that game. For a person looking to use statistics you really are missing the forest for the trees. A game with a very low number of views on twitch or youtube or anything else really will typically have a corresponding player base size.

 

The argument that people are playing the game rather than watch it is completely erroneous. More people playing = more people more likely to be looking for content.

 

But overwhelming statistical evidence has been presented to you and others in this thread about which games are succeeding the most and in which manifestly different genres. You can disagree with our reasoning for why, but it doesn't really matter. Ultimately, there is one inexorable piece of evidence that is impossible to refute -- the data itself. The independent variable in the list (supported by a citation) provided by Andryah is obvious and warrants no further discussion.

 

I'm failing to see the relevance of Andryah's post relative to what we're discussing. Yes, other games of a certain type are the most popular type of content to be consumed. As an aside, IRL is 3rd on that list.

 

The discussion was why is swtor performing badly on twitch and is that a reflection on the population. To make my point clear here - if swtor had 20 million players then it would have substantially more views on Twitch. As the population drops, viewership drops. To say this is an accurate measurement of player activity is a bit of a stretch but there is a correlation between viewer numbers and player numbers and there is a causation between player numbers and viewer numbers.

 

Swtor is performing badly on twitch due to a lack of good streamers, bad community management and bad community building. Swtor performing badly as a game is due to a lack of content and horrible game decisions.

 

Cheers and peace out. I believe we've both made our positions clear.

 

Hugs,

 

Dasty

 

Apparently not.

[snave]

I originally had this in my previous reply but I think it should probably be a separate post. Incoming wall of text.

 

I'll go into this in a bit of detail because maybe someone else will find it interesting. Roughly 2 years ago when I had decided to move back to streaming on Twitch I was making a push to get partnered on the platform. To get partnered you needed to have reached a certain concurrent viewership threshold and give reasons as to why you deserved it.

 

You'll have to forgive me slightly here because I don't have any of the specific numbers saved but I'll give you the overview on how I worked out what my potential peak viewership was. I'm not a statistician and there are probably better ways of doing this but the first thing I did was look at the total number of viewers in the swtor directory per day during the times I streamed. That was what I considered my initial potential pool - we'll call this Pool A. I looked at the total concurrent views the official swtor stream had when they were making large-scale announcements (like the trailer for the new expansion for example), that was my maximum potential pool - we'll call this Pool B.

 

In sales, you'd typically look for a minimum of a 10% conversion rate but it was safe for me to assume that a significant chunk of pool B would simply not consume my content. My channel has the mature flag and I'm pretty abrasive so immediately I had to lower my pool B size because I wasn't going to change the type of content I produce and they simply wouldn't be interested.

 

So how do you draw people from pool B, into pool A and ultimately into your channel? The expansion announcement and release would naturally inflate numbers (which they did, over double what they are now) and being top of the page in terms of views will also naturally give you a bump in numbers because most people will click on the top couple of streams when checking out a game. Please remember here I'm looking to increase my views in addition to maintaining my existing community.

 

Working with fan sites, data miners and podcasts, writing guides and hosting events will allow you to broaden the pull you have from pool B to pool A but what do you do when people who don't normally consume your type of content turn up? When there is new content coming out, or when new content has been released it's actually a bit easier than you'd think to do this. So you might not enjoy PvP, but what if we're discussing the new story release in chat and you can take part with the conversation there? What if I'm playing through new story and you prefer PvP? Keep the humour and discussions rolling and viewers will still be engaged with what's going on regardless of whether or not it's their primary interest - not all, certainly a % will just leave immediately when they see something they don't like but unlike pokemon you can't catch em all here.

 

Thankfully I reached my goal and succeeded but it's clear for me to see as someone who streams on twitch regularly that the numbers will decline when the game becomes stale and people stop leaving. When online guild member numbers are dropping you'll see that reflected across the directory and when they're up you'll see that too. Unfortunately, the only streamer I've seen recently with the quality to be able to grow their channel to a "good" size is Macgeiler and he's recently stopped playing the game. That's not an insult to other streamers, I'm also included in that statement.

