How Class Balance Happens

[fifteendollers]

If you want people to take you seriously, you might considering not speaking about subjects you so clearly don't have a clue about. You're no raider.

 

Where am I wrong? Do you have a rebuttal for my post or are you just trolling?

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Unfortunately, this is largely a true statement.... particularly when a it is a random group formation for the encounter.

 

And this line of thinking completely ignores the utility factors and other contributions a L-Sorc or other class brings to an encounter. Which is kind of sad, but I don't see it changing... which is why I generally only play with guild mates or real life friends in group encounters in MMOs.

 

I don't disagree with that, these other considerations really are valid when you consider the DPS output a class should have. I never regret having a DPS sorc on my team in PVP regs, because they really do bring some nice utility, and it this utility that does serve as a basis for it not having the highest DPS in the game.

 

The reality is if the DPS isn't sufficient to meet the DPS checks, those utlilties aren't going to matter, enrage doesn't care if you have sorc pull. They just need to make sure they can put out enough DPS to meet the checks reasonably. Right now that's not the case in NiM, and in ranked PVP they just aren't killing people fast enough. That isn't only because of their lower DPS though, that's also because of the insane survival of some classes that make you have to kill them 2 or 3 times before it sticks.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

Where am I wrong? Do you have a rebuttal for my post or are you just trolling?

 

You are wrong about everything you said in that particular post other than that certain group utilities [and the amount of them] should be taken into consideration when considering the DPS out put of classes. But the DPS minimums aren't negotiable under any circumstances, no one cares how much group utility you bring to the group if they end up hitting enrage timers as a result with regard to DPS specs.

[fifteendollers]

You are wrong about everything you said in that particular post other than that certain group utilities [and the amount of them] should be taken into consideration when considering the DPS out put of classes. But the DPS minimums aren't negotiable under any circumstances, no one cares how much group utility you bring to the group if they end up hitting enrage timers as a result with regard to DPS specs.

 

Right so you didn't read my post at all.

[ivanhedgehog]

Again, you aren't proving that Sorcs can't clear the content, you're merely comparing them to other DPS. Your attitude that your Sorcs are getting carried says more about you then it does about Bioware's balancing. Any Sorc that reaches it's target DPS is carrying it's weight.

 

math is not your friend. If the boss has 16 million hp and there are 4 dps, each has to do 4 million dps. divide that by the enrage timer and you have the dps each dpser must put out. If your sorc cant do that, it is being carried, or it cannot be a part of the raid. It doesn't matter bit what your "sorc dps target "is. If you cant meet the need of the raid then the raid doesn't need you. Previous devs have said that they balance to an internal metric and that they don't really care if teams cant complete raids, that is the raid teams problem, not the balance team. Players definately do care though.

Edited June 19, 2017 by ivanhedgehog

[fifteendollers]

math is not your friend. If the boss has 16 million hp and there are 4 dps, each has to do 4 million dps. divide that by the enrage timer and you have the dps each dpser must put out. If your sorc cant do that, it is being carried, or it cannot be a part of the raid. It doesn't matter bit what your "sorc dps target "is. If you cant meet the need of the raid then the raid doesn't need you. Previous devs have said that they balance to an internal metric and that they don't really care if teams cant complete raids, that is the raid teams problem, not the balance team. Players definately do care though.

 

You're only assuming that Sorcs cant meet the DPS requirement. Either Sorcs can meet the DPS requirement or Bioware is deliberately designing encounters that exclude all but the highest DPS specs. Skill has nothing to do with it.

Edited June 19, 2017 by fifteendollers

[Kiesu]

You're only assuming that Sorcs cant meet the DPS requirement. Either Sorcs can meet the DPS requirement or Bioware is deliberately designing encounters that exclude all but the highest DPS specs. Skill has nothing to do with it.

