Planned Warzone Changes Part 2

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

I didnt setup the rules of achievement criteria, I just tried to follow them. PVP is not GSF, where you get achievos by simply playing. Even in GSF you dont get them by playing, you do need to focus partially if you really want 100%. Its debateable whether that is "messing up someone elses game".

 

You [used generally, not actually you]] can't blame a player for trying to complete an achievement, they put them in the game for that express purpose knowing full well that there are many MMO players out there who are achievement hounds, you find them in every MMO.

 

As far as 'will it screw up other players', well, that's certainly possible, but I don't think that is an ironclad sin if the purpose of it is to complete an achievement. What's next, don't play uprisings because people quecing for PVP would get faster pops for PVP if those people quecing for uprisings queced for PVP instead? heh

 

Important? Silly? A problem? To who?

Edited June 8, 2018 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[Simplette]

I don't know if anyone posted it yet but just make usage of high-mobility ability reset then ball, make it work the same way as vanishing. Its not cool to play against operatives in huttball. They mitigate all damage with evasion and rolls. If you want to pull him or push you unable to do it as well. So when someone use phase walk, covered escape, mad dash, etc. he should loose the ball. I mean abilities which don't require target to use 'em.

[Iymurra]

Just tossing this out here. I think its been said already but:

 

Operatives are not the only problem class in huttball.

Snipers, Sorcs, Assassins, Mercs, PTs, Juggs, Maras as well as Operatives all have high-mobility cooldowns.

 

While Operatives do have a double-roll & holotraverse. Juggs have Intercede, Charge, & Mad Dash. PTs have Superspeed Hydraulic Overrides. And the other specs all have their own abilities.

 

Baseline, other classes have better resists than Operatives do. Concealment is the only one who gets immunity during rolls. Lethality just gets increased dodge chance and a free infusion afterwards and Medicine doesn't even get that.

 

High Mobility Cooldowns are the problems. Operatives are just ONE of the many classes that are symptomatic of this issue.

 

Edit: returning to topic. I'd like to see Hinder returned with a 15s or 30s timer on the Ball Explosion. Interceptions should be a valid strategy.

Edited June 9, 2018 by Iymurra

[Mycroft-Tarkin]

^ only Operatives get 10 seconds of immunity when they get the ball though. Roll immunity + desync immunity. You literally can't target an Operative for most of the time that they have the ball. When you *can* target them they have Evasion or their 3sec every 10sec immunity on them. They're not broken as a class but in Huttball maps they are because of desync. No other class can get desync-ed as often as Operatives.

 

And they are kinda broken as a class too. 1v1 Concealment always wins against pretty much every other DPS class. Heck good ones can beat Marauders and Assassin's 2v1 if there's some LoS objects available (since those classes don't have self heals at all, compared to 100% uptime on Operative self heals).

Edited June 9, 2018 by Mycroft-Tarkin

[Gingishan]

R.I.P Rollers. GG.

One more thing to do: remove dodge pop on roll and reduce animation by 2 times, then increase the CD to 1 minute. And this Op class become in pair with others. Also take a look on snipers/mercs and fix their OP status to be in pair with the rest. Keep going the good job. Fix PvP no matter what.

[Gingishan]

Just tossing this out here. I think its been said already but:

 

Operatives are not the only problem class in huttball.

Snipers, Sorcs, Assassins, Mercs, PTs, Juggs, Maras as well as Operatives all have high-mobility cooldowns.

 

While Operatives do have a double-roll & holotraverse. Juggs have Intercede, Charge, & Mad Dash. PTs have Superspeed Hydraulic Overrides. And the other specs all have their own abilities.

 

Baseline, other classes have better resists than Operatives do. Concealment is the only one who gets immunity during rolls. Lethality just gets increased dodge chance and a free infusion afterwards and Medicine doesn't even get that.

 

High Mobility Cooldowns are the problems. Operatives are just ONE of the many classes that are symptomatic of this issue.

 

Edit: returning to topic. I'd like to see Hinder returned with a 15s or 30s timer on the Ball Explosion. Interceptions should be a valid strategy.

 

Jugs? LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL. They have the less mobility of all classes.

[Going]

Jugs? LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL. They have the less mobility of all classes.

