Class Changes: Hatred Assassin / Serenity Shadow

[T_T_P]

Hey folks,

 

Below you will find the first set of changes that are planned for Game Update 5.3. Here is a statement from the Combat team on what their plans are for Hatred and Serenity.

 

 

 

With that in mind, here are the exact changes currently planned for 5.3 in July (subject to change, of course):

Assassin

Hatred

• Increased Deathmark's periodic damage boost from 10% to 15%
  
• Increased Fulguration's damage bonus for Creeping Terror from 10% to 15%
  
• Fulguration restores 3 Force (down from 5) when Lightning Charge deals damage
  
• Increased Inevitable Demise's low health damage bonus from 15% to 30%
  
• In addition to its previous effects, Leeching Hunger now restores 4 Force for each of your damaging periodic effects on a target damaged by your Leeching Strike
  
• Clarified the tooltip for Crackling Charge

 

Shadow

Serenity

• Increased Force Suppression's periodic damage boost from 10% to 15%
  
• Increased Rebounding Force's damage bonus for Sever Force from 10% to 15%
  
• Rebounding Force restores 3 Force (down from 5) when Force Technique deals damage
  
• Increased Aching Mind's low health damage bonus from 15% to 30%
  
• In addition to its previous effects, Serene Poise now restores 4 Force for each of your damaging periodic effects on a target damaged by your Serenity Strike
  
• Clarified the tooltip for Force Focus

 

Please let us know what you think of these changes! Post your thoughts below, thanks everyone.

 

-eric

 

It would help to know what the target DPS is for Hatred and to test these changes to be able to give proper comments and suggestions.

[MrRuck]

Hatred

• Increased Deathmark's periodic damage boost from 10% to 15%
  
• Increased Fulguration's damage bonus for Creeping Terror from 10% to 15%
  
• Fulguration restores 3 Force (down from 5) when Lightning Charge deals damage
  
• Increased Inevitable Demise's low health damage bonus from 15% to 30%
  
• In addition to its previous effects, Leeching Hunger now restores 4 Force for each of your damaging periodic effects on a target damaged by your Leeching Strike
  
• Clarified the tooltip for Crackling Charge

Buff AoE to fix single target, nerf because AoE too OP. We've done this a few times already with Hatred. Messing with Execute phase is a headache you don't need either for the sheer amount of discrepancies it'll cause in PvE & especially PvP.

 

Thrash desperately needs a buff instead -- it's single target, just what's needed. Currently far too little focus target DPS is given up when spamming Lacerate (the AoE equivalent) & Maul does higher DPS than Thrash despite having lower Surging Charge procs & Critical damage. If more single target DPS is needed, hit up Demolish. Too easy.

 

As others have said, Deathfield really needs the 30m back. If not for the balance reasons, for simply how clunky it is to use a 10m placement AoE.

Edited June 10, 2017 by MrRuck

[Evolixe]

Buff AoE to fix single target, nerf because AoE too OP. We've done this a few times already with Hatred. Messing with Execute phase is a headache you don't need either for the sheer amount of discrepancies it'll cause in PvE & especially PvP.

 

Thrash desperately needs a buff instead -- it's single target, just what's needed. Currently far too little focus target DPS is given up when spamming Lacerate (the AoE equivalent) & Maul does higher DPS than Thrash despite having lower Surging Charge procs & Critical damage. If more single target DPS is needed, hit up Demolish. Too easy.

 

As others have said, Deathfield really needs the 30m back. If not for balance reasons, for simply how clunky it is to use a 10m placement AoE.

 

Finally someone that understands my point exactly.

 

Although I don't like putting damage on trash, and we couldn't put all the damage it needs on it because that would just make thrash a double Maul at half the cost. I also don't want to see Maul be incorporated into the rotation as some people here suggested since that's just more up-front damage in a spec that should be about prolonged spread-out damage.

 

Eradicate could just do a ton more damage than it is right now.. and last longer.

Don't make it hit like a truck up front, but the ticks.. they could easily do 3 times the damage they do now.

And given it can't be spread, it won't affect AoE either.

 

I still want to see that Lightning Charge rework as well. It's honestly the best answer to the problem, allows for PvE/PvP fine-tuning and generally has a lot of potential to make the spec less boring to play.

 

If that means we have to wait another 2 patches for the changes.. so be it.

When you do something, do it right the first time. Don't rush something and then still be forced to call it a failure afterwards.

 

People might be a bit mad you announced class balance changes for 5.3 and then don't deliver.. but that's kind of what you get when you wait untill that close to a patch before you do anything. And it's worth it.

Edited June 10, 2017 by Evolixe

[XakTsaroth]

I first would like to thank the devs for their attention. Even if we don't all get what we wanted we can always appreciate when there's a chance. Call it hope or whatever but it keeps a game alive.

 

Some of the posters here know more than me with regard to damage output, number crunching, parses, etc. so I won't attempt to judge what it is you've proposed for damage increase to the spec. I am a player that typically stays with a game for fun. The feel of the class is important to me as well as can it perform for a chosen role. I think class differences within the same role should be about flair, feel, some varying abilities, but overall they should be able to perform.

