Ability Delay -- Character Responsiveness (This will make or break SW:TOR)

[Elog]

- So, I hit my PvP Trinket (w/e) within about .6-8 following stun. This is not supposed to trigger GCD

- I spam cover -- nothing happens noticeably for about .4-6 seconds (possibly more)

- Meanwhile Assassin/BH beating on me -- While I'm waiting for my dude to kneel? I'm not sure...

- I am already spamming Knockback ability (sorry pretty intense, I can't watch him kneel and then hit it nice and slow).

- The Cover Ability had a 1.5 GCD trigger which felt like 2.3-2.6 seconds....

- Knockback triggers on my bars! hurrah! -- however, no-one appears to be knocked back NOR did the animation happen! BUT MY CD IS ON IT AS IF IT DID!!?

- About .6-1 second later knockback happens! and the animation is delayed by what feels about .5

 

Did we get any clarity on the find in the thread whether all abilities had a 0.5sec CD or not? Assume for a second that BW has coded it that way and your sequence makes sense (I said sense - I do not like the way it is done).

 

Trinket -> 0.5sec CD plus latency -> Cover -> 0.5sec CD plus latency -> Knock-back -> UI triggers first since it is not synched to server -> latency plus FPS -> Knock-back truly triggerz

 

So to extend the hypothesis (I will start tests tomorrow):

 

1) UI is 100% client conrolled and hence instant

2) Animations are synched with server and hence effected by latency and FPS

3) The 500ms internal CD that an earlier poster found in the code seems to apply to all abilities

[MacPJ]

For those that have said they've stopped their subscription and are still watching this thread, quick question. Is there a survey section that lets you explain why you've quit?

 

Because if Bioware starts to see a real economic impact due to this issue, it will further motivate change. Brings to mind the situation in Fight Club where the major automotive manufactures have a limit to paying out lawsuits for faulty cars before they decide to recall the entire product line.

[Putok]

You're absolutely right, Targeting is a very important issue as well... it is very "unresponsive". However, it does not have anything (I don't believe) to do with the Character/Avatar Responsiveness and I believe this is far more important currently.

 

Things like Targeting and Camera come second imo.

 

Those are definitely my big three issues with the game at the moment, with combat coming first. UI might actually be a higher priority than targeting, but that's a topic for another thread :-p

 

Thanks again for doing a great job keeping up with this!

[Amortes]

This issue is under active investigation.

 

The complication is that there are actually a number of different issues with very different causes and potential resolutions lumped together in this thread.

 

All we can say for now is 'we are actively working on the topic of character responsiveness'.

 

this statement is simply no statement at all. saying that you are actively working on sth is worthless, i have never seen anyone working passively on something.

but well, things will change, or they won't, who cares, this seems like the general attitude for bioware

[darthdoll]

this statement is simply no statement at all. saying that you are actively working on sth is worthless, i have never seen anyone working passively on something.

but well, things will change, or they won't, who cares, this seems like the general attitude for bioware

 

Get your head outta of your butt.

 

Its people like YOU who complain and QQ about eta's hence the reason why they say nothing so people dont QQ more.

[Elog]

this statement is simply no statement at all. saying that you are actively working on sth is worthless, i have never seen anyone working passively on something.

but well, things will change, or they won't, who cares, this seems like the general attitude for bioware

 

Come on. That post is actually excellent. THE person that can influence this responded in the thread and stated it is a priority. What more - apart from a patch - can you ask for?

[Arkimor]

this statement is simply no statement at all. saying that you are actively working on sth is worthless, i have never seen anyone working passively on something.

but well, things will change, or they won't, who cares, this seems like the general attitude for bioware

 

This thread took what, 2 days to hit 100 pages? We were happy to see anything at all. Yeah, I don't have any extra hope for them fixing it, but it's still nice to get a response.

 

I'm in the same un-sub boat as everyone else with this. I pay to have fun and combat this clunky isn't fun.

[Hisashii]

For those that have said they've stopped their subscription and are still watching this thread, quick question. Is there a survey section that lets you explain why you've quit?

 

Because if Bioware starts to see a real economic impact due to this issue, it will further motivate change. Brings to mind the situation in Fight Club where the major automotive manufactures have a limit to paying out lawsuits for faulty cars before they decide to recall the entire product line.

 

Yes, it is precisely why I did it. No $ loss, who cares right?

[Putok]

YOu still didnt answer the actual question....you focused on my comment about instant attacks...

