GSF Discussion: Friction Points

[Costello]

I guess the biggest friction point is that GSF has been ignored for the last 3 years and it really isn't going to see anywhere near the work needed to make it viable.

 

The next friction point would be that it is PvP only. Maybe this goes into learning cure or class balance or why people aren't playing. For every kill I get someone else has to die, so unless you like being a loser for everyone having a good experience someone else must be having a bad one. Since the better someone is the more they will win, you have a situation where anyone joining GSF is going to be destroyed and probably decide that was a waste of time and not to bother again.

 

Look at the PvP (ground) community and bolster and wanting gear taken out of the mix and then look at the difference between my full outfitter gunship and that fresh players and then think to a pvp (ground) taking a basic noob character into ranked pvp and how much fun they would have.

 

Equally its utterly pointless, the unassembled parts that have been introduced 5.0 may make a slight difference but the fleet and ship requisition is worthless in the wider game and once you have maxed your ships its worthless in GSF as well.

 

While the control and ships fall a long way short of Jump to Lightspeed (the entire experience does) which while not difficult to use never really gave the experience of sitting in a tie fighter killing rebel scum.

 

Bottom line though, your not going to put the work in to make it viable, its been 3 years since anything has been even looked at (despite a post saying things were being looked at). Its a subset of PvP which has the most minimal impact of the wider game (hell even in the story when you meet the Imperial Admiral in Kotfe she doesn't even realize I'm a fleet admiral but remembers I did some tactical flashpoints) and exists only in a bubble for the length of a match and then forgotten so its not like you can add a map and tweak fighters and make it suddenly relevant. Hell given the balancing of classes I don't even think you have a metric to work out how to balance it.

[Soljin]

Friction points:

 

Well I have attempted to play GSF a total of 3 times so far. I was on a long break when it came out so it had been in game awhile by the time I tried it.

 

That said all three attempts ended with one match complete.

 

-Within each match I was completely decimated in what seemed like a couple seconds by every opponent I came up against.

 

-Acquiring gear and optimization seemed hard to approach and with no way to practice I pretty much gave up trying.

 

-It seems likely I will never get into GSF at all unless practice matches against NPC ships are introduced. Nothing fancy but a way to test different things and get a feel for how to move and attack etc...

 

Concerning rewards I think making all game achieved rewards more interesting and frankly higher quality is a must.

 

Basically start sharing the good stuff with players instead of hoarding it for the CM, speaking of friction points...

Edited July 7, 2017 by Soljin

[DarthVandalism]

1. Is the learning curve too steep to get into?

It does seem overwhelming when you first start out, and combined with the fact you are being paired up against some incredible pilots you just get lost, get killed, respawn, repeat. It's not fun for new players and has caused many that I know to not bother.

 

2. Is ship balance preventing you from playing?

Not me, I still play, I just gripe about it incessantly to anyone that'll listen. Please please please do something with Strikes. The other ship types are relatively balanced compared to one another, There are times when the Gun Ship or the Bomber does rule, but I have seen GS walls and Bomber balls taken down by a solid Scout pilot. But Strikes have nothing going for them right now. I'd list the suggestions but, I think everyone else has pretty much said what they'd do to fix Strikes and there's multiple threads about this already.

 

On that note, I think seeing possibly some options for a Strike/Scout only map or scenario might be fun. Players used to have Strike Nights on Ebon Hawk at least, if I remember, but that didn't work out very well cause there was no way to enforce it in the engine, and there was always someone who refused to fly a scout or strike fighter or someone who just didn't know we were trying to have a good dog fight.

 

3.Are you not playing because you feel GSF needs something new to bring you back in?

I play, but.... yes there is a lot of things that could make me go from really liking it to absolutely loving it. Throwing some ideas out here knowing that a lot of the other players won't care what I have to say, but maybe it will get some discussions going. If even one of my ideas gets talked about well... I call that a success.

 

1. It'd be great to have some PvE. That right there would cut down on the learning curve issue. Maybe a series of solo missions against PvE, then maybe some GSF PvE missions that are for 4 man, 8 man, then 12 man scenarios. Give people a chance to figure out the controls, learn an orientation in an environment with no solid up or down, also a chance to learn teamwork. How to be a passable wing man before being tossed to the wolves. I could see some possible ideas from protecting bombers and strikes on a capital ship trench run, to Scouts racing to objectives while Gun ships are providing them cover. I don't know if these ideas are possible in the engine, but it sounds fun. Maybe GSF Ops. *shrugs*

 

2. GSF is the first game in anywhere, were I've really liked PvP. I mean usually, not a pvp person don't care for it but in GSF it's really fun. But, lets compare the number of maps and scenarios in GSF to ground PvP... Yeah I'm not going into exact numbers but, lets say we need more maps and scenarios.

 

3. More weeklies and daily missions to complete. Might make it so I have some real motivation to fly beyond my first 3½ - 7 matches, depending on how I am doing.

