Been following thread of course and there are lots of ideas based upon style of gameplay. Obviously this is to be expected. For clarification on my view - I only have a handful of alts, have not done all the stories, etc. I am not a person to PvE much beyond some dailies and an occasional FP or Uprising. I have obtained all of my gear through PvP and RNG crates. That said, I am nearly complete in 248 with min 246 on other slots. I play for 2 - 3 hrs at most in a day so consider myself casual. It doesn't feel like a big grind to me - just slow measured progression. Been playing this game since launch and gear has never been an obstacle in PvP. PvE is a different story but I am not an avid player of that content.

Dotspread on Death Field means you have to wait to dotspread vs the useful ability to do so whenever. Easier to keep dots refreshed the way it is now.

Bolster should remain as is. Gear disparity exists on occassion till you overcome it but it doesn't hamper you very much. You are playing on a team (coming from a person who ques solo 99% of the time so all I wind up with is PUG) in PvP. Not all opponents will be better geared. The talk is that it takes long to gear up. That's subjective so I won't counter however, if you say that you'll be facing opponents that are stronger simply because they have better gear then how can it be so since it takes just as long for them; alts considered - even longer. Another thing the gearing does is force choices to have some weight. In the end you will have skill be the determining factor. Are you playing objectives? Do you simply wish to be able to solo/duel? Ranked is its own beast due to 4v4 and ability to simply concentrate on killing one player or overpower an imbalanced team. Yes, sometimes you get an even match where skill and dare I say a measure of luck is a factor but not often unfortunately. As for gear, one can do ranked when they are ready and geared same as high end PvE. Don't see a problem here. I choose option 1.

I first would like to thank the devs for their attention. Even if we don't all get what we wanted we can always appreciate when there's a chance. Call it hope or whatever but it keeps a game alive. Some of the posters here know more than me with regard to damage output, number crunching, parses, etc. so I won't attempt to judge what it is you've proposed for damage increase to the spec. I am a player that typically stays with a game for fun. The feel of the class is important to me as well as can it perform for a chosen role. I think class differences within the same role should be about flair, feel, some varying abilities, but overall they should be able to perform. Shadow is melee and as such it should be able to pursue to get in close range and try to stay there. I am sure you designed it as such. No matter the discipline it would be contrary if it needed to kite for instance to be effective or survive. I would not like to think I had to choose a particular discipline within a melee class to do what melee is meant for. I am not asking for the same defense/mitigation as Kinetic. I understand and appreciate trade offs for roles. Infiltration should have its special place as well. Just make it so that Serenity can do its job as melee and not be thought of as some pseudo ranged glass cannon please. Also, please look into the problem with stride that will sometimes have your toon flying way up in the air to eventually die. It must have to do with using it to move to a higher position as it happens most often to me when I use it to reach a npc or player that is up on a ledge for instance. I apologize if I am not providing enough to debug. Thanks again for all your efforts!

Hatred is a melee spec with dots. It should be comparable in theory with Watchman. It definitely should not be easy to kill. No melee spec should be. That would be pointless. Time has to be spent in close proximity to whomever you're fighting and it takes time and effort to get and remain there, esp. when dealing with ranged opponent. The heals received when dots crit do little to nothing to add to survival. The damage done needs adjusting to allow it to pressure healers as well as have some chance in solo fights. The survivability needs adjusting period. Melee classes should not be glass cannons (as in ranged). The devs can rework the class however they choose to but hopefully they remember that melee closes the distance (pursues) and should be able to perform admirably no matter what spec.

Thanks for the effort. Chock full of information!