 

Shadow is melee and as such it should be able to pursue to get in close range and try to stay there. I am sure you designed it as such. No matter the discipline it would be contrary if it needed to kite for instance to be effective or survive. I would not like to think I had to choose a particular discipline within a melee class to do what melee is meant for. I am not asking for the same defense/mitigation as Kinetic. I understand and appreciate trade offs for roles. Infiltration should have its special place as well. Just make it so that Serenity can do its job as melee and not be thought of as some pseudo ranged glass cannon please.

 

Also, please look into the problem with stride that will sometimes have your toon flying way up in the air to eventually die. It must have to do with using it to move to a higher position as it happens most often to me when I use it to reach a npc or player that is up on a ledge for instance. I apologize if I am not providing enough to debug.

 

Thanks again for all your efforts!

[CarlGustaf]

I definitly will try out hatred assasins. the changes seems very promising!

 

Last time I played my assasin in this specc, there was the bug / problem that Deathmark stacks will be consumed from sorc healers and other force dot users. (I don't think that it was fixed at some point)

 

A possible fix would be a change like the Sniper / Operativ one. You could change the debuff stacks into a time based one which increas the dmg dealt of every periodic dmg on the target.

[realleaftea]

@Eric

 

I don't really like these changes. To me, they seem like an unnecessary and uninspired band-aid fix to state that you've changed at least 'something'.

 

First: This spec suffers greatly from a missing flavor or unique theme. IMO, the unique 'life-leech' aspect isn't supported enough. It wouldn't be BioWare, if the spec would be instead centered around a skill that isn't even unique to the spec - Assassinate! Even if that makes a mockery of all the other skills unique to this spec.

 

Therefore, it's not even surprising anymore that Lacerate / Whirling Blow spreads the DoTs instead of the Death Field.

 

Likewise, the purpose of the passives seems to be that the original skill isn't completely awful.

 

Death Field starts with a force cost of 50, but the first passive lowers it to 30. Eradicate starts with a 24s cooldown and force cost of 30, but the first passive resets this skill every 9s and eliminates the force cost. Furthermore, the damage of Eradicate is increased by a whooping 20%, just like the damage of Lightning Charge. And there have to be two passives next to each other that increase the DoT damage by a total of 20% (soon 25%), So why couldn't these skills be good right away?

 

Second: It's also unclear whether it's a melee or a mid-range (10m) spec. The skills unique to this class suggest the latter, the skills actually used and the actual damage done suggest the former.

 

Third: This spec has too many different skill cooldowns.

- Eradicate: 24s (but a reset every 9s)

- Leeching Strike: 12s

- Death Field: 15s

- DoT duration: 18s

 

Every other spec at least has some passives that equal the cooldowns in order to create a rotation.

 

What I would do

 

Death Field is centered around the player (i.e. remove the 10m range)

 

The Assassin is still a lightsaber wielding class that uses stealth, teleports and speed bonuses to get into a fight. The most iconic skill of this spec should support this. Furthermore, it makes more sense if the Death Field doesn't require the assassin to target an enemy. But the most important reason will be noticable in a second.

 

Lower the CD of Leeching Strike to 9s and increase the CD of Death Field to 18s

 

This would give this class a clear 18s rotation separated into two 9s parts. Would also be a slightdamage increase against a single target. The damage loss due to a higher cooldown of Death Field gets more than negated by the lower cooldown of Leeching Strike. This alone would also reduce the number of filler skills like Thrash.

 

Bloodletting resets Death Field, not Assassinate; trigger limit = 9s; but doesn't make it free of cost!

Raze resets Assassinate, not Eradicate; makes it free of cost and available >30% HP; trigger limit = 18s

 

This is the most significant change and focuses purely on the unique theme of this spec - the life-leech. The fact that Assassinate would be resetted via Phantom Stride would give this class a more reliable burst (you don't have to put your hopes on the 30% DoT trigger).And to give your DoTs a 30% chance to reset Death Field would create a flavorful interaction between the two different aspects of this spec - the life-leeching close range skills (see first change) and the long range DoTs.

 

And it's just perfect that the spec would finally have an overall design pattern:

 

9s - the life-leeching close range skills => Death Field & Leeching Strike;

18s - the ranged DoTs => Creeping Terror & Discharge

 

Note

If the developers would be willing make Maul usable from any side, the reset for Assassinate isn't necessary (I.e. it could still reset Eradicate instead).

 

Claws of Decay lower the energy cost of Leeching Strike by 5, not the cost of Assassinate by 3

 

Would result in approx. the same amount of energy restored (indifferent of the previous ideas). Once more, the passive skill would support a skill unique to this spec and it would help to unify the energy costs of all skills. E.g. Leeching Strike, Thrash, Assassinate, Discharge, Lacerate would all have an energy cost of 20.

 

Death Field spreads DoT damage, not Lacerate

 

Even more interactions between spec-unique skills. Perfect match with Pestilence (Madness).

