Keith - As the new producer........

[Tsillah]

Blah blah blah. Are you pretending that you are not glad to see Ben gone, and that you are pleased to see Keith take the role.. even though you have absolutely no idea if it may just be "out of the frying pan and into the fire"? and yes.. you AscendingSky DO blame all of SWTORs faults on Ben... and that is your choice to do so. But an MMO shift (good or bad) is not the result of any one person in a studio ..ever.

 

Neither of us are actually talking to each other though .. these comments by both of us are for other readers, based on our personal opinions. So I really don't understand why you want to go on some personal vendetta toward me as "just being contrarian". I guess you just don't like it when people do not see things your way.

 

I'm glad to see you're doing your part to defuse this situation.

[Rion_Starkiller]

.....

 

>>>> But the real point here is people are pretending that everything about 4.0 and 5.0 that they do not like is all because of Ben Irving.

 

Personally, I don't think Ben has been the source of all that is perceived as evil, though I also do not think he did anything remarkable with SWTOR during his tenure on the game. He made the same mistakes every other producer has on this game... say one thing and do another, misrepresent, and shifting the bars as they go forward, allegedly lying to players faces, etc. etc. etc.

 

Why, given we have always had weak results from the studio in terms of MMO style expectations from players, would anyone here expect anything remarkably different from a different person in the same seat.. particularly a studio incumbent with no actual experience yet as a producer of a large MMO. That level of "fluffy-faux-trust" by some here makes no sense to me at all. Note: I am not saying to throw Keith under the bus on day one, but I also do not advocate giving Keith trust in advance given the history of production, and producers, on SWTOR.

 

The Creative Director has to be given direction. He does not design on whim. I believe he gets his direction from the producer. If that is the case, then yes, Ben would have been responsible for what was made the past two years.

 

The difference is : WHAT (ben) was designed vs HOW (Charles) it was designed. Does that make sense? The WHAT is the most important part because it also includes things like the scope of the new content. If players are unhappy with content in a chapter, then they can be mad at Charles. If they are mad at chapters because they don't want any chapters at all and want PvP maps, then that is/was Ben.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Rion_Starkiller

[TUXs]

Blah blah blah.

Strangely, this is how I view 99% of your replies

[Andryah]

I'm glad to see you're doing your part to defuse this situation.

 

I am. I have now put him on ignore for continuing to passive aggressively attack me as "just being contrarian". He's been doing that for a while now.. discussing me in a negative manner rather then the topic. I guess because he does not like my viewpoints and would rather resort to personal attacks. Note: I did not comment to him or about him until he started in with me with this contrarian nonsense.

 

Apparently he does not understand, or does not accept that this is a discussion forum and it IS OK for different people to have different viewpoints and disagree.

Edited April 18, 2017 by Andryah

[Andryah]

The Creative Director has to be given direction. He does not design on whim. I believe he gets his direction from the producer. If that is the case, then yes, Ben would have been responsible for what was made the past two years.

 

The difference is : WHAT (ben) was designed vs HOW (Charles) it was designed. Does that make sense? The WHAT is the most important part because it also includes things like the scope of the new content. If players are unhappy with content in a chapter, then they can be mad at Charles. If they are mad at chapters because they don't want any chapters at all and want PvP maps, then that is/was Ben.

 

I agree that for video games, a Creative Director takes high level direction from management. But I think you are underplaying the power of a Creative Director role in the context of video games.

 

Ben was definitely unpopular with players... more for what he said rather then what was done with 4.0 and 5.0, in my view. I think video game producers in general are disliked by many of the players they server with their products. It comes with territory.

 

But let's look at this particular topic a bit differently..... The topic is Keith as Producer. Some players who had real angst and even hatred for Ben are quick to see this as progress. Yet.. if we look at the list of producers over time for SWTOR.. I don't recall any of them getting good credit from players for the state of the game.. ever. Oh.. there is some reminiscing by some about the great old days of 3.0 or 2.0 or Vanilla launch...... but it ignores the larger picture... there is simply no credible evidence any producer has been material in either positive or negative movement in the state of the game. This is a studio issue, not a person issue, when you see this with such persistence.