 

TLDR - I'd estimate the largest potential views for a swtor only, non pre-existing large streamer would be roughly 300-500. This is due to the game popularity, not the game type. Things like the loot drop mechanic some games employ would inflate numbers but so would holding giveaways multiple times per day. If you only care about raw numbers I'd consider them a great thing, I feel they could be harmful from a community point of view.

[Jdast]

No, it's fairly clear you don't understand it at all. Cherry picking the top 5% and then applying that as the criteria for success is disingenuous and really silly.

 

We really are two ships passing in the night. So to others...This statement here sums up the problem nicely with a pretty pink bow.

 

Some are saying that yours truly and others are focusing on the top 5% to 10%.

 

This is a 100% accurate statement and completely true. The question then is -- why? The answer is incredibly simple -- because the top 5% to 10% encompass the vast, vast majority of ALL viewership. If Mickey Mouse comes in fifth in your local election, which I imagine happens more often than we think, you can say, "Hey Mickey! Grats on cracking the top 5!" But when Mickey has less than .05% of the vote it places his 5th place finish in an entirely different context.

 

Thus, it is incumbent on us to account for variation. This is Social Science 101. Put simply, and here Snave and I agree: Of course every successful streamer has to have some sort of personality aspect to hook viewers in. That is what we call the constant.

 

Instead, we need to focus on variation -- in this case it is clear. As numerous people have stated in this thread. Assuming the constant of interesting personalities, which is a necessary but not sufficient condition for success, we are still less likely to watch SWTOR on Twitch given the inherent nature of the game. I agree with Snave that other variables such as community support, content releases, etc., are relevant. But as a lot of us here have noted, including posts on this very page -- most of the content is now soloable -- which means you betta have one heckuva personality to keep me entertained.

 

Ergo, using it as a surrogate variable to meaningfully measure much about this game is pretty pointless. It's that simple.

 

Dasty

Edited August 23, 2018 by Jdast

[Joonbeams]

Here is the absurd part of this entire thread:

 

Most players actually play the game, not twitch.

 

SWTOR is a very casual game in MMO terms, and as such is not the haven for all the hardcore twitch publishers who frequent MMOs better known for being bleeding edge hard core content providers.

 

....

Twitch is nothing more then an out of context anecdote being peddled here as "evidence". You are free to peddle it, and others are free to drink the Kool-Aid you are peddling.... but it in no way affects the state of the game.

 

 

Honestly, this is nonsense. It's unfair, and it's a real disservice to people here when people who clearly know absolutely nothing about a platform come on here spouting nonsense as if it's fact. There's a reason why I never weigh in on Ops threads and such - I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT THERE. Those of us that care about this game gain no benefit when people bury their heads in the sand and pretending that facts don't exist, or worse, spew untruths and pass them off as if they are facts.

 

Look, the gist of the OP has been totally missed here. You, and others in this camp, consistently mistake facts/evidence (observations about what is actually happening) with the conclusions (the reasons why the facts happened). You are conflating the two, and calling it "peddling" (as if stating facts is some underhanded activity:rolleyes:).

 

 

AND.. it should be obvious to players why Twitch is big with WoW ----> Twitch and Blizzard Entertainment signed a two-year deal in June 2017 to make Twitch be the exclusive streaming broadcaster of select Blizzard eSports championship events, with viewers under Twitch Prime earning special rewards in various Blizzard games. In other words Blizzard uses Twitch as a marketing and promotions vehicle... which is smart on their part. Even though WoW is not directly part of this.. it gets the pull-through anyway.

 

Just look at the name "Twitch" ..... it pretty well embodies the premise of twitch based reactionary esports game play against other players.... everything that SWTOR IS NOT at it's core. It was in fact derived from Justin which was pretty much all about esports even though it did expand through users applying it beyond it's original roots.