 

Adjust the cooldown of Eradicate to either 9, 12, 15 or 18s; Dreadful Nightmares could increase the duration of the Eradicate DoT by 3s as well

 

Due to the lack of a reset, Eradicate is now your powerful joker skill. It's a hybrid between a melee skill and a DoT, so it doesn't have to abide to the 9s / 18s cooldown rule (see above). The devs can give it any cooldown they feel suitable. To give it an 12 or 15s cooldownwould break the normal rotation a bit and make things more interesting.

 

Final note

As I've said earlier, I'd love it even more if Raze would be renamed and would make Maul usable face-to-face (or just replace Raze with Conspirator's Cloak). Both the life-leech and DoT theme makes it's obvious that this spec rather focuses on longer fights, not that much on sneaky hit-&-run tactics.

 

Furthermore, it would also increase the damage below 30% HP without boosting Inevitable Demise, simply because both Maul and Assassinate would be usuable.

 

And to keep things unique, Darkness should be able to use Assassinate above 30% HP. As a tank, you want to build up threat early and don't need a damage bonus against targets with <30% HP. That Maul becomes kind of useless after you became visible wouldn't hurt that much because the spec would still have enough other skills and tanks should focus more on their def. skills anyways..

 

Last but not least, Maul would still give the tank some extra damage in case he loses threat, the mobs run away, the boss has phases with random aggro, some mobs appear mid-fight or the character simply takes up the role of an off-tank.

 

In addition, I'd love to shift the 2s immobilization to Eradicate and move the 5% force damage debuff to Creeping Terror. Creeping Terror currently deals the highest amount of damage (~20k on average) and doesn't really need an extra bonus. Eradicate on contrast would be a much better candidate.

Edited July 4, 2017 by realleaftea

[Hombad]

@Eric

 

I don't really like these changes. To me, they seem like an unnecessary and uninspired band-aid fix to state that you've changed at least 'something'.

 

First: This spec suffers greatly from a missing flavor or unique theme. IMO, the unique 'life-leech' aspect isn't supported enough. It wouldn't be BioWare if the spec wouldn't be rather centered around a skill that isn't even unique to the spec - Assassinate! Even if this makes a total mockery of all the other skills unique to this spec.

 

Therefore, it isn't even surprising anymore, that Lacerate / Whirling Blow spreads the DoTs, not the Death Field.

 

Likewise, the main purpose of the passives is to make the corresponding skill not totally awful. I.e. Death Field starts with a force cost of 50, but the first passive lowers it to 30. Eradicate starts with a 24s cooldown and force cost of 30, but the first passive resets this skill and eliminates the force cost. Furthermore, the damage of Eradicate is increased by a whooping 20%, just like the damage of Lightning Charge. And there have to be two passives next to each other that increase the DoT damage by a total of 20% (soon 25%), So why couldn't these skills be good right away?

 

Second: It's also unclear whether it's a melee or a mid-range (10m) spec. The spec-specific skills would suggest the latter, the skills actually being used and the damage done the former.

 

Third: This spec has too many different skill cooldowns.

- Eradicate: 24s (but a reset every 9s)

- Leeching Strike: 12s

- Death Field: 15s

- DoT duration: 18s

 

Every other spec at least has some passives that equal the cooldowns in order to create a rotaion.

 

But I guess it's already a life-defining event if a developer finds the right file to open and changes a single value without screwing things up. It's then advertised as a substancial and well thought out change of the whole Combat team...

_____________________

 

What I would do:

 

Death Field is centered around the player (i.e. remove the 10m range)

 

The Assassin is still a lightsaber wielding class that uses stealth, teleports and speed bonuses to get into a fight. The most iconic skill of this spec should support this. Furthermore, it makes more sense if the Death Field doesn't require the assassin to target an enemy. But the important reason will be revealed in a second.

 

Lower the CD of Leeching Strike to 9s and increase the CD of Death Field to 18s

 

This would give this class a clear 18s rotation separated into two 9s parts. Would actually be a slight damage increase. The damage loss due to a higher cooldown of Death Field gets more than negated due to the lower cooldown of Leeching Strike. This alone would also reduce the number of other fillers like Thrash.

 

Bloodletting resets Death Field, not Assassinate; trigger limit = 9s; but doesn't make it free of cost!

Raze resets Assassinate, not Eradicate; makes it free of cost and available >30% HP; trigger limit = 18s

 

This is the most significant change and focuses purely on the unique theme of this spec - the life-leech. Eradicate adds nothing important or unique to this spec, so it doesn't make sense that Raze currently resets Eradicate. Rather keep this skill rarely used, but powerful.

 

Instead, to give your DoTs a 30% chance to reset Death Field would create a very flavorful interaction between the two different aspects of this spec - the lifeleeching close range skills (see first change) and the long range DoTs.

 

And it's just perfect that the spec would then have an overall design pattern:

 

9s - the life-leeching close range skills => Death Field & Leeching Strike;

18s - the ranged DoTs => Creeping Terror & Discharge

 

That Assassinate is now resetted via Phantom Stride gives this class a powerful and more reliable burst (you don't have to hope for the 30% DoT trigger).

