Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

[csslakai]

The luck of SWTOR is that people are really tired of WoW. Patches after patches without bringing something really new. In my opinion, as a 6 year wow player, is that i will not stop playing Swtor because of this bug... at least for now. It's hard to get used but it's something that i hope is going to be fixed in the future. I bet Bioware could not found yet how to solve the Animation/GCD link. They can't forget that building an MMO is more than a challenge when u have a game like wow that is perfect in gameplay matters. They should be more carefull on that. Now they have a serious poblem in hands to solve, and will not be easy for them for sure.

 

For now we can only try to "live with it". We already cried for BW, and probably they new this was going to happen sooner or later. My question is? Is a fluid gameplay, like the one wow gave to us, a secret recipe like Coca-Cola? If yes, BW must be concern!!!

 

May the force be with u BioWare, cause u will need it !

[Oneiros_IV]

I'd love to hear bioware's stance on this critical issue before everyone's paid for 2nd month.

 

That said if game will continue to be designed with animations downtime in mind there will be no encounters to push player's limits no competitive pvp etc. Only the area of gaming where 0.5 sec and controlling character don't really matter. And that doesn't spells bright future as swtor is developing.

[TheHauntingBard]

Well either they fix it and compete with WOW in terms of PVP and PVE.

Or they keep adding story line and consider PVE and PVP as something secondary.

Personally I won't stick for just the story but I think many will do.

 

They will probably wait as long as possible with making such a decision to bleed subs.

[Oneiros_IV]

IF the game is broken for YOU (no matter how/why/where etc is broken) then you MUST stop paying it. BW/EA wont'

 

Wrong. Players can and should strive to make game better. And there are examples of players pushing it through.

 

 

For instance in EVE-online there were massive rebellions, unsub waves and hurf blurf that made CCP (developer) release whole expansion dedicated to fixing hundred long standing problems and engage into constructive polite and intelligent dialogue with players.

 

Worst thing for any game dev is negative reviews and articles in gaming media, basically that's the only thing top-management reads, and when they do, they turn their questioning stare towards designers. It goes like that.

 

Otherwise most companies live in delusional world extremely disconnected from game's realities and how things go.

[dronepilot]

 

The super hardcore elitist who kicks you from his group for playing wrong

 

Its why I don't join groups. I play to my own standards not some one elses.

 

The super casual who takes 5 minute breaks every 5 minutes in your group and noticeably does not perform to standards.

 

Yeah well there might be players like that, and yet again everyone plays at their own pace. There is NO competition.

 

The guy who complains and whines on the forums about getting killed in pvp

 

Much of that is quite justified complaining. Especially when a level 50 is farming low level players. This is very much dishonorable, I really can't see what much XP they get from that, in fact Biowware should cap these levels so you can only attack people within your own level boundaries. Otherwise no rewards for you.

 

The guy who never complains about anything at all and just "Adapts" to just about anything

 

Well I would rather have some one tell me their opinion than not at all. Agreed..

 

The guy who hates this game and just pays subscription to post hate on the forums

 

Thats a waist of a subscription then, I am not sure there is any foundation for that claim either. I wouldn't spend real money just to access a forum and troll them, or post hate.

 

Etc. we all need these people... if you cannot understand why, you will never really "get it", Now as far as your actual comment about "I"M QUITTING IF THIS DON'T GET FIXED"... this is actually a "valid" statement. A paying customer is showing displeasure and threatening to leave if there is no response to remedy the situation. Don't be fooled by this being a game and thus a statement like that being unreasonable...

 

I do agree that people should voice their displeasures in a more constructive way however.

 

People will just have to grit their teeth for a while, I do not see ground breaking fixes coming just yet. But I think eventually they will, otherwise like you pointed out, people will actually stop playing. BTW every area you mentioned about people making threads, or posts about, every area is valid, not just the ones saying they might quit. People just need to understand what the rest of the community are telling you and each of us, otherwise if the community is not united, it will fracture. I know this, because I am an Admin on Empire AT War communities, and know what I talk about.

 

Cheers.

[darthbator]

This post reminds me of people screaming about the killzone 2 aiming issue. People identified a legitimate issue with the analog control in that particular title. Developers recognized the issue as "something" in public and the games community almost immediately exploded. Half the community claiming the aiming in killzone was "heavy" to emulate armor and was a characteristic of the series (which is was, poor aiming control is a killzone hallmark) while the other half continued to say things like "well CoD and Halo feel much better" (which is undoubtedly true but also a pretty broad and stupid comment not really examining why). In the end a patch was pushed with a new aiming mode that supposedly fixed the issue but in reality made almost no difference. The reality is that the thing players where complaining about was the result of low level game systems that they couldn't just easily "fix" or even easily tweak without HUGE repercussions throughout the rest of the title. I am sure we're looking at a sort of similar issue (and IMO eventual resolution) here.

 

I think the over reaction here is pretty nuts. I can agree that character responsiveness in general does not feel as sharp as WoW. However I don't think it means that everything needs to be tossed out the window or that the animation priority system needs to be totally overhauled. It really needs to be balanced like just about any other issue of this nature. Certain abilities or ability chains that are clear issues need to be identified and then have their animations optimized.

