Skank Tank or Shank Tank imbalance

[KendraP]

I'm hardly here to defend skanking since I despise the concept despite doing it, but I think the dps output is greatly exaggerated. I regularly get out damaged by sorcs and is anyone attempting to claim they're top damage dealers? Heck despite the nerfs, mercs and snipers still largely reign supreme because of their difficulty to kill. FYI my personal opinion there would be give them some of their damage back and take away sme defensives. But that's another thread really.

 

Do Skank do too much damage for the survivability they have? Yes. Is nerfing damage the solution? No, so long as pve and pvp are linked. I don't go around running HM ops in dps gear and I need all the threat generation I can get. The simple solution is to do exactly what I've said twice on this very forum and make tank gear feasible in PvP while making dps guardian and vg not die every 10 seconds. The issue is that's not a simple "adjust a number" type problem.

 

As for the comment that only good guardian Skank out damage dps, I also said I outdamaged people who were focsed too. If you're dead you do no damage after all. I used to run vigi which at the time was literally the mid parsing dps spec and best my Skank numbers dps wise and I'm hardly the best dps around. I swapped not because of low damage output but because I got tired of dying every 15 seconds while mercy and snipers just stood at range and laughed. Slight exaggeration yes, but there is the point still.

[Totemdancer]

/nerf shank/skank tanks Edited August 29, 2017 by Totemdancer

[Stellarcrusade]

Only noobs cannot handle a skank healer pair.

[Elusive_Thing]

I'm hardly here to defend skanking since I despise the concept despite doing it, but I think the dps output is greatly exaggerated. I regularly get out damaged by sorcs and is anyone attempting to claim they're top damage dealers? Heck despite the nerfs, mercs and snipers still largely reign supreme because of their difficulty to kill. FYI my personal opinion there would be give them some of their damage back and take away sme defensives. But that's another thread really.

 

Do Skank do too much damage for the survivability they have? Yes. Is nerfing damage the solution? No, so long as pve and pvp are linked. I don't go around running HM ops in dps gear and I need all the threat generation I can get. The simple solution is to do exactly what I've said twice on this very forum and make tank gear feasible in PvP while making dps guardian and vg not die every 10 seconds. The issue is that's not a simple "adjust a number" type problem.

 

As for the comment that only good guardian Skank out damage dps, I also said I outdamaged people who were focsed too. If you're dead you do no damage after all. I used to run vigi which at the time was literally the mid parsing dps spec and best my Skank numbers dps wise and I'm hardly the best dps around. I swapped not because of low damage output but because I got tired of dying every 15 seconds while mercy and snipers just stood at range and laughed. Slight exaggeration yes, but there is the point still.

Bioware could just increase the threat multiplier that comes with the tank stance. It's just an arbitrary number, so tank damage nerfs could absolutely be compensated for. Weak argument is weak.

[KendraP]

Bioware could just increase the threat multiplier that comes with the tank stance. It's just an arbitrary number, so tank damage nerfs could absolutely be compensated for. Weak argument is weak.

 

HM and NiM raiders are already having issues meeting dps checks especially post merc nerf so you want to hurt overall group dps more?

 

You say my argument is weak and provide no reasoning. Yes they could increase the threat multiplier but that still hurts overall group dps and would make fewer players desire to tank as less damage would make soloing anything a royal pain.

 

I have given reasons for my opinion everywhere, the reason tanking does so much damage in PvP is due to skanking. If you make tank gear tied to survivability, most skanks will go back to tanking gear as well. Especially if they would ever address pt/guardian squishiness as a dps. Then everyone could fulfill their desired role effectively and everyone would be happy.

[Evolixe]

HM and NiM raiders are already having issues meeting dps checks especially post merc nerf so you want to hurt overall group dps more?

 

Sure, tanks jobs isn't to do damage. If the DPS is too low to kill a boss then bioware shouldve thought about that before nerfing everything into the ground.

[xMaranathax]

Shield/Absorb/Defense is working much better now than it ever has been due to the meta of damage output. No longer do we have an I/E meta, but rather an energy/kinetic damage from Mercs and Snipers.

 

That being said, I have noticed a decent survivability increase from running mitigation in PvP vs High Endurance.

 

IMO, tanks should be able to shield auto crits. This is the part that people are overlooking and why tank gear isn't worth taking.

 

Also, adjust Mastery to benefit tank damage more than it does for the dps classes.

[KendraP]

My opinion comes from a place where the only guardian spec I haven't done in PvP is focus. I've tanked, skanked, and dps with vigi. I'm also a tank main, so I admit my desire to not have a dps nerf is a bit personal as well.

 

That said, I've received criticism from others for continuing to run warding b mods rather than lethal mods. The other tank runs the full lethal mod, not even the b version. Note this is for pve and he's a shadow.