 

Now.. just to circle back to Charles for a moment.... yes.. he in his role as Creative Director and would take high level (strategic) direction from the suits at EA and Austin Bioware as to where to take the game. And I would like to use the recent debacle of GC to drill down on this for a minute. The suits probably did say to Charles and his team "create a new method to reward end game gear that allows all players of all types of content, but particularly our sweet spot of solo and small group story content, to access said content. A fair request... and now it's up to Challes to lead the creative innovation that moves to achieve this strategic direction change. Yet...... when you look at GC when it launched... it had warts all over it that indicated either a lack of care and attention to detail, or incompetence, in terms of how it effectively paid out rewards for effort. The concept of GC was not bad, but it was a terribad implementation in 5.0. What was implemented contradicted what Ben said we would see, and they clearly gave little or no thought in the design team as to how to properly weight payouts of Cxp such that players did not feel the need to cherry pick which content pays out fastest. Nor did they put in the obvious... a merchant based token system to mitigate the effects of bad RNG results in crate openings. Nor did they release it such that it came anywhere near the pace of GC leveling that both Ben and Eric promised us in pre-release communications. While the buck stops with the producer, it is clear to me that the design team was running open loop on their GC design, and that rests completely on Charles Boyds shoulders in my view. But the negative narratives are not on Charles, they are all falling on Ben.

 

My advice to all players is to trust results and not promises or imagination as to how Keith will or will not turn around the current issues with this game. Getting on the "Go Keith Go" bandwagon is misplaced trust in my view at this point. But it's fed by the emotional energy of those that hated Ben and blamed Ben for all the ills they see in SWTOR recently. I bear Keith no ill will (nor did I with Ben)...... but only results matter. We will see no results in the near term to let us know if Keith has his cap on straight or not in his role as producer. And it is not clear to me at all that Keith operates as any form of "change agent for good". If he did.. where was he in his previous role for the last year?????? As you noted earlier.. one key role of producer is to schedule and drive beta testing... and as we can see this studio sucks at pre-release testing, compared to many of it's competition. Pre-release testing, and test escapes, is what I will be watching for signs as to what we actually have with Keith.

Edited April 17, 2017 by Andryah

[TUXs]

I agree that for video games, a Creative Director takes high level direction from management. But I think you are underplaying the power of a Creative Director role in the context of video games.

 

Ben was definitely unpopular with players... more for what he said rather then what was done with 4.0 and 5.0, in my view. I think video game producers in general are disliked by many of the players they server with their products. It comes with territory.

 

But let's look at this particular topic a bit differently..... The topic is Keith as Producer. Some players who had real angst and even hatred for Ben are quick to see this as progress. Yet.. if we look at the list of producers over time for SWTOR.. I don't recall any of them getting good credit from players for the state of the game.. ever. Oh.. there is some reminiscing by some about the great old days of 3.0 or 2.0 or Vanilla launch...... but it ignores the larger picture... there is simply no credible evidence any producer has been material in either positive or negative movement in the state of the game. This is a studio issue, not a person issue, when you see this with such persistence.

 

Now.. just to circle back to Charles for a moment.... yes.. he in his role as Creative Director and would take high level (strategic) direction from the suits at EA and Austin Bioware as to where to take the game. And I would like to use the recent debacle of GC to drill down on this for a minute. The suits probably did say to Charles and his team "create a new method to reward end game gear that allows all players of all types of content, but particularly our sweet spot of solo and small group story content, to access said content. A fair request... and now it's up to Challes to lead the creative innovation that moves to achieve this strategic direction change. Yet...... when you look at GC when it launched... it had warts all over it that indicated either a lack of care and attention to detail, or incompetence, in terms of how it effectively paid out rewards for effort. The concept of GC was not bad, but it was a terribad implementation in 5.0. What was implemented contradicted what Ben said we would see, and they clearly gave little or no thought in the design team as to how to properly weight payouts of Cxp such that players did not feel the need to cherry pick which content pays out fastest. Nor did they put in the obvious... a merchant based token system to mitigate the effects of bad RNG results in crate openings. Nor did they release it such that it came anywhere near the pace of GC leveling that both Ben and Eric promised us in pre-release communications. While the buck stops with the producer, it is clear to me that the design team was running open loop on their GC design, and that rests completely on Charles Boyds shoulders in my view. But the negative narratives are not on Charles, they are all falling on Ben.

