Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

[Khoranth]

Yes I've done a warzone, quite a few in fact, though I am by no means a hardcore PvPer and could really care less about it. It's something that passes the time and gives easy XP when you need it.

 

Again, why dont you take the advice of someone who DOESN'T have the problem? Why is that so hard for you to do?

 

it is not advice because it is not an option.

 

What you are telling me to do is to sit there and get killed.

 

You want me to mouse over tiny debuff icons trying to read them one at a time to find out which is the stun debuff and how much time it has left on it?

 

It would take me far longer then any CC lasts to do that, considering how tiny all the debuff icons are.

 

Currently my only options are press the button more then once, to activate it immediately after CC ends, or get killed.

[fallenvirtues]

I didn't read your reply, but thank you for the bump good Sir.

 

No problem..I will help keep bumping...I want them to keep the current system in place but fix it to where everything is sync'd and working properly and everyone is happy...

 

The last thing I want is people to leave this game because something was glitchy...I want this game to succeed and everyone to be happy

 

I dont think making the combat system EXACTLY like WOW is the solution...I think the UI and response time is obviously flawed for a **** ton of you and I think it CAN be fixed

[Uldalas]

Right..no one is saying adjust cast times...Im suggesting to adjust animations so they finish when they should if you are having a problem with the animation till going after the attack finished

 

Keep all casting times the same, but adjust animations by speeding them or reducing the front end of the attack...The UI not responding is a completely different issue for those experiencing it...thats a bug issue in the UI

 

I think were talking past eachother.

 

Im all with you on the adjust animations.

 

Speeding them up to fit within the timeframe of the GCD (for the instant skills) would be perfect.

 

I am just lead to believe that BW would never speed up animations cause they would make them look faster than they were supposed to ot look weird which leads me to believing they would rather do a completely new animation to every skill lasting the correct amount of time.

 

Im just saying that it could be a problem in the FUTURE in case they want to change the casttime of abilities.

[hopefulhotaru]

100% agree with the OP on this. There have been so many other mmos that I've loved more than WoW in terms of story, feel etc. But I've been unable to really get into them because they have failed to match WoW in terms of responsiveness. The fluidity of movement and combat in WoW (especially in PvP) is just unmatched, and you take for granted how important a factor this really is in terms of enjoyment until you play other mmos.

[Feskitt]

This states that you ARE having the same problems but you're just working around it by waiting for the animation to finish. It's one thing to say that you are fine working around the problem; it's something else entirely to deny the problem exists.

 

Actually, I said in the previous thread that if it does exist, I've subconsciously worked around it several hundred-thousands moves ago back at lvl 6 or something.

 

 

Also, I don't actually wait for an animation to fully finish... you can 'load' the next move onto the ending of the previous. Unless you overheat or mess up or something, there's really never any reason for a Merc to not be literally constantly attacking or doing a move of some sort. Probably the same for the other classes I assume.

 

 

[arcanewon]

NONSENSE I sum up your argument like this..

 

Jaguars new car is not as good as BMW's new car but it's miles better than the one BMW released 7 years ago so you should buy it.

 

U mad?

 

Disagree because apples and oranges.

[Larlar]

Problem is, as already mentioned, that not everybody is able to recognize the flaw.

It seems some are more sensitive than others.

 

This is true but I think that its because, at present, almost everyone is doing what can only be classed as 'easy' stuff. Questing and levelling requires no real ingenuinety on the part of the player. Its just easy and there's no need to react quickly for any reason. When you do encounter the issue, it doesnt really matter that much - so I would guess that a lot of people are seeing it but not realising it, or just going with it because, well, it doesnt matter when you are aoeing groups of mobs down all day.

 

The issue will become very acute when people start doing pvp and higher level pve. Then we will see tears cascading all over the forums as quick reactions are needed and this problem will make gameplay very problematic.

 

But the problem is, in my view, that the silent majority won't know why they are not liking the game. They will feel the issues we are discussing and just decide the game 'isn't that good'. They won't read this thread, and they won't think too much about it. They will feel the clunkiness and just decide wow is better and cancel their sub. I believe this happened with all the other recent mmos. I hope I'm wrong, but I also hope Bioware doesn't test this idea out by letting this issue go unresolved over the next few weeks. If they get it right, this will be far better than wow. If they do not, it will not compete.

[JonnyBigBoss]

This is still an issue, primarily in PvP.

 

BioWare - why are you not communicating with your playerbase? Are you trying to follow the footsteps of Square Enix and Final Fantasy XIV? This game will implode quickly if you don't show a level of communication to the people who defend your game.