 

I agree with up close interupts should go instantly...Im talkin more on the saber throw or grenade throw type instant attacks that should do what they do upon impact..Even though this is a game, it doesnt mean it cant have SOME realism to it...

 

But now this is where I dont have a problem...During Boarding party last night, everytime I hit my interupt, it worked perfectly...I dont get why it doesnt for you (in a PvE sceneraio..Not PvP)

 

I do agree, things like shock wave, kicks and so forth should instantly happen and let the animation finish out...I can compromise to

 

For abilities with travel times, I think EVERYONE would be OK with the damage not being dealt until it arrives at its target. Saber throw, for example, should deal damage exactly when the lightsaber hits the target. If the target is very close, that'd be nearly instant. If it's further away, that'd be more time.

 

As long as you execute the ability as soon as the button is pressed, travel times on abilities does not impart a feeling of disconnection from the character.

[Contumelious]

This thread took what, 2 days to hit 100 pages? We were happy to see anything at all. Yeah, I don't have any extra hope for them fixing it, but it's still nice to get a response.

 

I'm in the same un-sub boat as everyone else with this. I pay to have fun and combat this clunky isn't fun.

 

Lol, you realise this is a remake of another thread - and that other thread took only 2 days to reach 240 plus replies?

 

Yeah...

 

Anyway, I'm very happy with Georgs response, and am currently crossing my fingers:)

Edited December 30, 2011 by Contumelious

[hirath]

this statement is simply no statement at all. saying that you are actively working on sth is worthless, i have never seen anyone working passively on something.

but well, things will change, or they won't, who cares, this seems like the general attitude for bioware

 

You're over doing it, hoss. I was a supporter of these threads and even cancelled my subscription, but they have responded and acknowledged the issue. That is enough and we ought to let them address the problems now without further complaint.

[Bob-ombaFett]

For those that have said they've stopped their subscription and are still watching this thread, quick question. Is there a survey section that lets you explain why you've quit?

 

Because if Bioware starts to see a real economic impact due to this issue, it will further motivate change. Brings to mind the situation in Fight Club where the major automotive manufactures have a limit to paying out lawsuits for faulty cars before they decide to recall the entire product line.

 

When I was forced to provide my credit card info to get my free 30-day gameplay (don't get me started on that topic.......), I quickly put it in and once it registered and I was able to play, I immediately removed my credit card info on my account.

 

To answer your question, while removing my card information, they did provide a question box with a drop down window, asking why I was stopping my payments, as well as an empty window to put in my own personal comments.

 

I think it would be proactive if everyone who decides to stop subbing to put into the comments box the main reason why they are leaving is due to the responsiveness issue.

[iskxvx]

This problem has existed for a LONG time. Game has made it's first impression on a lot of people and it's not a good one.

[shakesbeerlol]

Undeniable Blizzard has a bunch of genius who make their games

1. run on almost all PCs and yet nice graphic

2. very few coding/script to make responsiveness very smooth

 

These two factors will make the game or break the game, I fully support SWTOR and hope it improve in all aspects. But Bioware has yet a lot to learn to match up with WOW. Consider WOW came out in 2003, after 8years, so-called AAA MMOs still can't acheive what WOW has acheived in terms of technology.

 

As a long time MMO player, I hope developers can really put their time and money into developing a system/platform that is more advanced than WOW, after that build your game. I felt that SWTOR put majority of the investment into story and voice acting (which is great acheivement), but as a player, what I care the most is my gameplay experience.

 

I'm really glad this post raised so many concerns and really hope Bioware will do something about it

[Dhusk]

I'm SO glad you made this thread, OP. I absolutely love ToR but I also love Rift and a month or so ago I made a thread on the Rift forums trying to explain THIS EXACT ISSUE within the context of Rift as it is plagued by it as well. My post over there is speaking primarily of PvP (where it is most noticeable) but the issue surely exists across the board:

 

http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-general-discussions/pvp-warfronts/276611-rift-pvp-woes-feedback-long.html

 

I linked people in that post over here to take a read of your incredible post as well hoping it increases visibility and general interest as I am in complete agreement: responsiveness, fluidity and general "synchronization" is of the utmost importance is make-or-break for a fun gaming experience.

 

Thanks again for a great thread and please accept this tiny bump!

Edited December 30, 2011 by Dhusk

[JediMasterShake]

This issue is under active investigation.

 

The complication is that there are actually a number of different issues with very different causes and potential resolutions lumped together in this thread.

