5.0 Gearing - A Gambler's Nightmare (Attention: Eric Musco)

[Alphahorizon]

The primary people who defend this system by enlarge are non raiders and players who do little PvP. And only now do some PvP because of the lucrative CXP gains it offers. I feel that the posters who put forth the narrative that they are willing to lose their raiders and PvPers are accurate in their assessment in regards to where the existing development team wants to take this game.

 

What gets me is that before this patch happened they rolled out a system that encouraged us to play all 8 class stories (at least to level 50 or to the end of chapter 3) as part of a great achievement hunt to get (IMO) a FUGLY circular tank type speeder and title. This utter change in direction, to me, points to a very leaderless approach and lack of vision to a proper game design.

 

I too am on Jedi Covenant. I am an officer in a small guild. We had up until the month leading up to 5.0 approximately 12 players that were active. Each doing our own thing but would come together to do an occasional Operations and group FPs/HM FPs. I myself am part of the RC channel and fill in where needed. And I, love to run Ops. Sage/Sorc heals being my favorite (Thanks Dianiss for the guide). I haven’t touched NiM, mainly Story or HM. So yes, there’s much for me to do still in regards to what Lu’kimis put out. By the time 5.0 rolled out we were down to 3-4 consistent log ins, if that per day.

 

One of our guild members was invited and did take part in the PTS test for the now released 5.0. This player is the person who this expansion is catered towards. They do not partake and have never taken part in any of our operations. They barely run FPs. Even they said (because they couldn’t say anything directly related to what they were playing) that we should get ready for some hefty changes that we probably won’t like, and to make sure to spend any crystals on companion gifts where we can. That person admitted that they have gotten more set gear then they had ever had in his history of playing. But for them, they also stated that it didn’t make much of a difference since they don’t play the harder content, and don’t require the min/maxing of stats to maximize their DPS/Heals output.

 

Something that is not touched upon to much but also seems to be an important point is this: They put in effect a system that allows for 2 routes that give a crazy amount (in comparison to other events= to time spent doing said events) of CXP. Those 2 things are PvP and Uprisings. You can run 5-6 matches or 5-6 Uprisings in the time it takes to get through one SM Operation. And the difference in CXP gain is astronomical when run over a longer period of time. This will cause them (The Dev Team) to say “Hey look our metrics show that players LOVE these 2 events.” This observation has caused me to understand that now, they will have all the justification they need to never design another Operations again.

 

I cancelled my Sub in December which should have ended Dec 14th upon hearing of another “Emergency” stream I decided to resub on a month to month and not every 6 months. I listened to the Stream on Dulfy because I couldn’t make it to the live. After that I re-cancelled my sub. I know there is little hope with the development team that exists that the content we are looking for will ever be introduced again. The new stories are decent when run through 1-2 times. Some players can make it through 5-6 times. This doesn’t hide the fact that it is a very lazy design when you take out those 25 chapters. After that, then what? You start to peel away the shallowness that is everything else contained within 5.0

 

The fact that the CM in the last month has been bombarded with sales/promotions, new packs (one which was put out early to maximize profits-No fault for a business to make money) ect…tells exactly where their collective heads are at. They fix most problems related to items within these packs when problems arise. Yet we have bugs that have persisted for the length of the games very existence.

 

Not to mention taking away gear vendors who sold said gear, that I now find myself disintegrating EVERY TIME. That is lazy, uninspired, unimaginative and points to the lack of proper leadership (and probably financial resources as well). Their gambling game edition they released was the straw. To me (and IMO ONLY) I feel that this is beyond unethical. Yes we choose to pay for a sub, but IF we want to maximize our ability to run the content that is harder we were already running a few months ago (and for years, again) then we have to partake in this failed experiment. And after disintegrating the last 72 crates (spread between 2 sages and 2 Sorcs) out of 115 totals, it gets old.

 

For those who do not do Operations that require the Min/Maxxing of stats to keep that Tank up, or DPS clobbering the baddies you wouldn’t understand. But I can assure you that the vets that run these Ops or are Hardcore PvPers understand casual mode very well, as most (if not all) have run ALL 8 original stories.