 

This is just completely wrong. As you acknowledge, WoW is expressly not part of that deal. EA uses Twitch as a marketing vehicle for its games too. It's like saying because EA and Twitch reached a deal for Madden in 2016 that we should expect to see SWTOR numbers rise as "pull-through". That's flapdoodle. Plus, just look at the twitch stats for 2016, prior to this "deal."

 

And Justin.TV really had nothing at all to do with e-sports when it first started. It was just a camera that Justin Kan used to live stream every aspect of his (then) ordinary daily life. The significance of that was pointed out by Snave and others. A community began to form, and it turns out people are interested in things beyond what everyone originally thought of as "content" and that's evolved into what's now known as Twitch. This community aspect is vital, but somehow it's totally poo-pooed here by people who really don't get the platform.

 

The original observation (a fact) by the OP was the vast, vast disparity in numbers of viewers between WoW and SWTOR.

 

Its 12 a.m. in Germany

 

SWTOR: 215 Viewers on Twitch

 

WOW: 58112 Viewers on Twitch

 

This is a fact. I know we live in an era where meaningless phrases like "alternative facts" have been introduced, but I assure, there is no "alternative fact" here.

 

The OP went on to list a bunch of explanations for this fact:

 

This are the consequences of:

 

3 Years no new Content

3 Years of no new explorable Planet

KOTFE/KOTET (Fail) Story

Galactic Command (aka Thrill of the Hunt)

Problems with the new Conquest System

Many other smaller Problems..........

 

We don't have to agree with the conclusions. I personally find them to be at fairly accurate. But that doesn't mean that people still don't love playing this game, or that the game is dead, or any of that. It's just a simple fact that this game has managed to putter along (largely due to it's mega-IP and amazing core story) for many years with a sub model that is pretty hard to justify as compared to similarly-priced games. I pay because I still love the game, and I personally find it a value -- but many, and increasingly more, do not.

 

All of the people saying "SWTOR doesn't lend itself...", and "no one wants to watch stories," and "Twitch is all PvP" really just are making pathetic attempts to avoid dealing with the facts. The facts are that that is nothing inherent about SWTOR that makes it bad for Twitch. There are still several comparable games that have stronger Twitch communities than this one, even comparing apples to apples. The reason why it's not popular on Twitch, IMO, is basically the same reason why numbers are down, the same reasons why people complain, etc.: tl:dr-this game is very poorly-supported. As such, not enough streamers care about this game, and the devs (especially earlier in the lifecycle) have done almost nothing to promote an enduring community around it here or on other platforms. SWTOR/EA execs have made a number of bad decisions over the years that have removed resources from this game, halted earnest development/retooling, driven people away, etc.

 

But why does this matter at all? Why do I feel so strongly that it's important to be accurate and "eyes-wide-open" about this? A vibrant, even if small, Twitch community would do wonders for this game--wonders. The lack of such a community is a proxy for a number of things wrong with the game, many of which are fixable. I still cling to hopes that the problems I've raised can/will be fixed -- but they cannot be fixed if we just acquiesce and pretend nothing is wrong. I believe that the more data points made available to the devs, the better.

 

I could say so much more, but I've already gone on longer than I cared to.

 

Tl;dr: I can't possibly address all the inaccuracies with this response. But pretending like the poor Twitch numbers have no correlation with the relatively poor performance of this game generally, and pretending that decisions made by EA/BW have no contribution to that is a real disservice to the community...

[TrixxieTriss]

Also is this not the longest forum post ever or what? XD

 

Nah, mine are usually longer

 

And it seems Joonbeans is nearly tied with Snaves,

 

Edit:

Also, it’s a great couple of posts Snave

Edited August 23, 2018 by TrixxieTriss

[TUXs]

Honestly, this is nonsense. It's unfair, and it's a real disservice to people here when people who clearly know absolutely nothing about a platform come on here spouting nonsense as if it's fact. There's a reason why I never weigh in on Ops threads and such - I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT THERE. Those of us that care about this game gain no benefit when people bury their heads in the sand and pretending that facts don't exist, or worse, spew untruths and pass them off as if they are facts.