 

Claws of Decay lower the energy cost of Leeching Strike by 5, not the cost of Assassinate by 3

 

This would result in approx. the same amount of energy restored (indifferently of the previous ideas). Once more, the passive skill would support a skill unique to this spec and would help to unify the energy costs acroos all skills. E.g. Leeching Strike, Thrash, Assassinate, Discharge, Lacerate would all have an energy cost of 20.

 

The energy cost of Assassinate gets eliminated by Raze however.

 

Death Field spreads DoT damage, not Lacerate

 

Even more interactions between spec-unique skills. Perfect match with Pestilence (Madness).

 

Adjust the cooldown of Eradicate to either 9, 12, 15 or 18s; Dreadful Nightmares could increase the duration of the Eradicate DoT by 3s as well

 

Due to the lack of a reset, Eradicate is now a powerful joker skill. It's a hybrid between a melee skill and a DoT, so it doesn't have to stick to the 9s / 18s cooldown rule (see above). So the devs can give it any cooldown they feel suitable. To give it an 12 or 15s cooldown f.e. would break the normal rotation a bit and make things more interesting

 

Result:

Lowering the cooldown of both Leeching Strike and Death Field not only helps the theme of this spec, it would also increase the survivability of this spec (due to the life leech). And of course, this spec would finally have a recognizable rotation rather than an ugly priority list.

 

Final note:

 

I'd love it even more, if Raze would be renamed and rather make Maul free of cost and usable face-to-face. Both the life-leech and DoT theme makes it's IMO clear that this spec focuses on longer fights, not on sneaky hit-&-run tactics. Furthermore, it would also increase the damage below 30% HP without boosting Inevitable Demise, simply because both Maul and Assassinate would be available.

 

And to keep things unique, Darkness should then be able to use Assassinate above 30% HP. As a tank, you want to build up threat early and don't need a damage bonus against targets with <30% HP. That Maul becomes kind of useless after you became visible wouldn't hurt at all, because tanks will primarily focus on their their def. skills anyways. Last but not least, Maul could still give the tank some extra damage in case he loses threat, the mobs run away, the boss has random aggro, some mobs appear mid-fight or the character simply takes up the off-tank role.

 

In addition, I'd love to shift the 2s immobilization to Eradicate and move the 5% force damage debuff to Creeping Terror. Creeping Terror currently deals the highest amount of damage (~20k on average) and doesn't really need an extra bonus. Eradicate on contrast would be a way better candidate.

 

Not sure where you got the creeping terror numbers from...Eradicate hit + dot is the highest source of damage available to a hatred sin in a single target situation. A buff would be to convert it from energy to internal damage.

 

Hatred already has a perfect rotation which aligns with all the cooldowns (although it is 120 gcds long, 10 sets that are 12 gcds each). Priority list helps when rotation falls out of whack but if you know the rotation it isn't necessary.

 

The fact the abilities have different cooldowns is not an issue at all, and many classes have different cd lengths on their abilities/dots e.g. Marauder with rupture vs. rend. On first glance it looks clunky, but when worked into a rotation it all fits together.

 

If you want to know the optimal hatred rotation send me a private message.

 

I also like the fact that Hatred has a unique dot spread ability, it gives it the most reliable (i.e. spammable and forgiving) and effective way to dot spread in the game.

[xgigabytex]

Not because of Survivability. But simply because the DoT-specs aren't powerful enough to live up to their Bursty counterparts. None of them do enough damage in PvP to be worthwhile.

 

Agreed 100%. People keep saying that Sent/Mara is in a good place (which is true for 2 specs) but forget about the underperforming Watchman/Annihilation spec (in the context of PVP).

 

-xgiga

[Grieverheart]

Because you can't have the best of every world at the same time by the very definition of balance.

And like I already said, Assassin base class and Utilities offer more than enough to survive key points in nearly every fight. It's not a bad thing that you might be forced to play Deception for one or two bosses just so you won't die.

 

AoE reduction similar to what is already in place for other Disciplines is fine. Other than that, we don't need it.

Anyone that thinks we do doesn't know how to be mindful of their own ability/cooldown usage.

 

Every dps discipline should be able to average about the same numbers (assuming equal gear and skill of player). The blatant imbalance between say, Lightning Sorc and Arsenal Merc is beyond ridiculous. Try taking 4 lightning sorcs into hard mode (or NiM) raids.

[Ottoattack]

Agreed 100%. People keep saying that Sent/Mara is in a good place (which is true for 2 specs) but forget about the underperforming Watchman/Annihilation spec (in the context of PVP).

 

-xgiga

 

Is annihilation under performing? For an extent yes, but annihilation is way better than Hatred in every shape and form and is probably the only dot spec that can be used in competitive PvP successfully. Why? Strong damage, strong survivability and good utility. What does Hatred offer in comparison (even after this buff)? Zero. PvP compared to veng? Veng is still stronger due to better cleave and better survivability.

 

Even in PvE, why would Hatred be played instead of annihilation or even its counter part, Dec?! Even if Hatred can deal slightly more damage, Dec has substantially better survivability and burst.