 

Yet they have some of the best DCD's for regs. You can literally grab the ball, get whitebarred and blade dash to the bottom, wait for someone to get in the ez, and pass. Just as easy as you can on a scoundrel.

[Neulwen]

Define teleports?

 

Leaps yes, but the warriors are still visible and just look like they are running on the spot amd don’t look like they are glitching. You can also target and hit them. You can’t do that with Operatives because they are literally in the floor.

 

Using the table to pull you up in Quesh Ball is another matter. Every class glitches out with that.

No, leaps often look like the leaper falls to a lower level/underground, shaking in all directions, before suddenly appearing at its actual position a few s later. Normal dsync.

 

Teleports: Holotraverse and the assassin equivalent. Though I have only witnessed it dsync on assassins. Ofc, holotraverse is bugged in other ways, only having a chance to tp player to the target.

[Rafiknoll]

I didnt setup the rules of achievement criteria, I just tried to follow them. PVP is not GSF, where you get achievos by simply playing. Even in GSF you dont get them by playing, you do need to focus partially if you really want 100%. Its debateable whether that is "messing up someone elses game".

 

Even if it is against the rules of basic social behaviour and teamplay? Forgive me if I find your priorities disturbing (and ach farmers have no right to answer to that: "it's just a game" ).

As for the "even in GSF" part, only if you are not a good pilot. I got most achievements and can get the rest if I decide to focus on another side of the objective. For example, if I wanted to focus the 100x65% acc I would play razorwire and score 80%+ easily as I have done twice already without truly trying and without abandoning the objective (same match was also 8 min defense, btw). Most of the other aches can come from simply playing to win with different ships. GSF is a good example of how aches should be: you can get them all if you are good at playing to win (on all roles), this is why PVP aches should be changed to work the same way, and not make players ruin games to win them.

 

You [used generally, not actually you]] can't blame a player for trying to complete an achievement, they put them in the game for that express purpose knowing full well that there are many MMO players out there who are achievement hounds, you find them in every MMO.

 

As far as 'will it screw up other players', well, that's certainly possible, but I don't think that is an ironclad sin if the purpose of it is to complete an achievement. What's next, don't play uprisings because people quecing for PVP would get faster pops for PVP if those people quecing for uprisings queced for PVP instead? heh

 

Important? Silly? A problem? To who?

 

First of all let me say that the achievement are exaggerated not because it is intended, but because the devs didn't think things true when designing them. Fact is I don't think a single farmer who got 100% has achieved a tenth of them without cheating in one way or another.

 

As for your second paragraph, there is a great difference between your uprising example and farming during the match. If you got uprising you are not sabotaging your own team, and if you go PVP and farm aches on the expense of the other team (you are actually sometimes "helping" but your friends on the other side or your multiboxed toons are literally wasted spots, and in hypergate they are laso literally scoring for the other team. When it comes to that, this is sabotage, and it is reportable and bannable if you have enough proof and the CSR are not lazy. You can say any of that about simply not queueing PVP for whatever reason.

 

So in order to answer the question "a problem? to who?: to every player unlucky enough to get on the "target" side of ach farmers.

[Neulwen]

R.I.P Rollers. GG.

One more thing to do: remove dodge pop on roll and reduce animation by 2 times, then increase the CD to 1 minute. And this Op class become in pair with others. Also take a look on snipers/mercs and fix their OP status to be in pair with the rest. Keep going the good job. Fix PvP no matter what.

Don't know if troll post, but so many people still complaining about "operatives" (only conc has immunity on roll) being so OP, yet others have already addressed how wrong you are.

 

It's been addressed how you can stop a conc op, it's been mentioned other classes have comparable abilities, and how to play huttball, it's been explained conc op is not the best at getting the ball in mid, and it's been pointed out how a sorc can pull any class up top mid, not only operatives.

 

There are different classes, each with their strengths and weaknesses.

 

Conc ops are strong in huttball, but not OP. Learn to play to your classes' strengths and your enemies' weaknesses. Control mid, and don't call for silly ideas that would destroy a class, or cause a worse class imbalance. Matchmaking is coming soon, so games should be more balanced.

Edited June 9, 2018 by Neulwen

[merovejec]

PVP aches should be changed to work the same way, and not make players ruin games to win them.

 

So far they have never changed and old achievement so I dont see a reason to start now.

[Rafiknoll]

So far they have never changed and old achievement so I dont see a reason to start now.