 

4. Some Imp strike fighters that are not butt ugly... and some premium ships that are not resized versions of shuttles and tramp freighters you find parked on Nar Shaddaa. Honestly, one of the biggest things keeping me from buying more premium ships in the cartel market is this. It's just lazy, so come on there's got to be someone out there with some good fighter concepts that can be skinned in game. I know using the neutral designs meant you could save some money by making said ship available for both sides, but still.... I'd probably buy a really good looking Imp Strike on the assumption it performs well, But there isn't one.

 

5. Matchmaking issues?

Match maker screws the pooch occasionally but, overall it's not been a huge issue for me. I have heard people suggest cross faction alliance queues but, that holds no appeal to me at least. I personally like Flying for the Empire or the Republic, and I am not that excited about the alliance. Here's what I have noticed though, the more ships you have mastered or close to mastered, the more likely you are to get skipped in Queue unless you are teamed. I get it, it gives the n00bs a chance to play; It also means you likely have a team of veteran aces going up against a bunch of solo queued new pilots. The results are predictable. Letting the Vets have their queue independently without worrying about being skipped would probably fix a lot of the current Matchmaking issues. At least in Imp v Imp, or Pub v Pub.

 

The fact that GSF is character based and not Legacy?

So, If I am being honest I never thought about this at all until I read it here but now that the gates been opened.... YES PLEASE! Make it Legacy. Oh gods yes make it legacy.

 

While you're at it, can you make social ranks legacy too... I mean, off topic but tossing it out there.

 

It's something of a pain in the rump to have to level up my ships every time I roll a new character. I supose the Imp ships should stay Imp side and the pub ones Pub but otherwise... yeah some legacy options here would be great. Even if only using tokens to transfer around GSF currency.

[Applejacxs]

Not big into anymore but here are some of my casual takes.

 

Create a second beginner instance/training area with AI targets that all doing possible sceneries things you may find in GSF objective match.

 

For example, a Railgun drone sitting on top of Satellite. Or a drone doing random evasive maneuvers around the map and so on.

 

Create a GSF Veteran instance like the Outlaw land in Tatooine for people to go while there waiting on ques. It will be like entering into a PVP zone so people are free to fire on each other if they so, please.

 

Change of the Satellites how the look so that each one would have to be defended differently the other. For example one, you can drop the fins off so there are next to no hiding points on it.

 

Deathmatch can be really boring when people go heavy Gunship almost unplayable, to be honest.

Personal belief without hitting them with a major nerf on railguns. Is cutting gunship range to 10k and extending everyone's missile range to the same would be the best way to combat stuff like this. You can all also add a rail component to gunships that will give them back that range but at the cost of say shields, engine or armor

[DarkSaberMaster]

Reasons I don't play GSF:

 

1.) It's not really legacy wide. I have over 20 characters.

2.) It NEVER pops on Harbinger. Maybe I'm missing out but I don't ever see it pop.

3.) There is no PvE aspect to it. No exploration. No missions. No free flight. No transportation, etc.

4.) The ships don't have interiors that I can walk around in and explore. Invite friends, etc. (See JTL).

5.) There are no multi-player ships with turrets like JTL.

 

Space is supposed to be BIG. A little exploration would go a long way. Multi-player ships. PvE missions. You got me.

 

My answers also.

[Intoxicated_Ant]

I think balance is a main issue. One one toon i have a tricked out ship that will decimate. I can easily hit the top of thr leader boards. But on my new character, i can takr aroind 2-3 seconds of sustained damage and i'm gone. I love GSF but the pain and grind to get my new ship to a survivable state, let alone competative ia a mjor turn off. Its like having a PvP match with a lvl 10 vs a lvl 40. Theres no chance or hope pf fun.

[Deewe]

As to put some perspective I spent hundreds of hours in X-Wing, Tie Fighter up to X-Win alliance games.

Even played

to some extend.

.

• The first friction point is there's no joystick support in GSF. Simply put it blows 90% of the fun out.
  
• Second point is the flight dynamics are bettter in other space sims I played
  
• The UI is not as good as what we had in the X-Wing series
  
• There's no PVE training ground/map
  
• The game is more about owning the best ship than skill and team play
  
• Nothing beats the i-muse sound system
  

.

X-Wing vs Tie Fighter was 10 times better in terms of PvP space sim experience

 

Finally I really miss the tailored space missions from PVE X-Wing and up

 

All in all, as a space sim fan, apart ditching this and redoing it from scratch there's not much you can do.

You can plaster it though I'm afraid it will remain a below average space sim.

 

I really feel sad both the tunnel shooter and the PvP part were butchered.

