Class Changes: Hatred Assassin / Serenity Shadow

[Darthanimus]

There is virtually no difference between DoT specs and burst specs in this game. That old adage that DoT should do more damage than burst doesn't apply because DoT specs have higher burst than classic DoT specs and Burst specs have higher sustained damage than classic burst specs. Bant addressed in 4.0 and still applies. I have the webpage saved so I'll paste the post exact excerpt here directly so you don't have to scroll through all the other posts on the page and include the original link after it for verification if such is desired or the the proceeding part. It was posted in october of 2016.

 

 

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=847112&page=74

 

This illustrates my point! Given equal dps, and skill, survivorbility then chooses a winner. Hence why I said more survivorbility on serenity. Lets take an example: Concealment operative and lethality operative, despite lethality being slightly higher in the dps department it is easily shut down by concealment. Why cause the concealment spec inherently has more defensives. So my point is this DoTs need their defensives looked at to be viable in PvP.

[Evolixe]

Why cause the concealment spec inherently has more defensives. So my point is this DoTs need their defensives looked at to be viable in PvP.

 

No. Because Lethality does no pressure. You very easily stop it from doing it's damage.

[spikeseti]

for powertechs the only thing they need is a reflection

[Darthanimus]

No. Because Lethality does no pressure. You very easily stop it from doing it's damage.

 

Pressure in the form of what, total dps? It parses1st on the list, 7.64% higher dps than the average. No it fails because of terrible defensives.

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

This illustrates my point! Given equal dps, and skill, survivorbility then chooses a winner. Hence why I said more survivorbility on serenity. Lets take an example: Concealment operative and lethality operative, despite lethality being slightly higher in the dps department it is easily shut down by concealment. Why cause the concealment spec inherently has more defensives. So my point is this DoTs need their defensives looked at to be viable in PvP.

 

Ya know, there are just so many variables that effect things in PVP, you can really find foundation for any point of view if you reach far enough heh. Some DoT specs are going to do more damage than other DoT specs, someone sited the comparison between Annihilation and hatred. If it was Hatred in the higher bracket Anni would take exception. Some spec will hold the better spot. I really do understand how that could make hatred players feel under par, you just can't make everyone happy when your going to assign different levels of DPS output amongst classes and specs that are filling the same general role [mdps, rdps]. That said, I do feel that there is more justification for Anni to have the higher damage put put than Hatred [although I don't see why differences have to be quite as large in some cases, the dps could be brought closer together and still maintain the pecking order] but chances are you are not going to like the reasoning going to give, and nor will Evo for that matter heh

 

Anni should do more damage, because it is a pure DPS class. To my mind, it wouldn't make very much sense to say that the Inquisitor would be a better warrior than a Sith Warrior. To my mind that just sort of seems like common sense. I understand however how that matters less to you because you love Hatred and of course you would like to see it on top, we all have our favored classes. At the same time, if you are to use that reasoning, Snipers shouldn't be doing as much damage as they are as a pure DPS class because they have some self healing like Hatred, in that regard it is hard to justify why even as supposed pure DPS class [i dont consider snipers a pure dps class anymore] as Virulence should do more damage than hatred, when hatred is a melee class and it's ranged. If snipers were like they were in 4.0 [no self heals, not having 75 DCDS ect. heh] than I would say Virulence should do more damage because it's a pure DPS class.

 

It sucks, I know. I wish there was a way to make everyone happy. I don't behove anyone for wanting whats best for the class they love the most no matter what the class is or the circumstances.

 

I don't see survivabilitty in this case as much of an issue in PVE as it is in PVP, we all have healers in raiding that's what they are for. PVP is harder on that for sure, but , why hatred should have more survivability than deception, I'm not sure I can really see that as black and white. Anni pretty much has the same survivability as Carnage or Fury, perhaps a tad more because of their limited self heals but I dont see that making a huge difference. That difference may be more extreme in the case of Hatred and Deception but I don't see Dot or Burst having any greater claim to survivability than the other.

 

That doesn't mean you shouldn't try to get it tho heh Go for it! You've got nothing to lose!! Usually you don't see DPS buffs and defensive buffs at the same time. [unless you're mercs or snipers =p]

 

Hey, at least your patience will soon pay off to some degree, you are getting buffed and that's not nothing! See how it plays first, and than you can have a more realistic idea how the changes play out live.

