No, I am not teaching your guild how to raid

[xordevoreaux]

Then beyond the communication problem, there's the problem that the game let it happen, that somehow for an experienced player doing entry level content is useful (which leads experienced players to think it's normal to have the easy entry level content be done efficiently ie no discussion, no explaining and fast when it's made for inexperienced players to learn)...

 

...and then to kavetch on the forums about it when that isn't what happens.

Edited March 10, 2018 by xordevoreaux

[cyrusramsey]

The same way the guild members could have said something about not knowing the tactics, the OP could have asked something to be sure the group she joined was compatible with her goals.

Considering it was a story operation, there was a good chance someone was new. Why inexperienced players doing a story op (easy tier) would think someone joining them would be against spending the time necessary to complete it with inexperienced players ?

 

Then beyond the communication problem, there's the problem that the game let it happen, that somehow for an experienced player doing entry level content is useful (which leads experienced players to think it's normal to have the easy entry level content be done efficiently ie no discussion, no explaining and fast when it's made for inexperienced players to learn)...

 

You state something to me as if it's a point, except I already made that point in the piece that you cut out.

 

Both sides could've communicated better.

 

One side WAS DECEPTIVE.

 

There's a lot of "yeah but this could've happened or often times that occurs and these kinda players are like this or that" when a full guild was lying by omission, on purpose, when explicitly asked something.

[xordevoreaux]

There's a lot of "yeah but this could've happened or often times that occurs and these kinda players are like this or that" when a full guild was lying by omission, on purpose, when explicitly asked something.

 

From what we've been told by the OP. We haven't heard word one from the other players who were in that situation.

 

Therefore, I still maintain the possibility (not saying that was the case, but leaving open the possibility) that they were merely young and simply clueless, both in what they wanted to accomplish and the need to communicate, and had no malicious or deceptive intent to lure a knowledgeable player into their midst.

[cyrusramsey]

It just really gets to me when there's such a clearly identifiable issue here, dishonesty, and there's post after post dancing around that issue and focusing on whatever feeling people might have about a certain subgroup of players. If you're going to be dishonest, you're going to agitate people. You can't go claiming that people would've gotten agitated for some reason anyway when your deception was the direct cause for this agitation.

 

This is a thing for me because while I've had some bad experiences, like everyone else, I've been on both sides of the fence, and I've experienced that just being honest about your experience level will most of the time cause for a good experience, but also times where I could see that people didn't know what they were doing, could see that they didn't have any relevant achievements, and still not a single one willing to speak up about it. This is not something that happens every now and then, either, it happens every single day, and these people are making it harder on not only their group, but also themselves. Stop defending people that lie, stop lying. Good times will be had.

[Nyla]

It just really gets to me when there's such a clearly identifiable issue here, dishonesty, and there's post after post dancing around that issue and focusing on whatever feeling people might have about a certain subgroup of players. If you're going to be dishonest, you're going to agitate people. You can't go claiming that people would've gotten agitated for some reason anyway when your deception was the direct cause for this agitation.

 

This is a thing for me because while I've had some bad experiences, like everyone else, I've been on both sides of the fence, and I've experienced that just being honest about your experience level will most of the time cause for a good experience, but also times where I could see that people didn't know what they were doing, could see that they didn't have any relevant achievements, and still not a single one willing to speak up about it. This is not something that happens every now and then, either, it happens every single day, and these people are making it harder on not only their group, but also themselves. Stop defending people that lie, stop lying. Good times will be had.

 

There's posts after posts because we aren't focusing on the same thing.

For you, the important part is that, after they wiped, when asked by the OP who haven't done the op before, there was no answer.

For me, the important parts is the OP assumed things when she joined the group, didn't asked anything and states that

there is no way I'm going to explain an entire op to a guild group where not a single person even bothered to look it up and just assumed someone would teach them the op

which leads me to believe that lies or not, she would have quit.

 

I don't even understand your part about lying by omission on purpose, what purpose ? not saying they don't know the tactics doesn't help them in completing the op so, what purpose ? except not be seen as the weak link, I'm not sure what purpose there is.

 

And finally, for me, the most important thing is not about the miscommunication, the lies or whatever, it's how to improve the game to have problems occuring less often or not anymore.

As stated in a previous post, by better designing the different tiers of contents, by rewarding players differently and by having a better group finder tool, problems linked to miscommunication, assumption... would be reduced a lot.