Edited July 7, 2017 by Deewe

[Montaag]

I've been playing SWTOR on and off since launch but just discovered GSF in the last month or so and love it. I'm not super experienced by any stretch, but I'm also interested enough that I didn't give up entirely when it got discouraging. I've made use of the many great community resources to learn the basics, and have clawed my way from useless to mediocre. In essence, I'm currently in the process of pushing through the "friction points." Here's my feedback:

 

There is essentially one friction point to GSF: the experience of starting your first couple matches having no idea what you're doing and no idea what is going on around you. All you know for sure is you're dead. Again. You can label it learning curve, but there are several angles you can approach this from that would alleviate this problem. Specifically:

 

1) A much more in depth tutorial and/or some kind of space to practice the basics. Start with the fact that the existing tutorial is not remotely intuitively accessed. But even once you've found it, the tutorial teaches you to steer and shoot and not much else. Need to be able to practice, at minimum:

- hitting moving targets

- avoiding getting shot at!

- introduction to abilities

- introduction to each ship type (sniping in a Gunship, laying mines in a Bomber, etc)

- a space to try out newly unlocked/bought ships and components.

Some have suggested some sort of "GSF PvE" ... I like that idea, but I imagine that project is of unrealistic scale. But tutorial levels with an AI opponent that flies evasively (even if it's in a pre-determined circle), with a stationary Gunship that fires at you if/when you come into range from a certain direction (teaching you to circle around Gunships), with a satellite with live defensive turrets (so that you're not confused the first time you try to cap a satellite with no players around and end up dead, gee, what happened? <- happened to me first time) etc ... surely that is doable.

 

2) Matchmaking that prevents super stacked teams. The second time I lose a TDM match 50-10 after waiting half an hour for the Q to pop is 95% of the time the last time I Q into GSF for the evening. I'm sure I'm not alone in this. This is a tough one because GSF is sooo much about pilot skill; the true 3D dog-fighting environment of GSF and similar games has always had a high skill floor and always will. But some specific changes might help:

- Move GSF from character to Legacy oriented, at very least for matchmaking purposes. Every veteran I've met seems to have 2-4 characters per faction, per server. That's going to screw the matchmaking pooch unless it's eliminated/minimized as a factor.

- Anything that will embiggen the player pool. Cross-server Qing is probably a pipe dream, but that's what would go farthest of all.

- In a perfect world, ranked/unranked. But I'm not holding my breath.

 

3) Clearer/Simpler build options. A combination or all of the below:

- Get rid of "trap" components: buff or eliminate components that plain are terrible (e.g. Rapid Fire Lasers) and components that go against a ship's best niche (e.g. the Sting/Flashfire scout, which any experienced player will tell you should be stacking evasion, comes with Reinforced Armor stock).

- Lower the risk for trying something different. Kudos on the freer flow of ship/fleet requisition, it lowered the perceived "gear" gap for new players like me. But,once you've spent 15k ship requisition that you spent two weeks getting upgrading a component, it feels like a waste to try something else. Or worse, it dawns on you that the component you're deep into is a poor choice for your ship/build/playstyle, or just plain bad (again, Rapid Fire Lasers). Imo upgrades should be more like utility points and less like gear that you have to grind for. Make them refundable or transferable to another component, or just plain free ... something to keep it from feeling like you've been punished for making a rookie mistake.

- Streamline components. Think the change from discipline trees to the current utility points (3.0 was it?). The veterans on the GSF discord don't like this one, but I think it would help the state of GSF. Lower the amount of options while making every option significant and viable. Give each ship type and individual ship a clear role and trim whatever doesn't serve that role-- then commit to balancing them. OR Give each ship a good default build-out (Follow Stacie's guide, for example) with only the upgrades showing (not the other possible components)-- and hide the current window/view under an "Advanced" button or something similar. Maybe put it behind a GSF-specific (GSFxp? # of matches?) wall.

 

4) Make what the hell just happened clearer. Some great suggestions have already been mentioned, specifically flytext showing evades, damage reduction, etc. You know what else isn't covered in the tutorial or anywhere else?

"What is that sound?"

"Is someone targeting me?"

"Oh now there's a new sound, it's really intense! What could it mean?"

Dead.

/scene

A "death cam" would help early learning a lot, but that's probably too much to ask. Other specific elements that I only gradually came to realize were on my screen: Target of target, buffs/debuffs ... I'm sure others have been/will be mentioned. I get that there is a lot of information to transmit ... so maybe the answer isn't so much a revamped UI as see paragraph (1), better tutorials.

 

Other scattered ideas that I don't have solutions for:

- Yes, new content would go a long way to attracting players; ships are ok imo, I'm thinking maps and modes.

- De-incentivize or punish particularly frustrating behaviors. #1 is obviously self-destructing to finish matches faster. But also Gunship walls* in TDM, spawn-camping in especially lopsided matches ... I'm sure others have been/will be mentioned.

 

* Yes, I know it's fair and counterable, but for a newbies like me, it's frustrating. And if you want GSF to thrive, you know what you need more of? Newbies.

