An Honest Question about GC/CXP/RNG

[Nebdar]

I see a lot of posts expressing dissatisfaction with the non "bugged" amount of CXP dailies now yield for completion.

 

Here is my question.

 

Are people happy with at least the concept of GC/CXP/RNG and are now mostly upset with its current implementation?

 

While I have seen some posts in the arguing/asking for its removal, I see more posts where people want more CXP awarded from doing activities and quests.

 

Has the "remove GC/CXP/RNG" crowd dispersed, gone silent, or just left the forums?

 

This is an honest question.

Do many of you see the GC/CXP/RNG as superior to a traditional commendations system that we had in 1.- 4.x?

 

If you do, that's fine. I am just curious if people now like the GC/CXP/RNG system and would like to know why they feel that way. Or, do people still loathe the GC/CXP/RNG system?

 

Believe it or not, I'm not looking to pick a fight. I am just really curious to see how people feel now and what their reasons are.

 

Honestly,

I love the concept/ idea/ spirit of GC system and like most of BW ideas are great BUT ALL of those ideas and GC included must be tuned and adjusted not just create-> implement and forget.

The current RNG loot table is nice... but the a mount of CXP given to actvities that i can do is to small to feel "rewarded" or incentive to do more.

[Rion_Starkiller]

you can disintegrate all of it. But usually, mains get played to benefit alts -- now it is a two-way street. Frankly, I can't think of any other game that does that.

 

To wit: Why does this matter? Your GC level 50 booze-drinking, whoring Gungslinger can accumulate a currency that benefits your main tank / healer who takes one for the team during Ops.

 

That is a fair point. I am glad that I have 2 things to look forward in this game this year:

1. Legacy UC.

2. New Servers with new hardware & merges

[TUXs]

That is a fair point. I am glad that I have 2 things to look forward in this game this year:

1. Legacy UC.

2. New Servers with new hardware & merges

A new PvP map, a new Flashpoint...there are good things coming, but CXP is still a cancer.

[Cawyden]

A new PvP map, a new Flashpoint...there are good things coming, but CXP is still a cancer.

 

I think CXP is not a bad idea to begin with - just the implementation is not good. I don't want to repeat what I said in my other post but I think the problem is that people like you who like end game and group content can't play the way they like because they have to grind first. And this feels like work and isn't fun. And gear based on RNG is just wrong.

[SolarSaenz]

I think CXP is not a bad idea to begin with - just the implementation is not good.... .... And gear based on RNG is just wrong.

 

Could you please elaborate on your stance? These two statements seem contradictory at first glance.

Your first statement puts the theory of CXP in a good light, but your second statement seems to contradict the first one.

 

Could you please help me to understand what your thoughts are?

[Cawyden]

Could you please elaborate on your stance? These two statements seem contradictory at first glance.

Your first statement puts the theory of CXP in a good light, but your second statement seems to contradict the first one.

 

Could you please help me to understand what your thoughts are?

 

ok so I do like the idea that we get CXP for all kind of activity - playing PVP, doing dailys, Flashpoints, solo quests and so on. And with CXP comes loot boxes with content. And I do like it as a way to gear up - but I rather have it containing just tokens which player can use to buy the gear they need. Like the crystals before they removed them.

 

You can buy or trade against the tokens the kind of gear you like or need so you don't get duplicates or the wrong stats.

 

I mean for me it is not so much an issue as I play mostly solo content and don't need good gear. But others do - and I feel kind of sorry that people have to grind through this system to get the gear to be able to play OPS and other end game activity they like. I don't want Bioware to give away everything direct and freely - you should earn it but it should feel rewarding and not like work and people should be able to get the gear they need by not relying on RNG.

 

I hope this clears it up?

[kodrac]

I think CXP is not a bad idea to begin with - just the implementation is not good. I don't want to repeat what I said in my other post but I think the problem is that people like you who like end game and group content can't play the way they like because they have to grind first. And this feels like work and isn't fun. And gear based on RNG is just wrong.

 

It's a slow down mechanic. Doubled up even: CXP 1-300 is a slow down, RNG is a slow down. They're slowing us down from getting to the top of the mountain so we don't find out that there's nothing up there. If they spent as much time on new things to do as they did on implementing GC and then "tweaking" it, they wouldn't need the slow down mechanic in the first place. Which is why I think it's systemic. Slow players down so they can intentionally be slow to release new content. That or they're out of ideas of what to do next since it is story driven BW game.