 

"So far PVP balance was either broken or non-existent so I don't see a reason to start now"

"So far PVP was not cross-faction even if one side wouldn't pop at all so I don't see a reason to start now"

 

Isn't the whole point of this patch to do now things that always made perfect sense but weren't done due to neglect or inefficiency (or priorities or whatever), especially in cases were parts of the community have been discussing them for years?

You gotta do better than that.

[And by the way, they DID change old achievements. Companion achievements got a total overhaul in 4.0. So not only do your facts not support your conclusion, your facts are also not accurate ]

 

Don't worry, the hours you will curse about the time you will feel that was "wasted" farming "unnecessary achievements" is the mere compensation for the time any member who had to suffer your multiboxing on their team felt like someone wasted for them.

Edited June 9, 2018 by Rafiknoll

[TrixxieTriss]

Jugs? LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL. They have the less mobility of all classes.

 

Agreed ^^^

[TrixxieTriss]

85% of the time people say L2P it is actually code for "Please don't take my advantage away".

 

Agreed.

Nobody likes to lose an advantage, but it’s sad when I see the same people attack others when they don’t want to lose their own advantage.

Edited June 10, 2018 by TrixxieTriss

[TrixxieTriss]

Don't know if troll post, but so many people still complaining about "operatives" (only conc has immunity on roll) being so OP, yet others have already addressed how wrong you are.

 

It's been addressed how you can stop a conc op, it's been mentioned other classes have comparable abilities, and how to play huttball, it's been explained conc op is not the best at getting the ball in mid, and it's been pointed out how a sorc can pull any class up top mid, not only operatives.

 

There are different classes, each with their strengths and weaknesses.

 

Conc ops are strong in huttball, but not OP. Learn to play to your classes' strengths and your enemies' weaknesses. Control mid, and don't call for silly ideas that would destroy a class, or cause a worse class imbalance. Matchmaking is coming soon, so games should be more balanced.

 

I agree. All classes have a role to play in HB and bring certain strengths to it,

Operatives aren’t OP as such, it’s the bugs and Dysnc that cause a truck load of the problems associated with them. But Operatives have always been strong at running the ball. It’s one of their key strengths in HB and under the current meta, they can often score by themselves most of the times because they get the benefits of their own class abilities and then some special help from bugs and dysnc.

 

I think before Bioware go messing around with class abilities or mechanics in the current HB maps, they need to fix the bugs and dysnc, then we really see how it’s supposed to work.

[Gingishan]

I agree. All classes have a role to play in HB and bring certain strengths to it,

Operatives aren’t OP as such, it’s the bugs and Dysnc that cause a truck load of the problems associated with them. But Operatives have always been strong at running the ball. It’s one of their key strengths in HB and under the current meta, they can often score by themselves most of the times because they get the benefits of their own class abilities and then some special help from bugs and dysnc.

 

I think before Bioware go messing around with class abilities or mechanics in the current HB maps, they need to fix the bugs and dysnc, then we really see how it’s supposed to work.

 

They must put roll under minimum 1 minute CD, reduce the animation speed by 2 times, remove dodge pop when using the ability and they are fixed, since they allrdy will fix dysnc. If it is too much will see. Ideea is to reduce their mobility by a fair amount.

[KendraP]

Has this really devolved into a omg concealment opers are too good at huttball so #nerfoperatives thread?

[Rafiknoll]

Has this really devolved into a omg concealment opers are too good at huttball so #nerfoperatives thread?

 

The second extension to the Godwin law is that a conversation on the PVP forums will always devolve eventually to a general NERF thread, even if the original topic(s) made total sense...

[Elusive_Thing]

They must put roll under minimum 1 minute CD, reduce the animation speed by 2 times, remove dodge pop when using the ability and they are fixed, since they allrdy will fix dysnc. If it is too much will see. Ideea is to reduce their mobility by a fair amount.

So give them a vastly, VASTLY inferior Force Speed? Nice trolling.

[Mournblood]

Has this really devolved into a omg concealment opers are too good at huttball so #nerfoperatives thread?