[AtlanteanDragon]

Is the learning curve too steep to get into? - well there's no proper tutorial and no area one can practice.

 

Is ship balance preventing you from playing? - no idea really I don't play GSF much to begin with so I cannot comment on this.

 

Are you not playing because you feel GSF needs something new to bring you back in? - from want I've seen yes, it NEEDS new maps (the galaxy is a very big place), modes (different types of matches, maybe even solo/group content vs NPCs), new items and cosmetics and new Ships definitely (Zakuul designed ships would be nice).

 

Matchmaking issues? - only problem I see is the amount of people doing GSF is greater on one faction then the other

 

The fact that GSF is character based and not Legacy? - this could do with parts of it being legacy like the currency and cosmetics but I think everything else should be character based

[Ramalina]

So, GSF is almost all of my playtime at this point, I may do other stuff, but it's just killing time while I wait for a match to pop, so I guess the friction points don't affect me much, but there are things I can comment on in terms of concerns you've listed.

 

Learning curve. There are two issues here, one is that GSF is a weird hybrid of multiple types of game genres in terms of interface and play skills, so you have to juggle understanding RPG mechanics, Flight Sim type 3D situational awareness and maneuvering, and FPS type point and click skills. It takes getting used to, but that's not really a huge problem.

 

The introductory experience is fairly brutal though, because if you don't seek out resources the GSF community has created, is sort of like giving someone who has never swum before or even seen someone else swimming a 30 second look at a pamphlet covering the crawl and breaststroke and then tossing them overboard in the North Atlantic during a Nor'Easter with 80 knot winds and 60 foot seas. If they survive they'll probably develop a love for swimming, right?

 

At the very least:

Add an introductory mission that involves flying the tutorial. That way people might realize that the cryptic and small "?" in the upper right of the hanger is a tutorial level. They also might fly it.

 

Don't think you have the budget for this but, skills that the tutorial level does not cover but definitely should:

Using LOS to defend against gunfire (could use a drone or a turret for this)

Using LOS to defend against railgun fire (railgun drone)

Using LOS to defend against missile locks (missile sentry drone with cannon damage disabled or greatly reduced)

Using engine abilities to defend against missile locks (another missile sentry drone with disabled cannon)

Avoiding incoming fire by not flying in a straight line (maybe a turret with an extremely low turn rate)

Paying attention to cooldowns of things shooting at you (drone or turret with pathetic damage that periodically gets a very obvious aura and some sort of supercharged version of Damage Overcharge)

Flying around mines or shooting them down instead of flying into them.

 

That's a set of basic skills that would cut down on the "this isn't fair, I'm constantly dying, I don't know why, and there doesn't seem to be anything I can do about it," part of the beginning GSF experience that I've heard from a lot of people who tried it and decided they didn't wish to ever try it again.

 

In the ground game after all, you have 10 levels worth of running around and beating up very simple to beat NPCs, that in terms of combat work pretty much like players to in PvP, just not nearly as effectively. GSF has no equivalent.

 

It wouldn't hurt if you could try the tutorial with at least one "stereotypical" example of each class of ship, for example have a match start phase to the tutorial where you pick a ship and then pick a spawn point.

 

 

Ship balance: I cover this pretty extensively in the ship balance thread, here I'll just say that for a lot of the ships the default builds are just cruel to new players. RFLs? Seriously? Gear won't help a new player substantially against a high skill player no matter what the gear selections are, but when taking on other players of similar skill, having default builds where there are slots filled with the worst possible option in the category is just sort of mean.

 

 

Matchmaking: The matchmaker sucks. It's not completely non-functional, but in terms of balancing teams it really, really sucks. Did I mention that it sucks? I realize that it has to make matches happen in a reasonable time frame, and it has to deal with the uncertainty of whether or not the players queued will accept or decline when a match is offered. Despite that, I think it needs some sort of final check step to evaluate the "fitness" of it's proposed team compositions. Something we see a lot on community event nights is that when we do everything we can to try to "rig the queue" for better balance (lots of players, queue syncing, sorting by faction etc.) the matchmaker will very consistently do really stupid team selections.

 

As an example if you have 16 GSF aces, queued in 4 groups of 4, and 16 solo queued players none of who have more than 100 games played, what would be good matches?

 

The obvious ones would be:

Team1, 2 groups of 4 aces vs Team 2, 2 groups of 4 aces

and

Team 3, 8 solo newbs vs Team 4, 8 solo newbs.

 

OR

 

Team 1, 1 group of 4 aces plus 4 solo newbs vs Team 2, 1 group of 4 aces plus 4 solo newbs

and

Team 3, 1 group of 4 aces plus 4 solo newbs vs Team 4, 1 group of 4 aces plus 4 solo newbs

 

What the matchmaker tends to do however is the following:

 

Team 1, 2 groups of 4 aces vs Team 2, 8 solo newbs

and

Team 3, 2 groups of 4 aces vs Team 4, 8 solo newbs

 

A set of steps where after proposing a collection of potential teams the matchmaker looks at the rosters and evaluates the "balance fitness" of the teams, and after either comparing to a threshold value, or just automatically in every case looks at whether by shuffling the team members between teams better balance could be achieved (even if you only did the evaluation once) would be a giant improvement.

