.. and the award for Worst MMO Business Model in 2016 goes to ...

[TrixxieTriss]

Good news, so I got an incredibly positive response from Eric about why this topic was moved after contacting community support:

 

Not moved yet but glad to see Eric is on top of this and indeed threads like this shouldn't really be getting moved.

 

Thanks in advance Eric when you do move this back.

 

Wow, that's a good response. It shows they can be transparent when they want to be.

[TrixxieTriss]

Indeed - I'll mail Eric again about this. Perhaps he didn't get a chance to pass on to his staff around the moderation of these topics.

 

It's bizarre because before your post about Eric and it being moved, it had already been moved back to gen and I'd commented on that.

So that would mean that they moved it to general about 16-14 hours ago, moved it back to offtopic before you posted earlier that you got the email from Eric.

Then moved it to general again after Eric's email, but then back to offtopic again, then back to general.

What's that? Moved 5 or 6 times now?

 

This is an example of what happens when one mod thinks one way and another thinks another. It comes down to the personality and maybe how they view a topic or how they feel that day. There are lots of times I see things that should have something done and other times it's too heavy handed.

 

I've had threads move in the past that were just as on topic as this thread. One was moved when some people started to troll me and complain about my sexuality. But the topic had to do with same sex relationship options and was going for nearly a week till they moved it. When I questioned why they moved it, I got sanctioned for asking. But none of posts of the people trolling me about my sexuality were removed from the thread. From my perspective, it seemed the mod who moved it had an issue with the topic and the fact that a lesbian was participating in it.

Edited December 20, 2016 by TrixxieTriss

[MeNaCe-NZ]

It's bizarre because before your post about Eric and it being moved, it had already been moved back to gen and I'd commented on that.

So that would mean that they moved it to general about 16-14 hours ago, moved it back to offtopic before you posted earlier that you got the email from Eric.

Then moved it to general again after Eric's email, but then back to offtopic again, then back to general.

What's that? Moved 5 or 6 times now?

 

This is an example of what happens when one mod thinks one way and another thinks another. It comes down to the personality and maybe how they view a topic or how they feel that day. There are lots of times I see things that should have something done and other times it's too heavy handed.

 

I've had threads move in the past that were just as on topic as this thread. One was moved when some people started to troll me and complain about my sexuality. But the topic had to do with same sex relationship options and was going for nearly a week till they moved it. When I questioned why they moved it, I got sanctioned for asking. But none of posts of the people trolling me about my sexuality were removed from the thread. From my perspective, it seemed the mod who moved it had an issue with the topic and the fact that a lesbian was participating in it.

 

No, no Eric mentioned the second move was an error on his behalf - not moderation.

[TrixxieTriss]

No, no Eric mentioned the second move was an error on his behalf - not moderation.

 

Ok, I was trying to track the time line, it just seems like it was moved more than it was.

[ivanhedgehog]

The thing is they should care. Unless they are secretly developing an MMO we are unaware then letting this game slide into the point it no longer meets their profitability goals is not a good thing for them especially in light of how much they may have to for the license to have "star wars" in the first place ( which no one knows how that works - could be flat payment + royalties, could be monthly/annual expectation of payment and royalties etc. ).

 

I guess it's a case of you have to hit rock bottom to make your way back out again. Clearly they care about the game because of the latest trailer and what that would have cost and I think in light of that and the lacklustre performance of the KotET launch we should see a shake up coming.

 

Thing to remember is KoTFE quite likely broke through their goals of where they wanted it to be for the first few months ( highest sub point ) and may well have even tracked along within the realms of their minimum goals ( CM arbiter sabers remember were a massive cash cow on release ). It is only really now I feel we can clearly assume this game is not meeting their expectation.

 

So I guess it's what happens next - do they step in and shake things up or do nothing? I honestly don't believe they will take a "do nothing" approach even though it seems like they might do so from recent lack of intervention. We need remember that recent lack of intervention is on the back of goals being smashed through ( imo of course ).

 

I honestly think that they do care, but that egos at the top have decided they way they shall go and there can be no dissent. Ben can do no wrong is the mind set of the leadership. I think the programmers and artists etc do as they are told, produce what they are told to produce, but when things crash and burn they will be the ones let go. I feel Ben really want swtor to succeed, just not enough to admit that he has made a mistake. at this point there is no way they can produce the volume of content needed to right the ship. They spent that budget on a half assed gearing system that wasnt needed in the first. They need to dump the arrogance and realize that this is business, not art.