 

Nobody is asking for Operative nerfs, or at least I'm not. But in the context of improving WZs to be more fair and inclusive, and the specific intention of Bioware to make HB/QB more team-oriented, the advantages of Operative/Scoundrel in those WZ formats should be part of that discussion. Since they canned the "Hinder" mechanic, and given how fairly easy it is to score on an Operative/Scoundrel in under 30 seconds, that class in particular undermines their goal of promoting more team involvement by forcing passes every 45 seconds. And yes, other classes can score relatively quickly if left unchallenged, but in every case they are also easier to stop than a Concealment Operative.

 

I think a good alternative here would be to add more abilities to the list of abilities that cause you to drop the ball, like Force bubble and Phase Walk do. We'll see what, if anything, Bioware comes up with as a viable substitute to Hinder.

Edited June 11, 2018 by Mournblood

[TrixxieTriss]

Characters who hack their way into places they shouldn’t be, such as outside the arena or in the ground, will die.

Currently, acid causes characters to take 10% of their max health in damage every second, prevents stealth and all healing.

Acid will now work as follows:

Characters will take 1% of their max health in damage every second and reduce all healing done/received by 2% per stack.

Characters affected by acid will begin with one stack and gain one stack per second.

Acid will still inhibit stealth.

 

 

^^^^^^^^^^

 

 

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!

 

Don’t get your hopes yet, that anything significant will be done.

 

Warning, Wall of text to explain why

 

 

Just wanted to share this part of the interview with Charles Boyd and Eric Musco on the PVP component in the interview. Special thanks to Lady Admiral for the write up. For a full bullet point spread on all topics convered by LadyAdmiral, that can be found here - http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=9610973#post9610973

 

* Shouldn't players who exploit be kicked out of a warzone instead of just killed? The hope is that the "slap on the wrist" of character death will remind them to be a good player and to play like a good player. You also wind up with a WZ with 1 less person and shorts the team, so hopefully a simple death will make a better match for everyone . By being slightly less heavy handed, it is also better for players who somehow accidentally enter the exploit areas won't receive a harsh penalty (devs are calling this "death volumes" I believe) - they don't want to throw out non-cheating characters by accident, "Err on the side of kindness"

* With these new anti-hacking measures the devs can see when a player repeatedly dies and not by being killed by other players... let's flag them for investigation. (This already happens, but this is a better way to find them quickly)

 

I have to say I am very disappointed about this and angry about this. .... will remind them to be a good player and to play like a good player. What world do you live in? One with rainbows and fairy tales? if they were good players they wouldn’t try to do it in the first place. What is this, kindergarten?

 

Bioware have had this softly softly approach for 6 years and it’s had zero affect. This is just more of the same attitude towards cheaters and shows they don’t take the issue seriously.

We all know that hackers will find a work around for all of these within a month and we’ll be back at square one because there are no real deterrents.

This was a real blow the guts when I read it and deflated all of my optimism for the coming roadmap.

I now have a very bad feeling about what content and changes they will end up delivering in the roadmap.

 

Mark my words, hackers, cheats, exploiters will be back or will never leave after these “Bioware fixes” because it’s a weak response and only incentivises them to keep trying. It even stinks of people inside or close to Bioware being involved in cheating or Bioware being toooooo greedy or concerned they may lose the subs of people who cheat. Wake up Bioware, they use F2P accounts to do the testing and then troll on paid ones.

 

Honestly, what does it matter if you try and cheat if nothing is really done to stop you.

 

Slaps on the wrist are like modern day parenting and political correctness gone mad. Kids these days already have no respect for authority and this just paints a target on swtor’s back for the non player hackers to find work arounds like they did in the old days of swtor when Bioware would fix the holes or broken code and 2-4 weeks later the “same looking hacks or exploits” would be back and we wouldn’t even see one person banned.

 

Honestly, I dont think one person would care if their team lost a player because the system kicked them for cheating. People would applaud and say good riddance. Being worrying that a team might be left short because a player was kicked for cheating is ridiculous.

It would be better to kick the player and have something pop up in chat that says “exploit detected, player x removed”.

Some competive shooter and pvp games do this already. It’s not something new to gamers.

And let’s face it, so many people rage quit these days that we wouldn’t even notice one more person being kicked for cheating.

I have to say this is the weakest reason I’ve ever heard for not enforcing tough anit cheat policy in matches. It also opens the game up for exploiters to just go in and die in Ranked and still get rewards for doing so. Well done Bioware.