 

I have read, at length numerous ideas to fix this system. I have also read numerous suggestions that throughout the years that would made this game GREAT! And here was the rub for me. The condescension and lack of concern for those who helped “Keep the lights on” and utter disregard to engage in the community who play their product. For us, it isn’t a product as much as it is a means to connect with other SW fans in an MMORPG (MMO-RPG-should I type it again) as it was sold upon release. They built us a galaxy. We are the ones who built those bonds within this galaxy.

[Threjyan]

The primary people who defend this system by enlarge are non raiders and players who do little PvP.

 

the thing is:

they came for the pvpers and nobody cared

they came for the pvers and nobody cared

they will come for them aswell, but by then there will be nobody around to care

[FlavivsAetivs]

On the note of the PTS, I want to point out that I know quite a few players who were part of the 5.0 Beta, and when we started discussing the INNUMERABLE amount of bugs with 5.0, especially some game breaking ones (like class stance doubling, etc), they mentioned that ALL OF THEM WERE KNOWN ABOUT ON THE PTS. Every single one, and they let them go to live.

 

That says something there.

 

~ Eudoxia

[Andryah]

The primary people who defend this system by enlarge are non raiders and players who do little PvP.

 

Hardly anyone supports the system of GC as it stands. So stop this nonsense.

 

What some players are saying is..... bypass it until it's fixed.. if it's ever fixed.

 

Insisting that you simply MUST grind GC to progress your gear in 5.0 is complete fiction. Even set bonus, which has advantages, can be handled on an interim basis by reusing armor mods from your 4.0 set bonus set. It may mean a bit more effort and team coordination until better set bonus drop somewhere down the road.. but to insist you cannot do this until then.. is absurd.

 

There are generally two schools of thought right now for gear early on in 5.0, and NEITHER ONE thinks GC is OK as is and needs a lot of work:

 

1) Grind for crates - as in must grind, and grind, and grind... and it's denying access to the content the player actually wants to play. This is the self-inflicted ice-pick in the eye approach. Ripe for playing victim and demanding changes, quitting, or any other protest move.

 

2) Don't grind for crates - GC need not be a grind to start your gear progression in 5.0... because crafting can materially fill gaps and holes in gear needs until later on..... when GC crates come along as part of normal periodic rewards for just playing the game as you would normally do based on your play preferences.

 

The choice rests with the player.... but I can tell you that a good number of guilds have quickly figured out that choice 2 is the better path to forward progress without all the angst and drama. Even solo players have found that crafting works nicely and they likely will never need anything better, even though they will eventually see better gear anyway.

 

The only players that really should be worked up about 5.0 gearing would be perpetual PuGers, who do not belong to a well organized guild. So join a good guild or move on in my view.

[Andryah]

On the note of the PTS, I want to point out that I know quite a few players who were part of the 5.0 Beta, and when we started discussing the INNUMERABLE amount of bugs with 5.0, especially some game breaking ones (like class stance doubling, etc), they mentioned that ALL OF THEM WERE KNOWN ABOUT ON THE PTS. Every single one, and they let them go to live.

 

That says something there.

 

~ Eudoxia

 

Not unusual at all for studios to release with known bugs. Like it or not.. it is pretty common with MMOs. This is not guidance software for cruise missiles you know, it's a consumer game.

 

They look at each one and decide if it's so bad they either have to fix it before release... or simply pull the feature until later, OR let it release and schedule a fix later on. Now, in my observation... release dates are pretty well fixed in stone... so you either fix the bug or pull the feature if it is game breaking ( a subjective term that players do not get a vote on by the way). This particular studio is more likely to delay release of feature or content if it does not meet their minimum criteria for release. We have seen this numerous times over the years.

 

Anyone that expects an MMO to be bug free needs to stop playing MMOs. History has shown that some bugs in MMOs are never fixed... not even in WoW. Bug prioritization is always a complex and moving target for complex software such as an MMO.