 

All we can say for now is 'we are actively working on the topic of character responsiveness'.

 

 

Thanks very much, Georg. Though I will say it's taken quite long enough to see some yellow text.

 

To those clamoring for more of a response, this is all we can realistically ask for at this juncture. They have a deluge of simple, "normal" bugs, which in a strange way are more important to resolve immediately than this issue. As long as they are committed to working on responsiveness and give concrete plans for the future within the next week or so, they are doing it right.

[ShadowMasterRP]

Thanks very much, Georg. Though I will say it's taken quite long enough to see some yellow text.

 

To those clamoring for more of a response, this is all we can realistically ask for at this juncture. They have a deluge of simple, "normal" bugs, which in a strange way are more important to resolve immediately than this issue. As long as they are committed to working on responsiveness and give concrete plans for the future within the next week or so, they are doing it right.

 

You didn't read that right.

 

He didn't say there are other bugs that are more important. He said that this issue in question is actually comprised of several different bugs/issues.

 

I imagine that means that the animation twitching (cast Smash -> twitch -> begin fully animation 0.5 secs later), the UI not being in sync with animations, and the ability performance delay (instant abilities not being instant when cast via a button) are different bugs that are all part of this one grand "unresponsiveness" issue.

Edited December 30, 2011 by ShadowMasterRP

[JediMasterShake]

You didn't read that right.

 

He didn't say there are other bugs that are more important. He said that this issue in question is actually comprised of several different bugs/issues.

 

I imagine that means that the animation twitching (cast Smash -> twitch -> begin fully animation 0.5 secs later), the UI not being in sync with animations, and the ability performance delay (instant abilities not being instant when cast via a button) are different bugs that are all part of this one grand "unresponsiveness" issue.

 

I read it correctly. People were complaining he didn't give a more comprehensive response, and my post was in response to that sentiment. There are several different issues at hand in this thread, as you mention, and they indeed have all been convoluted into a feeling of "unresponsiveness".

 

I didn't mean to imply there are other more important bugs - this is easily the most important issue to the future success of TOR. But there are more pressing issues in the very short term. This is most certainly not a quick fix, and they are going to want to smooth out all of the edges of the game before they tackle this responsiveness issue in its entirety. If they don't attend to the slew of MMO launch bugs, the game will literally fall apart.

 

While this is indisputably the most important issue to the game's long term health, it's not at the top of the devs list of THINGS TO DO TODAY.

[asbalana]

This issue is under active investigation.

 

The complication is that there are actually a number of different issues with very different causes and potential resolutions lumped together in this thread.

 

All we can say for now is 'we are actively working on the topic of character responsiveness'.

 

I much hope that this can be fixed and quickly. Great game that I would like to play for a long time.

[ShaggyShow]

First of all, i did not take the time to read every post. I have no PVP or endgame content experience yet in this game, so what i am sayin may not all apply to this game. Though i highly doubt that. I do on the other hand have loads of MMO/Adventure/RPG experience as tank/dps but by far the most as HPS. Anyway here is my opinion and experience with the issue.

To the people who actually read my post: This is exactly the issue i had with healing, which also made me stop playin my SI healer at lvl 36 because to many times at a pull this laglike responsiveness made it impossible to keep a tank alive in a flashpoint at certain pulls.

 

In the end tanks need their responsiveness to grab aggro in time. To make sure DPS and HPS do not take useless damage. Which results in HPS not having to waste their mana/force. Which prevents your HPS going "out of mana" 50% into a fight.

 

DPS need their responsiveness to interrupt in time, so that again no useless damage falls on the party/raid. Which at the end of the line prevents the "out of mana" 50% into a fight.

 

HPS need their responsiveness to keep up with the burst damage that the party/raid members take. So that nobody (in my experience usually the tank) at the pull of a group of mobs (Damage tends to be high untill atleast 1 mob is dead) dies. Ontop of that if you have 0.5sec delay per heal that you cast, you are going to be forced to use the more expensive (mana/force costs) spells because you fall behind with heals vs incomming damage. Which ends up with healers not beeing able to manage their mana/force pool very good. So then you end up with a "out of mana" scream again at some point.

 

Every class their actions has a impact on the rest of the group. If their actions cannot be preformed in a timing that was inteded, a other player will suffer. When this happends because of a game mechanic its all the more frustrating.

