No, I am not teaching your guild how to raid

[Kyrra_T]

I agree in a sense that from a success-oriented goal, yes, KP or EV would be a better avenue to steer a rookie team.

That said, even failure can teach while they learn about tank-swapping, the pile of hot mess of mechanics on any given complicated boss, etc. Failure can also show them, ew, look, walking into an op with 115-rated gear probably leaves us underpowered, hm, maybe there's some things we need to do first.

 

All teachable moments, in the middle of failure. Failure might also be what they need to convince them hm, okay, the guy said try EV first, maybe there's something to that whole it's-not-as-complicated thing.

 

My personally, I'd also be a whole lot more willing to even try to teach TFB if they offered to pay my repair bills. Cause we are gonna die a lot. I wouldn't necessarily take them up on the offer but making the offer itself would go a long way to me thinking they realized we were going to die while they learned.

[ArdeliaAgain]

This thread has been fascinating to watch.

 

If I queue GF as a tank, the only expectation I'm taking on is to tank any Op I might get. Most folks reasonably assume that includes at least enough general knowledge (class, gearing, boss, etc) to be minimally competent doing so.

 

If I can't fulfill that expectation (end up not being able to finish the run, don't know the Op, etc), it's on me to communicate that, so the group can figure out what to do about it (replace me, teach me, whatever).

 

That's it. Exactly zero additional expectations (teaching, etc) are assumed. If anybody has any expectations beyond that, that's on them, not me. I have no responsibility to communicate my inability or unwillingness to meet any of those additional, imposed expectations....again, those invalid expectations are owned by whomever put them on me....if they want me to take them on, they have the burden of communication.

 

That's our baseline.

 

Expectations are a little different for premade runs. Guild leaders (including guild Ops leaders) have different expectations, based on how that guild runs. Non-Guild premade (Fleet PUGs, etc) have expectations based on discussions while building it. But if those discussions don't occur, you default to the above baseline...your responsibility it to do your job, and communicate when you can't.

 

That's what happened here. The OP received no extra communication when joining the guild run to tank. They executed their only resulting expectation: tank it. When they couldn't do so because the group didn't know what they were doing, they communicated it.

 

That's it. Job done. Anything they did after that, so long as it wasn't belittling, is entirely kosher.

 

TLDR: yes, there are a lot of entitled attitudes in this thread. Mostly, that entitlement surrounds wanting the community to assume extra expectations that are favorable to "them" ("them" having a variable definition), but without wanting to actually communicate those expectations.

 

Be an adult. Say what you need, and will/won't do. The OP did. The rest of the raid didnt.

Edited March 9, 2018 by ArdeliaAgain

[olagatonjedi]

Too many expectations from everyone, including, but not limited to the OP. In open participation, hope of expectations is all you should go in with. If you go in with only your expectations, you will more often than not be disappointed. Same with interactions in life.

[Tahana]

Well to be honest I have never once thought that Google/Dulfy etc should be the "first call" for learning content.

 

That should and must always be in game.

 

All The Best

 

Don't ever want an MMO game that is so rock stupid that I don't need to learn something.

[AlienEyeTX]

While I may understand the OP reason for quitting the raid, because of them not knowing the op, I do not think there was a reason for posting it on the forum. It should have been done and over with when the OP removed herself (?) from the operation and not brought to the forums, at least in my opinion.

 

That may be what bothers me the most.

[AlienEyeTX]

Well to be honest I have never once thought that Google/Dulfy etc should be the "first call" for learning content.

 

That should and must always be in game.

 

All The Best

 

Word. It's so annoying that people don't want to try to figure things out on their own anymore.

 

And then they complain when the content is designed to be spoonfed to them.

[cyrusramsey]

The moment that people do not respond to the question whether anyone has not done it before (it is a courtesy, not calling anyone out, it's generally painfully obvious which people don't know what they're doing), that is when they lose any and all sympathy from me. It excludes the possibility of learning (whether by being told or by figuring things out) because that would not require silence on their part, it just means they mean to wing it and hope nobody will notice.

