Tank Shielding Changes Coming in 5.9.2

[giorgo]

I am so so about these changes.While crit chance has increased significantly over the past few expansions resulting in tanks receiving too much unshielded damage,one could argue that crits may now be more often but they are a lot weaker than they used to be.

 

TTK is an issue nowdays so I would be very careful when it comes to buffing tanks.Despite what some forum posters say,tanks are in a good place right now as far as their survivability goes.Their strength is their dcds and not so much their gear.

 

Bottom line is that this change has to be tested but no more buffs to how their stats work in PvP are required.There are objectives to be captured and sometimes things need to die for it to be done.As of now you new 3 dps,preferably 4,to take down a tank healer combo who are stalling a node in a reasonable amount of time.

Any more buffs to tanks survivability will make stalls the norm in every wz.That's not fun.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

[see below for the moral of the story]

 

To recap -

 

Tanks are too strong, tanks are too weak. Skank tanks are Op, Skanks are not OP, L2P, Mercs and Snipers are fine, Marauders and Operatives need to be nerfed, don't nerf my class but nerf everyone eles. Buff my class and my alt class, nerf everyone's alt class.

 

TTK can only be solved by neutering DCDS, heals have no effect on TTK at all.

DCDS DPS are to strong, but leave my mercs, my sorcs, heals at 1 mill + alone, that's fine, its the classes that heal less that need to be nerfed. Nerf the DCDS of classes with no heals, buff my classes DCDs and increase my healing.

 

Snipers and Operatives healing 700K plus does not increase their survivability at all. The only reason the 'lesser' DPS specs are healing 600-800k is not because it helps them to live longer, they are simply bored and they like the pretty colors the heals made [Happy St. Patrick's Day]

 

This is a ranged meta. No it's not its a melee meta. No it's not its a Skank Tank meta, no it's not, stealth are too strong.

 

Class X,Y,Z are too mobile, takes those away and give those mobility options , all of them to my class.

Buff my class's DPS x10, nerf everyone elses by a factor of 25.

 

Take merc extra lives and Jugg extra lives from them, and give them all to PT, because if Pt's have 4 lives that won't be a problem at all, because heals don't effect survivability or TTK issues.

 

Buff melee, nerf melee, buff Ranged class X but nerf all the others ones. Operatives don't have too many CCs they need more. Nerf Operatives because they are the best 1v1 class in the game and I'm not playing an Operative right now.

 

DPS specs shouldn't have Gaurd but taunting making the other 7 people on the team take 30% less whatever, that's perfectly reasonable for a DPS to do. DPS specs shouldn't have gaurd or taunts, but self healing, off healing, cleansing, raising people from the friggen dead and being able to stay invisible forever, all perfectly reasonable things for a DPS to have. Gaurding 1 person is too strong, healing your team mates for 1 mill +l, that's not strong at all.

 

Tanks DPS is too strong, no it's not it's too weak, tank DPS should be better than DPS specs DPS.

 

Ohh yeah, these tank changes are good, no they aren't they are terrible. Tanks should heal more, healers should heal worse than DPS and Tanks.

 

Now no one needs to read the last 11 pages, they are now caught up to speed.

 

When we should be talking about tanks and skank tanks, somehow it comes back to what it always does, nerf this one, buff that one, that's one too strong, that one's too weak. We know this because none of us have the data, like BW does, that's why we know better.

 

With some notable exceptions, most of what this thread has seen is nothing but personal agendas.

 

For my part, I tend to agree with Yellow, but that is only based on my limited knowledge of tanks, but as he said it, it does seem rather reasonable in theory [theory to me]. Another reason I tend to take stock in what Yellow said, he was the only one who isn't a tank main that didn't obviously have an agenda. [Obviously Kendra, I am not referring to you or tank mains].

 

Nothing wrong with looking out for one's own interests, but Karma remembers people who point at other people while they are looking out for their 'own' interests.

Karma's a *****.

 

# Nerf every other class but mine.

[Syal]

poor dps...

 

its already hard to me to down a tank with a heal behind him... but if now if the tank have its dps improved... i don't et how a good dps will be able to succes face of a heal and a tank couple.

 

stop thinking about tank have to do DPS to finish first in kill board. tank in JCJ is here to complet objectif like wear hutt ball or keep safe a captured zone.