 

This game isn't WoW and it's never going to feel just like WoW. The engine pushing the numbers all the way at the bottom is fundamentally much different and even if they decided to rework PVP animation priority to function like WoW it still wouldn't feel "right" and people would complain about something else.

 

From what I have seen abilities seem to "act" when you activate them. What seems to be off to me is that an ability damages an enemy as I activate it and not as the animation shows my character striking that enemy. This make get sort of confusing during multi hit abilities and in other cases can just feel odd. I press the strike button and I see the enemies health fall off before he ever gets struck with a weapon.

 

I think at the level where it counts (crunching damage and etc) the abilities are activating as you want them to. I just think that things like animations running long can throw off players own neurological queuing.

[Xcore]

i disagree here (always my opinion ofc)

 

when i buy something i buy it for what it IS and not for what i IMAGINED IT will be.

 

this line in games isnt' as clear for everyone and i understand that, not eveyone is mature to understand what he PAYS for.

 

You pay to play the game. end of story.

IF the game is broken for YOU (no matter how/why/where etc is broken) then you MUST stop paying it. BW/EA wont' SOLVE everything or WONT' have the same priorities of what is "gamebreaking" for everyone.

IF the game ISNT' what YOU Imagined you MUST stop paying it seriously i do not want to know other peoples imaginations

etc etc

 

as you see the I PAY YOU FIX IT in a game (service) isnt' so clear as of buying a Ferrari or a Toyota

 

You're complicating the simplicity of my statement... "every single subscription is needed and beneficial" whether you like it or not, you, me, Bioware benefit from "every single subscription"....

 

You can "never' say something as asinine as: "Go back to WoW", "We don't need/want you here", "Leave if you don't like it"..

 

These statements hurt YOU more than you know because you (the person stating these quotes) lack the foresight of your own statements due to being blinded by illogical passion/rage etc.

[mutharex]

Just saw a Q&A session with Reid on Reddit, between other things he says:

 

"Q: Ability Delay. Have you guys discussed this internally, and if so, is there an ETA for a fix on this issue?

 

Hey! It has been discussed internally, and we'll talk about it publicly soon. It's not a simple issue so we don't want to issue a quick, off-the-cuff response.

"

 

Edited December 29, 2011 by mutharex

[Xcore]

For now we can only try to "live with it". We already cried for BW, and probably they new this was going to happen sooner or later. My question is? Is a fluid gameplay, like the one wow gave to us, a secret recipe like Coca-Cola? If yes, BW must be concern!!!

 

May the force be with u BioWare, cause u will need it !

 

Yes, it absolutely is... without a shadow of a doubt, it is... well put.

[csslakai]

Just saw a Q&A session with Reid on Reddit, between other things he says:

 

"Q: Ability Delay. Have you guys discussed this internally, and if so, is there an ETA for a fix on this issue?

 

Hey! It has been discussed internally, and we'll talk about it publicly soon. It's not a simple issue so we don't want to issue a quick, off-the-cuff response.

"

 

Conclusion: Let's wait!

[Oneiros_IV]

Conclusion: Let's wait!

 

Responding on issue after 1st post release month is over will be financially correct

[Elog]

There is ALWAYS a 'miss-synch' buffer. It is literally impossible for the server to conclusively tell which of two key-presses happened first from two different machines.

 

You are missing the point. Either what moves/casts etc on your screen also with 100% accuracy reflects what is on the server - this is 'what you see is what you get' model. In this world your latency plus FPS is the delay between server and your screen. This is the most common model for all PvP games such as CS etc

 

What WoW did is that it allowed an action to start on your screen before the server even knows about it. It looks good but it means that 'what you see is not what you get'. Since this creates a delta in time stamps between your client, the server and someone elses client there is a need to maximum delta. That number is 400ms between your client and the server. This is the reason why two players in WoW can stun eaxh other at the same time with instants. As long as it is within the 400ms window the server allows it. In the CS model this is not possible with instants - one player will be first 100% of the time.

 

The first model is great for competetive PvP but introduces felt delays at low FPS/high latency/high server load. The second model is great for immersion. I like the second model for SWtoR.

[Xcore]

Its why I don't join groups. I play to my own standards not some one elses.

 

 

 

Yeah well there might be players like that, and yet again everyone plays at their own pace. There is NO competition.

 

 

 

Much of that is quite justified complaining. Especially when a level 50 is farming low level players. This is very much dishonorable, I really can't see what much XP they get from that, in fact Biowware should cap these levels so you can only attack people within your own level boundaries. Otherwise no rewards for you.

 

 

 

Well I would rather have some one tell me their opinion than not at all. Agreed..

 

 

 

Thats a waist of a subscription then, I am not sure there is any foundation for that claim either. I wouldn't spend real money just to access a forum and troll them, or post hate.

