Ben, I'd like to see a stream today

[Wayshuba]

Not to mention the Uprisings themselves are a joke. More waves upon waves of mooks as we've come to expect from KotFE onwards, followed by a boss with mechanics recycled from already existing content! These things feel like almost zero effort was put into them, and they take about as much effort to complete.

 

Or they feel like EA has already handed down a close date and just want to milk the subs for as long as they can until that date....

[Transcendent]

You mean the new quick action heroics? Come on...it's lame 4- player content. Ops were 8-16 man and to this day I do them every chance I get...I've yet to do more than 2 Uprisings...I've had enough 4-player content tbh...nobody was asking for more.

 

Oh those things you have to be a subscriber to play? Part of GC or something? Yeah, I've got my main to level 70, finished the story and then logged out.

 

5.0 has to be the first time an expansion has come out that I just don't feel like touching. Other more fun games to play without insane un-fun grinds just to gear up. As you know I've been playing that other game more, it's not only more challenging while remaining fun, it's a damn sight easier to "catch up" with the gear if behind, I'm not even playing it for the gear rewards currently.

 

Guess SW:TOR is going to get relegated in a semi-permanent manner until they come up with something better, or start communicating properly and listening to their community, like good developers do. It's a shame, there is so much potential here in this game, and so much goodwill has been squandered creating things nobody has been asking for all these years. Guess I'll never understand the Austin studio mentality, it's like a self-destruct gone mad and keeps resetting itself.

[Eshvara]

Great post!

[AngFour]

 

5.0 has to be the first time an expansion has come out that I just don't feel like touching. Other more fun games to play without insane un-fun grinds just to gear up. As you know I've been playing that other game more, it's not only more challenging while remaining fun, it's a damn sight easier to "catch up" with the gear if behind, I'm not even playing it for the gear rewards currently.

 

Guess SW:TOR is going to get relegated in a semi-permanent manner until they come up with something better, or start communicating properly and listening to their community, like good developers do. It's a shame, there is so much potential here in this game, and so much goodwill has been squandered creating things nobody has been asking for all these years. Guess I'll never understand the Austin studio mentality, it's like a self-destruct gone mad and keeps resetting itself.

 

This is me.

 

Look, I'm one of the ~filthy casuals~ who plays this game for its story. But the thing is, other than for 1 year because I had a baby, I've been subscribed nonstop. I like the story. Well, the vanilla stories at least. When KotFE came out last year, I was really happy because I thought it would be a GOOD story. It was merely "okay." Even worse, it was at the expense of other areas of the game that, while I don't personally do them, I've been around the MMO block for over 15 years and I know that there needs to be a balance. But, well, what could I do, you know? It's not the casual player's fault that BW got tunnel vision. Anyway...

 

And then there was the Alliance Grind. Which I did. Maxed out 2 characters, and the rest are at least at Rank 10. I tried to be patient. I spent my millions of credits on pretty cosmetic items to make each one of my characters look individual (despite KotFE pretty much taking away their individuality). I spent my monthly CC grants on unlocking those items. I was patient. I started crafting heavily. I added augment slots to legacy gear and filled them, not that I needed them but because I had nothing better to do.

 

Then there was DvL. I did it because there was nothing better to do. I reached Eternal level. Don't know why I bothered because I need another companion like my Wrath needed the 4 pink/purple dye packs he got from Cantina crates. But I did it because I enjoy the stories, so my time wasn't completely wasted.

 

And now we have KotET. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoyed the story. It was SO MUCH BETTER than KotFE (IMO, of course). But not only was it once again at the expense of the other areas of the game, it was at the expense of our companions coming back (you know, the ones most people actually LIKED). And now we're told that they won't be concentrating on the story anymore for at least this year, despite the fact that they told us that they would bring back all of our companions ("If not in KotFE, then the next expansion" was what they said). For me, them not returning the companions is like them saying, "We promise not to go 18 months without making another Op again)." But I digress.

 

I did the KotET story. Twice. I might do it a third time just to make sure I've seen all the different options. But it wasn't SO GOOD that I want to run it 20+ times. So what's after that? What is there for me to do? ANOTHER year of Heroics? The occasional flashpoint/Uprising? For what? Why? What's the point? To get GXP for cosmetic gear? I OWN MOST OF THE GOOD LOOKING STUFF! Which, for the record, is actually a pretty small amount because whoever designs their armor is either blind, doesn't understand fashion, or both. Do Galactic Command for BiS gear? FOR WHAT? I don't do Ops. I CAN'T do ops because I have a toddler. Something might come up (like her falling) that will cause me to need to log out immediately, which is unfair to anybody I'd be in a group with.

 

KotET was ONLY story. There wasn't even new Daily areas for me to do things. No new areas to explore. So what? Are we expected to grind on Heroics (et al) for another year? ANOTHER YEAR? For what? I can only scan Ancient Voss writings so many times before the very thought of doing it again makes me sick. There is no point in my doing Galactic Command or grinding Heroics EXCEPT to play the lottery. In other words, there is no point.