 

No, you are assuming that he is assuming. Have you ever used StarParse? That is a third party program to measure your dps which you can use in raids and also see your teammates dps on the same server. Download that, and go look at some effective dps numbers before you insist we're all imagining things.

Edited June 19, 2017 by Kiesu

[DarkSaberMaster]

You're only assuming that Sorcs cant meet the DPS requirement. Either Sorcs can meet the DPS requirement or Bioware is deliberately designing encounters that exclude all but the highest DPS specs. Skill has nothing to do with it.

 

I always find it funny that every time there is a change or a change coming that is negative to the game, there pops up somebody like this guy who has never posted before who defends the changes tooth and nail, even if it defies all logic and reasoning to, against the people who have been here for years who actually know what we are talking about. Then after a month or so, you never see their posts again. At least with Andryah and the others, they are consistant and will always be here, for good or bad.

 

But this guy? Lol. I'll be surprised if I ever see a post from him/her in six months time. This is what makes people believe that the company sends paid posters to their forums.

Edited June 19, 2017 by DarkSaberMaster

[fifteendollers]

No, you are assuming that he is assuming. Have you ever used StarParse? That is a third party program to measure your dps which you can use in raids and also see your teammates dps on the same server. Download that, and go look at some effective dps numbers before you insist we're all imagining things.

 

How many times do I have to say it. Comparing a low DPS spec to a high DPS spec says absolutely nothing about the low DPS spec's ability to clear content.

 

The ability for a spec to clear content is the only thing that matters. How high your DPS is is just satisfying your ego.

Edited June 19, 2017 by fifteendollers

[Lionflash]

Make an ops group with lightning sorcs and mm snipers as your dps and see how much of nim you can clear.

Good luck with that.

 

Lightning Sorcs and MM Snipers can't complete NiM content?

 

Since when are MM Snipers underpowered? Does that mean I can start playing mine again?

[Torvai]

Hey, Eric, Keith, a question regarding class balance:

 

Are you considering utilities in this? And why is it, that there are utilities that are mandatory for a spec and/or class in order to achieve the maximum possible dps? Doesn't that defeat the concept of utilities?

 

And I'm not talking about the +25% damage for AoE, these are fine.

Just a few examples for this: Sins Reapers Rush, Audacitiy and Fade(At least for deception), Juggs Piercing Scream, Mercs Improved Vents and Tag and Bag, Opers Advanced Cloaking and Imperial Tactics(situationally afaik), etc.

 

And I'm not even thinking of reflects. Simply Utilities that are a must take for an optimal damage rotation.

[mike_carton]

Lightning Sorcs and MM Snipers can't complete NiM content?

 

Since when are MM Snipers underpowered? Does that mean I can start playing mine again?

 

Marksman / Sharpshooter and Lightning / Telekinesis have been at the bottom of the DPS charts, in that order, since 5.0 went live. They've explicitly stated now that they want that to continue and wanted to place Arsenal / Gunnery in the same group. The changes proposed will very likely place Arsenal / Gunnery below Lightning / Telekinesis. This is all PvE. PvP might shake out differently for Arsenal / Gunnery at least.

[Lionflash]

Marksman / Sharpshooter and Lightning / Telekinesis have been at the bottom of the DPS charts, in that order, since 5.0 went live. They've explicitly stated now that they want that to continue and wanted to place Arsenal / Gunnery in the same group. The changes proposed will very likely place Arsenal / Gunnery below Lightning / Telekinesis. This is all PvE. PvP might shake out differently for Arsenal / Gunnery at least.

 

It is a coincidence that the 2 most mobile burst specs with the longest range are at the bottom?

 

Update: According to vicadin, "Mercenary-Arsenal || Commando-Gunnery" will go down to 9164, below Telekinesis.

 

I get that these spreadsheets are important to help understand and calculate dps, but isn't each encounter unique? And different from target dummies?

 

Do these numbers make the classes unable to complete content? Marksman to me seems like the best class at not being interrupted by encounter mechanics.