 

Ontop of all this, if Bioware was totally clueless about this problem up untill the beta or launch then there is a chance that numbers balance (incomming damage vs outgoing heals vs outgoing damage vs healthpools vs manapools) is actually not balanced at all. And that can make the content extremely hard or even impossible to clear.

 

To Bioware: This issue should be your number 1 priority unless the gamecode makes certain hardware melt down. Also money or manpower should not be made an issue to fix this.

 

The waiting time to login, chat bugs, graphics bugs, loot bugs, quest line bugs, title bugs or maintanence times or any of the other complaints that i have seen on the forums will be forgotten and forgiven once you fixed them down the road (it took blizzard like 2 years to fix the loot bug? Nobody seems to remember... Just to name something).

 

But if this responsiveness issue is not fixed or atleast reduced, there will not be a "down the road" where u can fix these bugs simply because people refuse to play this game. To a point where the game becomes a excellent RPG with a very nice co-op mode. But that will not be enough to keep people subscribed for longer then 2 or three months at most. Simply because real competative play (Guild PVE progress, player vs player) is not possible. But competative play is for many one of the biggest if not the biggest reason to play any game online.

 

Fix this and: players will stick around, new players keep commin. The company can keep patching and adding stuff or improving it while making tons of money. And in 5 years people start to leave for a new MMO just to end up comparing it to SWTOR and tellin that other developer how much better SWTOR was and never had a single bug or problem.

 

I call that a win win situation for developer publisher and gamer. Go Bioware! Keep giving me the good stuff like you did in the past.

[DogMeat]

This is a must!

Combat is what the game is all about...so......

[Xcore]

I'm SO glad you made this thread, OP. I absolutely love ToR but I also love Rift and a month or so ago I made a thread on the Rift forums trying to explain THIS EXACT ISSUE within the context of Rift as it is plagued by it as well. My post over there is speaking primarily of PvP (where it is most noticeable) but the issue surely exists across the board:

 

http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-general-discussions/pvp-warfronts/276611-rift-pvp-woes-feedback-long.html

 

I linked people in that post over here to take a read of your incredible post as well hoping it increases visibility and general interest as I am in complete agreement: responsiveness, fluidity and general "synchronization" is of the utmost importance is make-or-break for a fun gaming experience.

 

Thanks again for a great thread and please accept this tiny bump!

 

Thank You

 

I really enjoyed reading your post on Rift regarding this very "hard-to-define" uncomfortable feeling that we all experience in all these MMOs. Of course it is most prevalent in PvP (but also High End PvE) as this is most "reaction time" demanding and thus is limited mostly by responsiveness.

 

I really love the fact that there are more voices raising this issue and awareness in different games. The most amazing thing would be GW2 getting it "exactly right", because then we could finally see what would really happen when someone strikes it just like WoW in this field.... I dare say, I trust no-one more than ArenaNet to accomplish this (that is a different subject)

 

To your post again, I hope others are inspired by it and carry forth this "message" and understanding of "Gameplay, Complete Control and Character Responsiveness >> ALL OTHER ANYTHING". Then perhaps after Titan launches we'll have that generation of MMOs to really look forward to.

 

I'd like to do your post justice by commenting on specifics that I enjoyed:

 

In short, the PvP in this game seems unsynchronized, laggy and very random. Part of this is due to the large quantity of possible, viable builds available for each of the callings which leads to far less of an ability to "prepare" for what abilities you might be facing in a particular PvP encounter.

 

This I found interesting because it touches upon the unique aspect and challenge that Rift faces in this regard. I'm not too familiar with Rift but the amount of possible builds and thus spells and combinations seen in PvP would be staggering. This may also as you point out have to do with the disjointed feeling in PvP.

 

Regardless of what can be said of the Arena system and class balance, it is undeniable that WoW's PvP is among the most fluid and crisp PvP available from a functional standpoint if nothing else.

 

Here you kind of really "identify" the "Golden Key" to WoWs success, why we all go back to it and never break free to another game. Although you focus on PvP, its relevant just as much to every other aspect of simply moving your character, casting a spell at a lvl2 boar or an intense 2800+ Arena 3s RMP Mirror.

 

Take a WoW Rogue for example. When I land Cheap Shot on a target, they immediately freeze in their tracks. The animation of Cheap Shot is perfectly in sync with the "click" sound effect it makes and, even still, is perfectly in sync with the stun, swirl effect animating above the affected target's head. After two seconds, the Rogue lands a Kidney Shot that also lands cleanly but the target trinkets this stun and immediately starts moving away from you. Everything seems instantaneous, synchronized and fluid. It allows for PvP battles to be almost a "chess match" wherein you are reacting in real time with your opponent, attempting to think two to three steps ahead to gain an advantage.