 

The matchmaker has a rough job, but there's rough job and then there's inexcusably stupid. Currently the matchmaker has way too much inexcusably stupid in it.

 

Make it check it's work at least once before it submits a final answer.

Edited July 7, 2017 by Ramalina

[KrysTamar]

I like GSF even though I'm terrible at it (there are LOTS of hotkeys that I don't take the time to memorize that would help me out if I was fast enough on the keyboard, but I'm not...) I'll queue when I normally queue for WZs or when I notice there have been frequent pops. I'd like to echo a few things that have been said so far:

1) NEW TRAINING AREA: The current tutorial is pretty weak...basically gives you the gist of moving and firing, but that's it. It would be really good to see a tutorial with some moving targets that you have to follow and sight rather than static mines...

2) SOLO GSF MISSIONS: Matter of fact, there could be solo and small squad (like Heroics) missions with computer controlled enemies. Tie these into future stories, and it would be AWESOME!

3) NEW MAPS: Capture the Flag and TDM are fun, but after awhile it gets...meh. It would be nice to see something a little more dynamic, like defend a flagship while trying to destroy the opposition (with both the opposition and the flag ship firing on you). Something more akin to the Space Missions, with a bit more control and that extra human touch.

4) CROSS SERVER: This would **seriously** improve participation if folks from across all the servers, or even just the regional servers, could compete against each other. Queues would pop, people would be happy...

 

Things that have been mention that I DON'T want to see though:

1) Cross faction...unless it's connected to the story somehow like the Oddessen Proving Grounds. So, maybe just one cross faction type match? Anymore would probably not make it feel like STAR WARS to me...

2) Tied to Legacy...ok, like cross faction, maybe I can see some sort of Legacy rewards such as maybe Fleet Comms being Legacy wide, but I wouldn't want everything to Legacy...

[Nireesh]

I'll try to keep my answers concise!

 

Is the learning curve too steep to get into?

Yes

 

Is ship balance preventing you from playing?

No, but I would like to see strike fighters improved

 

Are you not playing because you feel GSF needs something new to bring you back in?

Yes. Something to do with the requisition would be good once you've mastered all ships. I do play it mostly for fun and cxp, but some other sort of goal for pilots who have mastered everything would be nice.

 

Matchmaking issues?

Not in particular for me on the Harbinger. Sometimes I win, sometimes lose, sometimes get slaughtered, but overall it isn't too bad.

 

The fact that GSF is character based and not Legacy?

Having it character based gives me some progression on each character I have for GSF. I would hate to see my progression go away on some characters. Having said that, I would love to see some legacy perks for GSF

[annabethchase]

It takes too long to get back to where the action is. No fun to spend all your time flying in to die 5 seconds later. Nothing worse than using your whole speed boost up and realizing you are less than halfway back to the action.

[alexneedleman]

I have 785 matches played in GSF. Everyone else here has made the points I agree with completely. The only thing I'll suggest is this: PVE combat.

 

And the biggest kicker:

 

NEW MAPS AND

 

GAME MODES

Edited July 7, 2017 by alexneedleman

[Yeastman]

Is the learning curve too steep to get into?

The short answer is yes. However it can be said this is due to balance issues and the scarcity of requisition - reading in game text on what abilities do and how to spend points to get there isn't complex in itself. However, having to study lengthy starfighter guides outside the game to have a hope of being competitive is not a good design. Spending requisition incorrectly can be the straw that breaks the camel's back, as a player realizes all the work they've done is for naught, frustration and anger set in, and they're just gone.

 

If I were to make only one question you can take back to programmers as a mechanical step to take to improve it, wipe out the GSF user interface and start completely over. Some successful games I can think of that share a similar (but more successful) build and fight interface are the Mechwarrior series and the classic Interstate 76.

 

Is ship balance preventing you from playing?

Somewhat. it is part of what prevents me from playing. However the main culprits that 'prevent me from playing' are:

- long queue times

- hopeless matchmaking (see different subject line)

- hacking, exploiting (im sorry, but my gunship that's almost mastered should not get one or two-shot)

- far far too long a grind to upgrade ship components

 

Are you not playing because you feel GSF needs something new to bring you back in?

No. I dont believe 'NEW' in itself will help. What GSF needs is the fun factor brought back, and 'new' doesn't fix the root cause. 'Fun factor' is certainly not a very precise term, however it's fair to state that it's simple to outline aspects of gaming are NOT fun. Quantifying the negative will help pinpoint the positive. This thread itself is a means to that end I think. Some clear factors are:

- clunky flying controls. what makes flying fun is what makes good driving games fun. the ability to really feel like you're in 100% control of your vehicle. the controls in GSF are simply never like that, even at the best of times.