[Andryah]

Hey, Eric, Keith, a question regarding class balance:

 

Are you considering utilities in this? And why is it, that there are utilities that are mandatory for a spec and/or class in order to achieve the maximum possible dps? Doesn't that defeat the concept of utilities?

 

Per the first post, that created this thread:

Lastly, you might also wonder why there are not more changes to utilities and survivability for damage dealers in 5.3, and that is a fair question. We are first focusing on the damage and healing output for all Classes before getting too carried away with utility changes. This is because opinions about where a given Discipline stands among the pack can be clouded by high or low damage or healing output without anyone even realizing it. That is not to say we won’t tweak a utility here or there, but before we go making massive changes to a class’s utility toolkit, we want to make sure the damage or healing they can put out is on target and relatively similar to other Disciplines in their grouping. Once we are happy with the damage output, we can start adjusting utilities to give those that need it a boost and others that are too powerful a reduction.

[mike_carton]

It is a coincidence that the 2 most mobile burst specs with the longest range are at the bottom?

You're changing the topic and/or moving goal posts. My response was to a specific comment of yours. What you're raising here is a different topic. Your comment I responded to:

Lightning Sorcs and MM Snipers can't complete NiM content?

 

Since when are MM Snipers underpowered? Does that mean I can start playing mine again?

On that different topic: As has been argued elsewhere, there is little practical difference between burst and sustained in SWTOR unlike other MMOs, especially in PvE. Besides, it's been a long while since Lightning/TK has been an effective burst spec.

Do these numbers make the classes unable to complete content?

I play MM, TK and Gunnery Disciplines (among others) in PvE and PvP. There are a lot of others that do, people who have good understanding of the skills and utilities and how they interact. Playing these Disciplines, playing with other characters of these Disciplines or playing against these Disciplines for any amount of time will make it clear that the posters frustrated with the proposed changes (or lack of changes) have valid arguments.

 

A simple test is this: Take a MM/Sharpshooter, Lightning/TK into a HM Op (say SnV) along with a Lethality/Ruffian and an Annihilation/Watchman. Have everyone go into a StarParse group (as Ops groups usually do) and watch the numbers. SnV has bosses where ranged and melee dps players position themselves at different places (ranged are allowed good mobility) and it also has Styrak for whom ranged and melee dps players stack on each other at 0.00m from boss (ranged have zero mobility.) Review the numbers after the Op to determine the relative contributions of the 4 DPS Disciplines.

 

A follow-up test: Try taking a MM/Sharpshooter or Lightning/TK into a NiM Op and see what the Ops Leader and the Ops team say.

Marksman to me seems like the best class at not being interrupted by encounter mechanics.

Cover + Entrench might work against Gharj but most boss encounters (even in FPs and Uprisings) will make it difficult for a MM to park in a spot for long periods at a time.

[Lionflash]

Review the numbers after the Op to determine the relative contributions of the 4 DPS Disciplines.

 

I don't think I have the resources and time to perform these experiments properly.

 

A follow-up test: Try taking a MM/Sharpshooter or Lightning/TK into a NiM Op and see what the Ops Leader and the Ops team say.

 

Depends on my skill and the Ops Leaders needs / wants / reservations.

 

Playing these Disciplines, playing with other characters of these Disciplines or playing against these Disciplines for any amount of time will make it clear that the posters frustrated with the proposed changes (or lack of changes) have valid arguments.

 

We're talking about the Arsenal changes so far? I thought what was being said was that Arsenal has been nerfed lower than MM & Lightning and thus all 3 were unable to be played in NiM. I don't have any opinion yet because I haven't seen all the changes, and so far I don't think the changes have been that drastic yet, up or down.

[Kiesu]

How many times do I have to say it. Comparing a low DPS spec to a high DPS spec says absolutely nothing about the low DPS spec's ability to clear content.