 

ppl who winn because of poor dps on his tank do not understand the purpose of its class in jcj.

 

to me the idea to increase the TANK dps right now is VERY BAD !

Edited June 29, 2018 by Syal

[cybearr]

What if tanks receive a passive that converts their mastery stat into more health and dmg reductions than actual damage bonus , just set the ratio right and you are fine, or implement this kind of change after a certain amount of mastery so you essentially cap their damage and whatever mastery goes beyond a certain amount goes toward health/mitigation

[KendraP]

poor dps...

 

its already hard to me to down a tank with a heal behind him... but if now if the tank have its dps improved... i don't et how a good dps will be able to succes face of a heal and a tank couple.

 

stop thinking about tank have to do DPS to finish first in kill board. tank in JCJ is here to complet objectif like wear hutt ball or keep safe a captured zone.

 

ppl who winn because of poor dps on his tank do not understand the purpose of its class in jcj.

 

to me the idea to increase the TANK dps right now is VERY BAD !

 

assuming they do what they are intending tanks will tend to do LESS dps as they will be running tank gear

[Cherubel]

Easy!

STEP 1

make tanks not able to wear dps gear in PvP

 

STEP 2

 

REMOVE guard from non tank classes!!!!

 

DONE!

 

You are welcome

[giorgo]

assuming they do what they are intending tanks will tend to do LESS dps as they will be running tank gear

 

Since you main a tank and know your stuff: what is the current difference in shield chance and in shield absorb between a skank and a full tank?

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

assuming they do what they are intending tanks will tend to do LESS dps as they will be running tank gear

 

I don't know how viable of an idea this would be, I'm sure you and those more knowledgeable about tanking would know that, but the only think I can think of to make tanks be tanks is to make a shield only functional if the player is in full tanking gear.

 

Now, even from my limited base of knowledge on tanks I can see that wouldn't be workable while leveling, in fact I don't see how it could really be a viable design until cap, because while you are leveling, while you are still gearing up you sometimes have to just make do with what you have on hand for the moment. Of course this could also be jury rigged into bolster on some manner [not actually bolster, but something that only takes effect while in said environment like bolster] so that that is only a requirement in WZs and Arenas at 70.

 

I'm of a mixed mind on it with regard to raiding, because as you and anyone else who was/is a raider DPS is alot more of an issue in Operations than in PVP. You don't have DPS checks on WZs and you don't need to be able to put out as much DPS in a WZ as you do in harder raiding content where insufficient DPS guarantees a wipe. Tanks already having had there DPS nerfed. At the same time, what moron who was doing HM/NiM raiding would think it would be a good idea to skank tank in DP/DF NiM or Revan HM for example. You'd probably be kicked the second that was discovered so at that point that DPS is less important than the abiltity to be able to withstand the kind of punishment as a tank you can only be on the receiving end in that content type. Like any class/spec change you have to consider the effects in both modes of play.

 

Anyways, that's my idea in theory, again, I can't speak to the viability of it's implementation, there may be things I am not aware of that as a tank you would be. Thing is, you have to do something drastic to get rid of skank tanks. If that's not the goal than really there isn't much point in hypothesizing, if it is the goal, free will may be the problem. If you want skank tanks gone, you make it untenable to be one. [can't be a tank without a shield] Anything short of that, is just kinda saying pretty please.

Edited June 29, 2018 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[MuskyBoy]

Will this make sin tanks insanely hard to kill given the shield passives they receive from dark ward?

[AdjeYo]

Since you main a tank and know your stuff: what is the current difference in shield chance and in shield absorb between a skank and a full tank?

 

It depends on the specific class and how exactly you gear, but here's the numbers for my jugg (assuming the aegis assault buff is up (which it should always be, 20 seconds duration on a 12 second cooldown and all)):

Without any shield/absorb rating shield chance is 24% and shield absorption is 23%.

With my pve set (with the bastion/bulwark enhancements, so a bit shy of max shield/absorb) it's 49.77% shield chance and 48.75% shield absorption.

[helpmewin]

Will this make sin tanks insanely hard to kill given the shield passives they receive from dark ward?