- never getting the chance to even fight. When you're new, you just DIE. Over and over. We will never get to the point where we are enjoying the game if we leave it straight away because its massively frustrating right off the bat. You wouldnt make Tython or Korriban filled with level 50 mobs who just destroy you every time you walk out of the temple. it would be ridiculous. The analogy holds for GSF.

- no incentive to continue to play. The user interface is mindbogglingly terrible. Were I to look at it and be like 'Oooh! I can get missiles when I get X amount of Y!' and have a clear understanding of how I can build a ship, that presents a clear goal. Just like my Jedi Knight and my Sith are personal to me and I have clear goals for them.

- impossible grind to get to where it resembles 'fun' ; it simply takes far too long to build your ship to where you can actually contribute. If players had to suffer through constant death, frustration, inability to proceed, and a heroic grind to work through the 8 character stories they'd all quit before leaving the starter planet, even if the content 'gets fun later'.

 

Matchmaking issues?

Yes. Definitely Yes. The last game I played of GSF was something like 4 months ago. Playing on Imp side we got paired with a team of Pub side players with maxed out ships, while it was a smattering of brand new rookies on our side. I could barely get to the enemy before a nearly instant death. I went through three matches in a row like this, finally on the fourth one, when i saw the same players again I exited the instance in the middle of the match and swore to never go back, despite 6 months of efforts building that ship. I havent played it since. it was one of the most frustrating gaming experiences I can *ever* remember.

 

The fact that GSF is character based and not Legacy?

Neutral. I care more about how fun it is. If making it legacy fixes some of the 'fun' issues, then yes. Having said that, I would *prefer* it to be legacy based, yes.

[siegeshot]

Hey folks,

 

This week, we are creating three separate forum threads for GSF discussion. You can head to this thread to get links to each of them.

 

Galactic Starfighter, like all group content, is a system that we want to see being used by as many players as possible. This thread is to discuss the friction points that you see in GSF. Whether it stops you from playing frequently, or from playing at all, we want to understand that friction.

 

Here are some things to consider to get the conversation started:

• Is the learning curve too steep to get into?
  
• Is ship balance preventing you from playing?
  
• Are you not playing because you feel GSF needs something new to bring you back in?
  
• Matchmaking issues?
  
• The fact that GSF is character based and not Legacy?
  

 

Let us know your thoughts!

 

-eric

 

I'd say if I had to name my top two friction points, it would be that #1, matchmaker takes too long, and #2, people just faction hop when they want to throw little tantrums.

 

Instead of playing fair for all to enjoy, Pub-side curbstomps imp 3-0, then either the queues will stop, or half the pubs go to imp side, and curbstomp us 3-0. The obvious solution is to let each side have a node, or not spawncamp, but there are 2-3 people that ruin it for everyone, then the rest follow like sheep. We sit in exasperation trying to explain, but to no avail. Then GSF is barren for weeks.

 

If it was legacy instead of character, it might fix some of this. I don't care if I'm GSF'ing besides imp ships. Everyone should be able to GSF on whoever makes them happy RP-wise without hosing up the game in the process. Then the match-maker can do its job balancing everyone out. Then maybe only allow 2-person grps. *shrug*

 

I'll post the rest of the ship stuff on the ship thread.

[Mithros]

Hey folks,

 

This week, we are creating three separate forum threads for GSF discussion. You can head to this thread to get links to each of them.

 

Galactic Starfighter, like all group content, is a system that we want to see being used by as many players as possible. This thread is to discuss the friction points that you see in GSF. Whether it stops you from playing frequently, or from playing at all, we want to understand that friction.

 

Here are some things to consider to get the conversation started:

• Is the learning curve too steep to get into?
  
• Is ship balance preventing you from playing?
  

 

Let us know your thoughts!

 

-eric

 

These are by far the top two things with me.

 

The playing field is both completely alien and extremely non-level.

 

I played a little bit on a character a long time back, and the experience at that time turned me off completely.

[Verain]

Instead of playing fair for all to enjoy, Pub-side curbstomps imp 3-0, then either the queues will stop, or half the pubs go to imp side, and curbstomp us 3-0. The obvious solution is to let each side have a node, or not spawncamp, but there are 2-3 people that ruin it for everyone, then the rest follow like sheep.

 

Queues don't stop for this reason. I keep hearing this but I never see it. If you're seeing it, your queues were probably gonna stop either way.

[KittyKat_Karrot]

I don't play GSF because it's pretty much a separate game. If I wanted spaceship pvp I would play an entirely different game that's dedicated to that. I would only play gsf if it was part of some multi-stage map which also included regular ground pvp, and I'm pretty sure that'll never happen in this game.

