Class Changes: Hatred Assassin / Serenity Shadow

[Ottoattack]

Because you can't have the best of every world at the same time by the very definition of balance.

And like I already said, Assassin base class and Utilities offer more than enough to survive key points in nearly every fight. It's not a bad thing that you might be forced to play Deception for one or two bosses just so you won't die.

 

AoE reduction similar to what is already in place for other Disciplines is fine. Other than that, we don't need it.

Anyone that thinks we do doesn't know how to be mindful of their own ability/cooldown usage.

 

 

But by all means, push survivability buffs. I always wanted to see if I could beat my 64-0 winstreak in 3.0's soloranked preseason.

 

Without survivability buffs Hatred is nothing more than a second rated dot spec. No one is saying we should go back to 3.0 levels, but even then, the main issue was not Hatred was too survivable or dealt too much single target damage. The issue was that it dealt massive AOE.

 

In PvP, why would anyone play this spec at all? No range, terrible survivability and not a burst spec.

[Evolixe]

Without survivability buffs Hatred is nothing more than a second rated dot spec. No one is saying we should go back to 3.0 levels, but even then, the main issue was not Hatred was too survivable or dealt too much single target damage. The issue was that it dealt massive AOE.

 

In PvP, why would anyone play this spec at all? No range, terrible survivability and not a burst spec.

 

Pressure. And that's all you should play it for. If you want Burst and Sturdiness you go Deception. Pressure creates a natural deterrent on it's own, which I already explained. A buff to Damage is also a buff to Survivability.

 

Either way Death Field should have its 30m back, and perhaps Lacerate could do with a radius boost of 10-20% (absolutely not more)

 

However you needn't forget that Lacerate is cooldownless.

As opposed to 3.0 where your dotspread had a cooldown. It now does not.

You can actually spread it more now than before. It just also requires a little more effort and that's not a bad thing.

[FtWorthJim]

So I presume there won't be a chance we'll be seing Force Lightning returning to Sith Assassins in a more mobile form? I still think the ability shouldn't have been removed, instead we should have been given the choice to pick an utility that would allow Sith Assassins to cast Force Lightning while moving and have like a "slow down" effect on the target.

 

Why even have sorcs if you want all of their abilities on your sin. Be reasonable in your requests.

[Darthanimus]

There is absolutely no way that Hatred should be challenging Deception (which is currently by far the most survivable melee spec) at survivability. Like I said, Hatred should be a glass-cannon. As long as you are just taking a lot of damage and may require a certain degree of "babysitting" by the healers at key moments it's fine.

Only thing is core mechanics need to be survivable, but I believe that given the Classwide defensives that is entirely fine.

 

DoTs should have more survivorbility than a burst class to be playable in PvP. The one thing that ruins this game is the hard to kill durable burst specs.

[Evolixe]

Why even have sorcs if you want all of their abilities on your sin. Be reasonable in your requests.

 

I honestly agree that it shouldn't have been taken away. It offered utility but wasn't exactly a strongpoint. And it was only really useful when combined with Recklessness. Which is also generally not really a tradeoff you want to make.

 

It was a niché, it wasn't powerful at all but it had it's use.

Stuff like that is good for the game and shouldn't be taken away.

 

As far as his suggestions go.. yeah.. that would actually give it power. Lets not do that.

 

 

 

DoTs should have more survivorbility than a burst class to be playable in PvP. The one thing that ruins this game is the hard to kill durable burst specs.

 

http://i.imgur.com/iWKad22.jpg

Edited June 9, 2017 by Evolixe

[DenariusJay]

Is this all that is happening in 5.3? Or will there be more class change?

[Darthanimus]

I honestly agree that it shouldn't have been taken away. It offered utility but wasn't exactly a strongpoint. And it was only really useful when combined with Recklessness. Which is also generally not really a tradeoff you want to make.

 

It was a niché, it wasn't powerful at all but it had it's use.

Stuff like that is good for the game and shouldn't be taken away.

 

As far as his suggestions go.. yeah.. that would actually give it power. Lets not do that.

 

 

 

 

 

http://i.imgur.com/iWKad22.jpg

 

If DoT specs had more survivorbility then no class would be redundant in PvP like lethality and innovative ordnance etc .. So the pic you linked is a little foolish to be honest. We obviously have different ideas on how this game should be played.