 

It will make jug tanks more unkillable. Even in tank gear they can do a lot of DPS and have great potencial burst. They use DPS gear coz tank is useless.

Actually this will not change something in general, mb its good for sin tank and make them not so squishy. Sin and PT will still use mix of DPS/tank gear - hard/soft caps. This change will make Juggies much more stronger.

Edited June 29, 2018 by helpmewin

[Glower]

It will make jug tanks more unkillable. Even in tank gear they can do a lot of DPS and have great potencial burst. They use DPS gear coz tank is useless.

Actually this will not change something in general, mb its good for sin tank and make them not so squishy. Sin and PT will still use mix of DPS/tank gear - hard/soft caps. This change will make Juggies much more stronger.

 

Jugg tank is a defense tank (defense, worst PvP stat ever). PT and Sin are shield/absorption tanks. Yet jugg will benefits more from these changes? What are you talking about...

[VaeVictis]

Assuming Tank stats need changed/buffed why not change Defense to also lower the crit chance of players. So with a 50% crit chance you attack a Tank with 20% Defense you now have a crit chance of 30%. Make it so Defense only does this if you are in a Tank stance.

 

I didn’t crunch numbers to see how powerful it would be but this change wouldn’t affect PvE, would make all Tank stats useful, indirectly buff Shield/Absorb, and allow the strategic use of auto crits by smart DPS.

[Glower]

Assuming Tank stats need changed/buffed why not change Defense to also lower the crit chance of players. So with a 50% crit chance you attack a Tank with 20% Defense you now have a crit chance of 30%. Make it so Defense only does this if you are in a Tank stance.

 

I didn’t crunch numbers to see how powerful it would be but this change wouldn’t affect PvE, would make all Tank stats useful, indirectly buff Shield/Absorb, and allow the strategic use of auto crits by smart DPS.

 

Not sure about crit but it is logical to also somehow buff Defense in PvP, however, with the current pace of SWTOR development, this will take another 2-3 years (i.e. never). Unless they read your comment before it's too late and implement it in 5.9.2.

Edited June 29, 2018 by Glower

[helpmewin]

Jugg tank is a defense tank (defense, worst PvP stat ever). PT and Sin are shield/absorption tanks. Yet jugg will benefits more from these changes? What are you talking about...

 

Sorry i'm talking not about PvE raid boss mitigation and not about PvE min/max. PT was AOE derp tank in 2.0+ times as hybrid with ion cell and then in 3.0+ in tank spec - they will stack power as max as they can. Sin need surge and crit to maximise their burst window with shock+reckl and now auto-crit maul with DPS set bonus.

Juggies benefits more than any1 from tank stats, coz in PvP they used DPS gear only coz tank was useless. They always was tanky with good DMG with da best utilities to defend team.

Edited June 29, 2018 by helpmewin

[alexsamma]

The (real) tanks in dps gear do it because tank gear is currently not useful. This is what the change is trying to fix. As I said earlier it will reduce (real) tank damage because players like me will swap to a mitigation build:

 

This drivel is getting a bit old, real pvp tanks have been using dps gear since launch because they understand two fundamentals:

 

1: Survival comes from intelligent use of dcds

2: Damage is a form of pressure/control.

 

If you prefer to play a mitigation tank with a nerf saber that's fine and no one has a right to tell you how to play, but stop insinuating that tanks who use dps gear and push high damage are not true tanks; as long as a tank guard swaps, taunts, and peels they are a "tank," pumping out solid damage while doing all of the above simply makes them a superior tank.

Edited June 29, 2018 by alexsamma

[VaeVictis]

This drivel is getting a bit old, real pvp tanks have been using dps gear since launch because they understand two fundamentals:

 

1: Survival comes from intelligent use of dcds

2: Damage is a form of pressure/control.

 

If you prefer to play a mitigation tank with a nerf saber that's fine and no one has a right to tell you how to play, but stop insinuating that tanks who use dps gear and push high damage are not true tanks; as long as a tank guard swaps, taunts, and peels they are a "tank," pumping out solid damage while doing all of the above simply makes them a superior tank.

 

heh Bioware wants to adjust WZ’s cause they take too long and increase TTK in the same patch.

[alexsamma]

heh Bioware wants to adjust WZ’s cause they take too long and increase TTK in the same patch.