Edited December 21, 2016 by ivanhedgehog

[LordArtemis]

This is pure speculation. Take it as you will.

 

My bet is that the same thing that happens here in the forum, perhaps a bit less dramatic, happens at the meeting table as well. I would bet that quite a few of the devs agree for the most part with some of the sentiments proffered here, but can do little to nothing about it.

 

Nor can they express support, even though they would like to do so from time to time...it would put their job at stake.

 

The real culprit....and remember, this is just my completely unsubstantiated opinion....is management. Specifically a few individuals that I can see have their..."mitts"...in things here and there. Perhaps some came from other games, others are from the disastrous early design of the title and have returned....etc.

 

I might even contend that it is possible that every good change made by the general dev staff might be countered by a bad move from management that they HAVE to abide by, like it or not.

 

And then defend it....even if they hate it.

[Durstilla]

I just had to comment on this I came back to swtor from BDO and quite frankly swtor is not fantastic but it is miles better than BDO. BDO is by far one of the worst experiences I have ever had playing a MMO the devs have lied repeatedly to it's player base, refused to give just refunds for in game items, been horribly inconsistent with its policies, oh, and when you ask for clarification on some information that they didnt put in the game (or anywhere for that matter)? They tell you its not their fault that the game doesn't provide the information and that you should write a suggestion about it (at the end of five emails to their "support"). Add on top of BDOs horrible pvp balance (I still have no clue how people find an endgame in that game with no dungeons/raids and lul tier pvp). Swtor is nice compared to that cluster f**k of a game I payed for some fun story and have no interest in renewing my sub for now but if things shape up better end game wise (make command level stuff acount wide) i will most likely resub. That said with my sub I've def gotten what I've paid for.

[ivanhedgehog]

First of all, I think it's logical to assume that when someone says the game ''wasn't making money'', that their meaning is along the lines of ''not profitable enough'', or; ''would not have been worth keeping open''.

By saying that the game is ''on its way out'' you suggest that the game is going to close. I doubt EA would shut something down if it's profitable enough to keep open (unless there are motives that we cannot ascertain), therefore by extension, it's reasonable to assume that you are implying that it is not profitable enough to keep open or, that it ''wasn't making money''.

 

So, the question is; would EA have kept the game open had it remained in its previous state - or was it just a push for reaching the profits that they had previously projected?

 

I don't care about the answer. The point is that taking things literally to a fault is pointless, and doesn't mean you can accuse someone of strawmanning you just because you refuse to read between the lines or consider the full implications of the things that you say.

 

whatever the reason, ea decided to change to a F2p/P2P model. they wouldnt have done this if it was making loads of money. None of us know just what the financials were, just that they had to make huge changes in the game. They didnt do it because they were bored making money.

[LordArtemis]

It is safe to assume that it is likely the F2P change was made for financial reasons. In fact, a Bioware dev specifically stated that "F2P saved the game", paraphrasing of course.

 

Again, as I have said in the past, revisionist history is just that. The game was likely nosediving for a multitude of reasons, not the least of which was a bad design, lack of understanding when it came to target gamers and dev arrogance at the time.

 

I do believe it is quite likely this title would have closed long ago if it did not change it's business model when it did.

Edited December 21, 2016 by LordArtemis

[merovejec]

ROFL i just noticed this thread, I thought it was just such a title, but its really an article :D

 

GG Bioware, so you see its not only us on the forums, people everywhere hate the way swtor is heading. Funny is when you vote at the bottom of the website then 66% of the people voted for swtor. Its just over 2k people but still, its a poll that can already give you some overview.

[Dilemmas]

whatever the reason, ea decided to change to a F2p/P2P model. they wouldnt have done this if it was making loads of money. None of us know just what the financials were, just that they had to make huge changes in the game. They didnt do it because they were bored making money.

 

Yes, you're probably right. I was never actually debating the truth of this idea though.

[Storm-Cutter]

66% of people voting SWTOR is quite a revelation. Edited December 21, 2016 by Storm-Cutter

[DarthSpuds]

Iack of understanding when it came to target gamers and dev arrogance at the time.

 

I think the evidence shows this is still happening now.

 

Recall the DvL achievement fiasco and Eric posting that "they understood the frustration" it caused.

 

No, they didn't. Because if they were capable of genuinely understanding that frustration they would not have taken the DvL achievements away in the first place.