 

My advice to all players is to trust results and not promises or imagination as to how Keith will or will not turn around the current issues with this game. Getting on the "Go Keith Go" bandwagon is misplaced trust in my view at this point. But it's fed by the emotional energy of those that hated Ben and blamed Ben for all the ills they see in SWTOR recently. I bear Keith no ill will (nor did I with Ben)...... but only results matter. We will see no results in the near term to let us know if Keith has his cap on straight or not in his role as producer. And it is not clear to me at all that Keith operates as any form of "change agent for good". If he did.. where was he in his previous role for the last year?????? As you noted earlier.. one key role of producer is to schedule and drive beta testing... and as we can see this studio sucks at pre-release testing, compared to many of it's competition. Pre-release testing, and test escapes, is what I will be watching for signs as to what we actually have with Keith.

So in your opinion, the wrong guy was replaced...we got it. I happen to disagree. I think EA knows more about their structure than you do, and they made this move, not the players.

[AscendingSky]

The bizarre, surreal irony of this thread is to watch the two biggest wanna-be forum moderators and White Knights try to downplay the enthusiasm of others. Are there any guarantees? Of course not. But why the two of you always piss in every bowl of Cheerios is borderline pathological.

 

/boggle

 

/salute and hugs to Tux and Ascending Sky and also Tsillah, all of whom seem to be voices of sanity. I think the two I'm criticizing are obvious.

 

Yay hugs! Hugs are good!

 

They want to push us to be negative so they can then criticize us for being negative, label us 'haters' and 'trolls' and claim the moral high ground. That's how white knights work. Us actually being optimistic about developments ruins their strawman narrative. I agree, it's pretty pathological an attitude, but there you go.

Edited April 17, 2017 by AscendingSky

[VirtualMorrigan]

Not only that, but according to them all of our anger toward the Producer was misplaced and it all should've been directed at the Creative Director. Even then, this user would STILL claim that all this forum says for the most part is thhat they don't listen to the playerbase and/or they're incompetent. This user would STILL be making us out to be solely here to hate or troll.

 

Ah, he has a lovely history of laying blame at the customer at all times. For example, his reply to GC has always been "Oh, in a good guild you can just gear through crafting" and then inevitably we get a page detailing how smart he was and how superior he and his guild are for cooperating so well, and everyone who cannot or will not do the same is at fault, because "a workaround exists if you want to take it."

 

He probably just didn't get enough appreciation and admiration for his "workaround" and the way he is so admirably coping with any issues that arise, that's why he's getting more salty.

[Tarbuch]

That would take an act of Lucas!

 

To be honest, Lucas would just replace the command experience with midiclorites.

[merovejec]

Anyway.....

 

from this its clear Ben moved on to make the new SW game and Keith replaced him. This does not matter at all since the only objective the Devs have is to keep the game running and profitable. It doesnt matter what opinions and ideas Keith has, he cannot make any changes due to funds and size of the teams.

 

So for me, its not a big change.

[mmmbuddah]

No they haven't and I think it's because the devs sorta painted themselves in a corner with the early operations....some of that content had exclusive story that if you missed it by not doing the Op, the main story didn't make sense, going forward they need to add a supplementary 'This is what's going on" quest for those that don't partake and provide people who do take the time and trouble to do the operations adequate rewards and a reason to move to the next one.

 

I think if SWTOR sorta backed away from the current post Raid MMO mindset and adopted a everyone matters mindset the community as a whole would be happier.

 

Raiders are part of that everyone, as of the last two years it has been nothing but story.

[ShieldProtection]

.....I'd like to congratulate you on the promotion! I'm glad to see a new face in such a pivotal role. I'm personally going to hold back my more recent vitriol and extend to you an olive branch in the form of the benefit of the doubt. I'm hoping that you have a great deal of plans and ideas to execute in this new position, so that we can all start to enjoy and grow things together.

 

Also, I'd like for you to please keep the lines of communication open with us, and on a regular basis. Even if it is information that might make some mad at first, please, please keep the dialog open. And one more thing, losen up Musco's chains so the he can interact more with us. Especially in the event that you and your team are tied up.

 

I'm looking forward to this change, rebuilding trust, and hopefully the new direction you will bring to the game. Best of luck.

 

Man you posting too many aggressive/negative things on forums, I hope everything is okay

in your life :/ its not like SWTOR dying or something.