KC I believe Leafy stated his points concerning Kinetic Shadows well enough. I play this as full KC and though I have tampered with Balance (I really wish this tree worked) and Infiltration, it has always been my favorite. It was my decision when the game first started and remains so today. I have experienced the changes this tree has undergone and rolled with them in hopes that the "vision" for this class was to be realized at some point. The last changes that made us lose healing in favor of added damage reduction I thought on PTS (as originally conceived) would improve my game play and "fun factor". Then we had the mathematicians and game wizards call for adjustments to make it more "complex" and so we have what we have now. It is not more complex to play, it is less fun, more boring if anything. I like the fact that KC tank has a reason to start an engagement from stealth - cool factor! I dislike the constant rotation to maintain a buff for survivability. I now have the ability to use Shadow Strike a bit more with less penalty - cool factor! If I use it I may lose my buff cause my timer has run out on my defensive buff - not cool. I choose to do almost anything else besides the simple rotation and I may be penalized - where is the fun in that. One more thing I may add so as to not cause any confusion. I am not a PvE player for the most part. I cannot go into what it was to do hard modes or whatever others do and which boss does this or that. Not my cup of tea. Maybe the changes improved that experience but to me the tank specialization, my favorite, took a big hit with the changes. I am not stronger (yeah we gained a little dam resistance but we lost self sustaining heals, again for pvp, alone on a node I notice it) and it is less fun to play. Balance The major issue I have now and always have had with this tree is the very very low survivability for a melee class. We have to get in close to execute our attacks. It does not have the tools to do so frankly. You wind up running around trying to kite your opponents. If I wanted to kite why would I play a melee class? Infiltration at least has decent control measures to manage the flow of close quarter combat as well as improved stealth and mobility. Balance with dots and ramp up time will not last unless we run around all over trying to wear opponent down. I have a double bladed lightsaber for what? High end flashlight as compared to Sages? Just not fun!

The change to armor, as in adding an additional percentage amount, is a buff. The change to TkT, as in adding DR vs healing along with removing healing from Combat Technique, is not a buff. If you do not have the stacks of DR that can be awarded from TkT with 3 stacks of Harnessed Shadows you are taking more damage than you could be. That means you are likely to attempt to keep this buff up, which hampers play undoubtedly. Before this patch if you had 3 stacks of Harnessed you could strategically use it to self heal if needed. If you really wanted to get it off with less chance for interruption you could pop an immunity to force attacks, etc. Point is, you were not feeling like you had to use the TkT but rather chose to. That said, the amount of armor and overall damage reduction for Sin tanks after the prior BW nerf was poor anyway. If this amount of armor and the self healing were in place then it would be a buff. As it stands it can be arguably a lateral move or change, requiring change in gameplay and perhaps a buff for PvE. It has not made us any stronger in PvP. Conqueror gear and you may have 35% DR using the talent from Balance tree as well. The amount of time you will have the 4 stacks permitting you to attain 39% DR is not significant and if you try to maintain that resistance you will not be able to operate as a tank, switching guard, doing knockdowns and interrupts, etc. Any minor change in rotation and you lose the stacks. It is simply a poor mechanic for the fluid nature of PvP and offers little to no benefit. Some argue that making it last longer as in 18 secs will help. I am not inclined to agree, BW needed to find a way to maintain the self healing mechanics for this class.

Having done a few dailies but mostly PvP since 2.5 as a KC Shadow I must say I am very underwhelmed by these changes. No matter what the math seems to suggest the play has been hampered for me. I am not a real PvE player and have not nor will ever even attempt Nightmare ops, etc. cause I find that very boring so I cannot state if we as tanks would perform better in that area. I do dailies, flashpoints and few ops for some cash, to test rotations, and to have fun with some friends who only PvE. Otherwise if I want a challenge I choose PvP. The added DR from TkT and the minor boost in armor protection do not appear to compensate for what we had prior to patch. Obviously we all know that folks are running all over the place in PvP, using CC constantly, interrupting, etc. I find it troubling to even have to be bothered determining if I have 4 stacks of DR all the time or if I can get it up again prior to the 12 sec lapse. Using other abilities in the mix of battle also interferes with this. I choose not forego mixing it up cause mostly it would make the game lame and dull playing the same rotation with little to no variety. In short, I seem to not have 4 stacks of DR often. I guess that makes me a poor Shadow tank but hey, we can't all be the best!

Freezing Force and Awe can be real difference makers in a wz such as Voidstar. Get in tunnel and spam it to keep the enemy dragging behind your capper. So many uses. Enure is icing on the cake but it is pretty cool that they have that, can't be mad even if a little jealous.