[PerpetualGamer]

This is EZ to fix... make the Casting time, as long as the animation... no more instant abilities, or make NO animation bigger than 1.5 seconds >.> Surely that would solve it?

[fallenvirtues]

I think were talking past eachother.

 

Im all with you on the adjust animations.

 

Speeding them up to fit within the timeframe of the GCD (for the instant skills) would be perfect.

 

I am just lead to believe that BW would never speed up animations cause they would make them look faster than they were supposed to ot look weird which leads me to believing they would rather do a completely new animation to every skill lasting the correct amount of time.

 

Im just saying that it could be a problem in the FUTURE in case they want to change the casttime of abilities.

 

I understand...but for them to speed up the animation to fit perfectly isnt a huge speed up...1 second (give or take .5) is all thats needed...It wouldnt change the visuals all that much in all honestly and would be a whole lot less work for them...

 

Now the glitchy crap happening with the UI I think is the REAL problem for yall...If you didnt experience the .5 delay before the attack starts, well thats already making it easier to end as the GCD does...

 

Animations and/or the combat system itself doesnt need a overhaul...Tweaking and perfecting how the UI responds is whats needed

Edited December 28, 2011 by fallenvirtues

[arcanewon]

I wonder - if all they did was speed up animations, for instance on the slow animation from Maul, if this would help to correct the issue...?

[Aleeha]

OP, I totally agree with everything you've said. I to also hope that BioWare addresses this issue. I'd love to see this game be around for 3 or 4 years and doing well.

[SirGlacius]

I don’t usually bump thread but this is a big issue for me.

I play a Sith Sorcerer and there are some mayor issues with animation and timer bars. When my 90 days of playtime are up and this is not fixed I’m out (might even quit before that out of pure frustration).

The original post compares activation time system to wow, but the issue is still valid and wow is not the only MMO that has better mechanics.

After my activation bar is finished it still takes up to a second to activate depending on the skill.

The mount is a perfect example. When I’m done summoning my mount the animation for getting on starts now if I move to quickly I see my mound appear and disappear again and I’m running without it.

Heals have a similar problem, the activation bar is full but if I move the moment the bar is full I don’t cast the heal.

I don’t mind reacting to animations but why in the world is there a activation bar if it doesn’t display casting more accurate than the animation. On top of that the animations are sluggish and overlap so I can’t really react to animations the way they are now.

 

Then there is cutting animations. A good example of this is “Force Lightning” this animation doesn’t cut the previous animation. In combination with “Lightning Barrage” which allows Force Lighting to be cast in 1.5 seconds it’s possible that the animation is completely skipped if the animation of the previous skill is a long one. This wouldn’t be a problem if the channeling bar was accurate but it’s not!

 

Finally complete failure to activate. Since I’m explaning by example I’ll use “Force Storm”. If I use force storm I can reactivate it before it finishes, it will cut my current force storm and active a new one. However when I cast a new force storm the moment the old one finishes nothing happens, in fact I need to wait at least 0.5 seconds before I can activate it again when it finishes… this is a horrible mechanical bug that messes up chain casting and this is just 1 example, there are a lot more problems with chain casting and to make matters worse every time this happens I need to wait another 0.5 seconds before I can cast my next spell.

 

In conclusion I agree with the original post that this game doesn’t flow right. It has too many hiccups and it’s really spoiling the fun. Personally I get frustrated when I press a button and nothing happens and that normally means I delete the game but since I have been beta testing SWTOR for a while I’ll just see the first month as more beta testing and be forgiving but my patience is gone run out sooner or later.

[Feskitt]

There have already been quotes in this thread by BH Mercs experiencing this issue...so...awesome for you?

 

Well, the point I was trying to make was, with a particular few posts that were flat-out ridiculous re: certain BH attacks, the reason they're having 'problems' wasn't that the game was broken, rather it's that they're refusing to play it "efficiently."

 

Mashing buttons or not is wholly irrelevant to a game's gameplay or at least it should be. Telling your customers not to press a keybind twice, or else it'll break your combat system, when they really need that ability to go off at that exact time in the heat of whatever they're doing is just fail no matter which way you try and cut it.

 

 

Folks can button mash all they want. Won't work, but they can keep on doing it.

 

[MaceTowani]

I put the parts I feel most prudent in bold and italics.

 

So basically what you're saying is, "I don't have your problem, but here is my way of avoiding the problem we both acknowledge exists since we are both in agreement that waiting for animations are the reason why the combat isn't as fluid as the GCD/Cast bars allow you to believe".