Edited January 4, 2017 by Andryah

[LordBritain]

I totally agree with the OP and it's why I have 1 day left on my Sub.

[Tsetso]

Totally agree with everything OP said.

 

However i don't think they'll change it because this is probably their main goal - to make gambling addicts who will then gamble their real money on the CM. This is exactly the model mobile games such as SW: GoH work and it seems that BWA have decided to follow that model.

Edited January 4, 2017 by Tsetso

[Khevar]

Not unusual at all for studios to release with known bugs. Like it or not.. it is pretty common with MMOs. This is not guidance software for cruise missiles you know, it's a consumer game.

While you are not incorrect, I have to say this is a pretty blasé attitude towards quality.

 

Some bugs are low impact, and do not have a significant affect on gameplay. If you were talking about bugs of this nature, I could see your point.

 

But when an MMO is aware of more significant bugs, and moves forwards anyway, I find it an indictment on the part of the studio. This isn't a reason to run around in circles screaming, but such a thing certainly doesn't deserve a "free pass".

 

There's nothing wrong with being unhappy with a studio for having low standards of quality.

 

I'll leave you with this story by way of example:

http://trenchescomic.com/tales/13651

Edited January 4, 2017 by Khevar

[Babacheck]

We represent a 750+ member guild on the Jedi Covenant server. The guild runs 9 weekly raid teams and Friday and Saturday night open guild raids. Its members are also active in pvp and other SWTOR activities.

 

Prior to 5.0, raid team members were dedicated to progression as well as fun*and easy operation runs. People were committed to gearing their toons, honing their skills and tackling and completing the hardest content in the game. If one team member had bad rng on rolls for gear, the team could help them get the gear they were missing to help the team advance. With the advent of 5.0, all that has changed.

 

5.0 brought some good changes, such as the class changes which provided interesting new abilities to many classes. However, 5.0 also brought perhaps the most criticized, frustrating and hostile game change ever to be introduced to an active MMO.

 

In many people's perception, SWTOR can now*be likened to a gambling casino which feeds on people's propensity to seek the chance reward, provided there is intermittent reinforcement to keep them going. Put the money in the slot, pull the handle and see if you get the gear. If not, buy another command boost to feed the hungry SWTOR beast, grind some more and try again. Some people have said that they*consider SWTOR*to be*an unregulated online gambling site and wonder if federal regulators are investigating this aspect of the gaming community.

 

Rather than people gathering to focus on progression raiding, people feel compelled to focus on the grind to potentially get a gear drop that will help them with the harder content. Some people with good rng get multiple drops, while others endure the frustration of not getting a decent drop for perhaps 70 or 80 command ranks. Casual players are often more geared than hard core raiders. A team cannot support its undergeared members because the gear is all rng. Players are also forced to focus on lower level content which they have cleared for years until they can acquire the gear to continue with their progression teams. Some players simply do not have the time to grind the command ranks and will not be able to access the gear they need to continue on their progression teams. For others, the tedium and boredom of the grind is extreme.

 

People who have submitted tickets complaining about the system have reported that they get a generic response that demonstrates no real concern about the situation. Calls to customer service have been met with the recommendation to post a complaint on reddit or other forums to get the attention of SWTOR executives since there is nothing customer service can do to address the situation.

 

5.0, in many people's view, is a system which is frustrating, demeaning to long time raiders, and yet addictive to those with the slightest gambling tendency. Perhaps there should be a SWTOR Anonymous site for those who cannot break away from the grind long enough to tend to personal affairs. The whole system is a travesty to a game that people have played for years and immensely enjoyed because it provided challenging and enjoyable content.

 

The changes announced for January go a small way to address the current level of frustration many players are experiencing. However, the changes are minimal and will not truly fix a system that has been horribly broken. Players are leaving the game and others are contemplating leaving if a big fix is not coming. While casual players may like the new changes because they do not have to do operations to get gear, the reality is that casual players do not need the new gear.

