Skank Tank or Shank Tank imbalance

[supertimtaf]

How many skanks does it take to shank a skank tank if a skank tank could shank?

 

Why did I laughed at this. xD

[DenariusJay]

Why did I laughed at this. xD

 

Because you have a soul, something some people on this forum lack nowadays xD

[Caeliuxrules]

Because you have a soul, something some people on this forum lack nowadays xD

 

I sold mine like Mr Krabs did for a penny. 😂

[supertimtaf]

Because you have a soul, something some people on this forum lack nowadays xD

Woah, you mean good people still exist online ?

And here I thought they were an endangered species.

[Severith]

That's his argument, and I told him off.

 

Armor reduces all damage, except internal and elemental. It's the reason your abilities hit so much less on tanks even if you do hit them. Of course the other things I listed also take part. But armor is by far the biggest influencer there.

 

So, dps jugs and dps pts are really tough then, and hard to kill right? They're in heavy armor.

 

Nope. By far the easiest to kill in pvp. Despite having a higher armor rating than most other dps.

 

Armor doesn't matter nearly as much as dcds.

[Sargrith]

Lol yeah, it used to be OK back then but pt tank was always 3rd choice. Sad, cause it really is fun.

 

Back in the day the most viable guardian tank was a hybrid as they put some key defenses in the dps tree....and they had massive threat control issues so more dps helped there too. There was a time you saw a true guardian tank using overhead slash because he needed it to get to some defenses and to maintain threat.

 

Guardian defenses are a problem because their reflect is nothing special as many dps now have a similar or better version and their heal was not scaled correctly so it heals less then it should. And both of those can be bypassed by the use of AoE attacks or simply stun the Guardian and their defenses will drop before they are free. Guardians also have no CC protection outside of a utility that gives them a short bit of knockback protection if they leap at someone. Vanguards do have hydraulic override which grants them KB protection and that is really nice. Shadows have at least one way to be CC immune for short periods and maybe with a utility two.

[Severith]

Okay m8

 

This discussion is over and you have made a complete idiot of yourself. Congratulations.

 

Hover over "Damage reduction" instead of "Armor Rating" and you'll see that internal damage and elemental damage are not the same, and are tracked separately.

 

Not sure why you got triggered over me pointing out they were different.

[Sargrith]

So, dps jugs and dps pts are really tough then, and hard to kill right? They're in heavy armor.

 

Nope. By far the easiest to kill in pvp. Despite having a higher armor rating than most other dps.

 

Armor doesn't matter nearly as much as dcds.

 

Heavy armor on a dps isn't great, its good don't get me wrong but not great. I think 35% DR or so. Medium might be 25% and I am not sure about light. Also the amount of defense goes up with the lighter armor you wear to help off set that.

 

But the DCD of the two classes are very weak compared to other classes.

[Evolixe]

So, dps jugs and dps pts are really tough then, and hard to kill right? They're in heavy armor.

 

Nope. By far the easiest to kill in pvp. Despite having a higher armor rating than most other dps.

 

Armor doesn't matter nearly as much as dcds.

 

I never argued this. I said that armor is definitely a factor. I didn't say it was deciding.

Most of the time you'll be fighting through peoples defensives and CC.

Juggs definitely take less raw damage than say an Operative, but they can't avoid it nearly as well.

 

But this is what makes Armor such a powerful stat for tanks. Because tanks aren't about avoiding damage.

They are about soaking it. And that is why "DPS tanks" don't take halfway nearly the same amount of damage as their DPS counterparts even without using any cooldowns.

 

And they aren't meant to. This makes soaking possible.

 

 

That's what started this whole argument in the first place.

You said "skank" tanks would take equal damage to DPS without cooldowns, and that is just plain false.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Evolixe

[Kurj]

My DR is at around 50%. So, does that mean I only take 50% of the damage value of an energy-based crit?

[Evolixe]

My DR is at around 50%. So, does that mean I only take 50% of the damage value of an energy-based crit?

 

Yes.

[Severith]

I never argued this. I said that armor is definitely a factor. I didn't say it was deciding.

Most of the time you'll be fighting through peoples defensives and CC.

Juggs definitely take less raw damage than say an Operative, but they can't avoid it nearly as well.

 

But this is what makes Armor such a powerful stat for tanks. Because tanks aren't about avoiding damage.

They are about soaking it. And that is why "DPS tanks" don't take halfway nearly the same amount of damage as their DPS counterparts even without using any cooldowns.

 

And they aren't meant to. This makes soaking possible.

 

 

That's what started this whole argument in the first place.