I'm glad they're not getting overlooked at least like Lightning! Those poor bastards heh

Edited June 9, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[Evolixe]

Hatred should absolutely do more damage than Annihilation.

Marauders already have enough reasons to be brought without being topd.

 

That doesn't go for PvP as much as it does for PvE though. In PvP Assassins have qualities that are very valuable there but not so much in PvE. It does add to strength.

Edited June 9, 2017 by Evolixe

[ThanatosReaper]

The changes look alright and are geared in the direction that they need to be, though, keep in mind, that part of the reason many classes need buffs is because of the current ranged "livelord" meta. The TTK is very high right now because of classes like Mercs and Snipers, so be cautious when buffing Hatred or else we'll see the return of 3.0 Assassin.

 

In regards to the survivability of Hatred, it has always been a very squishy spec and part of the reason that Hatred was viable was because of Phase Walk. I fear that without phase walk, even with the damage buff, Hatred will not be viable in any type of Ranked PvP still. Even in 3.0, I couldn't imagine playing Hatred without phase walk in group ranked, it just isn't possible playing against high burst classes without it. It does not make Hatred a god spec when Phase Walk is added into it, it gives Hatred the necessary defensive capacity it needs. In 3.0, when Hatred was a terribly overpowered spec, Hatred did too much damage and had too much defensive capacity. What needs to happen is that the damage needs to be buffed, but not as much as it was in 3.0, and Phase Walk needs to be added back in.

 

Without Phase Walk or some type of extra defensive now that PW has been unjustly taken away, Hatred Assassins will be benched still for Annihilation Marauders in team ranked. No reason to take a Hatred when a Marauder can do the job with much better damage and defensives, not to mention the ability to apply the Trauma debuff to healers.

 

Phase Walk really does need to be added back into the toolkit of Assassins, DPS Assassins will never really be viable again in team ranked without it. The game has simply progressed too far to be able to compete without it when there are cooldowns like Force Barrier, merc reflect, etc.

 

For instance, Deception Assassins will not be taken in Group Ranked still because a huge part of the burst is tied to cloaking and resetting recklessness when a target is low enough to kill, but with the removal of Phase Walk, if Assassin uses their cloak for necessary damage, then they will absolutely get killed while their cloak is on cooldown if they do not succeed in getting the kill that they cloaked for. It just makes Assassins way too risky to take in Group Ranked, when there are classes that people can take that have higher burst and more reliable defensive abilities.

 

I propose lowering the damage values that Hatred is being buffed with and having Phase Walk added back into the toolkit of Assassins; thus, balancing out the survivability and damage. Really, it doesn't matter how much the devs buff Assassin's damage when the survivability is utter garbage. Yes, I understand that Hatred should be a "glass cannon" and that Assassins should not have the best of both worlds, but without Phase Walk this late in the game, then there is absolutely no reason to take Assassins outside of tanking for Ranked PvP.

 

Also, no, Hatred does not need passive defensives like Deception has, all it needs is Phase Walk. Keep the squishiness of the spec, just grant the ability to get out of high burst when necessary.

[Darthanimus]

Ya know, there are just so many variables that effect things in PVP,

 

I don't see survivabilitty in this case as much of an issue in PVE as it is in PVP, we all have healers in raiding that's what they are for. PVP is harder on that for sure, but , why hatred should have more survivability than deception, I'm not sure I can really see that as black and white. Anni pretty much has the same survivability as Carnage or Fury, perhaps a tad more because of their limited self heals but I dont see that making a huge difference. That difference may be more extreme in the case of Hatred and Deception but I don't see Dot or Burst having any greater claim to survivability than the other.

 

That doesn't mean you shouldn't try to get it tho heh Go for it! You've got nothing to lose!! Usually you don't see DPS buffs and defensive buffs at the same time. [unless you're mercs or snipers =p]

 

 

I am mainly referring to PvP not PvE, in addition hatred/serenity isn't my preferred/main class. My issues are a result of limited choices in PvP when it comes to a specs viability. Why make deception more durable than hatred, The whole point of this balancing is with PvP in mind, balance is far less important in PvE. When considering a PvP environment dps numbers are not the whole story.