[Cawyden]

It's a slow down mechanic. Doubled up even: CXP 1-300 is a slow down, RNG is a slow down. They're slowing us down from getting to the top of the mountain so we don't find out that there's nothing up there. If they spent as much time on new things to do as they did on implementing GC and then "tweaking" it, they wouldn't need the slow down mechanic in the first place. Which is why I think it's systemic. Slow players down so they can intentionally be slow to release new content. That or they're out of ideas of what to do next since it is story driven BW game.

 

I think you are right - but why don't they understand that it isn't helping? They should just focus on getting new content out and not making things worse than before.

[SolarSaenz]

ok so I do like the idea that we get CXP for all kind of activity - playing PVP, doing dailys, Flashpoints, solo quests and so on. And with CXP comes loot boxes with content. And I do like it as a way to gear up - but I rather have it containing just tokens which player can use to buy the gear they need. Like the crystals before they removed them.

 

You can buy or trade against the tokens the kind of gear you like or need so you don't get duplicates or the wrong stats.

 

I mean for me it is not so much an issue as I play mostly solo content and don't need good gear. But others do - and I feel kind of sorry that people have to grind through this system to get the gear to be able to play OPS and other end game activity they like. I don't want Bioware to give away everything direct and freely - you should earn it but it should feel rewarding and not like work and people should be able to get the gear they need by not relying on RNG.

 

I hope this clears it up?

 

Thanks. It's clear now.

[Jdast]

I'm actually about to go play the game now. And I don't know how you did it Solar, but this thread has actually been really informative. I hope the Devs read it. There are good arguments on both sides. Of course, as a Hutt, mine are the best.

 

Dasty

 

P.S. Can I experiment on your brain?

[Transcendent]

The vast majority of the criticisms I have read about the gearing system (including in this thread) have either: a) been corrected; or b) will be corrected on November 28th -- assuming they don't screw up the conversion rate of unwanted crate gear to legacy-wide UCs.

And, that's a big if. Also, they clearly have to do something about the UC limit now that it is legacy-wide. Personally, for the latter point, I give them a 30% chance of getting it right (see, I'm trying to tick everyone off, even Bioware).

 

Look, we can all look to the past screw-ups, but post-Nov. 28th, the new gearing system with respect to GC is fundamentally changed. Put bluntly, RNG and GC Rank are no longer issues (or significantly reduced). And, more importantly, your alts can benefit your main. Hear me out.

 

One can call the entire GC system, including post-Nov. 28th, convoluted and annoying (it is) with an 'unnecessary middle-man' but every piece of gear becomes an item that can be converted into currency that is legacy-wide. That has some pretty profound implications:

 

1) you can gear out a freshly minted 70 out in EVEN LEFT SIDE gear without crafting / buying on GTN if you have enough UC's saved up. Since UCs are legacy-wide and you can purchase the Tier 1 gear, you will also be able to level up the set bonus armor slot. Put differently, Command Rank doesn't really matter.

 

2) Your alts can now help your main, which is pretty rare in the MMORPG world as far as I know it (WoW, Rift, LotRO, ESO). Say you spend a tedious night chewing glass on your Juggernaut Tank in a NiM Op -- when done you just want to slaughter stuff on your Gunslinger (assuming 70). Any crap you get in a crate you can disintegrate into UCs, which -- in turn -- you can use to fill out your BiS gear for your tank. Given lockouts, this is pretty cool.

 

TL-DR: There is a stigma attached to the Galactic Command Crate System, which is understandable given its horrific implementation pre-November 28th.

 

That is the good news. The bad news is I assume the conversion rate of disintegrated gear to legacy-wide UCs will be terrible.

 

Now that I've ticked everyone off (including Bioware who will screw up the conversion rate),

 

Hugs and G'night,

 

Dasty

 

P.S. This post addressed only the broader gearing system, not the CXP rate gain. I have already made clear that those need tweaking. Bioware said they will do just that. I give them a 30% of getting that right.

 

The problem however, still remains for PvP players who have no desire to run operations.

[Rabenschwinge]

If that truly is the thinking/mind set/philosophy if BW/EA, then they don't understand the purpose of a game.

A game is supposed to be fun.

That idea alone (a game is supposed to be fun) is a given. You learn that like at pre school age.

A game isn't supposed to feel like a second job. And, sadly, there are people who have commented that grinding to CR 300 feels like a second job, especially earlier this year when there weren't so many CXP buffs.

 

But, oh, well. I guess some fundamental laws in the universe got changed, and now games are supposed to NOT be fun.

