How Class Balance Happens

[Red_rocks]

Make an ops group with lightning sorcs and mm snipers as your dps and see how much of nim you can clear.

Good luck with that.

[Evolixe]

Forum posters always ignore the good news and focus entirely on the bad news.

 

And yes I know that was too obvious to be pointed out.

 

Yeah there is absolutely nothing wrong with that method at all. Nothing.

 

/sarcasm

 

Did you even read the thread? .. Don't answer that. I already know the answer.

[Gyronamics]

Maybe there's nothing wrong with Lightning and Arsenal DPS in PvE and it's just raiders who will only take the highest DPS they can get?

 

Of course there's nothing wrong with Gunnery dps right now.

 

There's plenty wrong with trying to meet dps checks with Sharpshooter slinger and Telekinetic sage in the hardest content but I wouldn't expect people who have no experience in NiM raiding to know it.

 

Just like I don't expect them to be giving opinions on it either.

[Kiesu]

Of course there's nothing wrong with Gunnery dps right now.

 

There's plenty wrong with trying to meet dps checks with Sharpshooter slinger and Telekinetic sage in the hardest content but I wouldn't expect people who have no experience in NiM raiding to know it.

 

Just like I don't expect them to be giving opinions on it either.

 

Truth. And well said.

I see plenty of tryhard sorcs especially, trying to perform and thinking big of themselves. When they finally manage to progress trough HM content to nightmares and compare their dps to Arenal mercs... They're gonna have a lot to complain about. Gearing is a lot easier this lv, and it can carry a lot of skill, still it wont hide dps imbalance.

I've seen so many sorc mains reroll to mercs this lvcap, because the dps just isnt where it should be for sorcs, plus the survivability of mercs is trough the roof right now, further encouraging merc rerolls.

Edited June 18, 2017 by Kiesu

[fifteendollers]

Make an ops group with lightning sorcs and mm snipers as your dps and see how much of nim you can clear.

Good luck with that.

 

Have you tried it?

 

Yeah there is absolutely nothing wrong with that method at all. Nothing.

 

/sarcasm

 

Did you even read the thread? .. Don't answer that. I already know the answer.

 

Do you even comprehend my post? .. Don't answer that. I already know the answer.

 

Of course there's nothing wrong with Gunnery dps right now.

 

There's plenty wrong with trying to meet dps checks with Sharpshooter slinger and Telekinetic sage in the hardest content but I wouldn't expect people who have no experience in NiM raiding to know it.

 

Just like I don't expect them to be giving opinions on it either.

 

I'm not giving an opinion on NiM content. I'm giving an opinion on raiders. All you care about is your DPS meters. Comparing Lightning DPS to Arsenal DPS says nothing about the ability for Lightning to clear content.

Edited June 18, 2017 by fifteendollers

[Icykill_]

Mercs' DPS was never an issue for players.

 

The first issue was they were too squishy, so the DPS is almost irrelevant, since they are usually dead for the match even begins (in PvP).

 

So BW over-buffed their defenses, and instead of nerfing the defense, they are nerfing the damage, which will do nothing to affect the Op-ness of Merc and Snipers, because even though the damage will be reduced, it was the GOD-mode survival that made them OP.

 

Now, they will eventually nerf the defenses and having previously nerfed the DPS, merc and snipers will be where Lightening Sorcerers are now; at the bottom of the DPS chart and useless in all content except story mode.

 

100% right

[Soljin]

Class balance discussions in an MMO forum always seem to deteriorate into circular firing squads of special interest groups... to the point of constant bickering and fighting. It's pointless really. As a player community, we can achiev e more if we just stick to stating your preferences (and rationale for them), without shooting down other players preferences, and resorting to snide attacks on the studio or tossing in non sequitur hand grenades.

 

Pragmatic facts:

 

1) Class balance in any sort of pure and clinical form is UNCHIEVABLE in MMOs. It's a unicorn in the MMO industry. I've never seen an MMO studio get it right.. and the stronger the PvP components in an MMO are.. the worse it appears to progress over time.

 

2) Different players prefer/want different things.. and one players idea of a nerf is another players idea of a relevant adjustment. There will be no agreed consensus on this among players.

 

3) Some players do not like change unless it specifically benefits them personally. They are willing to disregard any comment or suggestion regarding class balance that does not fit their narrow and parochial views.