Edited June 9, 2017 by Darthanimus

[assatrap]

A tiny dps buff. Thats ok but its going to do nothing, its just extra bit of fluff damage. The main problem with Hatred is survivablity and virtually no burst/range. Its almost as squishy as a PT butalteast it has the best burst in game.

 

Meh iam giving up on sin class simply no longer fun too manys classes that can do the same but better.

 

If i want dot spec pressure i just go play mara annihilation which has more damage and better burst. If i want burst i go fury/carnage. Also 2 godmode DCD's with undying rage and obfuscate. Not to mention predation on 20sec cd. With very short duration on Vanish which is also undetectable.

 

Sin hatred is completly useless. For what pressure?.. lol.. survivabilty?...raid utility?....ranked?...

 

then we got exilove who thinks sins are basicly fine as and the players are clueless and almost nothing needs to be changed. Yeh dude not everyone got thousands of hours play time like you in pvp and nim raiding. Not everyone is used to being carried by hardcore nerds... your perception of sin is as skewed as it can get. 99% of the sin player base cant even relate to what exilove is saying... lol.

Edited June 9, 2017 by assatrap

[FlameYOL]

Looks promising, I won't know if us Hatred Assassins will be good enough until I test those changes live.

[vicadin]

Preliminary math numbers show these changes to be about 260 DPS increase.

[THAT_EPIC_GUY]

@Evo

 

I sorta meant give one or the other with my post. Of course I don't want to see hatred having the same level of survivability as deception but as far as PvE goes it needs something (be it a small DR passive which requires good rotation uptime to maintain or just AoE DR).

 

I'm not sure if the comparisons to 3.0 hatred are really that justified either. 3.0 hatred had a number of things which allowed it to excel in PvP which is not the case currently; higher overall relative dps, 30m dotspread, longer stun immunity on deflection, phasewalk. Plus the defensive meta back then was way weaker than it is now. The strength of stealthing out to heal was much higher since there were not as many classes which could benefit from the downtime. Right now you have quite specific kill windows for mercs and snipers, if you miss them those classes will have cooldowns back up again and you're in trouble. Stealthing can be just as painful for you as it is to them now whereas this was not as significant before. These changes and any sort of survivability change won't bring it back to the 3.0 double hatred team ranked comps.

 

Lastly as a couple others have said; this is a big dps buff for the specs execute. This needs to be tested to see how effective it truly will be but I have concerns. In PvP you're not going to be seeing this benefit until execute which you may never see. In PvE executes have always been messy; several bosses die/push at non 0% hp values which robs execute specs of dps. Some significant phases are outside executes. Some fights are skewed towards execute specs eg. 50% of the burn in brontes burn is under execute which is proportionally higher than dummy parses and most fights giving execute specs a slight benefit.

[Hombad]

Hatred should absolutely do more damage than Annihilation.

Marauders already have enough reasons to be brought without being topd.

 

That doesn't go for PvP as much as it does for PvE though. In PvP Assassins have qualities that are very valuable there but not so much in PvE. It does add to strength.

 

Hey, this is Jaek here (Deception main from Dulfy).

 

Hatred in no way should do more damage than Annihilation, but it should be close to comparable single target.

 

I reason this due to 1. difficulty of the two specs; 2. ability to start/stop rotation and hard swap for a ranged target; 3. discrepancy in execute phase; 4. aoe potential of the two specs.

[Hombad]

In regards to the Hatred buffs, I think these are all steps in the right direction. Especially the execute buffs.

 

Defensively, Hatred is undertuned. However, I don't think it should be anywhere comparable to Deception, and I don't think it should be any more durable than any other melee dps spec. Hatred's identity lies in its vampirism, and I believe what it needs is a significant buff to its self-healing capabilities.

 

Currently, for 1-2 targets with optimal rotation/max dot uptime, a Carnage marauder enjoys greater self-healing than Hatred's full self heals (including Deathfield, Leeching Strike, and Overcharge on cooldown) simply due to Thirst for Blood, a single utility point. That is laughable. Not to mention its pathetic comparison to the self-healing of Annihilation. Or Merc.

 

That needs fixing, or Hatred needs fundamental redesign as a concept.