 

I got into ops very late. My first runs were when the lvl55 ones were put on groupfinder, and I didn't even learn the mechanics of EV and KP till 4.0. Whenever I saw a group forming on fleet, I'd start out with asking if I was welcome if I didn't know the operation, and if I got an invite, I'd restate that I'd never done it before when everyone was loaded in, and this resulted in two possible scenarios. Either I would get an explanation of the boss fights as we got to them, or it was a group confident enough to just barge through. I liked the former better than the latter.

 

The thing is, many raiders are very passionate about it and there is a great number of them that absolutely love explaining things. These same people that would take all the time in the world to explain everything, can suddenly get very agitated when they realize their group is trying to wing it and then stays completely silent when asked about it.

 

In that scenario, surely everyone can see that it's not the experienced people that are lacking in manners? A good time can only be had if everyone is on the same page. Either you have the same approach, you adjust to the group, or you pull out, but trying to deceive your group helps absolutely nobody, ever.

Edited March 9, 2018 by cyrusramsey

[lightSaberAddiCt]

That may be what bothers me the most.

 

I dont mind this being brought to general forum chat, at least its not another stupid appreciation thread.

[ArdeliaAgain]

The moment that people do not respond to the question whether anyone has not done it before (it is a courtesy, not calling anyone out, it's generally painfully obvious which people don't know what they're doing), that is when they lose any and all sympathy from me. It excludes the possibility of learning (whether by being told or by figuring things out) because that would not require silence on their part, it just means they mean to wing it and hope nobody will notice.

 

This. I'll go a step further: if you join a content run (Op, FP, whatever), don't know what you're doing, and don't speak up, courtesy and obligation concerns stop. At that moment, you've shifted the burden of your performance to somebody else.

 

Well, mostly....that doesn't excuse anybody from basic "dont be an aggressive toolbag" expectations, but that's universal regardless.

[Ner_idia]

This thread has been fascinating to watch.

 

Yes, it has. It's reminding me why I had an account that started in 2012 and never did a single operation.

[Confusi]

“This thread has been fascinating to watch”

Yes, it has. It's reminding me why I had an account that started in 2012 and never did a single operation.

Word. It's so annoying that people don't want to try to figure things out on their own anymore.

And then they complain when the content is designed to be spoon fed to them.

 

All True.

Seems to be enough blame to go around. Yes the original group should have said they were learning. No it is not curtesy to learn from the web how to do the content (unless you like to do that) Learning by doing is fine. In the end casirabit nailed it:

While I may understand the OP reason for quitting the raid, because of them not knowing the op, I do not think there was a reason for posting it on the forum. It should have been done and over with when the OP removed herself (?) from the operation and not brought to the forums, at least in my opinion.

There was no reason to start this thread except to look for an attaboy or attagirl from like minded players.

[DavidAtkinson]

The moment that people do not respond to the question whether anyone has not done it before (it is a courtesy, not calling anyone out, it's generally painfully obvious which people don't know what they're doing), that is when they lose any and all sympathy from me. It excludes the possibility of learning (whether by being told or by figuring things out) because that would not require silence on their part, it just means they mean to wing it and hope nobody will notice.

 

I got into ops very late. My first runs were when the lvl55 ones were put on groupfinder, and I didn't even learn the mechanics of EV and KP till 4.0. Whenever I saw a group forming on fleet, I'd start out with asking if I was welcome if I didn't know the operation, and if I got an invite, I'd restate that I'd never done it before when everyone was loaded in, and this resulted in two possible scenarios. Either I would get an explanation of the boss fights as we got to them, or it was a group confident enough to just barge through. I liked the former better than the latter.

 

The thing is, many raiders are very passionate about it and there is a great number of them that absolutely love explaining things. These same people that would take all the time in the world to explain everything, can suddenly get very agitated when they realize their group is trying to wing it and then stays completely silent when asked about it.

 

In that scenario, surely everyone can see that it's not the experienced people that are lacking in manners? A good time can only be had if everyone is on the same page. Either you have the same approach, you adjust to the group, or you pull out, but trying to deceive your group helps absolutely nobody, ever.