[exfell]

For me, the important parts is the OP assumed things when she joined the group, didn't asked anything and states that ...which leads me to believe that lies or not, she would have quit.

 

She may have quit, she may not have. I would have if I did not have the time or mood to teach.

 

Do you pug operations with any frequency? If so, you know full well that the default when joining a group on fleet is that it will be a relatively frictionless run and and even more so if a guild run. Definitely not something where the rest of the group is there for the 1st time.

 

If the OP assumed anything it was just expecting the normal, not that this would be the rare exception that also failed to mention in advertising that it was one. Not mentioning it was likely simple ignorance though and not purposeful deceit from the group.

Edited March 11, 2018 by exfell

[DeVanagloris]

The amount of lazy people who want everything handed to them is through the roof.

 

Such compelling, thought-provoking argument, i'm astonished. It sure took you long to come up with that.

 

How can you go as far as judging whether or not someone is lazy or wants stuff handed to them? I guess you wanted the discussion handed to you, amirite?

 

Seriously, the neo conservative crap is old already.

[TrixxieTriss]

It just really gets to me when there's such a clearly identifiable issue here, dishonesty, and there's post after post dancing around that issue and focusing on whatever feeling people might have about a certain subgroup of players. If you're going to be dishonest, you're going to agitate people. You can't go claiming that people would've gotten agitated for some reason anyway when your deception was the direct cause for this agitation.

 

This is a thing for me because while I've had some bad experiences, like everyone else, I've been on both sides of the fence, and I've experienced that just being honest about your experience level will most of the time cause for a good experience, but also times where I could see that people didn't know what they were doing, could see that they didn't have any relevant achievements, and still not a single one willing to speak up about it. This is not something that happens every now and then, either, it happens every single day, and these people are making it harder on not only their group, but also themselves. Stop defending people that lie, stop lying. Good times will be had.

 

👏👏👏👏 well said.

Lying by omission or silence is dishonest and ruins other people’s fun. If people are going to do that, then others become less willing to give people the benefit of the doubt or help.

I see people in this thread blaming the OP for not teaching them or saying that’s why people stop doing group content or new people will be put off.

But how about the OP being put off joining groups in future who ask for help. Has anyone who is blaming the OP, stopped to think about how this changes their perspective of guilds or people spamming fleets chat to get someone to join their group?

What about when the OP tried to give them direction because they weren’t bothering to communicate and they ignored the OP? Will that now negatively change the way the OP communicates in future. Maybe the OP won’t bother speaking up because they think they’ll just be ignored.

All of that happens in pvp too. So many times I see people who need some helpful advice on gearing or something. But when you try communicating you either get silence or raged at. That changes my willingness to speak up the next time I think I can help someone.

Or when you try giving them some basic tactics and they ignore you totally and run around like sheep and then abuse you for using advanced tactics to try and carry them. I’m at the point now where I just don’t bother. 99% of the time it’s either silence or rage, so what’s the point. So now I just do my own thing and hope they have a quarter of a brain between the 7 of them. I still call incs and respond to them, but I don’t give advice and I do what I think will win the game even if it pisses my whole team of sheep off. I’m always hopeful I’ll have good like minded pvpers on my team, but they are becoming rare.

[vadess]

I dont think it’s unreasonable for the OPS leader to have atleast watched a YouTube video on it. Honestly, they all should have If it was their first time.

I’m mainly a pvper, but back when I did the occasional OPS with my then guild, I still took the time to watch something so I wouldn’t slow them down too much.

Maybe the op could have handle the situation better, but they aren’t at fault. The blame lands purely on the raid leader and partially on the rest. They could have at least said at the start that they’d never done it and did someone who had want to be the leader. Then the op could have bowed out gracefully or decided to help. But the op wasn’t given that option, so I can understand how they felt.

I actually wish people who’ve never pvp’d in this game till lvl 70, would go watch some YouTube on how the WZ mechanics work. There is nothing more frustrating than people running off and leaving stuff undefended or not calling incs or not passing the ball because they don’t know how the map works.

I dont mind teaching pvp in the lowest bracket, I put up with it a little in Mids, but I don’t tolerate it in lvl 70. I will leave matches when I see they don’t even know how the map mechanics work. Nobody has the time or patience to teach at lvl 70 because that’s end game for pvpers, you should already know what you are doing before you step into it. That’s what lowbies and Mids is for. Otherwise we may as well have the same pvp system as Guild Wars 2 and everyone gets boosted to lvl 70 with max gear and you get dropped into a very deep pool and need to learn not to drown. Let me tell you, that learn curve in GW2 is extreme if you try going in at lvl 20 and have never pvp’d in that game.