 

Look, the gist of the OP has been totally missed here. You, and others in this camp, consistently mistake facts/evidence (observations about what is actually happening) with the conclusions (the reasons why the facts happened). You are conflating the two, and calling it "peddling" (as if stating facts is some underhanded activity:rolleyes:).

 

This is just completely wrong. As you acknowledge, WoW is expressly not part of that deal. EA uses Twitch as a marketing vehicle for its games too. It's like saying because EA and Twitch reached a deal for Madden in 2016 that we should expect to see SWTOR numbers rise as "pull-through". That's flapdoodle. Plus, just look at the twitch stats for 2016, prior to this "deal."

 

And Justin.TV really had nothing at all to do with e-sports when it first started. It was just a camera that Justin Kan used to live stream every aspect of his (then) ordinary daily life. The significance of that was pointed out by Snave and others. A community began to form, and it turns out people are interested in things beyond what everyone originally thought of as "content" and that's evolved into what's now known as Twitch. This community aspect is vital, but somehow it's totally poo-pooed here by people who really don't get the platform.

 

The original observation (a fact) by the OP was the vast, vast disparity in numbers of viewers between WoW and SWTOR.

 

This is a fact. I know we live in an era where meaningless phrases like "alternative facts" have been introduced, but I assure, there is no "alternative fact" here.

 

The OP went on to list a bunch of explanations for this fact:

 

We don't have to agree with the conclusions. I personally find them to be at fairly accurate. But that doesn't mean that people still don't love playing this game, or that the game is dead, or any of that. It's just a simple fact that this game has managed to putter along (largely due to it's mega-IP and amazing core story) for many years with a sub model that is pretty hard to justify as compared to similarly-priced games. I pay because I still love the game, and I personally find it a value -- but many, and increasingly more, do not.

 

All of the people saying "SWTOR doesn't lend itself...", and "no one wants to watch stories," and "Twitch is all PvP" really just are making pathetic attempts to avoid dealing with the facts. The facts are that that is nothing inherent about SWTOR that makes it bad for Twitch. There are still several comparable games that have stronger Twitch communities than this one, even comparing apples to apples. The reason why it's not popular on Twitch, IMO, is basically the same reason why numbers are down, the same reasons why people complain, etc.: tl:dr-this game is very poorly-supported. As such, not enough streamers care about this game, and the devs (especially earlier in the lifecycle) have done almost nothing to promote an enduring community around it here or on other platforms. SWTOR/EA execs have made a number of bad decisions over the years that have removed resources from this game, halted earnest development/retooling, driven people away, etc.

 

But why does this matter at all? Why do I feel so strongly that it's important to be accurate and "eyes-wide-open" about this? A vibrant, even if small, Twitch community would do wonders for this game--wonders. The lack of such a community is a proxy for a number of things wrong with the game, many of which are fixable. I still cling to hopes that the problems I've raised can/will be fixed -- but they cannot be fixed if we just acquiesce and pretend nothing is wrong. I believe that the more data points made available to the devs, the better.

 

I could say so much more, but I've already gone on longer than I cared to.

 

Tl;dr: I can't possibly address all the inaccuracies with this response. But pretending like the poor Twitch numbers have no correlation with the relatively poor performance of this game generally, and pretending that decisions made by EA/BW have no contribution to that is a real disservice to the community...

Damn Joon...absolutely brilliant post. I agree with every freaking word of it.

[Andryah]

Honestly, this is nonsense. Yada yada yada....

 

And you missed every single one of my points in your haste to pounce. You are trying way too hard here. And no.. I am not going to restate them and debate them with you because your mind is clearly completely closed on this discussion topic. Your choice to make of course.