 

The ability for a spec to clear content is the only thing that matters. How high your DPS is is just satisfying your ego.

It absolutely does if you put all "low dps" classes in the same raid, and cannot meet the enrage timer's dmg requirement.

That is why I am telling you to download Starparse and do the match from there, since you are clearly not about to do end content yourself but rather just theorize about it. Might as well have some concrete numbers to count on.

[Gyronamics]

I get that these spreadsheets are important to help understand and calculate dps, but isn't each encounter unique? And different from target dummies?

 

Indeed each encounter and PVP fight is unique and each spec let alone class reacts to it differently.

 

Hence the disgust at the devlopers plan of labelling up classes into tiers of how worthy they are of having a dps bonus or penalty then fiddling dps to pidgeonhole specs based on dummy parsing over 5 mins.

Edited June 19, 2017 by Gyronamics

[jimmorrisson]

Just wanted to point out we are in the seventh month of 5.0, which means for seven months merc-mando's were allowed to fester in pvp and elsewhere.

 

Also Marauder and Powertech could use damage and healing buffs. (Marauder also could use Force Push and Intercede.)

Edited June 19, 2017 by jimmorrisson

[fifteendollers]

It absolutely does if you put all "low dps" classes in the same raid, and cannot meet the enrage timer's dmg requirement.

That is why I am telling you to download Starparse and do the match from there, since you are clearly not about to do end content yourself but rather just theorize about it. Might as well have some concrete numbers to count on.

 

And just how many times have you filled a raid with low dps classes and failed to beat enrage timers?

 

Stop shoving your meters down my throat. Your meters only measure personal performance. They've got nothing to do with a spec's ability to clear content.

[ivanhedgehog]

I just get a kick out of page after page, post after post of people completely ignoring the following......

 

"Once we are happy with the damage output, we can start adjusting utilities to give those that need it a boost and others that are too powerful a reduction."

 

and when they have nerfed the class into oblivion, then go back and gut their utilities, do you think they will bother to buff the dps back up to stop them from being a wet noodle? No, they wont. They never have in the past.

[Zolxtren]

Just wanted to point out we are in the seventh month of 5.0, which means for seven months merc-mando's were allowed to fester in pvp and elsewhere.

 

Also Marauder and Powertech could use damage and healing buffs. (Marauder also could use Force Push and Intercede.)

 

did you seriously said maras need dmg buffs ? WHAT ? no they dont... they are freaken Bursting melting machines in pvp and pve so no...

[jimmorrisson]

did you seriously said maras need dmg buffs ? WHAT ? no they dont... they are freaken Bursting melting machines in pvp and pve so no...

If accompanied by a healer and/or has mostly Tier 4 geared.

 

Marauders/Sentinels and Vanguards/Powertechs are first targeted in any 4x4 pvp match and easiliy taken out in 8x8 matches if not in premade backed up by mercs/mandos/healer.

Edited June 20, 2017 by jimmorrisson

[fifteendollers]

If accompanied by a healer and/or has mostly Tier 4 geared.

 

Marauders/Sentinels and Vanguards/Powertechs are first targeted in any 4x4 pvp match and easiliy taken out in 8x8 matches if not in premade backed up by mercs/mandos/healer.

 

That's more a problem with the format of arenas than class balance. Until Bioware starts implementing viable CC, Arenas will always be about focusing the weakest class in the group. Which is why balancing PvP around arenas in their current state is a dumb idea that only leads to classes getting ridiculous survivability buffs ie. Mercs.

[stoopicus]

Just wanted to point out we are in the seventh month of 5.0, which means for seven months merc-mando's were allowed to fester in pvp and elsewhere.

 

Also Marauder and Powertech could use damage and healing buffs. (Marauder also could use Force Push and Intercede.)

 

Dude, nice attempt, but you need to be more subtle if you're going to troll like that. Maras are one of the top performing DPS classes now, and will definitely be the FotM once Merc gets the nerfbat.