 

In our view, it is imperative that SWTOR substantially address the broken gearing system before there is a mass exodus from the game. Raiders have endured no new operation content for over two plus years. To now strip them of their gear, force them to grind and provide such a small chance of gear is disrespectful and a slap in the face to a community that has paid for and supported this game since inception.

 

Simple fixes could include such things as upping the rate and quality of drops in the command crates, lowering the tier level requirements, and providing guaranteed gear drops on each boss rather than a random drop on some bosses with only one guaranteed drop. Such changes would still provide SWTOR with the financial gain from command boosts, but also provide gear to those players who actually need it to continue with progression raiding.

 

We strongly recommend that SWTOR consult with the GM's of leading guilds on all servers to come up with a*satisfactory and substantive fix to this*situation before people leave the game and it dies.

 

OMG I so agree with this post I am so angry right now that it was not me who started this However I am so grateful that this is out there and hopefully will be fixed ASAP.

 

TO THOSE WHO ARE POSTING HERE AND DIVERTING THE SUBJECT PLEASE STOP

[DrJAWz]

Hardly anyone supports the system of GC as it stands. So stop this nonsense.

 

There are generally two schools of thought right now for gear early on in 5.0, and NEITHER ONE thinks GC is OK as is and needs a lot of work:

 

1) Grind for crates - as in must grind, and grind, and grind... and it's denying access to the content the player actually wants to play. This is the self-inflicted ice-pick in the eye approach. Ripe for playing victim and demanding changes, quitting, or any other protest move.

 

2) Don't grind for crates - GC need not be a grind to start your gear progression in 5.0... because crafting can materially fill gaps and holes in gear needs until later on..... when GC crates come along as part of normal periodic rewards for just playing the game as you would normally do based on your play preferences.

 

Sorry to be the one who has to point this out to you all that share this point of view, but... How are you going to get the schematics to craft your "better" gear without participating in the grind? sure there are guilds like Failure that have talented teams that can down the 5.0 content with 4.0 gear on veteran and master difficulty, but from what I've seen they are the exception, not the rule. The rest of us had to at some point participate in a lot of pvp or cxp grinding to gather gear and reverse engineer components to obtain the ability to craft upgrades.

 

If your argument is that you run operations to get schematics, then your part of the progression community that has had to go through operations bosses that your skill and gear can carry you through, and then have obtained a schematic through luck or coordinated planning. Like you, other guild members and teams are trying to do the same thing as their own band-aid to "fix" this flawed system. However, in doing things this way you're both acknowledging that the system is not working as intended and that instead of voicing the concern to the developers asking for a fix, you're sitting on your thumbs or following the flock of sheep giving the impression that all is well in the community. (which it isn't)

 

I want to believe that as a community of subscribers and gamers we can collaborate a true fix that the developers can code and implement so that pvp'ers, raiders, story content grinders, weekend warriors, and the elites of swtor can all be happy while playing a game we all enjoy in our own way.

[killershrike]

Sorry to be the one who has to point this out to you all that share this point of view, but... How are you going to get the schematics to craft your "better" gear without participating in the grind? sure there are guilds like Failure that have talented teams that can down the 5.0 content with 4.0 gear on veteran and master difficulty, but from what I've seen they are the exception, not the rule. The rest of us had to at some point participate in a lot of pvp or cxp grinding to gather gear and reverse engineer components to obtain the ability to craft upgrades.

 

Or you happen to know someone who can craft for you.

On my homeserver are a few people who craft 240 "for free" (you send the required mats and get the crafted piece back when they got around to your order).

[mpatsos]

/signed

[Fearchronicle]

I completely agree with cash i wish i started this thread

/signed

[Aldael]

/signed

[omaan]

CXP also needs to be legacy wide for me to stay around in this game.

 

For me too. I can't play this game only for one class it's too booring. And considering that I am a pvp player i just can't play for my other 208 or even worse geared characters because i get killed pretty fast by those who are 234+ geared... and this cxp boost, lol iam still thinking it's buy to win, because those who were using them are how fighting on warzone in 236-240 gear while others only in 234.... Game became stupid money gambling system

[Dbohrius]

Yeah, /signed.