 

Lol?

 

More like, "I don't have your problem ANYMORE because I did these things."

 

I don't think you understand, certain hardmode encounters in this game and in PvP require clutch healing or fast interrupts. Why does my UI give me visual acknowledgement that it's ok to use an ability if I actually can't because I'm waiting for another animation to finish?

 

Panic healing/attacking won't get you anywhere. You have to anticipate, use common sense, plan and use strategy.

 

Alright, you've fully proven yourself to be a BW apologist, someone who will make excuses and reasons for every flaw that this game has.

 

It isn't about patience in high level PvE or competitive PvP - it's about us needing our abilities to work when we press them, the animations to finish with the cast timers - and to remove the bugs that are in the combat system itself.

 

They DO work when you press them. That is CLEARLY not an issue.

 

The animations can be interrupted or prolonged if your character is under stress of attack.

 

Not many bugs in the combat system that I've noticed.

 

Doing attacks AFTER the animations (vs AFTER the cast timer) adds up to literal seconds lost, when there is a palpable .5 second invisible animation timer on many abilities. Those seconds adds up quickly to extra heals, extra utility, extra dps that could and very well SHOULD be going out in an encounter but isn't because of this faulty design.

 

This is why you anticipate. Panicking gets you NOWHERE. If someone is even at HALF health, heal. If the bar is even down just a BIT, heal. Because in terms of the cast time and animation along with any interruptions or prolonging that may come, their health would AT LEAST be halved, maybe more. It helped me, it should help you.

 

Button mashing is an apologist excuse as to this problem, even IF it is root of this problem, their design mechanic is STILL a huge fail - you cannot ask customers to politely press ONCE in intensive combat or else it will BREAK your combat system.

 

Can you understand that? Yes? No?

 

Sorry, but you have to learn to adapt. Just take the advice of someone who DOESN'T have your problem.

 

Can YOU understand that? Yes? No? Probably not.

[kongzi]

Actually:

 

I remembered i have read something about combat in this game, posted from a developer so i made a quick search and found this:

 

http://www.swtor.com/news/news-article/20110916

 

if you don't whant to read all the article i will just share a statement made by Mark How the Principal Lead Animator at BioWare : " A key aspect we learned early in development was that players do not enjoy having character control taken away from them because of an action or animation. "

 

So Bioware you are still developing the promised combat style? because the players are not enjoying it right now

 

I think they developed it alright. Judging from that article, their main focus seemed to be that combat animations, especially those in lightsaber combat, looked "realistic". From what you can read in this thread though, it seems they didn't put enough resources into researching and developing a smooth combat experience regarding the controls.

 

Visuals got prioritized higher than responsiveness.

[Eroes]

Tell that to them. They seem to think they can dictate.

 

We are customers, we can dictate to a large degree. We dictate with our wallets and participation.

 

For me this issue is simple. If the cast time for something like AMBUSH says it takes 2.5 second, then from start to finish it should take 2.5 second. If AMBUSH has to wait another .5 second due to the animation, then the cast time should say it takes 3 seconds.

 

Very simple.

[Boning]

I have to agree with op. WoW made me so used to being smooth that i have huge (and I mean huge) issues with playing swtor - pvp is practically unplayable for me and gives me a headache.

[Khoranth]

I don’t usually bump thread but this is a big issue for me.

I play a Sith Sorcerer and there are some mayor issues with animation and timer bars. When my 90 days of playtime are up and this is not fixed I’m out (might even quit before that out of pure frustration).

The original post compares activation time system to wow, but the issue is still valid and wow is not the only MMO that has better mechanics.

After my activation bar is finished it still takes up to a second to activate depending on the skill.

The mount is a perfect example. When I’m done summoning my mount the animation for getting on starts now if I move to quickly I see my mound appear and disappear again and I’m running without it.

Heals have a similar problem, the activation bar is full but if I move the moment the bar is full I don’t cast the heal.

I don’t mind reacting to animations but why in the world is there a activation bar if it doesn’t display casting more accurate than the animation. On top of that the animations are sluggish and overlap so I can’t really react to animations the way they are now.

 

Then there is cutting animations. A good example of this is “Force Lightning” this animation doesn’t cut the previous animation. In combination with “Lightning Barrage” which allows Force Lighting to be cast in 1.5 seconds it’s possible that the animation is completely skipped if the animation of the previous skill is a long one. This wouldn’t be a problem if the channeling bar was accurate but it’s not!