 

Look at how Eric plays in his streams. I bet there is not one BWA staff member working on SWtOR that has clocked up even 100 hours on the live game servers we play on.

 

They don't understand what the players want because they are not players.

They don't understand what the game needs because they don't play it how we play it.

 

So it is arrogant in the extreme for them to think "they know best" and they clearly do think that.

 

All The Best

[trabble]

// deserved

[UglyStik]

I don't disagree that they should be on the list, but they only talk about limiting f2p players. That makes me think they don't actually play the game.

[TUXs]

I don't disagree that they should be on the list, but they only talk about limiting f2p players. That makes me think they don't actually play the game.

I was thinking the same thing...just imagine where the game would be ranked if they DID and had to now deal with this entire RNG fiasco.

[Mubrak]

SWTOR, minimal hotbars, no access to all content, no access to end game, reduced XP, content limits (PvP), credit caps, etc... The only annoying thing here you can buy out of is quickslots... Everything else is either sub or piss off...

 

The problem is, it once worked. Back when I was F2P, in early 2013, I got all the unlocks, even Event Equipment Authorisation. I bought one 2k CC pack back then and used that for some of the most expensive account unlocks, but everything else I could buy on the GTN with my 350k credits budget.

 

When my sub runs out, the only restrictions I have to deal with are the credits limit, crafting being limited to 3 comps and max 1 item each, access to ops / wzs and now Galactic Command.

 

 

Nowadays, no F2P will be able to unlock anything with their 200/350k credits limit, because credits are so easy to come by, that it isn't worthwhile to buy an unlock with CC and then sell it on the GTN for a sum that a F2P can afford. And the Idea that a F2P would buy all those unlocks with CC is silly, that would cost more than subbing for half a year.

 

To make it work again, BW would have to take the inflation into account and increase the credit limits by a factor of 5 or even 10, or drop it altogether.

Edited December 21, 2016 by Mubrak

[MadCuzBad]

Massively Overpowered’s end-of-the-year 2016 awards continue today with our award for Worst MMORPG Business Model of 2016, which is another new consideration for us this year thanks to a proposal from readers strangesands and Roke. As a counterpart to yesterday’s award for the best business model of the year, this “award” is intended to recognize a live MMORPG of any age that has demonstrated a particularly awful business model specifically in 2016, regardless of its past performance. Don’t forget to cast your own vote in the just-for-fun reader poll at the very end!

The Massively OP staff pick for Worst MMORPG Business Model of 2016 is…

STAR WARS: THE OLD REPUBLIC

 

Andrew Ross (@dengarsw): Perfect World’s games – in other words, “free-to-play” that relies on lockboxes and a subscription.

 

Brianna Royce (@nbrianna, blog): BioWare simply hasn’t found its footing with Star Wars: The Old Republic and continues to err with one of the worst free-to-play-but-not-really-so-please-sub models in the genre. It’s been permanently hounded by early mistakes (buyable hotbars), and instead of rising above, it repeatedly alienates the free-to-play, cash-shop-centered playerbase it’s attracted with restriction after restriction. Also, how can you forget that time BioWare literally put lockboxes inside of other lockboxes and were all like, hey guys, check this out, now you can open two lockboxes, you can thank us later? And remember when they redid the cash shop to improve the “visual experience” of opening lockboxes and played that like something we’d want them spending dev time on? How is this even? It frustrates me so much because the game always seems so close to greatness but for the business model issues. Runners-up from me are Pokemon Go, which Niantic seems intent on running off a cliff with constant rounds of limitations and regulations and moneygrubbing, and Black Desert, which set unfortunate precedents for most of 2016’s and now 2017’s imports. I will say that it’s very lucky for quite a lot of up-and-coming games that this category is open only to live titles because if you think our nominees are worth grumbling over, wait until you see what some of the inbound MMOs are up to.

 

Justin Olivetti (@Sypster, blog): Sub-or-suffer: SWTOR’s decision to strongly punish players who don’t subscribe by denying them any endgame gear with the newest expansion is repellant in more way than one.

 

Larry Everett (@Shaddoe, blog): If you want to know how to completely destroy an in-game economy, look no further than Star Wars: The Old Republic. Now, I didn’t mind the monthly chapter release cadence, but I think I was in the minority. But that’s not what made the business model bad. It was the cash shop. BioWare flooded the cash shop with items and at the same time made the good items ridiculously rare. Not only did this make the studio look desperate for money, but because the cash shop items can be traded and sold in game, it blew up the prices of most cash shop items in on the auction house, crippling the in-game economy.