 

 

What do you think would have happened if they told the OP at the start of operation that it's the first time for them ? He would have rage quitted the group. Or you would have explained them what they have to do perhaps, OP ? Obviously not. Instead of coming to the forums and telling everyone this " outrage", it would have been better if you spent like 10 mins of your life giving them tips about what they have to do. But no..

Complaining about is cooler and easier. .

Edited March 10, 2018 by DavidAtkinson

[LordTurin]

What do you think would have happened if they told the OP at the start of operation that it's the first time for them ? He would have rage quitted the group. Or you would have explained them what they have to do perhaps, OP ? Obviously not. Instead of coming to the forums and telling everyone this " outrage", it would have been better if you spent like 10 mins of your life giving them tips about what they have to do. But no..

Complaining about is cooler and easier. .

 

He either would have said "sorry, I don't have time/don't feel like teaching new folks how to do the op, but good luck and have fun!", or because they were upfront with him, he would have hopped in voice chat with them and walked them through the op (or, since its sm, just wrote stuff in chat).

 

Serious question for those who have done group content. How many times has someone actually been yelled at for messing up or not knowing what to do if they inform everyone right at the start that they are new? I have done a huge amount of pug ops (100's easily), and not once have I seen someone who straight up admitted not knowing what to do get yelled at. If you don't know what to do, and wipe the group, sure I've seen that. But never someone who admitted ahead of time they were new.

[TrixxieTriss]

He either would have said "sorry, I don't have time/don't feel like teaching new folks how to do the op, but good luck and have fun!", or because they were upfront with him, he would have hopped in voice chat with them and walked them through the op (or, since its sm, just wrote stuff in chat).

 

Serious question for those who have done group content. How many times has someone actually been yelled at for messing up or not knowing what to do if they inform everyone right at the start that they are new? I have done a huge amount of pug ops (100's easily), and not once have I seen someone who straight up admitted not knowing what to do get yelled at. If you don't know what to do, and wipe the group, sure I've seen that. But never someone who admitted ahead of time they were new.

 

Agreed ^^

[Asmodesu]

Serious question for those who have done group content. How many times has someone actually been yelled at for messing up or not knowing what to do if they inform everyone right at the start that they are new? I have done a huge amount of pug ops (100's easily), and not once have I seen someone who straight up admitted not knowing what to do get yelled at. If you don't know what to do, and wipe the group, sure I've seen that. But never someone who admitted ahead of time they were new.

 

I get kicked for saying I haven't done it, or done it once etc instead of yelled at or given a basic idea of what to do. Not much better. So I gave up trying. That's both normal easier ops and some other group stuff. I've learned, taught by the community, to not say a word and just try to watch what the others are doing and try to remember anything I've read about it if I want any chance at all to get to do this types of group content.

Edited March 10, 2018 by Asmodesu

[RandomName_Ru]

Serious question for those who have done group content. How many times has someone actually been yelled at for messing up or not knowing what to do if they inform everyone right at the start that they are new? I have done a huge amount of pug ops (100's easily), and not once have I seen someone who straight up admitted not knowing what to do get yelled at. If you don't know what to do, and wipe the group, sure I've seen that. But never someone who admitted ahead of time they were new.

 

As many times as I seen a noob (not new player, it is a very important distinction) raging at anyone offering advise – very rarely.

 

P.S. I am a casual player. I wanted to raid for story reasons (Dread War arc). After several PUG runs (some of them were a disaster), I made some like minded friends and eventually we stumbled on and were invited to a guild that was dedicated to teaching raids to any willing new player. And yes, it was full of "elitist jerks". Loved them all. Good times.

 

I get kicked for saying I haven't done it, or done it once etc instead of yelled at or given a basic idea of what to do. Not much better. So I gave up trying. That's both normal easier ops and some other group stuff. I've learned, taught by the community, to not say a word and just try to watch what the others are doing and try to remember anything I've read about it if I want any chance at all to get to do this types of group content.

 

Where can I find such hive of scum and villany? And what role do you play?

 

Seriously, where such weaklings that can not help to and compensate for one new player run?

Edited March 10, 2018 by RandomName_Ru

[ArdeliaAgain]

What do you think would have happened if they told the OP at the start of operation that it's the first time for them ? He would have rage quitted the group.