 

4) PvP is almost always the core issue in class balance. PvPers are very biased in their desires in terms of class balance because in PvP most players want and will scrap for any advantage.... no matter how small.

 

With that.. feel free to proceed with dozens of more pages of the internet version of "I know you are but what am I" nonsense about class balance.

 

Remember.. it's a unicorn you are seeking... and not just one.. but a whole herd of unique special snowflake unicorns driven by the "me" "me" "me" taking place here.

 

 

This 100%....Add positive input and build a case for your proposal or it's just wasting time in the white noise sea of self interest.

Edited June 18, 2017 by Soljin

[Kiesu]

Have you tried it?

 

Do you even comprehend my post? .. Don't answer that. I already know the answer.

 

I'm not giving an opinion on NiM content. I'm giving an opinion on raiders. All you care about is your DPS meters. Comparing Lightning DPS to Arsenal DPS says nothing about the ability for Lightning to clear content.

 

I dont play dps sorcs, but my guildies do. We do NIMs, sorc mains still love their sorcs. Doesnt change the fact that starparse shows they're getting carried by meta classes. If your sorc dps is top of of dps board your team is certainly lacking, and I can guarantee you you are not clearing nim ops with sorc as your top dmg. Believe me, we got some epic sorc dps mains from last few lvcaps, geting rolled over by merc rerollers. Maybe you should attempt to clear said content yourself in said circumstances, and tell us how well that turned out instead. we've already done our research, as a raiding guild.

 

Dps is a big issue to complain about if you cant meet enrage timers without your tanks going dps too. Hell, we had to pull some solo heals+solo tanks to make up for the dps loss early this year before we decided some classes just werent worth it.

 

Maybe now that the gear rating is once again even higher sorcs might finally pull their weight, but it really is unnecessarily hard, and meta classes would still outperform them. Increasing gear ratings untill the lowest dps classes can clear end content is not a solution, it just inflates meta classes even more and encourages carry mentality which just isnt healthy. I'd rather see balanced classes than have gear rating increased ten times over as catch-up mechanic.

Edited June 18, 2017 by Kiesu

[Icykill_]

These things take time. You would do well to learn some patience.

 

Not really, it's not patience to wait for the bus to drive off the cliff and hope you survive, it's getting the bus driver to change course and not drive off the cliff.

 

Keith, as most people who pvp have pointed out repeatedly, it's got nothing to do with Merc damage, which is perfectly fine. It's the defenses. They only need to make the smallest of tweaks to the defences and Mercs are relatively balanced.

Easy, shouldn't take more than a day to do especially when we've been giving feed back and even numbers and ideas since January. If you were to go back and read all the Merc threadss in the pvp section you would see some great ideas and also numbers some people have provided.

 

Honestly, I can't think of any post that has accused Mercs of having too much dps. Even the people screaming for nerfs aren't asking for a dps change.

The same goes for snipers. Most of the complaining is about engineering, which I think is fine (my opinion), but even that wasn't about damage, it's about plasma probe slowing everyone because it's spammable,

I think I've only seen a few posts about Marksman snipers being OP and they are usually from people confusing engineering spec for Marksman or they see Marksman and engineering snipers teamed up and assume they are OP 🙄.

Most other classes and specs outside of those were considered reasonably ok except Sorc healers who are over performing and Sorc DPS, both Madness and Lightning who are under performing badly. Sure some other classes could do with a tweak here or there, but most were within reasonable limits for both pvp and pve.

The issues as I see them are you are nerfing the wrong things, forgetting about Lightning Sorcs altogether (they are the lowest performing class in pvp and pve) and playing around with other classes which don't need attention "yet"

 

Yes, real balance takes time, but none of what you guys have said about how the combat team goes about addressing balance will do that in pvp and to a lesser extent, pve, The only thing the combat team is looking at is what damage they do on parsing dummies 🙄, who don't shoot back or move. That is not the real game experience as you should know because you are a fellow player😉

Most of us understand they need to get the ball rolling somewhere, so why not start at the extreme complaints and work backwards to the middle of the pack. You will never get any balance in this game if the approach isn't changed. It's time for a shake up and a fresh approach.

 

Let's face it, "most", but not all of this balance talk started because of pvp, with Mercs and Sorc healers being OP. The only class I've seen pve people complain about in pve is DPS Sorc, especially lightning spec underperforming. Throw in a few other complaints about engineering snipers and that rounds out the real balance issues people are screaming for in pvp and pve (Sorc DPS)

 

It's this simple..