Edited April 18, 2017 by ShieldProtection

[Celise]

Anyway.....

 

from this its clear Ben moved on to make the new SW game and Keith replaced him. This does not matter at all since the only objective the Devs have is to keep the game running and profitable. It doesnt matter what opinions and ideas Keith has, he cannot make any changes due to funds and size of the teams.

 

So for me, its not a big change.

 

it depends what type of producer keith is, two types i know of, if he is there on behalf of EA, most his time is observing and reporting but if directed by EA he can make changes. if he is there on behalf of bioware then he can be a lot more involved in the game and how the teams are organised so long as deadlines EA set are met.

[Costello]

With all the hope that Keith is going to bring something to the game, which is a good thing given the forums are pretty dead (aside from when posters argue with each other) and at least my impression of the game its pretty dead as well.

So Something does need to be done so, Go Keith.

 

However what can he hope to do, the game has been losing players since a month after launch (some may suggest 5 years of hype leading to a fairly WoW like MMO may not have lived up to the dream) but much more obvious in the last year and a bit. So what can he hope to do turning this around and getting people to come back.

 

I personally don't think one Op boss every 3 months will draw the Raid Community back into the game. Likewise a flashpoint or a chapter isn't going to make anyone sit up and notice, likewise none of these things are really very press attention grabbing. 'SWTOR is going to be adding A Flashpoint!' or 'ESO is going to be adding Morrowind with 30 hours of Story, 4v4v4 battle fields, a New Class, new Dungeons and other stuff I can't remember.' They are up against stiff competition.

 

So lets say they have 20 members of Staff left:

3 Writers - So unless you want Story/Dialogue/Lore they wont be able to contribute much,

1 Combat Class Balance Guy - Currently on Paternity Leave.

2 Community/Marketing People - So of no use to adding content and don't seem to have much to market either

5 Cartel Market Developers - These are the guys that keep the lights on figuratively so you can't mess with them

2 Engineers - These are the guys that keep the lights on the servers literally.

 

So that leaves you with 7 art/programming/design guys who can at a push put out a chapter + daily area + 1 Operation boss and some bug fixes and quality of life in about 4 months though the quality wont be grate so it will have to be delayed, the more complex the more delay.

 

I appreciate that I haven't included Customer Support, Testers, Audio etc etc. I am sure there are more than 20 people working at BW Austin, you have guys that sit in offices that don't have any hands on activity with the game. But I think 20 is fair for how many people the producers has responsibility for. After focusing on Story will it make sense to then spend a year developing 2 operations in the hope that the majority of people that stuck around for the story also happen to be hard core raiders and will see that as worth while? If they are not you they will have done the best to drive off the raiders by focusing on Story and then driving of the Story players by focusing on raiders gambling enough of the raid community that left come back.

 

Short of a massive funding boost I don't see what we are hoping Keith appointment will achieve.

[Celise]

With all the hope that Keith is going to bring something to the game, which is a good thing given the forums are pretty dead (aside from when posters argue with each other) and at least my impression of the game its pretty dead as well.

So Something does need to be done so, Go Keith.

 

However what can he hope to do, the game has been losing players since a month after launch (some may suggest 5 years of hype leading to a fairly WoW like MMO may not have lived up to the dream) but much more obvious in the last year and a bit. So what can he hope to do turning this around and getting people to come back.

 

I personally don't think one Op boss every 3 months will draw the Raid Community back into the game. Likewise a flashpoint or a chapter isn't going to make anyone sit up and notice, likewise none of these things are really very press attention grabbing. 'SWTOR is going to be adding A Flashpoint!' or 'ESO is going to be adding Morrowind with 30 hours of Story, 4v4v4 battle fields, a New Class, new Dungeons and other stuff I can't remember.' They are up against stiff competition.

 

So lets say they have 20 members of Staff left:

3 Writers - So unless you want Story/Dialogue/Lore they wont be able to contribute much,

1 Combat Class Balance Guy - Currently on Paternity Leave.

2 Community/Marketing People - So of no use to adding content and don't seem to have much to market either

5 Cartel Market Developers - These are the guys that keep the lights on figuratively so you can't mess with them

2 Engineers - These are the guys that keep the lights on the servers literally.

 

So that leaves you with 7 art/programming/design guys who can at a push put out a chapter + daily area + 1 Operation boss and some bug fixes and quality of life in about 4 months though the quality wont be grate so it will have to be delayed, the more complex the more delay.