 

Here! Here!!!

[xordevoreaux]

👏👏👏👏 well said.

Lying by omission or silence is dishonest and ruins other people’s fun. If people are going to do that, then others become less willing to give people the benefit of the doubt or help.

I see people in this thread blaming the OP for not teaching them or saying that’s why people stop doing group content or new people will be put off.

But how about the OP being put off joining groups in future who ask for help. Has anyone who is blaming the OP, stopped to think about how this changes their perspective of guilds or people spamming fleets chat to get someone to join their group?

What about when the OP tried to give them direction because they weren’t bothering to communicate and they ignored the OP? Will that now negatively change the way the OP communicates in future. Maybe the OP won’t bother speaking up because they think they’ll just be ignored.

All of that happens in pvp too. So many times I see people who need some helpful advice on gearing or something. But when you try communicating you either get silence or raged at. That changes my willingness to speak up the next time I think I can help someone.

Or when you try giving them some basic tactics and they ignore you totally and run around like sheep and then abuse you for using advanced tactics to try and carry them. I’m at the point now where I just don’t bother. 99% of the time it’s either silence or rage, so what’s the point. So now I just do my own thing and hope they have a quarter of a brain between the 7 of them. I still call incs and respond to them, but I don’t give advice and I do what I think will win the game even if it pisses my whole team of sheep off. I’m always hopeful I’ll have good like minded pvpers on my team, but they are becoming rare.

 

The point others make that you miss when the op said

Now, don't get me wrong, I don't mind explaining ops to people and even have a text file on my desktop with instructions written so I can just copy / paste them into chat but there is no way I'm going to explain an entire op to a guild group where not a single person even bothered to look it up and just assumed someone would teach them the op.

 

People assuming you'll explain something to them aren't going to rage at you when you do.

[beattlebilly]

The point others make that you miss when the op said

 

 

People assuming you'll explain something to them aren't going to rage at you when you do.

 

Where did Trixxie say, or even assume, that the OP was raged at?

Edited March 11, 2018 by beattlebilly

[xordevoreaux]

Where did Trixxie say, or even assume, that the OP was raged at?

 

Trix:

All of that happens in pvp too. So many times I see people who need some helpful advice on gearing or something. But when you try communicating you either get silence or raged at.

 

It's not that the op was raged at. Trix is making the point that trying to help means you get raged at, as an absolute.

"silence or raged at" as if those are the only two things that EVER happen when trying to help.

That is the falsity I'm pointing out. The op said they assumed they would help.

People assuming someone will help won't rage at you when you do.

That is the point.

[TrixxieTriss]

Trix:

 

 

It's not that the op was raged at. Trix is making the point that trying to help means you get raged at, as an absolute.

"silence or raged at" as if those are the only two things that EVER happen when trying to help.

That is the falsity I'm pointing out. The op said they assumed they would help.

People assuming someone will help won't rage at you when you do.

That is the point.

 

Wow, so I use experiences I personally have to show how it affects me in helping other people and all of a sudden I’m falsifying things.

 

You know you can share an experience that isn’t exactly 100% the same to make a point. That is what I was doing. So I’m sorry if I confused you. I hope me explaining that that will help.

 

I have to ask, is English your first language because you often miss the nuisances of language and sentence structure when someone is trying to explain things in a narrative. You seem to take things too literal, like you are using a translator or something. If that’s the case, then I can understand why we often get crossed wires when discussing things.

[TrixxieTriss]

Where did Trixxie say, or even assume, that the OP was raged at?

 

I believe he takes things a bit to literal when reading and didn’t pick up on the fact that I was talking about my own experiences and not the OP’s

[Everrgreen]

The reward wasn't for you. Keith explicitly explained those mats are for people who do the harder end of end game. You do not. You made it very clear. So you're in the wrong. Glad I could clear that up for you before you ruined other people's scores

 

OOOOOO.... I can ruin other people's scores???? Just by playing ranked and not knowing what I'm doing and clicking instead of keybinding???? Count me in Suuuch POWAH .. MUAHAHAHA!