[Evolixe]

If DoT specs had more survivorbility then no class would be redundant in PvP like lethality and innovative ordnance etc .. So the pic you linked is a little foolish to be honest. We obviously have different ideas on how this game should be played.

 

Hatred had no Survivability in 3.0 either. All of it's strength came through it having so much pressure that it just forced people to play with a backup plan and not use everything instantly.

 

Despite it not having said survivability, it was still the most OP spec that's ever gone live; save for launch Operative.

Edited June 9, 2017 by Evolixe

[Evolixe]

I'd like to see a complete rework of the Lightning Charge/Force Technique.

Instead of being a tiny and boring passive damage/force generator.. make it play a much bigger role.

 

Make it do guaranteed damage, lets get rid of all this bs "chance" stuff. Because it's bad for balancing purposes.

You just cannot account for RNG completely.

 

There are many things we could do;

 

Stacking Debuffs

Active Cooldown Reduction

Some sort of effect when both DoTs have ran for X time...

 

There are SO MANY things that can be done here.

 

But they just choose the easy "Add X% and Y%" without thinking of the side-effects. It's frustrating to be honest.

[Darthanimus]

Hatred had no Survivability in 3.0 either. All of it's strength came through it having so much pressure that it just forced people to play with a backup plan and not use everything instantly.

 

Despite it not having said survivability, it was still the most OP spec that's ever gone live; save for launch Operative.

 

Save a burst spec with too much survivorbility (eg the oper at launch). How do you explain away why in PvP every oper you see is either medicine or concealment, and every merc you see is arsenal or bodyguard?

[Evolixe]

Save a burst spec with too much survivorbility (eg the oper at launch). How do you explain away why in PvP every oper you see is either medicine or concealment, and every merc you see is arsenal or bodyguard?

 

Not because of Survivability. But simply because the DoT-specs aren't powerful enough to live up to their Bursty counterparts. None of them do enough damage in PvP to be worthwhile.

[shyroman]

Save a burst spec with too much survivorbility (eg the oper at launch). How do you explain away why in PvP every oper you see is either medicine or concealment, and every merc you see is arsenal or bodyguard?

 

Because neither lethality or io are pressure specs. They don't have the aoe damage to pressure the team like old hatred did. Being able to do slightly higher sustained dps on a single target is not what is needed from dot specs in pvp, it's aoe pressure (also why madness sorcs were so good before).

[Chemists]

From a PvE standpoint, the damage buffs look nice. However I'm not sure how I feel about the majority of the buff going in to execute. Lastly I think all DPS specs need AoE DR in some form ( and not just from AoE Taunt on a 45s CD). Either that or the AoE damage in Operations needs to be tuned down because right now on the majority of fights there's no reason to run a spec without AoE DR due to the shear amount of excess damage they take.

[FlavivsAetivs]

Yeah Serenity could use an AoE damage reduction.

 

Otherwise, good changes. I'll contact and see if Hayward can theorycraft what this will do to its parse.

[Darthanimus]

Not because of Survivability. But simply because the DoT-specs aren't powerful enough to live up to their Bursty counterparts. None of them do enough damage in PvP to be worthwhile.

 

I completely disagree! The answer is they need more survivorblity. Look at the parse records for each class, lethality/ruffian 1st for dps output and innovative ordnance/assault specialist 4th highest dps output. if dps is king why are these specs not top rankings. It is survivorbility!

[Nightblazer]

Is this all that is happening in 5.3? Or will there be more class change?

 

No they are just posting the first of several they are changing. They'll post the others as the day / weeks continues. It even says at the beginning:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=923981

 

Hey folks,

 

As Keith mentioned in the roadmap, we want to start the process of having weekly discussion threads here on the forums. Let's get this started with our first topic, Class changes starting with Game Update 5.3. Let us know what you think of the list! Are these the Disciplines you expected to see? Are any missing and if so which ones and why?

 

The following is each Class/Discipline we are currently looking into changing. By Friday, we will begin posting in-depth threads on exactly what is happening to each Discipline. This will include whether they are being buffed or nerfed and why, along with the specific planned changes. These threads will get posted over a few weeks. Here is the current summer list:

• Sorc and Sage
  
  • Madness/Balance
    
  • Corruption/Seer
    

  [*]PT and Vanguard

  • Pyrotech/Plasmatech
    

  [*]Assassin and Shadow

  • Hatred/Serenity
    

  [*]Sniper and Gunslinger

  • Virulence/Dirty Fighting
    
  • Engineering/Saboteur
    

  [*]Merc and Commando

  • Innovative Ordnance/Assault Specialist
    
  • Arsenal/Gunnery
    

 

You will obviously have a number of questions, but here’s a few that may be on your mind:

 

Why are these Disciplines being looked at for changes?