You said "skank" tanks would take equal damage to DPS without cooldowns, and that is just plain false.

 

I never said that a dps takes equal damage to a skank tank without cooldowns.

 

I said they were just as easy to kill. Hence your confusion. Most dps have things going for them that go beyond their dcds. Things like kiting, mobility, offheals, line of sight tactics, range, constant rolling around like operatives. Cover mechanics that prevent leaps. The dps that don't have those tricks are called jugs and pts, and they die quick.

 

A skank tank can't do any of those things. A skank tank with no dcds is a walking meatbag. Yeah, they have passive abilities to take less damage, but they are just as easy, if not easier to kill than plenty of dps who still have tricks up their sleeves when the dcds have played out.

 

That's what started the argument in the first place. You imagined I wrote "just as much damage" when in reality I wrote "just as easy to kill". It's a huge difference.

 

But that's what you do right? That's how you start arguments, and that's how you argue them. You blur in your head what you read, then you blur facts to make statements that are inherently misleading.

[Evolixe]

I never said that a dps takes equal damage to a skank tank without cooldowns.

 

I said they were just as easy to kill. Hence your confusion. Most dps have things going for them that go beyond their dcds. Things like kiting, mobility, offheals, line of sight tactics, range, constant rolling around like operatives. Cover mechanics that prevent leaps. The dps that don't have those tricks are called jugs and pts, and they die quick.

 

A skank tank can't do any of those things. A skank tank with no dcds is a walking meatbag. Yeah, they have passive abilities to take less damage, but they are just as easy, if not easier to kill than plenty of dps who still have tricks up their sleeves when the dcds have played out.

 

That's what started the argument in the first place. You imagined I wrote "just as much damage" when in reality I wrote "just as easy to kill". It's a huge difference.

 

But that's what you do right? That's how you start arguments, and that's how you argue them. You blur in your head what you read, then you blur facts to make statements that are inherently misleading.

 

What? There is nothing that Deception has... that Darkness doesn't have after cooldowns are exhausted.

Absolutely nothing. Same goes for Juggs. Leaps and Mad Dash aren't spec exclusive.

 

You might not be able to fullfill your chosen role while you are trying to survive. But guess what.. neither can a DPS.

It's not any sort of disadvantage. It's the nature of the game that applies to everyone.

[Severith]

What? There is nothing that Deception has... that Darkness doesn't have after cooldowns are exhausted.

Absolutely nothing. Same goes for Juggs. Leaps and Mad Dash aren't spec exclusive.

 

You might not be able to fullfill your chosen role while you are trying to survive. But guess what.. neither can a DPS.

It's not any sort of disadvantage. It's the nature of the game that applies to everyone.

 

So no apology on purposefully misquoting me? That's expected.

 

I also thought you said the discussion was over? So why are you still discussing?

 

Deception has a soft cc on a 15 second cool down, 30 meter range. Deception can easily cc someone and then use the time to break line of sight. No jug or pt can even begin to do something like that, without leaping to the target, using a 1 min cooldown, and then trying to run away from there. It's called low slash, you might want to try it. It's an extremely valuable tool that deception has, and it wins a lot of fights when used correctly.

 

PS: I agree with dps jugs not having any tricks up their sleeves, which is why I said so in the post above. They're in the same boat as PT dps. They just die after their dcds are gone.

Edited August 17, 2017 by Severith

[Evolixe]

I thought I was supposed to be out of cooldowns? Low Slash isn't spammable you know.

And it is used on cooldown more often than it is not.

Chances are that by the time you want to run away, you won't have it nor will it have any effect if you do since it only takes out 1 target briefly. If that target is even left alone.

 

When you are fighting your last breath you need your team. No matter if you are a DPS or a Tank.

And you will no longer be DPSing, or Tanking, for that matter.

 

 

You twist and turn this argument in your own favor whenever you see fit. That's not how this works.

Anyways, I'm going to try and catch some sleep before I have to work again tomorrow.

[KendraP]

Are we really still going on about this subject?

 

First, yes skanks are OP in terms of damage/life.

 

Second, no skanks do not do MORE damage overall than a dps spec. It's just more survivable so people that don't enjoy dying constantly *cough* me *cough* are inclined to do it in the current meta. I don't know much about shadows outside of pve tanking so i'm not going to talk about them much. I do know guardian and VG dps are squishy as crap. Fix this and guess what? people that want to dps will go dps.

 

Third, current snipers and mercs are basically the classes that encouraged me to swap from vigi to skank. I was supposed to be a heavy armor wearing, lightsaber wielding, force to be reckoned with. Basically obi wan kenobi. Instead, I got squishy, die 10 time a match crap. If i'd wanted to be a glass cannon, I'd have rolled a sentinel. Oh by the way, sentinels do more damage with arguably better defensives too (for pvp).