 

{Yes.. by all means.. let's use Twitch as the "official" state of the game metric (which is exactly the strawman the OP tried to roll here).}

Edited August 23, 2018 by Andryah

[Jdast]

And you missed every single one of my points in your haste to pounce. You are trying way too hard here. And no.. I am not going to restate them and debate them with you because your mind is completely closed clearly on this discussion topic.

 

{Yes.. by all means.. let's use Twitch as the "official" state of the game metric (which is exactly the strawman the OP tried to roll here).}

 

Damn Andryah...absolutely brilliant post. I agree with every freaking word of it.

 

/snicker

 

Dasty

Edited August 23, 2018 by Jdast

[TUXs]

Damn Andryah...absolutely brilliant post. I agree with every freaking word of it.

 

/snicker

 

Dasty

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery

[Manjaca]

And you missed every single one of my points in your haste to pounce. You are trying way too hard here. And no.. I am not going to restate them and debate them with you because your mind is clearly completely closed on this discussion topic. Your choice to make of course.

 

{Yes.. by all means.. let's use Twitch as the "official" state of the game metric (which is exactly the strawman the OP tried to roll here).}

 

Please can you stop to Insult other people? Because they have a other opinon like you?

 

Do you Need to tell them they have a "completely closed mind"? Is it possible that you have a completely closed mind? It is nearly the same Thing when you done jokes about my English and my Grammer.

 

If you have a other opinion, Nice ist fine. But Not all you said is fact or the truth! And your opinion is not the opinion of all Players. Like mine opinion is not the opinion of all Players.

 

And stop to tell People that they dont enjoy the game. It is like you tell them to stop playing! Like in this Thread:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=126708&page=2

 

So my Suggestion to you is to Play more the Game. And attack less other Forum Users.

[Manjaca]

 

The discussion was why is swtor performing badly on twitch and is that a reflection on the population. To make my point clear here - if swtor had 20 million players then it would have substantially more views on Twitch. As the population drops, viewership drops. To say this is an accurate measurement of player activity is a bit of a stretch but there is a correlation between viewer numbers and player numbers and there is a causation between player numbers and viewer numbers.

 

Swtor is performing badly on twitch due to a lack of good streamers, bad community management and bad community building. Swtor performing badly as a game is due to a lack of content and horrible game decisions.

 

Apparently not.

 

This is a very good Observation of "Snave" And i done the same Observation

 

More Twitch Viewers/Streamers means that a game is more popular. Especially when the game is a multiplayer game. A Popular Game means Money for the Company. And in the normal case more Money means more and better Content for the Game. More/Better Story Content (Story Driven MMO) and Group Content.

 

Less Content = less Players. Bad Content = less Players. Wrong decicions = less Players..........

[Kiesu]

And you missed every single one of my points in your haste to pounce. You are trying way too hard here. And no.. I am not going to restate them and debate them with you because your mind is clearly completely closed on this discussion topic. Your choice to make of course.

 

{Yes.. by all means.. let's use Twitch as the "official" state of the game metric (which is exactly the strawman the OP tried to roll here).}

He replied to all of your points pretty directly. I'm not sure what exactly it is he "missed". If you think he misinterpreted something, you should probably correct him instead of dismissing all of it like you'd know better (and naturally without offering any context to that claim).

Edited August 23, 2018 by Kiesu

[Talon_strikes]

And you missed every single one of my points in your haste to pounce. You are trying way too hard here. And no.. I am not going to restate them and debate them with you because your mind is clearly completely closed on this discussion topic. Your choice to make of course.

 

{Yes.. by all means.. let's use Twitch as the "official" state of the game metric (which is exactly the strawman the OP tried to roll here).}

Cognitive bias

[Damask_Rose]

Comparing any MMO's twitch numbers to the 800 pound gorilla's is pointless and it should be taken out of the equation. WoW is in a league of it's own.

 

-My quick and thoroughly unscientific comparison of SWtOR to other MMOs, it looks to me like SWtOR is middle of the pack. MMOs, as a whole, outside of WoW, are not big draws for streamers or viewers.