 

Star Wars The Old Republic (67%, 2,153 Votes)

 

Pokemon Go (4%, 120 Votes)

 

RIFT (5%, 162 Votes)

 

Black Desert (5%, 163 Votes)

 

ARK: Survival Evolved (2%, 53 Votes)

 

Neverwinter (1%, 40 Votes)

 

Star Trek Online (1%, 28 Votes)

 

Blade and Soul (1%, 25 Votes)

 

Guild Wars 2 (1%, 21 Votes)

 

World of Warcraft (2%, 70 Votes)

 

Elder Scrolls Online (1%, 21 Votes)

 

Final Fantasy XIV (0%, 14 Votes)

 

EVE Online (0%, 10 Votes)

 

Riders of Icarus (0%, 3 Votes)

 

TERA (0%, 5 Votes)

 

Skyforge (0%, 12 Votes)

 

DC Universe Online (0%, 7 Votes)

 

The Secret World (0%, 5 Votes)

 

WildStar (0%, 11 Votes)

 

ArcheAge (6%, 191 Votes)

 

EverQuest II (0%, 5 Votes)

 

Trove (0%, 7 Votes)

 

Lord of the Rings Online (1%, 20 Votes)

 

Landmark (0%, 11 Votes)

 

RuneScape (0%, 10 Votes)

 

Nothing (1%, 31 Votes)

 

Something else (tell us in the comments). (1%, 38 Votes)

 

 

Thank you Bioware, you should be proud of yourself.

I have often said in many of my past threads that Bioware should be ashamed of itself. The disgusting things that this development team has made have been both repulsive and out right shameful. But somehow they feel no shame at all and continue to stick it to the player base every single chance it gets. We your efforts to disgust people does NOT go in noticed. You have very well deserved the worse game award in the world. You have worked hard to earn it and should be proud. As far as I am concerned you should be ashamed but I trust your not. Have a nice day!

[JennyFlynn]

Glad you felt the need to make your own special thread instead of just responding here.

[MadCuzBad]

They are right... Their F2P model is one of, if not the, most restrictive of all of them.... At least of the big games anyways...

 

ESO, the only real restriction is 10% less XP gain and a crafting bag... big whoop

STO, their only annoying restriction is the cap, which you can buy out of. Otherwise you can do everything a sub can do (shoot most of the PWE games are like this)

LOTRO, hell you can earn your points to buy stuff in game, but your gonna grind for it. You may have to buy the content, but only once.

 

SWTOR, minimal hotbars, no access to all content, no access to end game, reduced XP, content limits (PvP), credit caps, etc... The only annoying thing here you can buy out of is quickslots... Everything else is either sub or piss off...

 

You forgot AION. It is 100% free to play without any restrictions at all. That game went from a declining player base, to now it opens up new servers to handle all the new players all the time. Aion is an old game growing out of control while SWTOR white knights make up every excuse under the sun why this game is failing. People playing AION are not making up excuses. They are having a blast with a smile from ear to ear.

[MadCuzBad]

Glad you felt the need to make your own special thread instead of just responding here.

 

I responded there too

[Six-Echo]

Hadn't seen this posted so ...

 

http://massivelyop.com/2016/12/16/massively-ops-best-of-2016-awards-worst-mmo-business-model-2016/

 

Anyone surprised? I'm not.

 

Umm your quoting a site as if it's legit or something.

[Newyankalt]

Ok... and?

 

Title is pointless and untrue

Edited December 21, 2016 by Newyankalt

[JennyFlynn]

Umm your quoting a site as if it's legit or something.

 

What does legitimacy have to do with it? Massively Overpowered wrote an article and shared opinions concerning SWTOR and other F2P models and the article as well as our own opinion on it is being discussed here.

[Jamtas]

I was thinking the same thing...just imagine where the game would be ranked if they DID and had to now deal with this entire RNG fiasco.

 

If they do lose enough subscribers as their current behavior would seem is the case, opening end game GC system to Preferred would be a logical course. They could at least monetize a weekly "GC pass" or something similar. Something would need to make up for lost sub revenue. Now if they have a quota on sub revenue, that's where things would get difficult.

 

Or, I'm completely wrong and the game is healthy and doing well.