 

Fourth, tank gear currently does little. I have experimented with both in pvp. my survivability difference in tank gear was practically meaningless. Thus i endurance stacked dps mods/enh/etc and went for being unkillable by sheer numbers. dps because why not if tank gear isn't going to mean crap. So fix this and i'd be more than willing to go back to tanking full on.

 

Fifth, if there is a dps running around guarding people (by dps i mean say vigi or focus guardians for example not defense with dps gear which is what i call a skank), he is squishy and all that needs to be done is to kill him. If you want to make it faster focus his healer and devote one dps to him. He'll melt or drop the guard, either way you succeeded. I personally would like to see it so that only tank specced players can guard again, because I want more encouragement to run a tank, not less.

 

It is as simple as that. Fix gear, fix balance, and make it so only tanks have guard. unfortunately none of these are necessarily simple tasks.

[supertimtaf]

Are we really still going on about this subject?

 

First, yes skanks are OP in terms of damage/life.

 

Second, no skanks do not do MORE damage overall than a dps spec. It's just more survivable so people that don't enjoy dying constantly *cough* me *cough* are inclined to do it in the current meta. I don't know much about shadows outside of pve tanking so i'm not going to talk about them much. I do know guardian and VG dps are squishy as crap. Fix this and guess what? people that want to dps will go dps.

 

Third, current snipers and mercs are basically the classes that encouraged me to swap from vigi to skank. I was supposed to be a heavy armor wearing, lightsaber wielding, force to be reckoned with. Basically obi wan kenobi. Instead, I got squishy, die 10 time a match crap. If i'd wanted to be a glass cannon, I'd have rolled a sentinel. Oh by the way, sentinels do more damage with arguably better defensives too (for pvp).

 

Fourth, tank gear currently does little. I have experimented with both in pvp. my survivability difference in tank gear was practically meaningless. Thus i endurance stacked dps mods/enh/etc and went for being unkillable by sheer numbers. dps because why not if tank gear isn't going to mean crap. So fix this and i'd be more than willing to go back to tanking full on.

 

Fifth, if there is a dps running around guarding people (by dps i mean say vigi or focus guardians for example not defense with dps gear which is what i call a skank), he is squishy and all that needs to be done is to kill him. If you want to make it faster focus his healer and devote one dps to him. He'll melt or drop the guard, either way you succeeded. I personally would like to see it so that only tank specced players can guard again, because I want more encouragement to run a tank, not less.

 

It is as simple as that. Fix gear, fix balance, and make it so only tanks have guard. unfortunately none of these are necessarily simple tasks.

 

I basically agree with most of what you said, but I'll just ask why give guard exclusively to tank ?

I mean, then remove the ability to heal other when playing dps operative/merc/sorcerer then.

It just kill the concept of teamplay.

 

Instead, making it so that Defensive Stat affect how well you guard should be the solution, to prevent a dps that shield somebody to be too much effective, rendering the need of a tank useless. And it would only bring more value to tank gear instead of dps gear.

[Sargrith]

I basically agree with most of what you said, but I'll just ask why give guard exclusively to tank ?

I mean, then remove the ability to heal other when playing dps operative/merc/sorcerer then.

It just kill the concept of teamplay.

 

Instead, making it so that Defensive Stat affect how well you guard should be the solution, to prevent a dps that shield somebody to be too much effective, rendering the need of a tank useless. And it would only bring more value to tank gear instead of dps gear.

 

To a degree many do think they should remove or extreme reduce the amount that dps who can heal actually heal for. Seeing a dps op hit 1 million healing is an issue. The concept of team play would in some points of veiw be enhanced by this, it would force everyone to rely more on the healer for actual healing and more on the tank for actual damage mitigation .

[supertimtaf]

To a degree many do think they should remove or extreme reduce the amount that dps who can heal actually heal for. Seeing a dps op hit 1 million healing is an issue. The concept of team play would in some points of veiw be enhanced by this, it would force everyone to rely more on the healer for actual healing and more on the tank for actual damage mitigation .

 

Problem being now the matchmaking that doesn't care about this and generally put things like 2 healer on a team and none in the other. Or 3 skank in one team and no tank in the other...

 

I'm okay with what you're saying IF the matchmaking was done properly, which we all know it isn't. :/

[Sargrith]

Problem being now the matchmaking that doesn't care about this and generally put things like 2 healer on a team and none in the other. Or 3 skank in one team and no tank in the other...