 

-SWtOR has never had a strong Twitch presence that I'm aware of. I'm basing this on checking it several years ago, before the 4.0 changes that the OP is blaming low Twitch numbers on.

 

Of course the size of a game's playerbase is going to affect it's Twitch viewership, but that doesn't necessarily mean Twitch is a good metric to track. I'm sure the devs are well aware of their games population trends. If they are concerned about Twitch viewership, they could start tossing some freebies to the streamers to give out to puff up their numbers. I know I could be bribed to sit through a stream for a chance and a Cyber Varactyl...

[Andryah]

Comparing any MMO's twitch numbers to the 800 pound gorilla's is pointless and it should be taken out of the equation. WoW is in a league of it's own.

 

-My quick and thoroughly unscientific comparison of SWtOR to other MMOs, it looks to me like SWtOR is middle of the pack. MMOs, as a whole, outside of WoW, are not big draws for streamers or viewers.

 

-SWtOR has never had a strong Twitch presence that I'm aware of. I'm basing this on checking it several years ago, before the 4.0 changes that the OP is blaming low Twitch numbers on.

 

Of course the size of a game's playerbase is going to affect it's Twitch viewership, but that doesn't necessarily mean Twitch is a good metric to track. I'm sure the devs are well aware of their games population trends. If they are concerned about Twitch viewership, they could start tossing some freebies to the streamers to give out to puff up their numbers. I know I could be bribed to sit through a stream for a chance and a Cyber Varactyl...

 

^^ Exactly.

[Andryah]

So my Suggestion to you is to Play more the Game. And attack less other Forum Users.

 

LOL... ^^ So much irony. Recursive as well.

 

Maybe take your own advice here.

Edited August 23, 2018 by Andryah

[Jdast]

Comparing any MMO's twitch numbers to the 800 pound gorilla's is pointless and it should be taken out of the equation. WoW is in a league of it's own.

 

-My quick and thoroughly unscientific comparison of SWtOR to other MMOs, it looks to me like SWtOR is middle of the pack. MMOs, as a whole, outside of WoW, are not big draws for streamers or viewers.

 

-SWtOR has never had a strong Twitch presence that I'm aware of. I'm basing this on checking it several years ago, before the 4.0 changes that the OP is blaming low Twitch numbers on.

 

Of course the size of a game's playerbase is going to affect it's Twitch viewership, but that doesn't necessarily mean Twitch is a good metric to track. I'm sure the devs are well aware of their games population trends. If they are concerned about Twitch viewership, they could start tossing some freebies to the streamers to give out to puff up their numbers. I know I could be bribed to sit through a stream for a chance and a Cyber Varactyl...

 

Agreed in full. Don't sell yourself short on the "science" part though! Well, more specifically, statistics.

 

Application of the most rudimentary of standard deviation formulae support your argument. The problem here is that I don't think many people understand what standard deviation means, how to apply it properly to the relevant data, and most significantly, why it is important, particularly in this discussion.

 

Dasty

Edited August 23, 2018 by Jdast

[TUXs]

Comparing any MMO's twitch numbers to the 800 pound gorilla's is pointless and it should be taken out of the equation. WoW is in a league of it's own.

 

-My quick and thoroughly unscientific comparison of SWtOR to other MMOs, it looks to me like SWtOR is middle of the pack. MMOs, as a whole, outside of WoW, are not big draws for streamers or viewers.

 

-SWtOR has never had a strong Twitch presence that I'm aware of. I'm basing this on checking it several years ago, before the 4.0 changes that the OP is blaming low Twitch numbers on.

 

Of course the size of a game's playerbase is going to affect it's Twitch viewership, but that doesn't necessarily mean Twitch is a good metric to track. I'm sure the devs are well aware of their games population trends. If they are concerned about Twitch viewership, they could start tossing some freebies to the streamers to give out to puff up their numbers. I know I could be bribed to sit through a stream for a chance and a Cyber Varactyl...