 

I would have liked to see a stronger buff to Leeching Strike's heal co-efficient, and perhaps a way to convert X% of the overhealing to a shield (capped at a value equivalent to a % of max HP, say 20% max hp).

 

Wouldn't turn the spec into a new merc but would assist with giving added durability/resistance to damage spikes.

[Tadagyt]

Also, no, Hatred does not need passive defensives like Deception has, all it needs is Phase Walk. Keep the squishiness of the spec, just grant the ability to get out of high burst when necessary.

 

For PVP, but in PVE, phase walk is useless. So in PVE, hatred will still suck.

[Seterade]

There has been a lot of disscussion of whether hatred sin deserve another passive def.

 

I wanted to point why I feel hatred needs a passive defence after assassinate.

 

Hatred is not a glass cannon dps. it is an offtank dps. swtors 8 classes are made up of 3 off heal dps, 3 off tank dps, and 2 glass cannon classes.

 

Hatred sin falls into offtank catergory. it should be sturdy, an when you look at its offtank brothers (vengeance jugg and pyrotech powertech) there isnt a comparision of which offtank is the worst off.

 

I approve of the attack addition because hatred has been worlds behind in single target dps in 5.x, but its defences for a "offtank" class are abyssal.

 

I would perfer that bioware push single target burst for hatred, and add a X% passive def from proc.

 

Your arguement that hatred is a glass cannon is inaccurate and does not line up with swtor class design. Anni mara are glass cannons and they have far more survivablily than hatred does. same with virulance. How can you possibly argue that hatred doesnt need passives when it (as an offtank dps) has weaker defencsive than both of swtors glass cannon class designs.

 

Edit: a side note. the passive I believed they needed was a 10% buff. exo said several times hatred should not be equal to deception. a 10% passive as long as you play your class right? doesnt even scratch the surface of decpetions nonstop passives if they play their class right.

Edited June 10, 2017 by Seterade

[Hombad]

There has been a lot of disscussion of whether hatred sin deserve another passive def.

 

I wanted to point why I feel hatred needs a passive defence after assassinate.

 

Hatred is not a glass cannon dps. it is an offtank dps. swtors 8 classes are made up of 3 off heal dps, 3 off tank dps, and 2 glass cannon classes.

 

Hatred sin falls into offtank catergory. it should be sturdy, an when you look at its offtank brothers (vengeance jugg and pyrotech powertech) there isnt a comparision of which offtank is the worst off.

 

I approve of the attack addition because hatred has been worlds behind in single target dps in 5.x, but its defences for a "offtank" class are abyssal.

 

I would perfer that bioware push single target burst for hatred, and add a X% passive def from proc.

 

Your arguement that hatred is a glass cannon is inaccurate and does not line up with swtor class design. Anni mara are glass cannons and they have far more survivablily than hatred does. same with virulance. How can you possibly argue that hatred doesnt need passives when it (as an offtank dps) has weaker defencsive than both of swtors glass cannon class designs.

 

Edit: a side note. the passive I believed they needed was a 10% buff. exo said several times hatred should not be equal to deception. a 10% passive as long as you play your class right? doesnt even scratch the surface of decpetions nonstop passives if they play their class right.

 

I believe you're a bit misguided...since everything you're talking about in terms of 'offtank' is filled by Deception already.

 

Why do you believe it is Hatred that must be the offtank spec?

[Seterade]

I believe you're a bit misguided...since everything you're talking about in terms of 'offtank' is filled by Deception already.

 

Why do you believe it is Hatred that must be the offtank spec?

 

Im not clear on how to answer that. Hatred is an offtank spec because it shares a tree with a tank spec, has many def utilitys that show that and possesses guard, tuant, and AoE tuant. these are the indicator off an "offtank" spec. particularly the tuant an guard capability.

[TheLadySeydlitz]

At first glance, I'd say those changes are a good start, but probably aren't going to solve a whole lot.

As was pointed out, it won't result in much of an overall dps buff, which is what we need.

Seems a bit too skewed towards execute phase and Creeping Terror, neither of which are lacking presently.

Discharge, for example, would benefit more from a buff to bring it's overall damage more inline with CT.

The change to force regen is kinda odd too, buffing one and nerfing another doesn't seem like much of an improvement.