 

Hatred issues are far beyond increased damage output. Buffing the dot damage was the dumbest approach, but BW devs are not know for their intelligence. Hatred is mediocre and will remain mediocre.

[olagatonjedi]

Even in PvE, why would Hatred be played instead of annihilation or even its counter part, Dec?! Even if Hatred can deal slightly more damage, Dec has substantially better survivability and burst.

 

Hatred issues are far beyond increased damage output. Buffing the dot damage was the dumbest approach, but BW devs are not know for their intelligence. Hatred is mediocre and will remain mediocre.

What Op boss fight do you need burst dps that cant be accomplished via a dot rotation from Hatred? I honestly cant think of a fight or phase that cant be accomplished even with todays Hatred spec.

 

PvP is where Hatred needs tweakinv, because its success/failure depends on opponent group makeup and positioning of all opponents, two things that you have no control over.

[Evolixe]

What Op boss fight do you need burst dps that cant be accomplished via a dot rotation from Hatred? I honestly cant think of a fight or phase that cant be accomplished even with todays Hatred spec

 

Brontes Droids and Styrak Chained Manifestation.

 

You cannot afford to have a Hatred Sin for either of those. There's more examples but they are carry-able.

Just requires the rest of the raid to be all burst specs. But those 2 are not carry-able. Not without crystals anyway.

 

Either way, that should stay that way. Hatred should not have any burst. Much less enough to beat those dps checks.

Edited June 11, 2017 by Evolixe

[Seterade]

Is annihilation under performing? For an extent yes, but annihilation is way better than Hatred in every shape and form and is probably the only dot spec that can be used in competitive PvP successfully. Why? Strong damage, strong survivability and good utility. What does Hatred offer in comparison (even after this buff)? Zero. PvP compared to veng? Veng is still stronger due to better cleave and better survivability.

 

Even in PvE, why would Hatred be played instead of annihilation or even its counter part, Dec?! Even if Hatred can deal slightly more damage, Dec has substantially better survivability and burst.

 

Hatred issues are far beyond increased damage output. Buffing the dot damage was the dumbest approach, but BW devs are not know for their intelligence. Hatred is mediocre and will remain mediocre.

I would just like to say, coming from a hatred main since 4.0 I can get by just fine in PvP wth sapped mind (if you stlth cc enemy then dmg before it wears off they will suffer from 25% att debuff) phasing phantomasm (force speed eats 60% dmg during use [i stack it with force speed emersion and force speed cd decrease) and insulation. (30% armor rating increase) I even do well in ranked on my hatred, but a dmg buff to a class that hits 1k dps less than its burst counterpart? its needed a dps buff. Personaly I think a passive def proc would be more beneifcial, but thats just me.

Edited June 11, 2017 by Seterade

[Hombad]

What Op boss fight do you need burst dps that cant be accomplished via a dot rotation from Hatred? I honestly cant think of a fight or phase that cant be accomplished even with todays Hatred spec.

 

PvP is where Hatred needs tweakinv, because its success/failure depends on opponent group makeup and positioning of all opponents, two things that you have no control over.

 

Calphayus NiM, Revan HM (droids), Terror NiM (whole fight), Styrak NiM (manifestations), Brontes NiM (burn phase, robot phase), Colossal Monolith HM (too squishy), I can also go on.

 

The biggest issue with Hatred is its incredible fragility, but its mediocre damage output and lack of reliable burst is also a huge issue,

[olagatonjedi]

Calphayus NiM, Revan HM (droids), Terror NiM (whole fight), Styrak NiM (manifestations), Brontes NiM (burn phase, robot phase), Colossal Monolith HM (too squishy), I can also go on.,

Please note that when i say "burst dps", I am referring to a period of time that is less than 15-18 seconds, the time it would take Hatred's rotation to finish completely given BiS gear. Perhaps you have a different idea of "burst dps", and if so, you are welcome to explain. That said:

 

Brontes NiM:

-the robot phase is no different in terms of time management than HM or SM. The difference is the direction of the clock. I'd argue that Hatred would be a better spec than Deception due to the fact you could run dots on all of the robots before anyone else gets to them, improving clearance

-burn phase is no different either, since you aren't going to kill the boss in less than 18 (or less) seconds, which is the time it takes for your first dot to finish. Again, I could argue that Hatred beats deception in this phase as well, because DoT's will continue to tick even if the assassin dies towards the end of the fight. The same cannot be said of a Deception sin, who's DPS stops entirely when they are dead.

 

Terror NiM - If you're talking about the Anomaly, you only need 1 burst class for them, so it's a moot point, as most likely you will have 1 burst dps in the ops (if you don't, then it's a scenario that is few and far between)

 

Styrak NiM - The only styrak phase that would require any type of burst dps is the lightning manifestations, and the only reason burst would win over a DoT spec is in killing them fast enough to get the real styrak back so you can keep dropping his health to push the phase. That said, DoT spec can make up the lost time in other Phases of the fight, such as Phase 1, being able to continue damaging the kell dragon while also damaging the 3 individual adds. With Hatred, you don't need to stop DPS on one to start on another (at least if you're utilizing Hatred's strengths)

 

Caly DP NiM - Hatred is more than capable of meeting the timers on the defilers (15 secs), the crystals (30s), etc.