 

There is little enough reason to tank as it is. In PvP dps can guard, badly albeit but they can do it. Sm FP are solo, why run a tank (or worse a healer lol)? Veteran mode FP are the old tacticals here a healer is useful but a tank completely unnecessary. MM (or the old HM) is the only place that still requires tanks in FP world. In ops most of the SM can be solo tanked. I've done it both as the tank and a fake tank vigi guardian. This is greatly deterrent towards developing tanks because why bother if all you're doing is resulting in less damage? I had a FP where i queued as a tank. The dps kept pulling before me, found it highly amusing when I asked them to wait and the healer kept them alive. So I swapped to vigi. No one so much as noticed.

 

I also don't see them back tracking on the nerfs any time soon. And I'm not asking for a buff to tank damage by any stretch of the imagination. I'm asking for the spec to work as intended. Because, as someone who had pvp on guardians in all roles I find skanking vs pure tanking to have little difference in survivability and obviously do more damage and thereby increase my teams odds of winning more by skanking. Note that I would love to address the why but it's really a case of how it feels playing Skank vs tank than anything because i really don't bother with the theory beyond the absolute basics.

[Elusive_Thing]

HM and NiM raiders are already having issues meeting dps checks especially post merc nerf so you want to hurt overall group dps more?

 

You say my argument is weak and provide no reasoning. Yes they could increase the threat multiplier but that still hurts overall group dps and would make fewer players desire to tank as less damage would make soloing anything a royal pain.

 

I have given reasons for my opinion everywhere, the reason tanking does so much damage in PvP is due to skanking. If you make tank gear tied to survivability, most skanks will go back to tanking gear as well. Especially if they would ever address pt/guardian squishiness as a dps. Then everyone could fulfill their desired role effectively and everyone would be happy.

What do you mean I provided no reasoning? My previous message literally started with the reasoning.

 

Soloing anything? Most mobs die in a few globals anyway, so it's hardly a big issue. Moreover, my point was that nerfing tank damage is perfectly possible without having a devastating impact on PvE. If your DPS checks absolutely need all that tank damage (which is not that impressive in PvE), maybe your DPS need to improve their performance. That's what NiM raiding is about, improving and pushing harder. Most groups are absolutely supposed to struggle with that content. I think that's why it used to be called Nightmare to begin with it.

 

And yes, using DPS gear as a tank results in more damage. I think that is quite obvious.

[Caeliux]

I made this thread on my other account due to the combat team knowing the existence of tanks being able to wear dps gear, and past where dps could put guard on.

 

I think all your post is viable and wanna thank Evolixe for his wonderful input since after all he is a old player and is very knowledgeable on class balance in this game. If there was a vote current he would be my number #1 along with Snave as class reps.

 

Anywho, I will repost the link to the conversation between Snave and Musco.

 

Link to interview Snave and Musco skip to 24:20

 

@Musco

 

Would love feedback on this discussion again man.

 

-Caeliux

Edited September 5, 2017 by Caeliux

[supertimtaf]

Along with Snave

 

Aouch, that must hurt.

 

As for the discussion you linked, the thing that bothers me about it is that it's Musco who talks. Not the class balance guy. Musco is nice and all, but he's a community manager. I doubt he has the knowledge to really answer these questions. He even said that his only time on the game was spent on the GTN. This kind of interview isn't worth much imo, because we don't know what the guy who does all these changes think.

Also, I don't agree with all the question asked, but it would make sense for Snave to ask questions about things that bother him personally, like everyone would do.

 

Still, the next roadmap is coming soon, maybe we'll have an info about tank balance here ? Although I think it is unlikely. ^^'

[Caeliux]

 

As for the discussion you linked, the thing that bothers me about it is that it's Musco who talks. Not the class balance guy. Musco is nice and all, but he's a community manager. I doubt he has the knowledge to really answer these questions. He even said that his only time on the game was spent on the GTN. This kind of interview isn't worth much imo, because we don't know what the guy who does all these changes think.

Also, I don't agree with all the question asked, but it would make sense for Snave to ask questions about things that bother him personally, like everyone would do.

 

I agree with you, Musco is a nice guy and I think he is really trying. Snave asked him some really important balance questions where Musco was struggling to come out with anything that could give a glimmer of any direction. Sadly hearing discussions of balance issues and they KNOW tanks are not where they need to be indicates to me after a year they still have not figured out a way for tanks in this game to function properly with gear in pvp in the current 5.4.

 

Ever since expertise was taken away and bolster was added, and mastery became the new stat tanks has not been in a great place at all. Also not to mention, dps geared tank being allowed and finally they took guard stance away from dps, so a band-aid did happen on that..

 

Frustrating..

Edited September 5, 2017 by Caeliux

[supertimtaf]

I agree with you, Musco is a nice guy and I think he is really trying. Snave asked him some really important balance questions where Musco was struggling to come out with anything that could give a glimmer of any direction. Sadly hearing discussions of balance issues and they KNOW tanks are not where they need to be indicates to me after a year they still have not figured out a way for tanks in this game to function properly with gear in pvp in the current 5.4.

 

Ever since expertise was taken away and bolster was added, and mastery became the new stat tanks has not been in a great place at all. Also not to mention, dps geared tank being allowed and finally they took guard stance away from dps, so a band-aid did happen on that..

 

Frustrating..