He compared our numbers to more than just W0W on page 1 as well...

 

Here it is:

I Play this Game 6+ Years

 

TESO: 2313 Viewers

Guils Wars 2: 426 Viewers

Final Fantasy Online: 650 Viewers

 

SWTOR: 160 Viewers

 

All this Games recive Regular Updates.........

[Damask_Rose]

He compared our numbers to more than just W0W on page 1 as well...

 

Here it is:

 

Other posters keep bringing up direct comparisons to WoW, even thought the OP didn't.

 

And as I said, it looks to me like SWtOR is in the middle of the pack for MMOs on twitch. Those few are the top MMOs, there are also a number of MMOs with lower numbers than SWtOR.

[Kiesu]

For those of you who like graphs, have a look at this page. Flap open the "Average monthly viewers" for SWTOR box and from the top right corner open "Compare months". Average view counts for the past 3 years tracked for you. (NOTE: months that had 200 viewers or less on average show up as 0 viewers)

 

If you open any other game's graph you'll probably see the graphs being a lot more steady, as they have a steady following of some sort. Swtor doesn't have that at all, it's very inconsistent, and spikes every time a big personality streams the game for a month, and then goes back again to being it's inconsistent low self.

Swtor numbers have also been going down steadily over the past 3+ years it's been tracked. You could argue this is because it's old and viewers have moved to new games- which is no doubt part of the truth.

 

Ironically, another game that never did do very well on twitch was TESO. By the previous argument you'd expect the view counts would have gone just down from there like it does for most games.. But they've been overhauling the game so much over the past few years to make it better and more user and viewer friendly (and bethesda even invested in streaming the game every month themselves), the numbers are actually steadily increasing.

 

What's that? The devs put effort into making the game better and the player numbers and viewership got better and stayed consistent? Surely it's a coincidence!

Bottom line is, swtor has been missing many many opportunities to improve, and their lack of know-how to advertise themselves sure isn't helping to draw more audience in.

 

Lack of maintenance makes any game's desirability decline as any old machine would slowly rust and break to get tossed out and replaced by a new, shinier machine. But if you keep greasing and improving that old rig for years, it will keep serving you for many more years, and even offer a piece of pride for keeping it in shape, and a familiar comfort you've known for years... Tiny traits of your personal history that vanish when swapping to a new, shiny game that you need to forge a new relationship with.

Players are more willing to keep coming back to whatever they enjoyed in the past more often than people give them credit for. All they need is a little love (maintenance), a show of affection (improvement) and the the occasional new twist (dlc) to explore.

Edited August 24, 2018 by Kiesu

[TrixxieTriss]

I’m still trying to grasp the meaning behind making this thread?

[ExarSun]

Ironically, another game that never did do very well on twitch was TESO. By the previous argument you'd expect the view counts would have gone just down from there like it does for most games.. But they've been overhauling the game so much over the past few years to make it better and more user and viewer friendly (and bethesda even invested in streaming the game every month themselves), the numbers are actually steadily increasing.

 

What's that? The devs put effort into making the game better and the player numbers and viewership got better and stayed consistent? Surely it's a coincidence!

Bottom line is, swtor has been missing many many opportunities to improve, and their lack of know-how to advertise themselves sure isn't helping to draw more audience in.

 

.

Yes, that pretty much nails it. Effort...the rind kind of it. Here in the last 2 years everything is lacking, effort - the most Cold hard facts. Looking at the forums, or whats left of them, it seems most people have surrendered or still blame the 4 seasons - Spring, Summer, Autumn and Winter for the game lack of population roflmao.

[TUXs]

What's that? The devs put effort into making the game better and the player numbers and viewership got better and stayed consistent? Surely it's a coincidence!

Bottom line is, swtor has been missing many many opportunities to improve, and their lack of know-how to advertise themselves sure isn't helping to draw more audience in.