 

Mercs - nerf some defences

Engineering snipers - put an CD on plasma probe (I don't agree, but most of the pvp community does)

Marksman snipers - are fine in my opinion and are countered by strong Maras (who are also in a good place)

Sorc healers - nerf some output, I think the AOE heal, wandering mind has been mentioned the most

Sorc Madness - small buff to bring them up closer to other dot specs

Sorc Lightning - small buff to burst output (which is all any Lightning player has asked for, they don't want to be OP, but are being completely forgotten in this whole process. Is that because they expect them to stand still and spam force storm, which is idiotic in Pvp.

 

Once those changes were made they could fool around with the other classes and tweak some more in 5.4... "If" these things take time and it's limited, then 5.3 balance should only be about those above changes because they are the most urgent.

I think most pvp players and pve players who do OPs would agree that focusing on anything else first should wait until the major issues are addressed.

 

Trying to balance a class for pvp using damage output on a parsing dummy is like trying to balance a real soldier's combat efficiency on how much damage his gun does on a shooting range. What about his survival, can he run around in his board shorts and t-shirt or should he drive around in a tank trying to capture or kill a few insurgents who are running circles around him.

DPS matters, but it doesn't if survivability and combat effectiveness isn't taken into consideration too.

The combat team are working from positions of arm chair generals looking at stats and not reality. We, the players are the ones on the front lines. Most people will tell you it's arm chair generals with no understanding of the "real" combat conditions that lose wars and lives. It's no different in a combat driven game. If they don't understand, they'll never get it right.

 

Keith, you need to pull the plug on any changes you've already decided on and go back to the drawering board. Take into account all of the feed back your players are telling you with what's wrong with this approach. You did ask for feed back and we are giving it too you in droves and most of it is the same as what I've written. I'm sure we can all wait for 5.3.1 to come out a few weeks later with the real issues properly addressed.

 

Hopefully our feed back is being listened to or what's the point in asking for it,

 

😉

Edited June 18, 2017 by Icykill_

[Icykill_]

At this point, I think I'm going to give up on taking the endgame seriously at all, and just roll alts for fun.

 

That's how Ive been trying to avoid the CXP grind debacle till they fix it. I'm up to 89 toons (I think) across most semi active US servers since the failure to deliver any change to the CXP grind in 5.1. If this balance approach isn't changed and they instead move ahead with it the way it is, I can see myself unsubbing once I reach the maximum amount of open slots I have on those servers and I'm quickly approaching that limit.

[Thaladan]

@icykill the 30% crit damage bonus was too strong any way and needed to go. damage was a problem too. in 4.0 merc were op in damage, they just had no enough defense and survivability.

 

now they have all : dps, reflect immunity, permasnare, bump, roll back, 3 lives and no energy mangement to care.

 

dps reducing is not enough but sorry it was needed and many players said it.

Edited June 18, 2017 by Thaladan

[Magira]

This is very nice that you tell us how you are balancing for PVE. Unfortunately this is not the issue. PVP is.

 

Btw: The competitors (GW2 and WoW) are balancing PVP completely independent of PVE with own stats, changed talents, own PVP talent trees, etc.

 

Why do they do that? Maybe it´s impossible to balance both together.

Edited June 18, 2017 by Magira

[Zolxtren]

This is very nice that you tell us how you are balance for PVE. Unfortunately this is not the issue. PVP is.

 

Btw: The competitors (GW2 and WoW) balance PVP completely independent of PVE with own stats, changed talents, own PVP talent trees, etc.

 

Why do they do that? Maybe it´s impossible to balance both together.

 

just saying even that 2 game that i play allot have SERIOUSLY balance issues even tough they balancing seperatly...

 

its nothing to do with seperating its just that 80% of MMO devs are incompetent when it come to balance and easy number tweaking....

[Darthanimus]

Balancing the game in this way misses a lot out, defensives, survivorbility, team interaction, group buffs, off healing, mitigation. focusing on just one aspect is highly erroneous.

[Lahandra]

In PvP the mercs utilities are wrecking balance since 5.0 and everyone got disappointed that they only want to fix it in august. Now we learned that they will do nothing to the inbalance in august and that mercs, after they were breaking all fun to play ranked for the whole season 8, will still be op in season 9. Should we be happy that they do a PvE-Change now, so in total mercs might be op and fotm for a whole year?