[fastartist]

The matchmaking que is ridiculous. I've tried many times to que including on CQ bonus days and have successfully gotten into a match - Only Once!

That said, my first and only GSF match was a bit of a blur. I had no idea what to do, at all. I just flew around aimlessly trying to figure it out. Fortunately, the rest of the group managed to blow something up I guess and the match ended.

 

I would actually like to explore GSF more, so my feeling is more people either need incentive to que, or we need some sort of cross server matchmaking...

[caederon]

The matchmaking que is ridiculous. I've tried many times to que including on CQ bonus days and have successfully gotten into a match - Only Once!

That said, my first and only GSF match was a bit of a blur. I had no idea what to do, at all. I just flew around aimlessly trying to figure it out. Fortunately, the rest of the group managed to blow something up I guess and the match ended.

 

I would actually like to explore GSF more, so my feeling is more people either need incentive to que, or we need some sort of cross server matchmaking...

You'll find it varies wildly by server whether you have an easy time getting a GSF match or not. Harbinger and TRE are usually very active in the local evening/night hours. T3-M4 has some action going on, as do Shadowlands, JC, and TEH though it tends to be more sporadic.

 

If you want to prepare yourself a bit more for your next GSF experience, I've made a whole bunch of tutorial videos over at GSF School aimed squarely at new pilots (and there is also some more advanced material there too for when you move past the beginner stages). Good luck!

 

- Despon

[aethell]

The learning curve: the tutorial shows some basics, but absolutely doesn't prepare for a real match against mobile targets.

 

Coming into a match with little to no experience, and being grouped with experience players (who do it all before you even get what to do and how to do it), and against experience players (who know how to avoid you and how to kill you a lot better than you do).

 

This sums up my feelings as well. Someone on the first page said we need a practice area,and we do. I generally don't like PVP anyway because of the behavior of some people who play it, but at least on the rare times I try regular PVP, some basic PVE learning about how to control my character and how their abilities function applies. It doesn't in GSF.

Edited July 7, 2017 by aethell

[Storm-Cutter]

Hey folks,

 

 

 

Here are some things to consider to get the conversation started:

• Is the learning curve too steep to get into?
  
• Is ship balance preventing you from playing?
  
• Are you not playing because you feel GSF needs something new to bring you back in?
  
• Matchmaking issues?
  
• The fact that GSF is character based and not Legacy?
  

 

Let us know your thoughts!

 

-eric

 

Learning curve is about right. - Flying an object in 3-dimensions isn't the easiest thing. - Adding a few flying AI drones in the tutorial would keep people in there longer before flying against live opponents. - Maybe with a few achieves to aim for. - Or have a space-on-rails mission with the Starfighter controls - so you can be epic or fail epically where no-one is chewing you out for being a burden to the team.

 

New pilots are cannon fodder for the veterans, but that goes for any PvP scenario. - Though a boost to the initial req might mitigate it after the first match - But there's no reason not to give out some Req when you first pick up the intro to starfighter mission from the terminal. - Maybe also have a few more tutorial panels explaining the nature of the game, what the buttons do, the objectives and how to spend your requisition. - How DCDs work, how it's a team game and that lone pilots are easily picked off. see a lot of rookies fly straight into trouble from their initial spawn. - Dunno if it's possible to buff their DCDs or defences for the first few matches, which then stops after so many - 5 or 10 maybe...?

 

GSF does need something new. - either cross faction, or 4v4 short matches, a buff to the rewards to encourage more casual players to queue up.

 

Character based was maybe a good model and revenue stream in the old days, but now it seems logical to extend one's hangar to legacy wide - or perhaps faction wide, so all your imp toons can fly with all your imperial ships, and likewise with your pub toons flying your pub hangar.

 

Nice to see something positive coming from the team for GSF. - Was thinking it was rarer than unicorns.

- Good job. you made an old pilot very happy today.

Edited July 7, 2017 by Storm-Cutter

[Darkaram]

I'm active GSF player, so the friction points weren't enough to prevent me from playing. They do, however, prevent me from recommending it to my friends.

 

Is the learning curve too steep to get into?

 

Absolutely, if the goal is high user-adoption. GSF's immediate appeal is to already pretty limited to players who are 1) PVP-inclined and 2) have crossover experience in flight sim / FPS games. A player who is new to GSF is expected to learn a fundamentally different game genre in a team-PVP scenario, which is not always a nurturing environment. To complicate the process, they have to navigate opponents who have more experience and skill as well as fully-upgraded ships. The difference in power between a stock ship and an fully upgraded ship is big enough that a new player doesn't actually start learning the skills that allow him to compete with experienced players until his ship is upgraded to the point where he can compare apples to apples. All of these things constitute a pretty significant barrier to entry.

 

Suggestions:

 

1) Restructure the upgrade system to focus on utility options rather than a direct upgrade system. This changes the situation from "He outmaneuvered me because his ship turns 20% faster" to "He outmaneuvered me by doing X, I won't fall for it next time."