Smoother regen, perhaps, but still not much of a fix. Discharge, Creeping Terror, Death Field and Leeching Strike are all relatively expensive to use, so I'd suggest knocking, say, 5 force off each one.

 

I've got a bunch of balance ideas in a couple of threads, but I'll summarize them here too:

 

To increase damage, a number of things.

1. A flat dps buff across the board, by however much needed to bring us up to par with other specs.

Tweaking passives is a nice, but isn't enough.

2. Be good to see a few less Thrash's in the rotation, maybe Maul could be introduced somehow?

3. Discharge, as I mentioned, sits a bit behind CT in overall damage, despite being a very similar ability, buff slightly.

4. Leeching Strike also doesn't contribute a huge amount to overall damage, despite being a core ability. Thus, I would advocate two things. One, reduce it's cooldown to match Raze, which would make lining up all 3 DoT's for Leeching Hunger much easier, and also increase Leeching Hunger's buff a bit, 'cause 5% per DoT isn't much.

Making Eradicate's DoT spreadable would also be cool, but also a bit over the top, so I can't imagine that will happen.

 

In survivability terms, Hatred needs the 30% aoe damage reduction, full stop, end of story, period.

Hatred is one of the only specs (not including tanks, of course) that doesn't have access to it.

Sorcs, Maras, Mercs and Ops all have it as a utility, Deception & AP get it as a passive, Snipers get 60% on Entrench and are defensively strong anyway, while Vengeance gets 60% for 15s with Threatening Scream.

Which leaves Hatred, Pyro, and Rage out in the cold, and all three are underperforming in 5.0, strangely enough.

 

I'm also of the same opinion as Jaek, our self heals are currently kinda useless, with the exception of Leeching Strike, which restores a decent amount, especially when it crits. Our DoT and Death Field self heals need a buff, and I'd also suggest adding Eradicate's DoT to the self healing list. Additionally, seeing as self healing is a Hatred thing, reducing Overcharge Saber's cooldown by 20 secs or so might be worthwhile too, or buffing the amount it heals slightly.

[Hombad]

Im not clear on how to answer that. Hatred is an offtank spec because it shares a tree with a tank spec, has many def utilitys that show that and possesses guard, tuant, and AoE tuant. these are the indicator off an "offtank" spec. particularly the tuant an guard capability.

 

What I meant is, rather than mindlessly homogenising the role of all Assassin specs, let's allow for some differentiation.

 

Why do BOTH specs have to function as offtanks? Isn't specialisation a good thing? Why do BOTH Assassin specs need to be able to serve as offtanks, in your mind?

 

Edit: Both being Deception and Hatred

Edited June 10, 2017 by Hombad
clarification

[Hombad]

At first glance, I'd say those changes are a good start, but probably aren't going to solve a whole lot.

As was pointed out, it won't result in much of an overall dps buff, which is what we need.

Seems a bit too skewed towards execute phase and Creeping Terror, neither of which are lacking presently.

Discharge, for example, would benefit more from a buff to bring it's overall damage more inline with CT.

The change to force regen is kinda odd too, buffing one and nerfing another doesn't seem like much of an improvement.

Smoother regen, perhaps, but still not much of a fix. Discharge, Creeping Terror, Death Field and Leeching Strike are all relatively expensive to use, so I'd suggest knocking, say, 5 force off each one.

 

I've got a bunch of balance ideas in a couple of threads, but I'll summarize them here too:

 

To increase damage, a number of things.

1. A flat dps buff across the board, by however much needed to bring us up to par with other specs.

Tweaking passives is a nice, but isn't enough.

2. Be good to see a few less Thrash's in the rotation, maybe Maul could be introduced somehow?

3. Discharge, as I mentioned, sits a bit behind CT in overall damage, despite being a very similar ability, buff slightly.

4. Leeching Strike also doesn't contribute a huge amount to overall damage, despite being a core ability. Thus, I would advocate two things. One, reduce it's cooldown to match Raze, which would make lining up all 3 DoT's for Leeching Hunger much easier, and also increase Leeching Hunger's buff a bit, 'cause 5% per DoT isn't much.

Making Eradicate's DoT spreadable would also be cool, but also a bit over the top, so I can't imagine that will happen.

 

In survivability terms, Hatred needs the 30% aoe damage reduction, full stop, end of story, period.