 

This is the part where I shake my head and sorta laugh..... As primarily a PVE player, seeing them balance something remotely (key word remotely) around PVE first is a breath of fresh air..... It hasn't stopped anyone from PVP'ing. Worst case, if you can't figure out a way around a merc in pvp (and it's possible if you play smart) you might just consider rolling a merc. The utility changes are on the list of things they ARE getting to. All this complaining is pointless.

[Andryah]

Balancing the game in this way misses a lot out, defensives, survivorbility, team interaction, group buffs, off healing, mitigation. focusing on just one aspect is highly erroneous.

 

Note: they clearly indicated this is the first step in their balance efforts, not the only step.

 

I would hold off judgment until they actually firm up and present actual changes. Too many people doing the "full lemming off the cliff" about this thread right now and the pending changes.

Edited June 19, 2017 by Andryah

[fifteendollers]

I dont play dps sorcs, but my guildies do. We do NIMs, sorc mains still love their sorcs. Doesnt change the fact that starparse shows they're getting carried by meta classes. If your sorc dps is top of of dps board your team is certainly lacking, and I can guarantee you you are not clearing nim ops with sorc as your top dmg. Believe me, we got some epic sorc dps mains from last few lvcaps, geting rolled over by merc rerollers. Maybe you should attempt to clear said content yourself in said circumstances, and tell us how well that turned out instead. we've already done our research, as a raiding guild.

 

Dps is a big issue to complain about if you cant meet enrage timers without your tanks going dps too. Hell, we had to pull some solo heals+solo tanks to make up for the dps loss early this year before we decided some classes just werent worth it.

 

Maybe now that the gear rating is once again even higher sorcs might finally pull their weight, but it really is unnecessarily hard, and meta classes would still outperform them. Increasing gear ratings untill the lowest dps classes can clear end content is not a solution, it just inflates meta classes even more and encourages carry mentality which just isnt healthy. I'd rather see balanced classes than have gear rating increased ten times over as catch-up mechanic.

 

Again, you aren't proving that Sorcs can't clear the content, you're merely comparing them to other DPS. Your attitude that your Sorcs are getting carried says more about you then it does about Bioware's balancing. Any Sorc that reaches it's target DPS is carrying it's weight.

Edited June 19, 2017 by fifteendollers

[fifteendollers]

Hey folks,

 

Over the next few weeks, as you know, it is our plan to give you specifics on upcoming Class/Discipline changes. One things that we have never done before is really get down in the trenches and explain how we balance Classes. With our continued move towards more transparency, we really wanted to lift the hood and provide as much context as possible for those changes. Below you will find an elaborate breakdown from our combat team on not only how they balance Classes, but why. I highly recommend you read the entire post (I know it’s long!). For the non-reader among you…

 

TLDR – We do not balance Disciplines against each other directly. Balance is based on target values which are determined by what type of damage dealer you are; ranged, melee, burst, sustained, etc.

 

Here is the detailed breakdown from the combat team:

 

Question for the Combat Team. Just how long have you been using this philosophy to balance DPS?

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

I'm not giving an opinion on NiM content. I'm giving an opinion on raiders. All you care about is your DPS meters. Comparing Lightning DPS to Arsenal DPS says nothing about the ability for Lightning to clear content.

 

DPS meters are all that raiders care about when it comes to DPS specs.

 

No one is saying Lightning DPS is too low to do any content, that's simply untrue. But, there is some content wherein Lightning Sorcs may have difficulty meeting DPS checks which means other DPS classes have to carry them in such incidences which makes the DPS meter even more important on those other classes because they have to put out higher DPS to carry them than they would have otherwise to meet DPS checks.

 

The higher the DPS the more mistakes you can make, the greater the chance for a clear, the less time you have to spend to do the exact same thing you just attempted.

 

Nobody even asks about DPS in SM or certain other easier content unless there is a situation of extremely poor DPS by way of hitting enrage timers. As long as you are clearing, nobody cares. In HM/NiM or Ranked, DPS matters a lot more. Not everyone needs to be ACE level, but they do need to meet certain minimum standards, the higher the level over those standards, the more leeway you have.

 

There are some exceptional players that are able to use just about any class or spec and make it work even in the hardest level of content, but they are the exception to the rule, and most people aren't exceptions to the rule.