 

Well yeah, the fact that they clearly don't know how to balance tank is frustrating. It's one of the reason that made me respec dps for PvE also. And still, I find it funny to see that my friends who play PvE sin tank still use Lethal mod B on NiM and HM Ops, because the payout is greater than the usual defense-based mod. As long as you know the mechanics you won't have any issue if you're using defensives correctly.

 

A thing that could be interesting, would be to eventually improve the efficiency of tank stat, like Defense or else and make all tank-based ability (taunt, guard, intercede) be more effective when used with defensive stat. Not if used while playing tank, because it won't solve the skank problem, but giving another use to "Defense" could be interesting for game balance.

[Caeliux]

Well yeah, the fact that they clearly don't know how to balance tank is frustrating. It's one of the reason that made me respec dps for PvE also. And still, I find it funny to see that my friends who play PvE sin tank still use Lethal mod B on NiM and HM Ops, because the payout is greater than the usual defense-based mod. As long as you know the mechanics you won't have any issue if you're using defensives correctly.

 

A thing that could be interesting, would be to eventually improve the efficiency of tank stat, like Defense or else and make all tank-based ability (taunt, guard, intercede) be more effective when used with defensive stat. Not if used while playing tank, because it won't solve the skank problem, but giving another use to "Defense" could be interesting for game balance.

 

I think making defense rating should be implemented. Take away shield and absorb rating and apply a one stat defense rating. Then tie that into the shield equipped where mitigation comes from defensive rating where you can't crit a tank and all sudden the word meat shield would apply.

 

I mean its too spread out and needs simplified. Have a base rating cap for tanks to meet the requirement.

 

Funny thing is all sudden pvp would change where tanks and healers would need focused better, like it should be. Games of attrition would happen.

[Bobby_McDonald]

Why do skank tanks have such a high dps in PvP? Because of their AOE. So it would be easy to nerf it without hurting PvE by just doing what they already did to Smashers: make their Aoes work differently in PvP and only do full damage on the targeted enemie, while all others in range get reduced damage.

 

At the same time ofc they have to make fulltanks more viable and increase survivability of PT and Jugg dps.

Edited September 5, 2017 by Bobby_McDonald

[Thaladan]

even if skanktank is a nonsense imho, there are more problems to solve in PvP before.

 

and at least this creates diversity.

Edited September 5, 2017 by Thaladan

[Caeliux]

even if skanktank is a nonsense imho, there are more problems to solve in PvP before.

 

and at least this creates diversity.

 

Well its a created diversity that shouldn't be in play imho.

 

I mean, I get why people do it cause of current state, but non the less shouldn't be in this game..

Edited September 5, 2017 by Caeliux

[Glocko]

I am guessing this is a thread about nerfing Mercs

[Caeliux]

I am guessing this is a thread about nerfing Mercs

 

Nope. Its about fixing tanks in general.

[Glocko]

Can't fix tanks if Mercs, Ops, Sins, Marauders, Sorc keep self heals..... Remove dps self heals then deal with tanks. These threads are started and continued by The aforementioned classes even though they are all OP compared. To Sin, PT, and Jugg. I guess being at the top of the charts is just not enough.....

[Glocko]

Can't fix tanks if Mercs, Ops, Marauders, Sorc keep self heals..... Remove dps self heals then deal with tanks. These threads are started and continued by The aforementioned classes even though they are all OP compared. To Sin, PT, and Jugg. I guess being at the top of the charts is just not enough..... Edited September 6, 2017 by Glocko

[Schoock]

Sorc OP compared. To Sin, PT, and Jugg.

 

It's only 7:31 AM and I've already learnt something today.

 

Marauders keep self heals.....

 

#maraselfhealsop

Edited September 6, 2017 by Schoock

[KendraP]

Geez people really do want to beat a dead horse here...

 

As a long time tank main in both pve and pvp I hate skanking. Yet I'm doing it anyway. Because it really is the only way to play guardians and not want to cry. I have done dps, full tank, and skanking on the class since 5.0 so I'm as qualified as anyone to talk about the class.

 

If we're talking dps VG and guardians are hardly the best of the best. If no one focuses you and you have a devoted healer that's also not being focused (or at least, not enough to keep them from healing you) then yes you can put out good numbers. If we add defensives to the mix, dps VG and guardian go down fast. I'd say VG was worse because the Guardian self heal is very useful, provided you're taking consistent damage.

 

On the tank front, make my tank gear do something for me and I'll go back to full tanking. It's that simple. I don't really know the theory beyond what I've read, but I do know from experience having my full tank gear means less survival than what I get from my extra health dps gear.

 

If anyone is arguing sorcs are op, I don't see how that's even an argument... they're in the same league as VG and guardian dps wise. Focus them in seconds. It's merc and sniper defensive that are op on the dps front.

[Liquor]

there's nothing wrong with tanks.

 

move onto a topic that matters people

[Caeliux]

there's nothing wrong with tanks.

 

move onto a topic that matters people

 

I assume you have no tanking experience, and if you do please elaborate how tank is just fine with full tank gear in pvp.