Between data and player feedback, these are the Disciplines that appear to be most in need of change. Whether that is that they are too good, or not good enough, these Disciplines need attention first.

 

What about the missing Classes/Disciplines?

If a Class or Discipline is missing from this list it doesn't mean they won't be receiving changes at all, it is just that they are not receiving changes in the near future. In most cases this means that those Classes and/or Disciplines are in an ok place. It doesn't mean they don't need changes (both buff and nerf) but that other Disciplines need them sooner.

 

When will we receive a detailed breakdown of the changes?

I will be working with the team on getting the exact changes out to you as soon as they are ready. Based on what I know today, we will start posting those threads (which will be posted by Discipline) this week and throughout June.

 

Thanks everyone!

 

-eric

[Evolixe]

I completely disagree! The answer is they need more survivorblity. Look at the parse records for each class, lethality/ruffian 1st for dps output and innovative ordnance/assault specialist 4th highest dps output. if dps is king why are these specs not top rankings. It is survivorbility!

 

The fact that it parses high doesn't mean it does good damage in PvP.

[Deewe]

Jumping in to thank you for the great communication especially posting ahead the changes and hopefully keeping some room for tweaking based on players feedback.

 

Also I /bow to all the players that knowledgeable about those classes. The more the details and specifics, the more BioWare will be able to look beyond their bigdata and make the game more balanced so more fun for everyone.

 

That being said, shameless plug: would love BioWare to implement some kind of weapon tuning allowing players to change the default color of lightning both on saber and the ones shot from the hands to others colors (red, while...). Have to admit the purple one is kinda turning me away from playing those classes.

Edited June 9, 2017 by Deewe

[Darthanimus]

The fact that it parses high doesn't mean it does good damage in PvP.

 

Ranged DoTs! What the hell could go wrong! Aim! Fire! DoT Spread! The fact that DoTs tick and take time to ramp up is why DoTs will generally speaking be a second choice in PvP. There are the obvious exceptions like 4.0 balalnce/madness sage, but they did so well cause of the agro dump and defensives. Sorc/Sage is second choice now because there are better choices with regards to burst and survivorbility in classes/specs like e.g. gunnery/arsenal and engineering/ saboteur. Ergo my point exactly, DoT specs need more survivorbility than they have.

Edited June 9, 2017 by Darthanimus

[Evolixe]

What part of pressure do you not understand? Ugh.. I'm really done trying to explain. You're wrong.

[Darthanimus]

What part of pressure do you not understand? Ugh.. I'm really done trying to explain. You're wrong.

 

Pressure vs burst and survivorbility? No contest! Pressure is ok with enough support!

[Evolixe]

Pressure vs burst and survivorbility? No contest! Pressure is ok with enough support!

 

That's kind of the point. You can't have AND pressure, AND Survivability. You SHOULD have to be babysat.

 

I'd love to see a meta where DoT/Burst/Healer/Tank combos are ideal.

[Darthanimus]

That's kind of the point. You can't have AND pressure, AND Survivability. You SHOULD have to be babysat.

 

I'd love to see a meta where DoT/Burst/Healer/Tank combos are ideal.

 

Omg You can pressure with a burst spec too.. its not mutually exclusive

[WayOfTheWarriorx]

DoTs should have more survivorbility than a burst class to be playable in PvP. The one thing that ruins this game is the hard to kill durable burst specs.

 

There is virtually no difference between DoT specs and burst specs in this game. That old adage that DoT should do more damage than burst doesn't apply because DoT specs have higher burst than classic DoT specs and Burst specs have higher sustained damage than classic burst specs. Bant addressed in 4.0 and still applies. I have the webpage saved so I'll paste the post exact excerpt here directly so you don't have to scroll through all the other posts on the page and include the original link after it for verification if such is desired or the the proceeding part. It was posted in october of 2016.

 

There is very little difference between Burst and Sustained in SWTOR. All of the DoT classes rely more on Big Hitting moves than they do DoTs and the Burst DPS have all been toned down to the point where most of their moves do same damage. The biggest difference between Burst and DoTs is not sustained damage, its ability to change targets quickly vs setup time. But there are very few fights that require a target to be killed in less than 10 GCDs which lets all of the DoT classes to stand equal to the Burst classes (and the DoT Application is already factored into the DPS for those classes).