 

CXP needs to go, fast!

[RiVaN_]

As someone who grew up with a gambling addict and had their own flirtations with Gambling addiction I have had to limit my time in SWTOR since 5.0.

 

I'm not blaming BW for any of my problems, but let me simply say that I agree that 5.0 is a compulsive gambler's nightmare.

 

 

For those who don't know how to vote on a thread please scroll to the bottom of the page and on the right hand side chose the drop down box to give this thread 5 stars. If this thread receives a high enough ranking BW may take notice.

[Edyn]

That said, that is one of the main things that is so frustrating about the grind they introduced, that it is all to get back to doing old scaled content. No one is really interested in grinding just to be able to go back to the old content they were already doing.

 

Exactly. It's points like these that lead me to believe in one of three potential scenarios:

 

1. The current dev team is ignorant and/or incompetent. They haven't played very many MMOs and so they have no idea what is generally considered to be "fun" in an MMO environment and really doesn't understand what's going on.

 

2. They're all about profit... period. They're simply trying to maximize profit in targeting a specific player base consisting of grinders and gamblers knowing full well that they're alienating the rest of their vast playerbase who have been attracted to the game/the SWTOR universe for all sorts of different reasons (OPs, FPs, class stories, explorable planets, companion interactions, etc.) And, since grinders and gamblers produce the most revenue for them, continuing to produce the other content that the rest of the playerbase loved won't happen because it isn't profitable; however, baiting those players to believe the content is coming, is profitable, so they will continue to bait and give no definite answers, even if they know full well that the desired content won't be developed.

 

3. They're out. They are intentionally trying to drive players away and tank/end of life the game for some reason.

 

All of these scenarios is a disaster for many players/customers and some will never give BW/EA another dime because of it. I know this, because I'm one of them: my subscription expires in less than a day and they'll never get another penny from me.

Edited January 5, 2017 by Edyn

[CJenn]

I agree with Cash.

/signed

[YlliyaXor]

Not unusual at all for studios to release with known bugs. Like it or not.. it is pretty common with MMOs. This is not guidance software for cruise missiles you know, it's a consumer game.

 

They look at each one and decide if it's so bad they either have to fix it before release... or simply pull the feature until later, OR let it release and schedule a fix later on. Now, in my observation... release dates are pretty well fixed in stone... so you either fix the bug or pull the feature if it is game breaking ( a subjective term that players do not get a vote on by the way). This particular studio is more likely to delay release of feature or content if it does not meet their minimum criteria for release. We have seen this numerous times over the years.

 

Anyone that expects an MMO to be bug free needs to stop playing MMOs. History has shown that some bugs in MMOs are never fixed... not even in WoW. Bug prioritization is always a complex and moving target for complex software such as an MMO.

 

Applying a layer mask to cartel market hairstyles is difficult, two years is not enough time to complete such a difficult task.

[captsmash]

For those who don't know how to vote on a thread please scroll to the bottom of the page and on the right hand side chose the drop down box to give this thread 5 stars. If this thread receives a high enough ranking BW may take notice.

 

This^^^^

[aelyweeks]

We represent a 750+ member guild on the Jedi Covenant server. The guild runs 9 weekly raid teams and Friday and Saturday night open guild raids. Its members are also active in pvp and other SWTOR activities.

 

Prior to 5.0, raid team members were dedicated to progression as well as fun*and easy operation runs. People were committed to gearing their toons, honing their skills and tackling and completing the hardest content in the game. If one team member had bad rng on rolls for gear, the team could help them get the gear they were missing to help the team advance. With the advent of 5.0, all that has changed.

 

5.0 brought some good changes, such as the class changes which provided interesting new abilities to many classes. However, 5.0 also brought perhaps the most criticized, frustrating and hostile game change ever to be introduced to an active MMO.