 

The higher the difficulty of the content, the more that DPS meter reigns supreme and is the only thing that overcomes concerns. High end content can be cutthroat, it may not be nice, after all it's just a game, but unless the other players on your raid really like you as a person, many raid teams won't overlook low DPS.

[fifteendollers]

Not really, it's not patience to wait for the bus to drive off the cliff and hope you survive, it's getting the bus driver to change course and not drive off the cliff.

 

It's ok, balancing PvE before PvP isn't going to kill you.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

It's ok, balancing PvE before PvP isn't going to kill you.

 

Said the guy who throws games in PVP.

 

Good to see you Phobius.

 

Hardcore PVPers do not care about PVE. They care about PVP just like hardcore Raiders don't care about PVP.

 

And actually, focusing on balancing in PVE before PVP will 'kill' alot of people in PVP. The class imbalances in PVE aren't as obviuos and egregious as they are in PVP.

 

Both PVE and PVP matter, one doesn't matter more than other though. There has been a lot less complaining about mercs and snipers on the forums with regard to PVE than with PVP.

 

It all matters, yes, but it's more important to put out the fire in the living room than it is the fix the leak in the bathtub.

Edited June 19, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[fifteendollers]

DPS meters are all that raiders care about when it comes to DPS specs.

 

No one is saying Lightning DPS is too low to do any content, that's simply untrue.

 

If Lightning can clear all content, it's DPS is fine. It's that simple.

 

But, there is some content wherein Lightning Sorcs may have difficulty meeting DPS checks which means other DPS classes have to carry them in such incidences which makes the DPS meter even more important on those other classes because they have to put out higher DPS to carry them than they would have otherwise to meet DPS checks.

 

It's supposed to be hard for Lightning to reach those DPS checks because it's DPS is balanced around it's other inherent advantages.

 

The higher the DPS the more mistakes you can make, the greater the chance for a clear, the less time you have to spend to do the exact same thing you just attempted.

 

Sounds like you just want the encounter to be easier by using higher DPS specs.

 

There are some exceptional players that are able to use just about any class or spec and make it work even in the hardest level of content, but they are the exception to the rule, and most people aren't exceptions to the rule.

 

NiM content is supposed to be for those exceptional players.

 

The higher the difficulty of the content, the more that DPS meter reigns supreme and is the only thing that overcomes concerns. High end content can be cutthroat, it may not be nice, after all it's just a game, but unless the other players on your raid really like you as a person, many raid teams won't overlook low DPS.

 

That's a problem with egotistical raiders, not balancing.

Edited June 19, 2017 by fifteendollers

[fifteendollers]

Said the guy who throws games in PVP.

 

Good to see you Phobius.

 

I'm glad you survived all those losses. I was sure worried for a moment.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

If Lightning can clear all content, it's DPS is fine. It's that simple.

 

 

 

It's supposed to be hard for Lightning to reach those DPS checks because of it's DPS is balanced around it's other inherent advantages.

 

 

 

Sounds like you just want the encounter to be easier by using higher DPS specs.

 

 

 

NiM content is supposed to be for those exceptional players.

 

 

 

That's a problem with egotistical raiders, not balancing.

 

If you want people to take you seriously, you might considering not speaking about subjects you so clearly don't have a clue about. You're no raider.

 

I do agree that other abilties and powers that aren't directly related to DPS matter in the level of DPS output a class should be able to put out. But there is a difference between a class having a lower DPS output than another because of the utilitty they may bring to a group over all, but if it is a DPS spec, it should be able to meet the requirements necessary to make a DPS check in all content. If it's not, it doesn't matter how much group utility it brings, a DPSers main job is to DPS, everything else is secondary to that concern. It must be able to meet the DPS demands that are placed on all DPSers. It's ceiling doesn't have to be as high as everyone else, but it's minimum does.

Edited June 19, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[Andryah]

DPS meters are all that raiders care about when it comes to DPS specs.

 

Unfortunately, this is largely a true statement.... particularly when a it is a random group formation for the encounter.

 

And this line of thinking completely ignores the utility factors and other contributions a L-Sorc or other class brings to an encounter. Which is kind of sad, but I don't see it changing... which is why I generally only play with guild mates or real life friends in group encounters in MMOs.

Edited June 19, 2017 by Andryah