 

 

 

People will just have to grit their teeth for a while, I do not see ground breaking fixes coming just yet. But I think eventually they will, otherwise like you pointed out, people will actually stop playing. BTW every area you mentioned about people making threads, or posts about, every area is valid, not just the ones saying they might quit. People just need to understand what the rest of the community are telling you and each of us, otherwise if the community is not united, it will fracture. I know this, because I am an Admin on Empire AT War communities, and know what I talk about.

 

Cheers.

 

I don't know if you understand the context of my statement that you quoted, your reply to the discussion I had with the person I previously quoted makes no sense... please don't quote mine me like that again.

[csslakai]

Responding on issue after 1st post release month is over will be financially correct

 

Have to agree xD!

[RohenDar]

Well they must have changed something. I'm playing a smuggler right now and the problem people were describing with Charged Burst, is not there at all. In fact, I can easily use an instant right after the charge and what happens is, either one of the abilities does dmg without showing an animation.

 

Further more, I can do a Charged Burst, then move while it's doing the animation, and it will just do the dmg, cancel the animation and move.

Edited December 29, 2011 by RohenDar

[mutharex]

Have to agree xD!

 

I think responding when they have an answer is a good idea

[Xcore]

Well they must have changed something. I'm playing a smuggler right now and the problem people were describing with Charged Burst, is not there at all. In fact, I can easily use an instant right after the charge and what happens is, either one of the abilities does dmg without showing an animation.

 

Further more, I can do a Charged Burst, then move while it's doing the animation, and it will just do the dmg, cancel the animation and move.

 

No, get out... I cannot be polite to you. I apologize.

[mutharex]

Well they must have changed something. I'm playing a smuggler right now and the problem people were describing with Charged Burst, is not there at all. In fact, I can easily use an instant right after the charge and what happens is, either one of the abilities does dmg without showing an animation.

 

I think part of the problem is related to server load, it appears to be more spottable in WZ and other busy 'areas'. Maybe they adjusted something server side or you were just in a part of the server that was under less load, dunno... I don't really notice it, but I am in a different 'demographic' than most other people who are noticing it

[TheHauntingBard]

I think this is something a lot of posters seem to forget.

 

Character responsiveness is one of the main things that makes or breaks any game.

 

Plat formers/RTS/MMO's/Beat them ups/FPS etc , if this isn't done well the game will have issues.

The best games in history are known to have good character responsiveness.

 

OP points out that this is an issue in MMO's, games that are all about character responsiveness.

It allows them to fine tune better it allows better PVP and PVE and an over all better gaming experience.

 

 

Sadly I don't think Bioware can/will fix this issue, it seems like a fundamental mistake.

In other words the PVP/PVE will never be all that great which means they will lose a lot of costumers.

 

You can disagree all you want but in the end losing subs means less content.

Edited December 29, 2011 by TheHauntingBard

[Mothanos]

For some classes this is worse then others and in pvp you notice this realy realy fast.

I want SWTOR to succeed as i invested good money and time in it.

 

I play this game mostly for pvp and always liked to play healers in any mmo i have played.

Healers already have a bad time as it is and this is almost gamebreaking as i need to spam heals like no tomorow.

 

Between the knockbacks, interupts, stuns, i need to time all things right and i notice that the end of my healing animation delays me next cast, sometimes short and sometimes a little longer.

 

 

For (casual players) this might not be gamebreaking, but if you want to be compitive you need to have a 99% responsive UI.

 

I can add that the healing bars are bugged to as on the UI the players are at full health while in reality they are not.

+ add the strange delay in and you can see healing is a joke atm.

 

 

I played wow for a long time and got used to one of the best responsive UI's gcd/ animation in any mmo.

I realy hope this is going to be a HIGH priority for Bioware.

 

It might not be gamebreaking for many people, but like i said i want to get the max out of my gameplay and this is not the way i like to play my healer.

 

+1 for the OP

[csslakai]

I think responding when they have an answer is a good idea

 

I just wonder... why the F#$% they do a beta test?

[TheHauntingBard]

I just wonder... why the F#$% they do a beta test?

 

An issue on the beta forum was that a lot of constructive posts got drowned by fanboys.

You know the comments.

 

- It's beta dude don't whine

 

-Next build will fix it

 

- I like the game go back to WOW

 

- Launch will fix it

 

About every discussion got this response .

[csslakai]

An issue on the beta forum was that a lot of constructive posts got drowned by fanboys.

You know the comments.

 

- It's beta dude don't whine

 

-Next build will fix it

 

- I like the game go back to WOW

 

- Launch will fix it

 

About every discussion got this response .

 

The problem is people don't think that playing a beta phase, with less than a month for the official launch, will not change anything on the gameplay! =S Sad but true

[TheHauntingBard]

Depends how big it is.

But the current launch isn't much different than the beta from 4 months ago.

In fact the launch version feels more bugged.

[csslakai]

In fact the launch version feels more bugged.

 

Can't agree, but they should had more carefull on some aspects like the gameplay. Graphics and storylane are really cool but the most important thing is not that! That's why WoW remains so alive after 6 years with the same graphic quality.