 

2) Co-op PVE scenarios. It may not fit the vision for GSF, and the development cost may be prohibitive, but by making it pvp-only, you are limiting your target audience.

 

3) Implement a prestige system, allowing experienced players to reset their progress in exchange for some prestige reward. Maybe a character flare that grows each time the player resets. This will give veterans some incentive to temporarily and voluntarily give up some of their advantage over newer players so that there isn't an entrenched group of experts flexing every available advantage to prey on newbies, creating a consistently bad entry experience.

 

Is ship balance preventing you from playing?

 

No, but I do think it prevents the game from being as fun as it could be. I'd like to see a better mix of ships in any given game, or feel like I can play whatever I want without significantly jeopardizing my team's chance of winning.

 

 

Matchmaking issues?

 

Matchmaking in GSF is poor. The most telling symptom is that there aren't enough close matches. I loosely define a close match as one where the losing score is within 20% of the winning score. This means that in any given match, there's a good chance that one side is dominating, and one side is being dominated. This is compounded by a low enough participation level that if a player immediately requeues, there is a good chance he will be placed in a game with very similar rosters - and a similar outcome. This is a good experience if you're on the winning team, and a bad one if you're on the losing team - which is likely to be the one with more inexperienced players on it.

 

Suggestions:

 

1) Cross-faction teams. This will allow for rosters to be shuffled between matches and alleviate the critical mass of participants required to implement a rating-based matchmaking system.

 

2) Implement a rating-based matchmaking system. Good players should be facing off against good players, not being teamed up to crush new players.

 

3) Groups vs Groups. Players who queue as a group should be matched against other players who queued as a group if such a match is available (within a rating threshold).

 

The fact that GSF is character based and not Legacy?

 

This doesn't stop me from playing, but it does act as a deterrent for doing GSF on new characters.

Edited July 7, 2017 by Darkaram

[Liquor]

Here are some things to consider to get the conversation started:

• Is the learning curve too steep to get into?

Is ship balance preventing you from playing?

Are you not playing because you feel GSF needs something new to bring you back in?

Matchmaking issues?

The fact that GSF is character based and not Legacy?

Let us know your thoughts!

_____________

 

Scratch GSF. It's horrible. Fly with mouse and keyboard? I'll pass.

 

Give me a proper HOTAS and let's discuss a true SW flight sim. Not this kiddy attempt at Galactic Starfighter combat. It's a joke.

 

One of the few things Sony Online Entertainment did right was JUMP TO LIGHTSPEED. It was a totally separate game within the MMO. Here are some highlights:

2 new species, one of which is the Ithorian.

4 new professions - Shipwright, Pilot, Imperial Pilot and the Rebel Pilot.

Lots of space sectors to explore including the space around the current planets.

Fly X-Wings, Tie Fighters and even Correlian ships akin to the Millenium Falcon.

Real time space combat

More than 100 new missions

Decorate large ships that you and your friends could take into PvE and even PvP combat

 

Shipwright crafted ships and ship parts. RE loot and make your ship parts more powerful and efficient.

Basically there were 3 pilots, imperial, rebel and privateer. Each had their own levels, ships, mission series and mission rewards. You could be imperial and do imp and privateer or change your affiliation to rebel and have access to rebel and privateer. It was a great way to redo missions for the reward loot.

 

Ship parts:

Armor

Booster

Capasitor

Droid Interface

Shield

Engine

Reactor

Weapon

Missile Launcher

 

We could really customize the fighters. Everything have a weight limit, energy consumption rate, Regen rate and energy use rate. Ships had different weight limit. 5 teirs of ships and parts. RE parts improved stats and lowered energy use, weight, Regen rates.

 

Basically the ships were another character you could gear out for PvE missions and PvP content.

I had some great times with jtl. Load up the game, hit the starport and get on the Saitek X52 HOTAS and never touch the keyboard again. I'd fly for hours. Grind out a pilot in 8 hours and re the mission rewards for sale or build up a ship. Pilot was on farm if I wasn't out collecting player bounties.

 

SWTOR could do this if they would listen to the community let alone paid attention to what came before it. I'm not the first to mention jtl. Many to include me had hoped GSF was going to be similar. Starfox rail shooter let us down. GSF was the punchline no one asked for. It let every JTL fan know BW didn't care about the game And it's community.

 

So to logon the forums and see these threads feels like BW trolling. I can't take it seriously. Not after the multi-year-long NGE from patch 2.7 through 5.3. 2.7 was the patch that merged, removed and made abilities passive. The start of the dumbing down the game to a more simple minded casual playerbase. It's SWG CU/NGE wrapped up but spread out over years of time and chaptered expansions.

 

HOTAS = Hands On Throttle And Stick

Edited July 7, 2017 by Liquor