 

Need I go on?

 

Despite those scenarios, I could also argue that EVERY class has to be "carried" at some point in time during a boss fight, because all classes will innately have to deal with cooldowns, broken rotations, and inconsistency of procs/misses.

[Torvai]

The dot spread needs addressing, its too narrow, the issue is FiB/death field should spread dots (as it did) this would make it very attractive to PvPers. It fell out of favor quite a lot over the years due to FiB and death field no longer spreading dots as the sage/sorc equivalent does, then reducing the AoE of the spread, some consistency please. The increased overall mobility on classes and abilities in recent expansions means that a wider dot spread AoE is more than needed for PvP. Overall not bad changes.

 

Actually, Lacerate has a .1m radius more than deathfield. The dotspread is fine as it is.

Hatred is a melee spec after all that doesn't need to be able to spread dots on 15 or even 35m range. It was ridiculous to begin with back then.

 

For the buff: I think it's too much on the dot side of things. Because right now this will buff Hatreds AoE by quite a bit, especially below 30%. But it's not lacking in this regard, what Hatred needs is single target dps, not AoE. If you buff it's AoE too much we will be back at 3.0s triple sin cleave combos. No one wants that.

So maybe buff Eradicate. You already do, but maybe a bit more and less on Discharge and Creeping Terror, since Eradicate can't be spread. And Leeching Strike and Assassinate. That way the AoE stays the same and we gain more single target dps.

In the long run, maybe even make Maul a part of the rotation.

[frennky]

I haven't played Hatred for some time, so I can't comment on it's damage output or it's survivorbility. But I would like to point out the reason why I stopped playing that spec.

 

Ever since the DoT spread has been changed the class playstyle simply isn't fun as it use to be. Give us back DoT spread on Death Field please.

[kronovas]

I have been playing Hatred lately and I find the buffs that are proposed are decent. I wouldn't mind if it out DPSed ranged classes on a dummy as that is not how it goes down on the battlefield. But, lowering our damage output any more makes no sense. The class needs to able to function in nightmare modes of any type. Otherwise, no point in creating a plethora of specs if everyone will play the same one. Do keep in mind that ranged classes have better uptime versus their melee counter parts.

[realleaftea]

Not sure where you got the creeping terror numbers from...Eradicate hit + dot is the highest source of damage available to a hatred sin in a single target situation.

Well, take the best parse - from Solaná - and calculate the damage per use.

 

Creeping Terror: 313,759 damage, 15 uses = 20,917 damage per use

 

Eradicate: 215,277 damage. 30 uses = 7,176 damage per use

Eradicate DoT: 351,311 damage, same 30 uses = 11,710 damage per use

 

Result: 20,917 vs. 18,886

 

Also keep in mind that the last Creeping Terror was cut short due to the death of the dummy. Otherwise, it would have been 21,963 damage on average for Creeping Terror.

 

So on what do you base your statement on?

 

Hatred already has a perfect rotation which aligns with all the cooldowns (although it is 120 gcds long, 10 sets that are 12 gcds each). Priority list helps when rotation falls out of whack but if you know the rotation it isn't necessary.

This isn't the definition of a rotation. Just because there's a least common multiple doesn't mean this the 'length of the rotation'. In a fight that doesn't last for 180s (before alacrity), there wouldn't be a repetition.

 

The fact the abilities have different cooldowns is not an issue at all, and many classes have different cd lengths on their abilities/dots e.g. Marauder with rupture vs. rend. On first glance it looks clunky, but when worked into a rotation it all fits together.

The Annihilation Marauder spec is actually build around this 'cooldown-centric' theme. The trademark skill of this spec - Annihilate - even has a variable cooldown. And there are some passives that lower the CD of certain skills to keep the issues in check.

 

That aside though, Annihilation has it's own share of bad design choices - if you ask me. It would bust this thread if I would go into more detail, but I'm eager to comment on it as soon there's a thread about that spec.

 

I also like the fact that Hatred has a unique dot spread ability, it gives it the most reliable (i.e. spammable and forgiving) and effective way to dot spread in the game.

Which could then be considered 'flawed' or 'inbalanced'. And it's far from being creative or spec defining.

Edited June 12, 2017 by realleaftea

[xgigabytex]

Is annihilation under performing? For an extent yes, but annihilation is way better than Hatred in every shape and form and is probably the only dot spec that can be used in competitive PvP successfully. Why? Strong damage, strong survivability and good utility. What does Hatred offer in comparison (even after this buff)? Zero. PvP compared to veng? Veng is still stronger due to better cleave and better survivability.

 

Even in PvE, why would Hatred be played instead of annihilation or even its counter part, Dec?! Even if Hatred can deal slightly more damage, Dec has substantially better survivability and burst.