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=847112&page=74

 

There is virtually no difference between DoT specs and burst specs in this game. That old adage that DoT should do more damage than burst doesn't apply because DoT specs have higher burst than classic DoT specs and Burst specs have higher sustained damage than classic burst specs. Bant addressed in 4.0 and still applies. I have the webpage saved so I'll paste the post exact excerpt here directly so you don't have to scroll through all the other posts on the page and include the original link after it for verification if such is desired or the the proceeding part. It was posted in october of 2016.

 

There is very little difference between Burst and Sustained in SWTOR. All of the DoT classes rely more on Big Hitting moves than they do DoTs and the Burst DPS have all been toned down to the point where most of their moves do same damage. The biggest difference between Burst and DoTs is not sustained damage, its ability to change targets quickly vs setup time. But there are very few fights that require a target to be killed in less than 10 GCDs which lets all of the DoT classes to stand equal to the Burst classes (and the DoT Application is already factored into the DPS for those classes).

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=847112&page=74

 

PVP does seem to favor burst over DoT because DoTs are more easily healed through and don't have sudden damage spikes, with all the healing that goes on, which can at times make killing anyone difficult, pressure nonetheless plays it's part. The form the damage comes in is fairly irrelivant of it ends up killing you. Where DoTs have an advantage over burst in PVP is with regard to uptime. If you can get away from a burst opponent or at least stay out of their striking range, they cannot any longer hurt you, even employing an escape will still allow the DoTs to tick on you even once you've "gotten away" to safety.

 

This applies similarly in PVE, wherein fight mechanics can force melee combatants to leave striking range of the boss in order to avoid certain high damage AOE/ cleave attacks or the like. The uptime of dots still ticking when a player moves away favors the DoT spec in that regard, as does longer periods of uptime. One is not inherently superior than the others over all, the circumstances determine that, sometimes DoTs specs are more effective for certain fights sometimes it's the burst spec that is best.

 

That being said, there is no foundation for a DoT spec or a burst spec to have any better inherent survival than the other.

 

In PVP, dot specs are a lot of fluff damage, that's no big mystery, while fluff damage might not be as meaningful or telling in many cases, it is not the less damage that is being sustained and needs to be healed. Your less likely to die from a dot in PVP, but it will kill sometimes regardless.

 

The ability to employ dot spreads also have the added benefit in many cases of not even requireing a physical hit on a target in the first place and the ticks do not need to be followed up each time they tick by any further action, whereas a burst spec must physically hit its target each time it intends to do more damage. Single target damagers are considered the more enviable because of this, and it represents a more dangerous type of engagement.

 

It's unfortunate that DoT specs tend to get less appreciation of the damage they put because a lot of it is fluff damage. Burst specs may do more damage single target in PVP but thats is largely a product of reduced uptime on any single target where Dot Specs excel at targets they have larger amounts of uptime. Dot specs recieve more heals from their attacks than burst specs do, which is another advantage they over burst specs which helps with survivability to a certain degree. That matters less in PVE but more in PVP. Simply put, you can't have everything, nor would it be fair.

 

In a system that grants higher dps to ranged DPS than to much of the melee specs is counter to typical DPS standards of mmo combat. Melee should possess greater DPS than ranged because Ranged has greater uptime and tends to be somewhat less likely to incur damage in the think of things where melee have no choice but to put themselves in.

 

The days of strict lines of DPS based on form of deliverance are gone. Very few of the old standards apply in this game.

 

IMO Evo is spot on with regard to this subject.

Edited June 9, 2017 by WayOfTheWarriorx

[Evolixe]

Eh that might be true for Assassins but I don't think it is for the other DoT specs.

And honestly.. I never thought adding big hitters to the array of abilities was a good idea anyway.

 

DoT specs shouldn't finish people off, thats what you have burst specs for. DoT specs just get everyone low and put stress on the healer. Eventually, with enough stress.. a healer could crumble under that anyway.

But it shouldn't be a Hatred thing to finish people off.

 

As of leeching strike.. I liked the idea when it just gave you a bunch of health. I don't think it should have to be used for real damage. I mean it puts flavour into the PvE rotation.. but we shouldn't want for something that hits hard.

Edited June 9, 2017 by Evolixe