 

Bioware doesn't understand that true pvp tanks will never opt for full mitigation gear until

 

1: They need the mitigation

2: Mitigation stats offer a higher net benefit over dps stats

 

Trying to address issue 2 before they address issue 1 is pointless and currently (outside of solo ranked) sin and jugg tanks simply don't need mit gear to stay alive.

 

Side note, people will die quicker when the average player learns how to do more dps than can be accomplished by spamming your basic attack the entire warzone,

Edited June 29, 2018 by alexsamma

[Cherryluve]

Let's all be honest here.

 

Tanking would be fine if people knew how to dps. Plain and simple. People expect them to balance a game around crappy players. If all the dps on your team was doing at least 3.5k dps single target, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Healers wouldn't be a problem, premades wouldn't be a problem.

 

I don't care if you trash me but it's the honest truth. I can play my merc and not really know my rotation. If someone asked me my set up I would be "I don't know, I click buttons that light up." Does that make me a good merc? Not in the slightest. Can do I do over 4k dps? I can because this game isn't that complicated (hint push buttons). My 8 yr old played my husbands sage one match and pushed 2 buttons. He was top dps. So unless you are playing with your tongue, I don't know what to tell you.

 

That aside, I think only tanks with tank gear should be able to guard effectively. But juggs/guar dps could have a tank "cooldown" for a limited time or capacity.

Edited June 29, 2018 by Cherryluve

[Kannuki]

I agree with prior posters regarding scaling abilities based on tank stats. Guard is really strong. Taunting is strong. Like most players have noted, it makes no sense to gear for tank gear as dps gear provides more value to your team (via providing non-trivial killing power at very little loss to survivability -- in fact increasing it in a way by potentially ending the fight sooner).

 

And so, this discussion really revolves around what the role of a tank is for people. Here is what a tank means for me:

 

1. Protecting others (Reducing the damage the enemy causes -- via control, taunts and guard).

2. Survivability (Being able to last against the onslaught in order to continue to provide point # 1).

 

Damage on the other hand, shouldn't be my focus. That is what a DPS class is for. Not to say that I should do zero damage -- it should be meaningful, but not over the top. For example, a healer can, assuming they are not under extreme pressure, or if they find an opportunity, throw in some dps to help finish a fight sooner. That extra dps is helpful, but it's not their primary role. I view tanks similarly.

 

The problem is, again, there is nothing stopping you from achieving points 1 and 2, but also getting amazing damage on top of it.

 

As Cherryluve pointed out, in the majority of games, the lack of player skill is a huge problem. For those reasons, guard is a game changer. I've posted about this previously probably over a year ago now I think, regarding guard (and honestly taunts as well) all scaling with tanking stats.

 

In my opinion, dps classes / specs should not be able to guard or taunt period. It gives a huge advantage to those dps classes when in the hands of a player that can actually play their class well. If someone were to choose a tank spec, they should be given all of the tools to perform that role. But if they also get great damage on top of it, for many, that would mean that there is little reason to play DPS.

 

I already see many people playing healers / tanks that honestly shouldn't be. They do it (I'm guessing) because it's easier to have fun since it's harder to be killed. They don't play it because they actually want to fulfill those roles. That is a problem in a team based game, in my opinion. On the flip side, if you can just have DPS specs that can provide almost the same protective value as a tank, it diminishes the need for the true tank to provide his 'services'.

 

There will likely be some number tuning that goes into effect with any type of change of this nature, but my suggestions are:

 

1. Remove taunt / guard from dps specs.

2. Scale defensive cooldowns and defensive abilities (taunt / intercede) based on tanking statistics, at least up to a threshold -- beyond that there can be diminishing returns of some sort.

3. Allow tanks greater survivability with tanking stats that work in pvp.

4. If you gear more for dps, it should pay off, but at a noticeable loss to both survivability AND the ability to protect others as well (via defensive abilities only; control effects should not be affected).

[phalczen]

My suggestion to fix this is to make shield/absorb increase the about of DR your Guard does. Reduce Guard DR by half (25% by default) and allow the rest of the 50% (50% would be max) gained only with a far amount of shield/absorb on your gear.

 

Suppose Player A is guarding player B, and player B is attacked by enemy player C.