 

So...

 

Because other people who aren't them rage quit in the past (or yelled at and belittled, in the case of the other poster), everybody's just assumed to be responsible for teaching or just dealing with the miscues...just in case they might also be a horrible person?

 

Wouldn't it be more rational and adult to write the previous folks off as being the problem, instead of pushing the uncomfortable off on every new person? You might as well just say "I don't want to momentarily risk feeling bad, so Ima make it this other guy's problem instead."

 

...and people are calling the OP selfish.

 

Look, I'm truly sorry lousy people play this game and feel the need to belittle everybody that's not them....I really, truly am. There's no need for it, and I know its uncomfortable when it happens.

 

But that solution's just downright passive-aggressive. It makes the overall problem worse, not better.

Edited March 10, 2018 by ArdeliaAgain

[Seireeni]

Serious question for those who have done group content. How many times has someone actually been yelled at for messing up or not knowing what to do if they inform everyone right at the start that they are new? I have done a huge amount of pug ops (100's easily), and not once have I seen someone who straight up admitted not knowing what to do get yelled at. If you don't know what to do, and wipe the group, sure I've seen that. But never someone who admitted ahead of time they were new.

 

In the game? Can't really recall, but not very often. Couple of mean comments when people accidentally i.e. pull a boss or a difficult mob before the group is ready by walking too close. However, I have seen several times that someone says they're new, and couple of people immediately drop group. That's not as bad, but too often still means that we won't be able to complete the op since few people have the patience to wait for a new tank or a healer. :/

 

On the forums, though, it's far too common to get called names for not knowing the tactics before joining. One of the reasons I feel it's strange so many people feel they don't want to do ops because they might get yelled at, but are fine with posting on the forums. Imo this is a much more vicious place than your regular pug ops.

[Nyla]

I'm one of thoses who could have done end-game PvE in this game but in the end didn't.

I played some MMOs (SWG, LotRO, AoC, GW 1&2, ...) and did raids in some but not all, always for the same reasons.

 

There are 2 problems imo: the players and how devs designed the different tiers of end-game contents.

 

About players, the problem is there are different kind of players with different expectations.

There's a group of people that want to do the content just for the sake of doing it. They don't care that much about rewards or time. They expect others to have knowledge about their class but that's all, the content should be learnable while doing it without relying on external knowledge. Their goal is to spend some time as a group and work together to manage to beat the content.

There's another group with a progression oriented mind. Each content they do is a step forward their goal. They value a lot knowledge about encounters and boss tactics. As they want to progress, they want to be efficient, not wasting time on things they expect people to already know about it.

 

And then come in the devs, with how they designed the different kinds of end-game contents.

 

The contents, the rewards, the systems that enable players to do each content should be properly designed to NOT put theses different groups of people together.

 

• Different tiers of content with different levels of difficulty, different amount of in game cues to understand what 's going on in an encounter, different scripts based on how players fail/success a step and how it punishes/rewards them in an encounter.
  
• Different rewards or amount of rewards to properly interest each group. Each group should seek different rewards and have no use for the rewards of the other groups.
  
• Finally, systems that clearly let players explain what they are after so players of different groups aren't mixed randomly. Also requirements, to not have new people making mistakes and ending in the wrong kind of group.
  

 

Humans have troubles with communications since the start and this is just another example. The guild group could have said more but the OP could also have checked if the group was on same level as her.

More communication is better but with the proper systems, theses situations would not happen. Why let people with different goals and game experience be together in a group without notifying them ?

[ThomasStarWars]

The amount of lazy people who want everything handed to them is through the roof.

[Alec_Fortescue]

Seriously? Six people in a guild formed a group expecting (not asking) someone to explain an op to them and you think I am the one without manners?

 

I stand with you. There is nothing worse than people going into group content and being a liability without even the courtesy of looking the theory up. Thy're wasting everyone's time.

[Yeastman]

OP, I get where you're at. I have better things to do on a Friday night when im trying to unwind than walk people I dont know through content i've done hundreds of times.