 

Lack of maintenance makes any game's desirability decline as any old machine would slowly rust and break to get tossed out and replaced by a new, shinier machine. But if you keep greasing and improving that old rig for years, it will keep serving you for many more years, and even offer a piece of pride for keeping it in shape, and a familiar comfort you've known for years... Tiny traits of your personal history that vanish when swapping to a new, shiny game that you need to forge a new relationship with.

Players are more willing to keep coming back to whatever they enjoyed in the past more often than people give them credit for. All they need is a little love (maintenance), a show of affection (improvement) and the the occasional new twist (dlc) to explore.

I love the phrasing you used

 

I'm curious...do you think this is EA's fault for not giving Bioware more money or is it Bioware's fault for spending that money foolishly?

 

I believe KOTET and KOTFE were two of the worst expansions in any MMO ever - they took away everything that makes an MMO an MMO (group play) and focused on a terrible story that was solo player only - no offense to Charles, he did his part well, it just wasn't a good way to progress the game as an MMO. I don't know who's at fault, but my belief is that it's all on Bioware, not EA.

[Jdast]

For those of you who like graphs, have a look at this page. Flap open the "Average monthly viewers" for SWTOR box and from the top right corner open "Compare months". Average view counts for the past 3 years tracked for you. (NOTE: months that had 200 viewers or less on average show up as 0 viewers)

 

If you open any other game's graph you'll probably see the graphs being a lot more steady, as they have a steady following of some sort. Swtor doesn't have that at all, it's very inconsistent, and spikes every time a big personality streams the game for a month, and then goes back again to being it's inconsistent low self.

Swtor numbers have also been going down steadily over the past 3+ years it's been tracked. You could argue this is because it's old and viewers have moved to new games- which is no doubt part of the truth.

 

Ironically, another game that never did do very well on twitch was TESO. By the previous argument you'd expect the view counts would have gone just down from there like it does for most games.. But they've been overhauling the game so much over the past few years to make it better and more user and viewer friendly (and bethesda even invested in streaming the game every month themselves), the numbers are actually steadily increasing.

 

What's that? The devs put effort into making the game better and the player numbers and viewership got better and stayed consistent? Surely it's a coincidence!

Bottom line is, swtor has been missing many many opportunities to improve, and their lack of know-how to advertise themselves sure isn't helping to draw more audience in.

 

Lack of maintenance makes any game's desirability decline as any old machine would slowly rust and break to get tossed out and replaced by a new, shinier machine. But if you keep greasing and improving that old rig for years, it will keep serving you for many more years, and even offer a piece of pride for keeping it in shape, and a familiar comfort you've known for years... Tiny traits of your personal history that vanish when swapping to a new, shiny game that you need to forge a new relationship with.

Players are more willing to keep coming back to whatever they enjoyed in the past more often than people give them credit for. All they need is a little love (maintenance), a show of affection (improvement) and the the occasional new twist (dlc) to explore.

 

Um, no offense. The data you present in no way supports your argument. In fact, the opposite. I resurrected this thread because there is a dispute about data raised by you and others in a current thread. I was going to let this one go because it was too easy to refute but...

 

Simply looking at the data provided should make it clear that the conclusions you arrive at are nonsensical. Again, it supports the opposite.

 

With that said, if someone / anyone wants me to go in greater detail, dissect the data, and show why Kiesu is wrong, I will fall on the sword and do so.

 

/shrug

 

Dasty

Edited August 31, 2018 by Jdast

[Kiesu]

Dasty

How about just saying it rather than waiting to be asked to say it. kinda pointless spam necro otherwise

 

BTW. The only view peaks this year have been the months with SWTOR dev gameupdate streams. Should tell you something...

 

Average viewers a year

Swtor views 2018 ~2,478 (7 months)

Swtor views 2017 ~5,595

Swtor views 2016 ~11,946

 

TESO views 2018 ~7,438 (7 months)

TESO views 2017 ~7,387

TESO views 2016 ~6,061

Edited August 30, 2018 by Kiesu