 

Guard transfers 50% of the damage player B is taking to player A.

 

However, my question is, is that incoming damage subject to the player A defensive rolls/checks? Meaning, depending on the type of non-critical (on live) damage (weapon, F/T, or I/E) is that attack going to be subject to any of the Dodge/Parry, Shield, or Resist checks?

 

I'm guessing that it doesn't.* But, if it did, then guard would automatically scale to your defensive stats, and naturally be far more effective on tanks than on dps.

 

*EDIT: Although it does appear to be affected by DCD abilities which reduce incoming damage, for example, Force Speed with Phasing Phantasm/One with the Shadows, Energy Shield/Reactive Shield, or Warding Call/Invincible

Edited June 29, 2018 by phalczen

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

This drivel is getting a bit old, real pvp tanks have been using dps gear since launch because they understand two fundamentals:

 

1: Survival comes from intelligent use of dcds

2: Damage is a form of pressure/control.

 

If you prefer to play a mitigation tank with a nerf saber that's fine and no one has a right to tell you how to play, but stop insinuating that tanks who use dps gear and push high damage are not true tanks; as long as a tank guard swaps, taunts, and peels they are a "tank," pumping out solid damage while doing all of the above simply makes them a superior tank.

 

Said the skank tank....

[KendraP]

Since you main a tank and know your stuff: what is the current difference in shield chance and in shield absorb between a skank and a full tank?

 

Oh buddy I shouldve checked this thread earlier today, so much to say..

On this question, requoted for accuracy:

It depends on the specific class and how exactly you gear, but here's the numbers for my jugg (assuming the aegis assault buff is up (which it should always be, 20 seconds duration on a 12 second cooldown and all)):

Without any shield/absorb rating shield chance is 24% and shield absorption is 23%.

With my pve set (with the bastion/bulwark enhancements, so a bit shy of max shield/absorb) it's 49.77% shield chance and 48.75% shield absorption.

 

To my understanding while slight difference remain, all classes end up with ballpark 50% shield/50% absorb with tank gear. The base stat on a shield is 5% shield/20% absorb but it is increased by class abilities, etc.

 

I don't know how viable of an idea this would be, I'm sure you and those more knowledgeable about tanking would know that, but the only think I can think of to make tanks be tanks is to make a shield only functional if the player is in full tanking gear.

 

They can lock me into whatever they want when tank gear has a purpose. FYI though most skanks run shields, they just have dps mods and enhancements.

 

 

It will make jug tanks more unkillable. Even in tank gear they can do a lot of DPS and have great potencial burst. They use DPS gear coz tank is useless.

Actually this will not change something in general, mb its good for sin tank and make them not so squishy. Sin and PT will still use mix of DPS/tank gear - hard/soft caps. This change will make Juggies much more stronger.

 

As someone else said, Guardians are the defense based tank class. Our main stat is the one that is also near the asymptote for PvE, and which is still useless in PvP. So please explain how 5th this changes helps us inordinately more than the others? If we are going to insist on one class being helped more than the others I'd say its shadows as they are far more dependent on absorbing hits.

 

Sorry i'm talking not about PvE raid boss mitigation and not about PvE min/max. PT was AOE derp tank in 2.0+ times as hybrid with ion cell and then in 3.0+ in tank spec - they will stack power as max as they can. Sin need surge and crit to maximise their burst window with shock+reckl and now auto-crit maul with DPS set bonus.

Juggies benefits more than any1 from tank stats, coz in PvP they used DPS gear only coz tank was useless. They always was tanky with good DMG with da best utilities to defend team.

 

I expect tanks will continue to use power mods as defense is still useless. PT tanks will continue to be the best AoE damage tank, but also the squishiest. Given how sin tsnks work, they stand in the position to benefit most from shield working better for pvp. In fact they might even see the least damage nerf as they have damage tied into shielding/absorbing hits.

 

All tanks, not just guardians, have been running dps gear merely because tank gear is useless. At least those of us who understand our ideal role on a team.

 

Assuming Tank stats need changed/buffed why not change Defense to also lower the crit chance of players. So with a 50% crit chance you attack a Tank with 20% Defense you now have a crit chance of 30%. Make it so Defense only does this if you are in a Tank stance.