 

Hatred issues are far beyond increased damage output. Buffing the dot damage was the dumbest approach, but BW devs are not know for their intelligence. Hatred is mediocre and will remain mediocre.

 

Aside from the fact that I may not agree with all of your points or premise, the reasoning for my post was not to say that Anni/Watchman was in worse shape than Hatred. I was just pointing something out that folks seem to continuously ignore. I would like for ALL specs to be competitive in PVP. I used to play Anni/Watchman almost exclusively in PVP for literally years (sadly I gave it up since it's just not worth it) and it has been underperforming even before Hatred got nerfed.....Welcome to the club.

 

-xgiga

Edited June 12, 2017 by xgigabytex

[Hombad]

Well, take the best parse - from Solaná - and calculate the damage per use.

 

Creeping Terror: 313,759 damage, 15 uses = 20,917 damage per use

 

Eradicate: 215,277 damage. 30 uses = 7,176 damage per use

Eradicate DoT: 351,311 damage, same 30 uses = 11,710 damage per use

 

Result: 20,917 vs. 18,886

 

Also keep in mind that the last Creeping Terror was cut short due to the death of the dummy. Otherwise, it would have been 21,963 damage on average for Creeping Terror.

 

So on what do you base your statement on?

 

This isn't the definition of a rotation. Just because there's a least common multiple doesn't mean this the 'length of the rotation'. In a fight that doesn't last for 180s (before alacrity), there wouldn't be a repetition.

 

The Annihilation Marauder spec is actually build around this 'cooldown-centric' theme. The trademark skill of this spec - Annihilate - even has a variable cooldown. And there are some passives that lower the CD of certain skills to keep the issues in check.

 

Oh boy, where do I start.

 

Firstly, the parse you linked actually shows Eradicate as doing MORE net damage. It's not about damage per use, but about total damage dealt (i.e. why Lightning Bolt as a Lightning Sorc is a bigger source of damage than say Lightning Flash, even though it hits less). It's because Eradicate is used MORE.

 

I.e. Crushed (Eradicate) Kinetic 351311 + Eradicate Kinetic 215277 (total damage done) vs.

Creeping Terror Internal 313759 (total damage done).

 

Indicatively, the dot from Eradicate ALONE is a higher source of damage than creeping terror. So, yeah, that's where I get my numbers from mister.

 

I'm at a loss as to why you used evidence against your argument here.

 

A rotation doesn't require repetition, it merely indicates the optimal placement of skills in a set order with negligible variability. You need not go through all 120 gcds. The full length merely shows its lifespan before it cycles again. If a fight is cut short, you can adapt the rotation accordingly. Re: basic raid awareness.

 

Under the 120 gcd rotation, all dots have 100% uptime, Leeching Strike is used at 3 dots on every use (which, incidentally, Solana fails to do). Leeching Strike and Death Field are used on cooldown, and Raze is procced on cooldown. There literally isn't a superior rotation in terms of optimizing each ability. Being so prescriptive and ordered, it is the embodiment of a rotation.

 

Also, the annihilation rotation is built around the annihilation cooldown yes, but only because it aligns so well with Rupture. It is why, despite the 'variable' cooldown, the opener is strictly separate to the 36 second cycle body of the annihilation rotation. In fact, all rotations, fundamentally, are founded on the theory that you can achieve maximum dps by use of abilities optimally as much as their cooldowns provide, and balancing overall uses of abilities such that net maximum dps is achieved. That fits with the Hatred rotation.

[Hombad]

Please note that when i say "burst dps", I am referring to a period of time that is less than 15-18 seconds, the time it would take Hatred's rotation to finish completely given BiS gear. Perhaps you have a different idea of "burst dps", and if so, you are welcome to explain. That said:

 

Brontes NiM:

-the robot phase is no different in terms of time management than HM or SM. The difference is the direction of the clock. I'd argue that Hatred would be a better spec than Deception due to the fact you could run dots on all of the robots before anyone else gets to them, improving clearance

-burn phase is no different either, since you aren't going to kill the boss in less than 18 (or less) seconds, which is the time it takes for your first dot to finish. Again, I could argue that Hatred beats deception in this phase as well, because DoT's will continue to tick even if the assassin dies towards the end of the fight. The same cannot be said of a Deception sin, who's DPS stops entirely when they are dead.

 

Terror NiM - If you're talking about the Anomaly, you only need 1 burst class for them, so it's a moot point, as most likely you will have 1 burst dps in the ops (if you don't, then it's a scenario that is few and far between)

 

Styrak NiM - The only styrak phase that would require any type of burst dps is the lightning manifestations, and the only reason burst would win over a DoT spec is in killing them fast enough to get the real styrak back so you can keep dropping his health to push the phase. That said, DoT spec can make up the lost time in other Phases of the fight, such as Phase 1, being able to continue damaging the kell dragon while also damaging the 3 individual adds. With Hatred, you don't need to stop DPS on one to start on another (at least if you're utilizing Hatred's strengths)

 

Caly DP NiM - Hatred is more than capable of meeting the timers on the defilers (15 secs), the crystals (30s), etc.

 

Need I go on?