Very nice write up Zabuza. I would suggest using the Elite War Hero Stalker Bracers to rip out +40 power mods in lieu of the other suggestion as the bracers are easier to afford. Also, in same line of thinking use the Elite War Hero Force Master bracers or whatever for the +40 crit. In general best to look at the bracers (maybe belts) first to see if you can get the mods you want before the pieces with set bonus armors.

The Revan Mask still clips or shows through the top of the hood. It also shows this way on the graphic embedded within the animated frame on the home page of this swtor site. You can clearly see the silver top through the hood on the character.

I don't really notice the extra 10 Force the few times I have used that talent. I don't have builds or armories like the other posters do. I have tried plenty and settled on some I prefer because of my experiences. In truth, there is nothing you would gain from any link I did even if I did have them. Only so many abilities in any of the trees and though many here can get quite creative it is really a matter of understanding the talent or bolster to it and how you would best utilize it. Sure some claim this or that is best but I have never been convinced that one size fits all.

I understand what you say concerning PUGs and also about the dots. PUGs are beyond our control of course but the dots thing is of course situational. Yes they will break the cc but it lasts for an additional 2 secs upon break by damage. I use it when Balance specced to interrupt the enemy and control the fight - get off an additional attack or two before they can respond or whatever. Even if they are dotted it is still useful so unless I know I am saving it for something I may as well use it, it will come off timer in a min for reuse but for the time being it served me. Just my play style.

Armor penetration is useful but I don't have enough points in my builds for it so I often do without. I like the other talents I mentioned more. Increasing the damage you do with Clairvoyant Strike or Double Strike by 6% as a result of investing in Applied Force is again something I only do if I have 2 points I don't have anyplace else for. Improvements in damage are useful of course but remember to keep useful abilities in mind. Things to help you control the flow of the fight and be more capable overall.

I agree with use of Shadowy Veil as well. I get that talent for either Balance or Infiltration specs. Who can have enough damage reduction? As for Force Breach, it is a main damaging ability so using it when you have the force to do so makes sense. Sometimes you want to time it for a big hit or finisher when bringing down a healer but that is situational. Try to use Force Potency before firing it off to get the increased chance to crit and damage if you can. Adding to a talent to allow you to use it more often is a personal choice. If you don't have anything else for the points then why not? If you think you can benefit from increased use of Battle Readiness or some other talent you could go for that, but as I said - it's all personal choice and play style there. Some don't go for Force Slow increase, I personally like it because again, I dislike being kited so it helps my play style. After playing a bit more you will see what you are more comfortable with. I am sure that will impact your decisions more than I can here. Hope that helps.

Although all Shadows benefit from stealth, Infiltration Shadows rely on stealth. Due to this I find Misdirection very necessary to achieve the goal for gaining the advantage and being able to properly pick targets in a skirmish when playing infiltration. You don't want to be popped out of stealth any easier than it already is and the added movement helps some to stay on target when they kite. I would recommend you have it in your build. Xak Tsaroth He who teaches also learns...

One thing I will say Shin your efforts to bolster this community are commendable. Many of us come here to either learn or perhaps share what we have learned and that's cool. You have been rather tireless in your sharing. I do sometimes think it would be appreciated by you if we could give you more insight into some factors but on average it is you who is doing the teaching. Anyway, I hope you know it has been appreciated and kudos to you! To the original poster, no intentional hijack here. I hope you don't mind my giving praise where it is due. As Shin pointed out you are improving. I would think that in Madness you could use inst whirlwind a bit more but perhaps you do and I just could not see it in this latest return to madness video. Take care and thanks for sharing! Xak Tsaroth He who teaches also learns