The purpose of the game is obviously to make money.

 

And it turns out the biggest amount of fun, especially in an ongoing game, is not necessarily the best incentive for players to stay and spend their money. To maintain an ongoing challenge, to extrude the grind forever is. Make the players worry about the game, their success, think about as much as possible. They don't necessarily need to enjoy it (that helps, too, but isn't required).

 

Do you believe they added additional five levels in regular intervals before, because it was necessary to do so in order to improve the game. (Which is not to say the game hadn't improved, I personally don't think that 70 levels make it fundamentally better than 50.) Or that turning the maximum gear rating up in the process makes the game fundamentally better? The command system serves the same purpose, it just has a longer effect. It won't last forever, but longer than put yet another five levels on top.

Edited October 13, 2017 by Rabenschwinge

[Eli_Porter]

The problem however, still remains for PvP players who have no desire to run operations.

 

Then do ranked.

 

Or get your alts to 70 for the conquest mission + alliance alert to get 70 UC's and a grand chance cube alongside the PvP weekly+daily rewards.

[kodrac]

I think you are right - but why don't they understand that it isn't helping? They should just focus on getting new content out and not making things worse than before.

 

Think about it: an EA exec comes in and says you're not going to have a large budget and/or staff this coming fiscal year, but we're not shutting the game down. You need to come up with a way to keep people playing and paying while trickling out content. Slow the players down to match the pace of content releases. Not a lot of leeway there.

Edited October 13, 2017 by kodrac

[ScottishDrunk]

Completely agree. Frankly, I think the lack of MMO content had as much if not more to do with the decline in numbers than the gearing system. Regardless, it doesn't matter in that the end result was the same -- declining population.

 

I got a couple people to join, but even they have intimated that 1 new FP and 2 new bosses won't keep them interested for very long.

 

Put differently, the new gearing system is a necessary but not sufficient condition to sustain the health of the game. Absent new and interesting content -- yeah, the game (like any other) is toast.

 

Dasty

 

P.S. On a completely different note, thank you for igniting the perennial war I have with my partner (who is a Scot). I told him I was replying to someone named, "Scottishdrunk," to which he quipped: "Well, you can change your name to 'Irishdrunk' but that would be a bit redundant." I then reminded him that Haggis is quite possibly the most disgusting thing on the planet, which led to him barking about Ireland remaining neutral in WWII...I could go on but need to add some Bailey's to my cereal (we currently are in Western USA so it is morning).

 

Haggis is boufin to be fair

Cant stand the stuff

or whisky....

 

Scottish Gin however..... outstanding

[realleaftea]

Are people happy with at least the concept of GC/CXP/RNG and are now mostly upset with its current implementation?

The question is quite delusive. It's kind of strange to mention the words 'happy' and 'concept' in the same context. Are you happy with the concept of a cell phone? Or do you like that product 'abc' has the implemented features 'xyz'?

 

But let's see:

 

Command XP:

... simply an alternative to 'character XP'. From a technical point of view, it's the same thing. On predefined circumstances, a numerical value increases. The values might be categorized and achieving a certain score might trigger other changes. In one case, a new level, in the other a new rank.

 

All in all, it's a very basic concept that can be found everywhere, Product versions, calendar dates and even currencies. All of them use this system of ordered numeric values. But can you state if you're happy with the concept of a calandar system?

___

 

But a bit more about why the CXP system was introduced...

 

SWTOR always had many different reward systems. But they have had their own restrictions & limits, and might have been subject to changes (see Dulfy 2.x f.e.). It's not a new thing. The introduction of commendation crystals simplified the previous system and even created one with 'tier-specific gear'... so not even that is a novelty of the Galactic Command System.

 

And even during KotFE, new reward systems were added => the alliance factions / specialists. Unlike other commendation systems though, it was based on special items rather than on an internal currency and the reward came in form of boxes rather than access to special vendors.

 

But most of the reward systems had one thing in common; They were independant of the rest, including other systems like the character XP system. And that brings me to the next point:

___

 

Independant reward systems are the things that define the "end-game content". So are you generally 'happy' with the concept of an "end-game content", i.e. XP-independant reward systems? Because the Galactic Command system is one variant of it.

 

Unlike the name suggests though, it's neither the 'end of the game', nor 'the last content to ever exist'. It only a momentary state in which the player achieved the maximum score in a single - admittedly important - numeric system. And this numeric system in question - the XP system - is quite a problematic one. Not because of the system itself - it's not that different - but due to player expectations associated with it. More XP mean a higher level, more active skills and more utilities, right? But that makes it a limited system. F.e. there's no real use for an endless number skills, if there's only enough time to use a few of them.