 

Raids as a game design is a flawed idea at best. They work wonderfully with a tight knit group of friends working together for a common goal; lots of social interaction and good fun. Outside of that context they almost always break down into a huge time sink that's filled with failure and frustration.

 

Society is changing and our culture is changing, and one major aspect of that is time. Living in a world with so many sources of entertainment and distraction, not to mention making ends meet with multiple jobs, Investing the time needed to make Raids actually fun is becoming less and less viable.

[cyrusramsey]

What do you think would have happened if they told the OP at the start of operation that it's the first time for them ? He would have rage quitted the group. Or you would have explained them what they have to do perhaps, OP ? Obviously not. Instead of coming to the forums and telling everyone this " outrage", it would have been better if you spent like 10 mins of your life giving them tips about what they have to do. But no..

Complaining about is cooler and easier. .

 

It is not for that guild to decide what another player is to spend their time on.

 

One can argue that the initial assumption that it would be a quick run because it was a guild run is on the OP, but that's just another component of the same argument I was making. It is not bad manners to only want to be part of a certain kind of group, it is not bad manners to want to assemble a group with only players that have done it before, it's bad manners to not be up front about such things.

 

Now I'm not saying that this is all on the inexperienced players. If people just want a very quick run, they can (and often will) advertise with "must know fights", which is a clear indication that that is not the group you're looking for if you've never done it before. If the guild in OP's story had admitted right from the start that they'd never done it before, that they wanted to be told the mechanics or that they wanted to try and figure things out as a group, OP could've then, based on honest communication, decided whether or not to be a part of that. Not wanting to be a part of that is not bad manners.

 

Bad manners is the trying to deceive. I realize that a lot of this stems from insecurity, a fear of being singled out, but the guild in question was undeniably dishonest. If everyone had been clear about what was going on, this situation would've been resolved before the run ever got started. Fun is had, in any kind of group content, when you find a compatible group, not when you pretend to be a compatible group.

Edited March 10, 2018 by cyrusramsey

[aerockyul]

On the forums, though, it's far too common to get called names for not knowing the tactics before joining. One of the reasons I feel it's strange so many people feel they don't want to do ops because they might get yelled at, but are fine with posting on the forums. Imo this is a much more vicious place than your regular pug ops.

 

This is a good point. Some are quick to insult anyone passively for not knowing any of the Ops preternaturally. "A retarded blind monkey with no limbs and half a tail could do this Op naked, solo. Anyone who can't should uninstall for being a lazy ******* wasting the "good" players' time for trying to learn anything in-game!"

 

Some are much more passive about it, of course, but the result is the same. Learning in-game is frowned upon. Their time is more important than yours because the game is a job to them and if they can't complete content with mind-numbing efficiency, it's your fault for not doing everything the exact same way they do.

 

PvPers are the same, but you should of course kys in that case.

 

 

 

It is awesome how a population so starved for new players and people to fill all the group finders so actively does everything they can to push people away.

 

inb4 it's just a minority of players....well, they sure do a better job pushing away than the "majority" does reeling them in.

[Nyla]

If the guild in OP's story had admitted right from the start that they'd never done it before, that they wanted to be told the mechanics or that they wanted to try and figure things out as a group, OP could've then, based on honest communication, decided whether or not to be a part of that. Not wanting to be a part of that is not bad manners.

 

Bad manners is the trying to deceive. I realize that a lot of this stems from insecurity, a fear of being singled out, but the guild in question was undeniably dishonest. If everyone had been clear about what was going on, this situation would've been resolved before the run ever got started. Fun is had, in any kind of group content, when you find a compatible group, not when you pretend to be a compatible group.

 

The same way the guild members could have said something about not knowing the tactics, the OP could have asked something to be sure the group she joined was compatible with her goals.

Considering it was a story operation, there was a good chance someone was new. Why inexperienced players doing a story op (easy tier) would think someone joining them would be against spending the time necessary to complete it with inexperienced players ?

 

Then beyond the communication problem, there's the problem that the game let it happen, that somehow for an experienced player doing entry level content is useful (which leads experienced players to think it's normal to have the easy entry level content be done efficiently ie no discussion, no explaining and fast when it's made for inexperienced players to learn)...