 

I didn’t crunch numbers to see how powerful it would be but this change wouldn’t affect PvE, would make all Tank stats useful, indirectly buff Shield/Absorb, and allow the strategic use of auto crits by smart DPS.

 

I assume because defense is near the asymptote as well, people are running lethal or lethal b mods for pve too. This change, if effective, will see tanks switch to what is essentially the pve tsnk setup. As an aside I personally would like to see more defense purpose.

 

Bioware doesn't understand that true pvp tanks will never opt for full mitigation gear until

 

1: They need the mitigation

2: Mitigation stats offer a higher net benefit over dps stats

 

Trying to address issue 2 before they address issue 1 is pointless and currently (outside of solo ranked) sin and jugg tanks simply don't need mit gear to stay alive.

 

Side note, people will die quicker when the average player learns how to do more dps than can be accomplished by spamming your basic attack the entire warzone,

 

I am someone who frequently spends much of my time being one of 2 targets of 8 people at mid while my team is off grabbing nodes, etc. It turns into an 8v2-6 situation, where me and my healer buddy are tasked with the job of distracting the opponent enough while not dying to win the match. Anything that helps me stay alive longer is welcome, as I'm not even paying attention to how much damage I do.

 

You answered your own point in paragraph 2. When properly focused 2 dps can kill a tank and healer as proven by arenas. Unfortunately this doesnt happen often. I live for matches where I have to pull some fancy stunts to stay alive. They just dont happen much because the dps quality is not there.

 

Let's all be honest here.

 

Tanking would be fine if people knew how to dps. Plain and simple. People expect them to balance a game around crappy players. If all the dps on your team was doing at least 3.5k dps single target, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Healers wouldn't be a problem, premades wouldn't be a problem.

 

I don't care if you trash me but it's the honest truth. I can play my merc and not really know my rotation. If someone asked me my set up I would be "I don't know, I click buttons that light up." Does that make me a good merc? Not in the slightest. Can do I do over 4k dps? I can because this game isn't that complicated (hint push buttons). My 8 yr old played my husbands sage one match and pushed 2 buttons. He was top dps. So unless you are playing with your tongue, I don't know what to tell you.

 

That aside, I think only tanks with tank gear should be able to guard effectively. But juggs/guar dps could have a tank "cooldown" for a limited time or capacity.

 

Much of your first paragraph is true. The dps quality on average is relatively low, I have had matches where I'm using every trick I have to stay alive and I enjoy those matches most. But they are rare and becoming rarer, at least on SS.

 

On your last paragraph, again, assuming this change does do what I think it will for tank gear they can lock me into it, whatever. I would like to point out however, these hypothetical scenarios:

 

So you're a dpser, but does gear doesnt help you do damage and for whatever reason tank gear helps you stay alive longer. So you run tank gear. Everyone complains and they force you to run dps gear after 6 years, but dont make the dps gear help you, thus effectively neutering your survivability for no benefit.

 

So you're a healer. For whatever dumb reason they decide you need to run accuracy. But they dont make accuracy help you, so you drop alacrity and crit for no benefit.

 

This is what the situation is for tanks without this change and if they lock us into gear. Healers could run accuracy; dps could run tank gear. They dont because it's useless to them in comparison to the benefits they gain by gearing properly.

[AdjeYo]

@Kendra there's some significant differences in shield/absorb amounts on different tanks. We all get the base 5% shield chance and 15% from spec. Juggs get a further 4% to bring it to 24% base. However sins get dark ward (and maybe some others too, too lazy to check). Putting their base at (at least, I'm not sure if there's other buffs) 35%. Often this means they'll gear for a little more absorb. Pt's I'm not sure about their base but they get heat screen from shielding and an absorb buff from heat blast. So they tend to stack a lot of shield.

 

Edit: It's actually 18% from dark ward, so that puts sins at a base of 38%

Edited June 29, 2018 by AdjeYo

[-Bob-]

So i have 1 more class to get to CR300, i was going to try and suffer through pubside and get that on my Mando but since i saw this thread I've decided to go with my PT and Ive decided to run full tank spec with him, something i haven't messed with in at least a few years. Right now it can be a little tough, most likely due to my lack of skill with this class and spec. I'm curious to see the difference this patch makes.