 

So let's see:

There's one numeric system that is quite problematic and there's an recurring situation called "end-game" in which the system comes to an hold and becomes kind of irrelevant anyways? So why should the developers focus on that and why should BioWare even advertise it?

 

And that's - in essence - the only thing that BioWare changed!

 

SWTOR has countless of XP-independant reward systems. The planetary commendations, cyclic events, the DvL event, datacrons, the alliance factions, companion influence, PvP in general, etc. They just put one of these systems in the main focus. And they did so by copying some common aspects from the XPl system, like the XP bar, the notification when you reached the next milestone/category (a.k.a. rank).

 

And btw: That it's an advertised centerstone is already a implementation/realization detail....

 

RNG, loot, boxes, etc.:

 

First of all, RNG is such an integral part of most of the games that there is hardly any case where the very concept is put into question. I.e. it makes no sense to question the randomness of roulette. But of course, one could still question the implementation details, like the number of cards f.e.

 

It's the same thing with SWTOR. It's build on randomness and players usually only question certain changes that were implemented by the devs. Fe.e. every attack has a chance to result in a critical hit. No need to question that.

 

However, what is perceived as 'acceptable' depends on the context and might vary a lot. Typically, it's more a matter of how a player perceives himself. A lottery is usually accepted, although the chances are diminutive. Likewise, some players saw it as a challenge to defeat all Dark Soul bosses 'naked', whereas other called the game 'unfair'.

 

But to get back to SWTOR:

Even before BioWare introduced the Galactic Command system, there has been a lot of randomness, even in regard of loot. There's even an option to let the game decide, who will get the loot.

 

And even if we assume the most trivial form of randomness - a guaranteed success - there are still countless of other factors that alter whether a situation is accepted or not. F.e. there was a 100% chance that an operation boss would drop an item, but only a few would drop a mainhand weapon. Some players might have got accepted this, whereas others might have had a hard time to get and might have even been forced to win a random roll to get the loot.

 

Likewise, we could debate whether a player should get BIS gear without defeating the most challenging enemy! if that's the case, neither 'casuals' nor PvP players would get it. And there wouldn't be an option to obtain the gear before even attempting that content. I.e. using NIM gear to defeat NIM bosses. Indifferent of what a player prefers, it would automatically lead to a lot of assumptions of what might be acceptable or not, which then depends on the difficulty of a content, etc.

 

So the sheer masses of things to put into consideration should make it clear that it's all about implementation details. And in some cases, it's less about the RNG, but more about the emphasis of it's randomness.

Edited October 13, 2017 by realleaftea

[DarthEnrique]

The thing that’s wrong with GC is the gearing process being locked behind RNG crates and currently PVP and OPS, I’m skeptical of the upcoming Legacy bound UCs you can get through disintegration because I doubt it will be as much as you can get from PVPing because they seem to think forcing people into activities they don’t want to do. Bioware for some reason cannot and will not respect that all areas of the game need to be treated equally and get the same amount as each other. The GC would be a fine system if it didn’t have all this crap where top tier gear is concerned, a smarter and better way to have done this was to have implimented the system to keep you from buying gear from the next tier until you get there and bought the gear with credits, this is systemically possible as we’ve seen with Reputation venders, why they didn’t go that route with GC was idiotic on their part. Edited October 13, 2017 by DarthEnrique

[Zarahemla]

I am not a fan of GC or CXP and I loath RNG.

 

GC killed the GDKP or Gold Dragon Kill Point (also known as the Gold Run, or in SWTOR the Credit Run) loot system. In that loot system you would bid on the loot that drops with in-game currency (in SWTOR it is credits). With these operations being 6+ years old now, seeing a bidding war was often the most interesting part of the operation. The highest bidder wins the loot and the credits are evenly divided at the end of the run.

 

I would have liked to see the GDKP loot system implemented instead of the GC because it has a lot of the same benefits. You earn currency that is used to purchase high end gear by doing what you enjoy in the game, since you earn credits by doing just about everything in this game. Bioware could institute a droid to handle the auction after every boss kill, which could take a portion of the pot as a handling fee, which would combat inflation. This would be more work on Bioware's part because they would finally have to do something with the Yavin 4 credit farming bots, and all the credit sellers in general chat and in-game mail.