 

Despite those scenarios, I could also argue that EVERY class has to be "carried" at some point in time during a boss fight, because all classes will innately have to deal with cooldowns, broken rotations, and inconsistency of procs/misses.

 

No, because I don't think you are speaking from reality.

 

As it stands, unless carried or doing a 3 dps in one side cheese strategy, Hatred has neither the dps for the Defilers (Right-Left order), and nowhere NEAR the dps for the orbs (left-right order), and does negligibly in the burn phase. Not to mention it struggles enormously in Raptus, which I didn't mention.

 

If you've worked on Brontes NiM AT TIER, as a melee dps, unless incredibly overgeared, you cannot afford to predot other droids once the clock has started moving (at least before the 3rd droid dies). You really have to focus entirely on the droid most at risk, and Hatred fails at doing that. Trust me, I've tried, it's basically unworkable. Also the dot range on Hatred is such that, at most, unless standing in the middle like a healer and sandbagging your entire raid group, you can only use creeping terror on the subsequent droid, which is a negligible dps increase.

 

In terms of burn, the dot ticking after death is immaterial since Deception is likely to last far far longer due to its enormous durability. No idea where you are getting that from. Hatred is basically, outside of shroud cheeses, the squishiest class in the game (along with Pyro PT).

 

In terms of Terror, Hatred lacks the continuous burst demanded across the fight. Especially in the irregularity phases. It's why Carnage is preferred to Annihilation for the same reasons, and in that case Annihilation does MORE damage than its counterpart, not substantially less.

 

In terms of Styrak, Hatred lacks 1. the requisite burst for Lightning manifestations (which are only minor), 2. durability and damage in burn phase (for dragon), and 3. burst for chained manifestations. It is this last one which is the biggest issue. You only get 10-20 seconds on each manifestation, and due to cooldown alignments, Deception has access to double Recklessness or a Single Recklessness every manifestation, which is far more impactful for the spec. As one cannot pre-dot the manifestation, Hatred is thoroughly outclassed in that domain. It simply cannot do the damage required, and would be dragging the group down with it. Your argument about more dps on the 'dragon' is meaningless as that's barely a DPS check. The enrage on the final boss is not an issue really in NiM, the biggest check are the manifestations and the Dragon Burn. I think perhaps you are grounding your statements in HM.

 

What burst dps is, is not how long it takes for Hatred/Deception to finish a cycle, but how front-loaded/how DPS intense a short period of time can be for either spec.

 

It's why Annihilation is not a burst dps spec in 16-24 seconds (its opener), as Carnage hugely outclasses it in short periods of time, not because Annihilation can't finish its cycles, but because it can squeeze so much damage into a short time frame.

 

I mean, come on, have you ever done NiM at tier with a sin post 3.0?

[Tadagyt]

Death Field spreads DoT damage, not Lacerate

 

 

Dotspread is fine as it is. Lacerates gives tons of movility since you can spam it while moving and it has no cooldown. Deathfield is for madness sorcs, a range spec.

[omaan]

Hey folks,

 

Below you will find the first set of changes that are planned for Game Update 5.3. Here is a statement from the Combat team on what their plans are for Hatred and Serenity.

 

 

 

With that in mind, here are the exact changes currently planned for 5.3 in July (subject to change, of course):

Assassin

Hatred

• Increased Deathmark's periodic damage boost from 10% to 15%
  
• Increased Fulguration's damage bonus for Creeping Terror from 10% to 15%
  
• Fulguration restores 3 Force (down from 5) when Lightning Charge deals damage
  
• Increased Inevitable Demise's low health damage bonus from 15% to 30%
  
• In addition to its previous effects, Leeching Hunger now restores 4 Force for each of your damaging periodic effects on a target damaged by your Leeching Strike
  
• Clarified the tooltip for Crackling Charge

 

Shadow

Serenity

• Increased Force Suppression's periodic damage boost from 10% to 15%
  
• Increased Rebounding Force's damage bonus for Sever Force from 10% to 15%
  
• Rebounding Force restores 3 Force (down from 5) when Force Technique deals damage
  
• Increased Aching Mind's low health damage bonus from 15% to 30%
  
• In addition to its previous effects, Serene Poise now restores 4 Force for each of your damaging periodic effects on a target damaged by your Serenity Strike
  
• Clarified the tooltip for Force Focus

 

Please let us know what you think of these changes! Post your thoughts below, thanks everyone.

 

-eric

 

I dont think serenity/hatred needed dot dps buff. Actually, their dot dps is ok, even though we dont observe many playing this spec yet if we see them they are actually always r1-2 dps'ers in the end of the warzone. The problem is not in dots but in 1vs1, since dots are doing enough dps, however serenity/hatred has low lightsaber attacks dps which makes this spec pretty useless 1vs1. You should buff lightsaber attacks not their dots lol. Buffing their dots whilst they are ok will make a new fotm again

Edited June 13, 2017 by omaan

[kronovas]

A 5% increase isn't all that much. I do agree on the fact that we are lacking some damage elsewhere to be able to do 1 v 1 more smoothly.