 

I can handle plenty of gelatinous vitriol, it's like dancing in the rain!

JK - thx for the lulz

 

BTW.... peeps don't always know the niceties of gaming and while I appreciate op's sense of I-been-wronged righteousness, (and glad op didn't give the team a good ranting what-for), it was such a wasted opportunity to improve raider-noob relations. I want the game to survive - no, I want the game to thrive, and op's response isn't the way to do it.

[Nyla]

She may have quit, she may not have. I would have if I did not have the time or mood to teach.

 

Do you pug operations with any frequency? If so, you know full well that the default when joining a group on fleet is that it will be a relatively frictionless run and and even more so if a guild run. Definitely not something where the rest of the group is there for the 1st time.

 

If the OP assumed anything it was just expecting the normal, not that this would be the rare exception that also failed to mention in advertising that it was one. Not mentioning it was likely simple ignorance though and not purposeful deceit from the group.

 

Having some experience, I understand what's expected by most people and as I disagree with thoses expectations, I don't pug PvE.

 

I understand that the OP was expecting the "norm", ie a fast and smooth run with people knowing what to do.

I could also see how some players new to the game/genre would be in that guild group, not knowing they should have get some informations before doing the op and not willing to step forward when asked about not having done it before, feeling somewhat insecure of themselves and not wanting to be seen as the weak link in front of other guild members they might not know that well.

 

The thing I tried to make people understand in my posts here is relying on communication, unwritten rules and etiquette everyone should know about doesn't work, always created some bad situations like this one in this game or all the multiplayers games I played.

The best way to avoid thoses situations is by designing properly your games. This situation is a consequence of bad design from BW.

There's all kind of people playing games with completely different background and expectations. Hoping that somehow something will happen and all thoses different people in a group will be on the same page at the same time is stupid. Communication alone is not the answer; barrier language, miscommunication, omission, assumption, opinion, ... led to problems for as long as there were humans.

 

Obvious examples of bad design here are: why people with experience and people completely new to the end-game PvE are led to the same content, shouldn't they be challenged by different content ? shouldn't they seek different rewards ? why can't players tell the game what kind of experience they want to participate in so they are put together with like minded people ? why the players aren't notified of the level of expertise of the other players in the group for the current content ? why achievements and how many times you completed a content aren't more used as requirements ?....

 

It's like matchmaking in PvP, never be done so unless you try to cheat the basic existing system you get completely random group composition and thus sometimes the outcome of a match is a direct consequence of a missing system.

 

Anyway, my point was that with a better game design and better in-game tools, the players experience would be better.

Edited March 11, 2018 by Nyla

[EnzoForMe]

Most guilds that know what they're doing aren't going to pug someone from fleet. If they don't have a sub, they're going to tap players that they know from other guilds with comparable progression.

 

If you join as a fleet pug, you are joining an inexperienced group that hasn't integrated into the broader raiding community and should expect very little in terms of prior knowledge of fights.

Edited March 11, 2018 by EnzoForMe

[xordevoreaux]

Wow, so I use experiences I personally have to show how it affects me in helping other people and all of a sudden I’m falsifying things.

 

You know you can share an experience that isn’t exactly 100% the same to make a point. That is what I was doing. So I’m sorry if I confused you. I hope me explaining that that will help.

 

I have to ask, is English your first language because you often miss the nuisances of language and sentence structure when someone is trying to explain things in a narrative. You seem to take things too literal, like you are using a translator or something. If that’s the case, then I can understand why we often get crossed wires when discussing things.

 

I learned English, Dutch, and German together. Didn't speak until I was three until I moved to where only one language was spoken. I speak mostly English now.

[beattlebilly]

Trix:

 

 

It's not that the op was raged at. Trix is making the point that trying to help means you get raged at, as an absolute.

"silence or raged at" as if those are the only two things that EVER happen when trying to help.

That is the falsity I'm pointing out. The op said they assumed they would help.

People assuming someone will help won't rage at you when you do.

That is the point.

 

Trixx didn't use it as an absolute, they gave an example of what happened to them personally and why they won't help people anymore, and the OP's experience as to why the OP probably won't help people anymore. And maybe why others won't. Just because Trixx didn't give other examples doesn't mean those are the only absolute things that they can think of that will prevent people from helping. Here's another reason people won't help: Nit-pickers that just have to prove how much smarter than everyone else they are

Edited March 11, 2018 by beattlebilly

[DWho]

Most guilds that know what they're doing aren't going to pug someone from fleet. If they don't have a sub, they're going to tap players that they know from other guilds with comparable progression.