 

I appreciate that I haven't included Customer Support, Testers, Audio etc etc. I am sure there are more than 20 people working at BW Austin, you have guys that sit in offices that don't have any hands on activity with the game. But I think 20 is fair for how many people the producers has responsibility for. After focusing on Story will it make sense to then spend a year developing 2 operations in the hope that the majority of people that stuck around for the story also happen to be hard core raiders and will see that as worth while? If they are not you they will have done the best to drive off the raiders by focusing on Story and then driving of the Story players by focusing on raiders gambling enough of the raid community that left come back.

 

Short of a massive funding boost I don't see what we are hoping Keith appointment will achieve.

 

no point speculating on a doom scenario, it's no better than those who argue just because they can.

 

bioware have a lot to make up and prove to the players they burned recently including myself, but even so i think what you mention is a little premature, give it some time and lets see what direction bioware go in.

[merovejec]

it depends what type of producer keith is, two types i know of, if he is there on behalf of EA, most his time is observing and reporting but if directed by EA he can make changes. if he is there on behalf of bioware then he can be a lot more involved in the game and how the teams are organised so long as deadlines EA set are met.

 

Yes but without resources you can be as much oriented as you want, it will do you no good if your team can barely make EA deadlines!! Then there is no time for own ideas.

 

Anyway, he says he plays the game so that would mean he should be able to fix all the issues we have, only time will tell if that is so! Unless, ofc as I said he doesnt have the resources.

[merovejec]

However what can he hope to do, the game has been losing players since a month after launch (some may suggest 5 years of hype leading to a fairly WoW like MMO may not have lived up to the dream) but much more obvious in the last year and a bit. So what can he hope to do turning this around and getting people to come back.

 

So lets say they have 20 members of Staff left:

3 Writers - So unless you want Story/Dialogue/Lore they wont be able to contribute much,

1 Combat Class Balance Guy - Currently on Paternity Leave.

2 Community/Marketing People - So of no use to adding content and don't seem to have much to market either

5 Cartel Market Developers - These are the guys that keep the lights on figuratively so you can't mess with them

2 Engineers - These are the guys that keep the lights on the servers literally.

 

So that leaves you with 7 art/programming/design guys who can at a push put out a chapter + daily area + 1 Operation boss and some bug fixes and quality of life in about 4 months though the quality wont be grate so it will have to be delayed, the more complex the more delay.

 

The guilds already did come back since PTS was annouced. People went in and been testing.

 

Of course, not "everyone came back" like Ben Irving said for the Story, but you can already see the guilds on Harbinger etc. Nevertheless, i also dont wanna spread the doom, but seeing Ben leave only confirms that even more will leave for the new game Bioware is making (KOTOR) so they should fix as much as possible before the game really loses support.

[Costello]

no point speculating on a doom scenario, it's no better than those who argue just because they can.

 

bioware have a lot to make up and prove to the players they burned recently including myself, but even so i think what you mention is a little premature, give it some time and lets see what direction bioware go in.

 

I'm not saying its all doom, I'm asking what do people think Keith or Bioware or EA can do at this point to bring things back and to make people sit up and say hey lets give SWTOR ago.

 

A chapter this quarter, a flashpoint for summer maybe a PvP map in the Holidays seems like it is a rear guard action to keep what players they have. But what would get people to come back short of a full expansion and rework combat engine and a galaxy that doesn't exist 5 years apart.

 

I'm all hopeful for Keith being a producer, I don't believe everything bad was Bens fault equally I don't know short of using some of those Cartel Market millions to add a real expansion what we are hoping Keith will turn around or improve.

[Celise]

I'm not saying its all doom, I'm asking what do people think Keith or Bioware or EA can do at this point to bring things back and to make people sit up and say hey lets give SWTOR ago.

 

A chapter this quarter, a flashpoint for summer maybe a PvP map in the Holidays seems like it is a rear guard action to keep what players they have. But what would get people to come back short of a full expansion and rework combat engine and a galaxy that doesn't exist 5 years apart.

 

I'm all hopeful for Keith being a producer, I don't believe everything bad was Bens fault equally I don't know short of using some of those Cartel Market millions to add a real expansion what we are hoping Keith will turn around or improve.