 

Even announcing this stupid policy emboldens them to try. Whoever thought releasing this information was a good idea needs a slap on the back of the head with a sharp gamorrean axe.

No sane company official releases information like this. Its basic security 101 to not tell hackers what your active backend prevention and detection measures are.

Any deterrent they announce now will have lost its bite.

You may as well give them free subs for being cleaver enough to find ways around your fixes or your mistakes. Oh, that’s right, they are mostly free to play accounts anyway

 

What they should have done is kept this secret.

Announce really harsh penalties as a deterrent.

Say they were going to name and shame ledgitmate hacker’s character names so we could all see them.

“Then” or “if” they wanted to use this softly softly approach in the game, they could have. It still would have been a bad decision as far as I’m concerned, but atleast they would have a public deterrent in place to scare of potential kiddy hackers and make it seem unappealing to non player hackers because it would be a waste of their time.

 

Once again, Bioware shoots themsleves in the foot. Honestly they should hire a risk assessment professional to look at all major policy decisions like this announcement and things like server mergers, server relocations or anything that could have an impact on player retention or have an affect on the integrity of the game.

 

At this point they may as well announce a bounty program for hackers and then pay them for showing how they do it.

 

As soon as hackers reappear in this game after these changes, I think people should record and start posting them on the forum and all other social media. I’m past caring and if they are hypocritical and ban people for doing part of their job for them, I will repost it and I don’t care if I get banned too. All it would show is Bioware care more about the hacker’s feelings or privacy than they do about stopping them.

 

I really can’t express enough how angry and disappointed I am with this decision :mad:. I had such high hopes after 6 years that Bioware we’re finally going to do something significant about cheating.

 

[TrixxieTriss]

The second extension to the Godwin law is that a conversation on the PVP forums will always devolve eventually to a general NERF thread, even if the original topic(s) made total sense...

 

And #nerfoperatives is always a favourite

[merovejec]

"So far PVP balance was either broken or non-existent so I don't see a reason to start now"

"So far PVP was not cross-faction even if one side wouldn't pop at all so I don't see a reason to start now"

 

Isn't the whole point of this patch to do now things that always made perfect sense but weren't done due to neglect or inefficiency (or priorities or whatever), especially in cases were parts of the community have been discussing them for years?

You gotta do better than that.

[And by the way, they DID change old achievements. Companion achievements got a total overhaul in 4.0. So not only do your facts not support your conclusion, your facts are also not accurate ]

 

Don't worry, the hours you will curse about the time you will feel that was "wasted" farming "unnecessary achievements" is the mere compensation for the time any member who had to suffer your multiboxing on their team felt like someone wasted for them.

 

Well, comparing PVP achievements and companion achievements.......apples with pears. The system behind PVP achievements is totally different. Ok, lets at least assume they would change, in such a case they would have to at least make it like EV/KP NiM Archived achievos, so I am not afraid of anything. About the "time spent" on those achievos, you would be surprised how fast it goes I wouldnt regret a thing.

[Gingishan]

So give them a vastly, VASTLY inferior Force Speed? Nice trolling.

 

My point is not your point. This is called Democracy!

[Gingishan]

Don't know if troll post, but so many people still complaining about "operatives" (only conc has immunity on roll) being so OP, yet others have already addressed how wrong you are.

 

It's been addressed how you can stop a conc op, it's been mentioned other classes have comparable abilities, and how to play huttball, it's been explained conc op is not the best at getting the ball in mid, and it's been pointed out how a sorc can pull any class up top mid, not only operatives.

 

There are different classes, each with their strengths and weaknesses.

 

Conc ops are strong in huttball, but not OP. Learn to play to your classes' strengths and your enemies' weaknesses. Control mid, and don't call for silly ideas that would destroy a class, or cause a worse class imbalance. Matchmaking is coming soon, so games should be more balanced.

 

I have both oper/scoundrel and i know how OP they are in Hutball, since i can score on mines 4/6 goals alone. Dysnc, bugs, countermeasures, twice roll, holotraverse, dodge make us imune for enough time to cap/score asap. Ya, l2p. U make me laugh. PS: I agree same problem comes to sniper/guner, another class that need a very careful atention and a fair fix, because atm snipers are fotm among with mercs and opers. I am simply tired and sick to see opers wining all 1v1 duels. I want to see another class doing that or more then one class.