 

If you join as a fleet pug, you are joining an inexperienced group that hasn't integrated into the broader raiding community and should expect very little in terms of prior knowledge of fights.

 

What if the guild was training other members and were going through the battles slowly and explaining the fights. I have run into plenty of cases where the "add" becomes disruptive, pulling mobs, rushing ahead, etc. It's one of the reasons guilds rarely use GF or Fleet adds and prefer to pull in people from allied guilds or friends. It's also why it becomes hard to find GF or PUG raids now, the number of people participating in solo oriented "group" content is quite low. Both sides made assumptions that came back to bite them.

 

The guild assumed that they could get someone from fleet that would recognize their weaknesses and help them through it. There are people that would recognize the issue and make an effort to help out but there are a lot more that would throw up their hands and drop or berate the group (or come to the forums to complain looking for others like them to join in and bash the inexperienced group) like is happening in this thread.

 

On the other side, the OP assumed that a group being gathered on the fleet was for a "milk run" and didn't consider the reason they might be looking for a group there is that they did not know any better. Inexperienced people can't use groupfinder because that is for speed runs only now and they can't look for someone in chat to help. Honestly, had they said they were inexperienced would that have mattered as to whether the OP would help them or not? I doubt it.

 

If I were new to raiding and saw a thread titled "No, I am not teaching your guild how to raid", I would make the assumption (here again is the problem, with assumptions - they rarely have a basis in fact) that "old-time" group players are not willing to help (the title does more damage than anything that has been said within).

 

As a solo oriented "group content" player you are much more dependent on the good will of groups than they are on you. So be careful about biting the hand that feeds you.

[Wahala]

I remember back in my WoW days. I got in a guild (by chance) where the GL was a Drill Sgt. He said you will come do this raid. Then he taught us how. He even taught new folks how to be the tank and take the lead. I really did not particularly like the guy (calling me stupid or noob when I pulled a mess up). But he did get me into a lot of

content I would have never seen by puging. I guess it was tough love. He spent a lot of time explaining stuff (though he was not always right .... but it was a bad idea to tell him so ).

 

I would think a group looking for a Tank is probably kind of new .. or looking for a "Leader" so anyone joining up as a Tank should sort of expect it.

 

However I have to add that I really don't know the raid "scene" here in SWTOR ... and have never actually done an operation (Though I have been playing almost every day since the game opened ... ) I still find lots of stuff to do and enjoy this game more than I did WoW or EvE. Just have not found a "Drill Sgt." yet) Ha Ha!

 

I think helping is always better in the long run though. Just my opinion.

Edited March 11, 2018 by Wahala

[ArdeliaAgain]

I remember back in my WoW days. I got in a guild (by chance) where the GL was a Drill Sgt. He said you will come do this raid. Then he taught us how. He even taught new folks how to be the tank and take the lead. I really did not particularly like the guy (calling me stupid or noob when I pulled a mess up). But he did get me into a lot of

content I would have never seen by puging. I guess it was tough love. He spent a lot of time explaining stuff (though he was not always right .... but it was a bad idea to tell him so ).

 

I would think a group looking for a Tank is probably kind of new .. or looking for a "Leader" so anyone joining up as a Tank should sort of expect it.

 

However I have to add that I really don't know the raid "scene" here in SWTOR ... and have never actually done an operation (Though I have been playing almost every day since the game opened ... ) I still find lots of stuff to do and enjoy this game more than I did WoW or EvE. Just have not found a "Drill Sgt. yet) Ha Ha!

 

I think helping is always better in the long run though. Just my opinion.

 

But your experience is within a guild setting. The guy you're talking about had an investment in the guild, and in developing the players in it, with an immediately accessible benefit in it for him (readily available, competent players).

 

He was also doing it voluntarily, and (one presumes) after being asked or directed to by guild leadership.

 

....none of which translates to an essentially PUG scenario.

[beattlebilly]

blech Edited March 11, 2018 by beattlebilly

[Lyshar]

👏👏👏👏 well said.

Lying by omission or silence is dishonest and ruins other people’s fun. If people are going to do that, then others become less willing to give people the benefit of the doubt or help.

I see people in this thread blaming the OP for not teaching them or saying that’s why people stop doing group content or new people will be put off.