Infiltration is viable and fun. So is Balance. And yes hybrids work as well. May as well add Kinetic to it all! I have tried them all for decent stretches. I doubt anyone can really tell you what to try but I can say they all have their place and can be fun if you play the spec for what it is intended. I played Kinetic (tank) as a defender and protector. Really good for the team and assist role for dps or guard for healer. I have a full WH survivor set for that. Never did the dps tank thing. I have seen the numbers and vids on it but still I preferred being the role in PvP. As infiltration before and after patch 1.4 I was able to do my job - burst down or greatly harass the other team's healers and dps specs, steal nodes, cause mayhem. After 1.4 my job was made easier of course but still playing the spec as a killer primarily it shines. Sure you could compare numbers to other classes and make arguments but who cares if you want to play as a Shadow. If you want to play what's best for this or that then you are aiming at a moving target because the developers will change things inevitably. Stalker set for this. Balance is very fun though can be a little more difficult to master in comparison to the other two. Burst is not as prevalent but you can cause some serious pain and harass the enemy. You need high crit rates here to benefit from the heals and increase your own survivability. I recommend the Force Master set bonus for the extra heals when using Mind Crush. You will get to use it often if specced properly and it is a free cast to boot so it's all win. Maybe I did not help you at all with this post and I am sure there are many varied opinions. Also, there is a plethora of information available on this. I hope you pick something fun for you (try em all just to see if you need to) because that may make all the difference in the end! Xak Tsaroth He who teaches also learns...

Well if you only consider burst then I suppose but I play infiltration with use of Battle Readiness which makes the technique damage double so looking at 800 plus internal per damaging hit on 25% chance. Two hit attacks like clairvoyant strike with an added 800 internal damage that often seems like plenty of damage that is not easily reduced. Tree allows for the cool down on Battle Readiness to be reduced so it can be used often enough but used as an opener it is very punishing alone in my experiences. Xak Tsaroth He who teaches also learns...

Also infiltration/deception technique causes internal damage on 25% chance with hits so yeah they do plenty internal damage as well. Xak Tsaroth He who teaches also learns...

The "1" is important to some cause in order to effectively use that ability it provides a 50% reduction in force cost as well as opponent's armor. It procs fairly often even at just 10%. The Endurance talent becomes useful not only to allow for greater survivability with higher health but it factors into the consideration when using talents like Force in Balance and Harnessed Shadows. Depending on your spec you are likely to have either of these and they both heal you as a percentage of your total health. Higher health yields better healing and again increased survivability. Xak Tsaroth He who teaches also learns...

I also gave it a try for a number of wz's. I was able to effectively kill tough opponents solo. No force issues. I did have moments in which I was looking for a "big hit" ability and nothing seemed available (this could be to my lack of experience with the spec, etc.). Force Breach was a staple in rotation. Getting stacks of Harnessed Shadows was noticeably harder because I am spoiled by having Slow Time. Then again, the enemy died fast enough as it is. I wonder how I managed before the patch... but I digress. In any case, damage was good, utility was good in that having Force Pull and Spin Kick is always nice. Overall it makes for a nice spec though not a chart leader in my opinion if that is what you are looking for. It gets the job done and helps toward the win. Remarkably a more team oriented spec than I had first considered it to be. I also made some slight alterations to the spec listed. I picked up some Misdirection in lieu of Celerity, etc. Xak Tsaroth He who teaches also learns...

I read what he stated as playing a spec that you enjoy or find "fun". That would suit your play style. It is still a game after all and if it's not fun it's not worth playing. Xak Tsaroth He who teaches also learns...

Actually, sadly, there is nothing of consequence. Wz are just for fun and gaining gear, ranked wz are for fun, gear and possibly egos. There is nothing in the game that measures whether the Republic or Empire is winning the war at any given time. Open world pvp with objectives that matter, have some permanence, have consequence, effect one factions gains or losses, etc. is what's needed. Perhaps in that world a "lone wolf" or small strike force of them may be able to go to a point on the map and surprise an enemy, affect an important outcome, etc. The wz is too small, has too few players to a team, to comprise a small strike force of "lone wolfs". In ranked you are looking for the edge to assure the fleeting victory that it grants. I like a win but something that bears consequence over a longer period of time would be more appreciated by me. I apologize if I derailed the thread. Later. Xak Tsaroth He who teaches also learns...