 

Ben was a producer as well, based on everything so far with 5.0 and the fact he endorsed his gc to the upper management as something he was proud of. i mean as a producer he would of been involved in game choices with the lead developer and others like the lead writer to come up with ideas for the future of the game and ultimately if he was there on behalf of bioware then his nod would of been a deciding factor on if it should of given the go ahead and with EA's blessing, 9 months later it is released. he is partly to blame at the very least for what happened.

 

we all make choices on what we do, from breathing to driving a car to dangling off a ledge for a selfie. no one can be without blame for something they have done at some point. ultimately the choice made has to be the best one can make of the situation.

 

what you are asking is if Keith will make the right or wrong choice based on the decisions Ben made previously and if his team can do the job because you suspect that bioware isn't on top of their game after 5.0. but that isn't a fair point to make as i mentioned Keith needs some time to plot his course and see what comes of it. ultimately he needs to make the most of the choice he has.

If that means most of the year without content and scrapping the new ops in favor of doing something different from previously or moving up the ops and thenpumping out sp content at record pace, again that is on keith.

[Smuglebunny]

How stupid is EA not to fund a game with STAR WARS in the name while 3 movies come out...

 

If EA gave the devs some money maybe they could do...something.

 

For PVP to not get touched in half a year cuz THE ONE GUY WHO DOES THAT is out is an enormous failure of leadership. To have ONE PERSON on something like that.

 

ONE GUY.

 

 

One.

 

I think my rage has been misdirected....It should be towards EA.

[Clarian]

Short of a massive funding boost I don't see what we are hoping Keith appointment will achieve.

I'm hoping for one thing: an option to turn off the DvL pop-ups. That alone would bring me back to the game...other than that, my sub ends in about a week. I REALLY hope that wouldn't require a massive funding boost.

[Soljin]

I actually feel kind of sorry for the new guy...Sure this could look good on the resume' but only if you can keep this game from going down in MMO history as a blight.

 

Many seem displeased with the game but everyone is all over the board.

 

Some are demanding changes that are relatively small and don't seem concerned about the big picture at all.

 

Some are asking for the game to be rolled back to 4.0.

 

Some are making suggestion threads about potential modifications to the current system (This is where I land).

 

Some are saying everything is fine (The "I walked 6 miles each way in 3' of snow to school" crowd).

 

There really is no visible united understanding of what the player base wants because when someone starts a thread trying to propose something people come in and start randomly asking for other things or fighting.

 

So can we be surprised if they don't get it right...really?

Edited April 18, 2017 by Soljin

[TUXs]

The bizarre, surreal irony of this thread is to watch the two biggest wanna-be forum moderators and White Knights try to downplay the enthusiasm of others. Are there any guarantees? Of course not. But why the two of you always piss in every bowl of Cheerios is borderline pathological.

 

/boggle

 

/salute and hugs to Tux and Ascending Sky and also Tsillah, all of whom seem to be voices of sanity. I think the two I'm criticizing are obvious.

Thank you I find it remarkable how quick they are to quell any positivity on the forums, especially since they are the ones always claiming others are negative...just goes to show that they really aren't interested in debate in any form, just drama.

Edited April 18, 2017 by TUXs

[Edyn]

I'm hoping for one thing: an option to turn off the DvL pop-ups. That alone would bring me back to the game...other than that, my sub ends in about a week. I REALLY hope that wouldn't require a massive funding boost.

 

With all the quality of life improvements (I use that term loosely) they've implemented since 5.0, how hard is it to create a toggle option for the frequent, garish spam related to an event that no one I know has any interest in?

 

The DvL notifications are horribly distracting and completely suck the "Star Wars" out of the game every time I'm forced to look at them, which is unreasonably often. If add-ons were allowed, I'd pay out of my own pocket to commission a developer to create a DvL pop-up blocker. Wait... now that I've said that, we'll probably see a DvL pop-up blocker option appear in a Cartel Crate sometime in the near future.

[Rion_Starkiller]

I'm hoping for one thing: an option to turn off the DvL pop-ups. That alone would bring me back to the game...other than that, my sub ends in about a week.

 

Are you serious? :rolleyes:x3

 

I'm eye-rolling you so hard right now.