But how about the OP being put off joining groups in future who ask for help. Has anyone who is blaming the OP, stopped to think about how this changes their perspective of guilds or people spamming fleets chat to get someone to join their group?

What about when the OP tried to give them direction because they weren’t bothering to communicate and they ignored the OP? Will that now negatively change the way the OP communicates in future. Maybe the OP won’t bother speaking up because they think they’ll just be ignored.

All of that happens in pvp too. So many times I see people who need some helpful advice on gearing or something. But when you try communicating you either get silence or raged at. That changes my willingness to speak up the next time I think I can help someone.

Or when you try giving them some basic tactics and they ignore you totally and run around like sheep and then abuse you for using advanced tactics to try and carry them. I’m at the point now where I just don’t bother. 99% of the time it’s either silence or rage, so what’s the point. So now I just do my own thing and hope they have a quarter of a brain between the 7 of them. I still call incs and respond to them, but I don’t give advice and I do what I think will win the game even if it pisses my whole team of sheep off. I’m always hopeful I’ll have good like minded pvpers on my team, but they are becoming rare.

 

Good post, and another example that happened to me today.

 

So I was joining a random group for an operation, I was the tank again. The other tank was probably not even tank spec but that didn't matter. So after explaining the basics for the first boss he does the complete opposite and keeps taunting the boss into the group. It's one where the tanks have to stay together, and he did not do that. So I was once more not fighting the boss, I was fighting the boss AND the off-tank. After wiping one other that was trying to explain the fight as well left stating he didn't have time for that, at that time I became the official group leader We got a replacement quickly, tried to explain again to the would be tank, and again he did not listen. After that wipe the one that joined last said he could off tank it, but everyone was already giving up.

 

It was frustrating, so I tried joining another group and one was in need of a tank, so when i joined I asked in a friendly manner if everyone was at least a little known with the operation, that I was just hoping so we could talk people through bosses if needed. Most remained silent, but the ops leader went on how the off-tank and myself were the only unknown, the others were all guildies. Guess what, we had damage dealers running through the tanks, and I just know if there was any of those taunt happy ones it would have been the same story all over again.

 

The way people are acting makes me consider dropping the tanks (and maybe healers while we're at it). It makes people want to play a mute damage dealer that doesn't get the tactics.

 

But then you have the opposite scenarios where people are willing to listen, respond and just have a good time. Sadly the bad is outweighing the good right now.

[Andryah]

Sitting on fleet today someone was spamming "LF 1 tank TFB guild run". I missed TFB in GF yesterday so I figured I'd join. It was a guild run so it should go pretty smoothly.

 

I joined the group and we went in. There was one other non-guild DPS in the group. The first boss went down fine, the DPS seemed a little slow but not too bad. When we got to the second boss, the group leader did a ready check, everyone hit ready, and then that's when all hell broke loose.

 

I took Kelsara and immediately realized something was wrong. Two DPS leapt with me and continued to bang on her even after I told them numerous times to attack Heirad. Somehow, Heirad finally died and then one guild member died to doom and then another. We ended up wiping so I asked if anyone hadn't done this before and got zero replies. Then I looked at everyone's achievements. Not a single one of the six guild members had ever done the op before. I then asked about that and finally the leader spoke up asking (more like assuming) if I would explain the op to them. Needless to say, I quit the group immediately.

 

Now, don't get me wrong, I don't mind explaining ops to people and even have a text file on my desktop with instructions written so I can just copy / paste them into chat but there is no way I'm going to explain an entire op to a guild group where not a single person even bothered to look it up and just assumed someone would teach them the op.

 

Late to the discussion, and I'm not going to read through all the back and forth posts here......

 

I honestly do not blame you in this case.

 

Why?

 

Because they were dishonest when you inquired if anyone had actually run the particular OP before.... and as a guild group... even if they are inexperienced with the encounter I would fully expect them to be upfront about this AND take guidance from you since you are a veteran of this particular OP.

 

Personally, I think PUGing raids in MMOs sucks in general. That said.. when it is primarily a guild group with a couple of fillers...... that guild is obligated to be up front, honest, and work WITH the strangers joining their group for the encounter. None of this appears to have happened in this case. But again... you joined a PUG... so you had to see the possibility coming. And I agree... you have no obligation to teach a handful of players who are clearly being deceptive with you from the outset.