 

I'm okay with what you're saying IF the matchmaking was done properly, which we all know it isn't. :/

 

The current system has so many problems its hard to cherry pick and fix one without breaking things. Fix skank tanks by making them not work, and you just about remove all Guardians and Vangards form ranked play. Fix healing and certain classes like Sentinel suffer because they lack their own self healing. Lots of problems need to be fixed and many need to be fixed at the same time without wrecking some part of the game.

[supertimtaf]

The current system has so many problems its hard to cherry pick and fix one without breaking things. Fix skank tanks by making them not work, and you just about remove all Guardians and Vangards form ranked play. Fix healing and certain classes like Sentinel suffer because they lack their own self healing. Lots of problems need to be fixed and many need to be fixed at the same time without wrecking some part of the game.

 

Well, the matchmaking isn't really the most urgent problem imo

 

We wouldn't suffer of it so much it the game was somewhat balanced.

 

Urgent matters are Utility changes, Tank PvP mechanics updates and balance between healing and damage. (These two parts must be done at the same time. Nerfing healing is doable, as well as buffing it. But an increase to dps done by dps class could also make it for some difficult part).

 

Bioware is currently trying to fix the Damage and Healing problem. Are they doing it right ? I personally don't think so but at least they are trying.

 

The most important thing for now is to make sure they understand what we want about tank balance and DcD changes... To -at least- reduce the amount of error they'll make.

[Arlanon]

I was soloing the Oricon Heroic +2 Daily, fighting a White Star Commander, when my health dropped to around 25% over the span of about 4 seconds. Realizing that I'd forgotten to put Vette in Heal Stance, and had left her in DPS Stance, I Choked, ran, and left her there to die, valiantly covering my escape as I hooted and hollared like a Japanese Schoolgirl. I got about 50 feet away, and was about to instruct her to disengage, when the darndest thing happened.

 

She solo'd him.

 

GG Heavy Armor.

[Caeliuxrules]

Well, the matchmaking isn't really the most urgent problem imo

 

We wouldn't suffer of it so much it the game was somewhat balanced.

 

Urgent matters are Utility changes, Tank PvP mechanics updates and balance between healing and damage. (These two parts must be done at the same time. Nerfing healing is doable, as well as buffing it. But an increase to dps done by dps class could also make it for some difficult part).

 

Bioware is currently trying to fix the Damage and Healing problem. Are they doing it right ? I personally don't think so but at least they are trying.

 

The most important thing for now is to make sure they understand what we want about tank balance and DcD changes... To -at least- reduce the amount of error they'll make.

 

Great post. I disagree match making needs fix ASAP forsure.

 

Utilities for sure needs fixed for tanks and heals to balance things out as well.

[supertimtaf]

Great post. I disagree match making needs fix ASAP forsure.

 

Utilities for sure needs fixed for tanks and heals to balance things out as well.

 

Well, the issue with healers could have been resolved if DPS were putting out a few more numbers than they're doing now.

 

The problem with BW current target dps is that it is too low in order to make things works, both in PvP and in PvE.

 

In PvE, you got some hard dps check to meet, and not every class can meet them for now, and less will be after the full nerfs gets released. I don't see why lowering the dps output is the solution. They nerfed healers because it was too strong... Yeah, maybe it was too strong. But did it really need to be nerfed this heavily ? I don't think so. For both PvP and PvE an increase to dps output could solve some problems. It will be harder for healers to maintain peoples without being nerfed to the ground, and it could still allow people to pass the required dps check in PvE.

 

But hey, it seems that I'm not qualified enough for this job. So I won't say anything more

[kissingaiur]

Well, the issue with healers could have been resolved if DPS were putting out a few more numbers than they're doing now.

 

The problem with BW current target dps is that it is too low in order to make things works, both in PvP and in PvE.

 

In PvE, you got some hard dps check to meet, and not every class can meet them for now, and less will be after the full nerfs gets released. I don't see why lowering the dps output is the solution. They nerfed healers because it was too strong... Yeah, maybe it was too strong. But did it really need to be nerfed this heavily ? I don't think so. For both PvP and PvE an increase to dps output could solve some problems. It will be harder for healers to maintain peoples without being nerfed to the ground, and it could still allow people to pass the required dps check in PvE.

 

But hey, it seems that I'm not qualified enough for this job. So I won't say anything more

 

I'm 100% in favor of them nerfing sorc heals the way they did. At first I thought it was harsh but all it did was increase the skill gap of good and bad players. Things die in pvp, good players still make it work and are still pulling good numbers. Healers are right now the most balanced in pvp then they have been in a very long time.