Hatred is one of the only specs (not including tanks, of course) that doesn't have access to it.

Sorcs, Maras, Mercs and Ops all have it as a utility, Deception & AP get it as a passive, Snipers get 60% on Entrench and are defensively strong anyway, while Vengeance gets 60% for 15s with Threatening Scream.

Which leaves Hatred, Pyro, and Rage out in the cold, and all three are underperforming in 5.0, strangely enough.

 

I'm also of the same opinion as Jaek, our self heals are currently kinda useless, with the exception of Leeching Strike, which restores a decent amount, especially when it crits. Our DoT and Death Field self heals need a buff, and I'd also suggest adding Eradicate's DoT to the self healing list. Additionally, seeing as self healing is a Hatred thing, reducing Overcharge Saber's cooldown by 20 secs or so might be worthwhile too, or buffing the amount it heals slightly.

 

I think having the Leeching Hunger buff as maybe 10% Damage + 10% Amour Pen per dot would be a wonderful quality of life change.

 

It is currently possible to run a rotation which sees Leeching Strike used on targets with 3 dots for every single use.

[Seterade]

What I meant is, rather than mindlessly homogenising the role of all Assassin specs, let's allow for some differentiation.

 

Why do BOTH specs have to function as offtanks? Isn't specialisation a good thing? Why do BOTH Assassin specs need to be able to serve as offtanks, in your mind?

I could be wrong, Im sorry if I am, but it sounds like your asking, why cant hatred be a glass cannon?

 

If this is your question its a fair one. the simple answer would be, offtank is a category in the class roles in swtor, whether we like tham or not, unless bioware does a full 24 spec overhaul, offtanks are here and hatred qualifys.

 

however, lets suppose its not an off spec. lets suppose hatred is an off heal spec. as per sorc, merc, and operative design they would need one casted heal and one dot heal. in addition to all their atts and effects. so this addition would replace tuant and guard.

 

lets suppose instead of offheal, you want hatred to become a glass cannon, according to swtor mechanic (based on the design of snipers and mara the only offcial "glass cannon" role) they would need a pitful continous dot heal (see cover heal on sniper, and various utiliys based heals on mara/anni mara) they would need a dps output higher than all other offtank and offheal dot classes (because it is a dot spec not a burst, the single target dmg would equal roughly the burst output of off tank an off heal classes) and then its single an aoe ability would have to mirror sniper and mara. Last but not least, in order to become full "glass" they need 2 dcd designs, a no dmg for X amount of time, and reduce targets accuray/ability to dmg for X time (see diversion and obsculate)

 

as it stand right now, hatred is an offtank spec, which means he sustains his ability to keep going with passive defs, basic dcds, and in this specific case he gives up a little def for a little offheal.

[Ziddal_the_green]

Thank you for recognizing what's already obvious to all; you nerfed this discipline way too much so far

 

Changes look promising, have to try to be 100% but look good.

 

You still need to address some things like

1)dot spreading

2)FiB range

3)as all said defensive cooldowns need a buff

4)Phase walk back, what were you thinking when you removed it

 

Thank you for your communication. it finally looks like the dev team is trying to keep the game alive

[Evolixe]

Hey, this is Jaek here (Deception main from Dulfy).

 

Hatred in no way should do more damage than Annihilation, but it should be close to comparable single target.

 

I reason this due to

1. difficulty of the two specs;

2. ability to start/stop rotation and hard swap for a ranged target;

3. discrepancy in execute phase;

4. aoe potential of the two specs.

 

You could be the queen for all I care.

Given what Marauders already bring to the raid, they should not also do more damage.

 

The difficulty of a spec doesn't dictate how much damage it should do in the slighest. And it shouldn't.

Both specs are pretty comparible at switching to a distant target, with us in a disadvantage because Stride is used rotationally.

 

The whole execute thing is bs anyway. Like someone else already said, lots of bosses die before 0% and terror for example.. you don't even touch the boss before he is 15% Then he also proceeds to die before 0%. Execute damage is literally the shortest way to a badly balanced class.

 

As far as AoE goes, they are both dot specs.

They don't have to be equal exactly but they both should be extremely potent at it.

[Falkenlambedo]

You must be joking... Thats a joke right?