 

After reading this, I realized that somehow you have the nerve of calling my OP remarkable or great but in reality... this above paragraph is the most amazing, accurate description of this issue that I could never put into words so eloquently myself. Bioware, Georg, read the above highlighted green paragraph please... this is it, don't read it... feel it.

 

I'm being serious here, when I read the above paragraph I don't just think of what you mean, I "see" it. That is it... when you say "but the target trinkets this stun and immediately..." you f****** mean "IMMEDIATELY" with Effect/Sound/Animation all "perfectly" in sync. This perfection is what amazes me about Blizzard... this standard of quality. I am sorry if this sounds Blizz praising but I am simply amazed by this accomplishment and I think anyone who understands this issue, MMO Gaming, Game Development would agree.

 

I land Paralyzing Strike on a target and they still scoot forward perhaps a half meter or so. The sound effect the ability makes does not seem in line with the effect itself and it makes it very difficult to time anything properly. The target gets out of Paralyzing Strike so I attempt to put Malicious Strike up but it takes two to three key presses before the ability is able to be used despite, on my screen, me being practically on top of my opponent. Once Malicious Strike finally lands, it only lasts a second or two given the nature of Rift's diminishing returns system. I chase after the target trying to pump damage into them but I'm unable to hit them consistently and it throws off the timing of every ability I'd typically use at opportune times.

 

I have "no" idea what any of the abilities mean or do but the above quoted green text is infuriating. I feel your frustration as if it just happened to me (perhaps because it did in Aldaraan Warzone). Again, Georg, the above speaks of the problem so clearly it hurts.

 

The above is the best I can do to explain the problem and this unsynchronized, random nature of Rift PvP is what keeps me out of Warfronts indefinitely and keeps me going back to WoW just to get my PvP fix. Eventually, I'm going to have to make a choice. WoW's PvE is good but I prefer Rift's. However, would WoW's PvE be good enough to draw me away in light of the PvP being vastly more fun? While I can't say now, I wanted to explain this to you as I love this game and want it to succeed indefinitely.

 

I quoted this because I would just like to point out that you have a far better way with words, so much so that I wish you would've written the OP for us here in SW:TOR. Perhaps it would've had greater effect... I applaud you on this OP on the Rift forums and I would like to link it and add it to my OP here.

 

 

Ty for sharing and contributing!

 

 

P.S.: I noticed that you listed your computer specs as well, I guess in Rift the blind still carry the same arguments.

[ltprudii]

No idea if someone stated this. But the delay comes from the fact that combat is choreographed and needs time to calculate movements. Thus a small delay.

[Xcore]

To Bioware: This issue should be your number 1 priority unless the gamecode makes certain hardware melt down. Also money or manpower should not be made an issue to fix this.

 

The waiting time to login, chat bugs, graphics bugs, loot bugs, quest line bugs, title bugs or maintanence times or any of the other complaints that i have seen on the forums will be forgotten and forgiven once you fixed them down the road (it took blizzard like 2 years to fix the loot bug? Nobody seems to remember... Just to name something).

 

But if this responsiveness issue is not fixed or atleast reduced, there will not be a "down the road" where u can fix these bugs simply because people refuse to play this game. To a point where the game becomes a excellent RPG with a very nice co-op mode. But that will not be enough to keep people subscribed for longer then 2 or three months at most. Simply because real competative play (Guild PVE progress, player vs player) is not possible. But competative play is for many one of the biggest if not the biggest reason to play any game online.

 

Fix this and: players will stick around, new players keep commin. The company can keep patching and adding stuff or improving it while making tons of money. And in 5 years people start to leave for a new MMO just to end up comparing it to SWTOR and tellin that other developer how much better SWTOR was and never had a single bug or problem.

 

I call that a win win situation for developer publisher and gamer. Go Bioware! Keep giving me the good stuff like you did in the past.

 

Quoted for absolute emphasis... give this man a medal, beer... whatever he desires.

[Xcore]

No idea if someone stated this. But the delay comes from the fact that combat is choreographed and needs time to calculate movements. Thus a small delay.

 

No, its not "real" choreographed combat. Its all pre-determined set amount of movements etc. I would be very surprised if that were the case, though animations in general play a large role.

 

Please do correct me if I am mistaken