 

Finally complete failure to activate. Since I’m explaning by example I’ll use “Force Storm”. If I use force storm I can reactivate it before it finishes, it will cut my current force storm and active a new one. However when I cast a new force storm the moment the old one finishes nothing happens, in fact I need to wait at least 0.5 seconds before I can activate it again when it finishes… this is a horrible mechanical bug that messes up chain casting and this is just 1 example, there are a lot more problems with chain casting and to make matters worse every time this happens I need to wait another 0.5 seconds before I can cast my next spell.

 

In conclusion I agree with the original post that this game doesn’t flow right. It has too many hiccups and it’s really spoiling the fun. Personally I get frustrated when I press a button and nothing happens and that normally means I delete the game but since I have been beta testing SWTOR for a while I’ll just see the first month as more beta testing and be forgiving but my patience is gone run out sooner or later.

 

Yeah, what a joke the comparisons to WoW and claiming only wow has good responsive combat, and it is ok for swtor to have bad unresponsive combat, so it won't be like WoW.

 

Ancient EQ had responsive combat a decade ago. when i pressed a button on my EQ druid, it happened, if i mashed a button, it did not lag me out and waste 5 seconds of my time.

 

Ancient EQ had responsive combat, that wasn't trashed if you accidently press any button more then once,during a character animation, a decade ago.

 

So no excuses for SWTOR to have the exact same unresponsive combat as warhammer

[myrmexaw]

This is BW's way of solving it by going with a different mechanic altogether. Instead of complaining on the forums for hours on end, just take the advice of someone who DOESN'T have your problem.

 

Don't button mash.

 

Do your attack ONLY AFTER the animation to ensure a smooth transition.

 

Know that your attacks CAN get interrupted if you cast them while getting pummeled.

 

then why did they add a global cooldown ? if they'd remove GCD i would agree with you but right now a 1.5 second ability will ALWAYS take 1.5 second even if you reduce it to 1.25 second with alacrity ..... Why would they put speed enhancement stats in the game if it had no input on the way the animation is done ???

[Paganini]

More like, "I don't have your problem ANYMORE because I did these things."

 

 

 

Panic healing/attacking won't get you anywhere. You have to anticipate, use common sense, plan and use strategy.

 

 

 

They DO work when you press them. That is CLEARLY not an issue.

 

The animations can be interrupted or prolonged if your character is under stress of attack.

 

Not many bugs in the combat system that I've noticed.

 

 

 

This is why you anticipate. Panicking gets you NOWHERE. If someone is even at HALF health, heal. If the bar is even down just a BIT, heal. Because in terms of the cast time and animation along with any interruptions or prolonging that may come, their health would AT LEAST be halved, maybe more. It helped me, it should help you.

 

 

 

Sorry, but you have to learn to adapt. Just take the advice of someone who DOESN'T have your problem.

 

Can YOU understand that? Yes? No? Probably not.

 

 

Did you not look at the videos in the OP? Or are you just in denial?

[sevenex]

Well, you nailed it. This is the best explanation of what would make the game amazing. Very well thought out post that takes what everyone wants and sums it up nicely.

[Feskitt]

That is one of the most ridiculous straw man false choices I've ever seen.

 

We want crisp and responsive combat, there's no reason why that can't be done in an MMO with animations.

 

Yeah? Then I guess it's too bad there were people proposing removing animations in the last version of this thread. (The same people appalled that when you clicked a button, there wasn't an immediate damage registered.)

 

 

But you're right, it's ridiculous.

 

 

[Xzenorath]

I don't know what all the fuss is about. I'm a high level player and I can't say the combat feels incredibly horrid. Considering the fact that the game just came out, it's in a better state than any other MMO I've ever played or tested, and that's quite a long list, believe me.

 

Sure, some bugs happen where I'll use Full auto after using my reload and nothing will happen, but the numbers still appear when they should and the damage is there.

 

I'm not saying you guys aren't right, but I don't think it's horrible nor do I think this should take priority over many, many features and bugs that are seriously horrid at the moment.

[AkAseo]

We are all wrong and the minority on here are right.

 

BW intended the game to have a sluggish, unresponsive combat system where animations, cast bars and abilities don't mesh together. To compensate for these failings we must l2play better by ignoring the castbar, GCD and other visual references and concentrating only on the swishing of our ligthsabers which completely solves every problem apart from when your abilities fail to fire, in which case thats your fault for button bashing.

 

Seriously stop whingeing and accept we are all wrong.