 

The GDKP loot system was why I enjoyed doing operations, I don't enjoy them as much now. I was earning 10 million per Eternity Vault run last year, now that source of income is gone because of GC

 

I am also annoyed that preferred / F2P can't get CXP which means they can't get GC crates, which means even if they had a way to get inside an operation, they couldn't get any gear from it, because the tokens you get from operations require command tokens to turn in, which drop from GC crates.

 

RNG has always been bad. I am a mount collector, and had to buy 9 hypercates to get the Platinum item the Holo-Rancor. That is a lot of RL money. Time is money, and it sucks to have to continually farm CXP for that last 248 piece that you need to complete the set.

[xordevoreaux]

Sorry but too busy playing Ebon Hawk Queue RNG to get back with you atm. You know, Ebon Hawk, a server with supposedly new hardware...

[SolarSaenz]

Sorry but too busy playing Ebon Hawk Queue RNG to get back with you atm. You know, Ebon Hawk, a server with supposedly new hardware...

 

Didn't you hear? That "Ebon Hawk Queue RNG" is a new, unannounced FEATURE!!!

This new feature is "better than cross server"!

(Don't take this post too seriously)

[Tahana]

While I have seen some posts in the arguing/asking for its removal, I see more posts where people want more CXP awarded from doing activities and quests.

 

As a fairly recent returning player (4+ months ago) I don't have a problem with the concept. Time is time and my investment on what to do with that time is the issue vs the rewards offered. I'm not going to spend 30-45 minutes of my time running through a daily area and getting only one level.. Not worth the time investment.

[kirorx]

I love it.

 

I hated it at first, but after relaxing about it and just playing the game, it occured to me that I can finally get the best gear for my main characters with out having to play Operations at all.

 

I love playing operations but with work and family, I dont have the hours to really sit and chat on vent. More often than not, I just do some warzones and doing flashpoints. In fact I have always enjoyed doing flash points more than operations anyway. Heck I can go back and do old missions with old characters and get a little bit of CxP like that too.

 

With all the changes it does not really take all that long to get crates TBH, with all the bonuses I get roughly 2-4 levels just doing a single flash-point.

 

So now you can get end game gear doing any content at all, sure its a RNG system but if you do decide to ops or warzones you have the option earn the coins and buy the one piece you may not have. Not to mention you get other stuff in the crates too. Including CxP boosts and bonuses

 

Now the best part is the 130 pieces you can buy outright. You can buy 130 gear for your alts and toss in some augments and you dont really need more than that for basic end game content anyway.

 

Just get the 130 gear and play the game and not worry about the rat race because it does not matter anyway. If you must do hard mode content then you can still earn gear with unassembled drops and components.

 

The only thing that would be a nice change would be to maybe add unassembled drops to hardmode flashpoints and up the amount of components you get for pvp.

[Sargrith]

The question is do we want to keep, or rather try and keep those we have or do we want to get back those GC drove off?

 

If the only goal is to hold on, well leave GC.

 

Otherwise things need to change. If they aren’t able to add significant new content, which seems the case, then they need to attack one of the other known things that drove the game to needing server merges. And that is clearly GC. You can tweek it, “make it better” all you want but that doesn’t seem to be bringing them back in great numbers. Removing it might not either but it certainly should be tried.

[SolarSaenz]

The question is do we want to keep, or rather try and keep those we have or do we want to get back those GC drove off?

 

If the only goal is to hold on, well leave GC.

 

Otherwise things need to change. If they aren’t able to add significant new content, which seems the case, then they need to attack one of the other known things that drove the game to needing server merges. And that is clearly GC. You can tweek it, “make it better” all you want but that doesn’t seem to be bringing them back in great numbers. Removing it might not either but it certainly should be tried.

 

Some time ago, someone made a comment which I believes related to what you mentioned, specifically about keeping those we have.

 

This was the basic idea

Since we're in a content drought (Yes, content IS being released, but it's not nearly enough. And, the quality is questionable at best, imo), there needs to be a reason or a way to keep people busy while adding little to nothing significant. GC/CXP/RNG is a great system "from a certain point of view". Those who remain are kept on the "eternal treadmill" of GC, so that they don't get bored. It also helps minimize the truth that there's hardly anything new to do in game. Otherwise, if we had a traditional commendations system, people would gear "too fast", and then it would be too apparent that there's almost nothing new to do.

 

On paper, GC/CXP/RNG is a great system when you take into account there would be not that much to do, when you compare 5.x with 1.x, 2.x or even 3.x.

 

In implementation, this is https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/55265927/not-a-great-plan.jpg.