 

In many people's perception, SWTOR can now*be likened to a gambling casino which feeds on people's propensity to seek the chance reward, provided there is intermittent reinforcement to keep them going. Put the money in the slot, pull the handle and see if you get the gear. If not, buy another command boost to feed the hungry SWTOR beast, grind some more and try again. Some people have said that they*consider SWTOR*to be*an unregulated online gambling site and wonder if federal regulators are investigating this aspect of the gaming community.

 

Rather than people gathering to focus on progression raiding, people feel compelled to focus on the grind to potentially get a gear drop that will help them with the harder content. Some people with good rng get multiple drops, while others endure the frustration of not getting a decent drop for perhaps 70 or 80 command ranks. Casual players are often more geared than hard core raiders. A team cannot support its undergeared members because the gear is all rng. Players are also forced to focus on lower level content which they have cleared for years until they can acquire the gear to continue with their progression teams. Some players simply do not have the time to grind the command ranks and will not be able to access the gear they need to continue on their progression teams. For others, the tedium and boredom of the grind is extreme.

 

People who have submitted tickets complaining about the system have reported that they get a generic response that demonstrates no real concern about the situation. Calls to customer service have been met with the recommendation to post a complaint on reddit or other forums to get the attention of SWTOR executives since there is nothing customer service can do to address the situation.

 

5.0, in many people's view, is a system which is frustrating, demeaning to long time raiders, and yet addictive to those with the slightest gambling tendency. Perhaps there should be a SWTOR Anonymous site for those who cannot break away from the grind long enough to tend to personal affairs. The whole system is a travesty to a game that people have played for years and immensely enjoyed because it provided challenging and enjoyable content.

 

The changes announced for January go a small way to address the current level of frustration many players are experiencing. However, the changes are minimal and will not truly fix a system that has been horribly broken. Players are leaving the game and others are contemplating leaving if a big fix is not coming. While casual players may like the new changes because they do not have to do operations to get gear, the reality is that casual players do not need the new gear.

 

In our view, it is imperative that SWTOR substantially address the broken gearing system before there is a mass exodus from the game. Raiders have endured no new operation content for over two plus years. To now strip them of their gear, force them to grind and provide such a small chance of gear is disrespectful and a slap in the face to a community that has paid for and supported this game since inception.

 

Simple fixes could include such things as upping the rate and quality of drops in the command crates, lowering the tier level requirements, and providing guaranteed gear drops on each boss rather than a random drop on some bosses with only one guaranteed drop. Such changes would still provide SWTOR with the financial gain from command boosts, but also provide gear to those players who actually need it to continue with progression raiding.

 

We strongly recommend that SWTOR consult with the GM's of leading guilds on all servers to come up with a*satisfactory and substantive fix to this*situation before people leave the game and it dies.

 

I'm not much of one who enjoys posting in forums, so I'll make this quick. Let's make SWTOR great again by listening to these posts, which really represents your paying customers' ideas for improvement. Up to 5.0, I really enjoyed this game. I'm really torn on 5.0, and if 5.1 does not fix this RNG crap, I refuse to support your ignorance.

 

/signed petition

 

Adamite <Alpha Strike Force> <Miscreants>

[Thompsons]

It is truely a sad time when I see how some non-raiders think that this system works.

 

You opened this thread with a very good post.

 

Now you as much as declare that only raiders' opinions have any value.

 

My sympathy for your situation -- watching something you worked to build collapse -- just largely evaporated.

Edited January 5, 2017 by Thompsons

[FerkWork]

You opened this thread with a very good post.

 

Now you as much as declare that only raiders' opinions have any value.

 

My sympathy for your situation -- watching something you worked to build collapse -- just largely evaporated.

 

His point is that any raider knows this systems is garbage. Ergo the only people who would defend this do not raid and are deceived by BW into thinking this actually works. Smart casuals would see that this system doesn't benefit them either and this is BW seeing how much they can get away with.

Edited January 5, 2017 by FerkWork

[FerkWork]

Another thing is this system is so heavily weighted against doing Ops. Edited January 5, 2017 by FerkWork