 

So now I've reached my limit. I've been patient. I've done what was expected of me for far longer than was necessary. They are offering nothing new to make it worth my while anymore. There is no light at the end of this dull, monotonous tunnel. I can only kill Hunter so many times. I can only kick Skavak square in the Flanderdoodles so many times. I can only deal with the Twi'leks on Tython so many times. I can only rehash the old stuff so many times. I'd rather do NEW stuff. I'd rather do NEW Heroics. NEW dailies.

 

I'm tired of BW relying on past glories. I want them to learn how to BALANCE everything. SoR? That was a perfect blend of EVERYTHING (the story is debatable, but as a whole it's a good expansion). New dailies. New Story. New OPs. New Flashpoints (that we could even solo). Hell, they even gave us a small Class Quest! Why can't it be like that? WHY are they focusing on only one area of the game? All that does is pit the players against each other!

 

Ugh. I don't know where I was going with this rant. My sub runs out on the 21st and for the first time in 3 years I think I'm going to let it lapse. I just can't do it anymore, because there is nothing substantial to do.

Edited December 6, 2016 by AngFour

[gabigool]

This is me.

 

Look, I'm one of the ~filthy casuals~ who plays this game for its story.

 

....

 

KotET was ONLY story. There wasn't even new Daily areas for me to do things. No new areas to explore. So what? Are we expected to grind on Heroics (et al) for another year? ANOTHER YEAR? For what? I can only scan Ancient Voss writings so many times before the very thought of doing it again makes me sick. There is no point in my doing Galactic Command or grinding Heroics EXCEPT to play the lottery. In other words, there is no point.

 

So now I've reached my limit. I've been patient. I've done what was expected of me for far longer than was necessary. They are offering nothing new to make it worth my while anymore. There is no light at the end of this dull, monotonous tunnel. I can only kill Hunter so many times. I can only kick Skavak square in the Flanderdoodles so many times. I can only deal with the Twi'leks on Tython so many times. I can only rehash the old stuff so many times. I'd rather do NEW stuff. I'd rather do NEW Heroics. NEW dailies.

 

I'm tired of BW relying on past glories. I want them to learn how to BALANCE everything. SoR? That was a perfect blend of EVERYTHING (the story is debatable, but as a whole it's a good expansion). New dailies. New Story. New OPs. New Flashpoints (that we could even solo). Hell, they even gave us a small Class Quest! Why can't it be like that? WHY are they focusing on only one area of the game? All that does is pit the players against each other!

 

Well put.

[djungelvraaal]

I think there has been a lot of very good posts in this thread, the OP was more well written and thought through than most( to me at least, I can't speak for anyone but myself)

 

It seems there will be a livestream thursday, at 2pm PST if I understood it correctly.

If they'll address any of the many, and quite big in my opinion issues, is a completely different matter.

[Theshadowbehind]

Seems they just announced a live stream this thursday on twitter, quite surprised about this development.

[Wayshuba]

This is why I feel the communication has to come directly from Ben to the community.

 

Personally, from the two paragraphs I saw, he's wrong on "What it boils down to....". That's not the issue. The issue is what the current implementation of CXP gain is doing to in-game activity. It's funneling it - much moreso than pre-Saturday. Dropping this bomb on a Saturday morning was pretty shady. And it hasn't been addressed.

 

It's completely the antithesis of "play how you want to play". Because the gains are so monumentally slow people are migrating towards the highest perceived CXP/minute. And it is having a terrible effect on gameplay. People on both sides of this are not enjoying the game. Right now it is far worse than it was before Saturday.

 

I think that's a pretty massive problem and I believe it needs to be acknowledged. Anyone who thinks this is about getting my shinies fast enough is missing the point by a mile.

 

I'm not running from the fact that I do not believe this system belongs in this game. I think it's insanity with the content cadence we get. Delusional.

 

However it's here. Fine.

 

But this iteration of CXP gain-tables is legitimately broken and I do not see any point of view from which it is acceptable to not expect immediate answers WRT fixing it. (Actually fixing it - not making it massively worse a la the last fix).

 

You are correct on a lot of things in all your posts. Well done. However, I think where you might be incorrect is where people are gravitating too. They are gravitating to the unsubscribe button.

 

When Ben gives his Livestream on the 8th, if it sounds anything like what he said to MassivelyOP you can kiss a good portion of the subscriber base goodbye. Because that interview displayed they haven't the foggiest clue about just how much they have p***** off their customer base or why they did.

 

Very few people want this CxP system with end game gear at all. It would be fine if it was like the DvL system, with a few decorations and armor SKINS (not stated gear) thrown in and it was legacy wide. End game gear, needs to be EXACTLY WHAT IS WAS IN 4.0 JUST UPDATED FOR THE LEVEL CAP.

 

But hey, that's what good business is about isn't it? P****** off your customer base. Is that Business 101 in how to be successful in business - to make your customers flee from paying you.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Wayshuba

[Wayshuba]

Seems they just announced a live stream this thursday on twitter, quite surprised about this development.

 

Why are you surprised? The unsubscribe count is probably going through the roof and they are suddenly realizing that maybe, just maybe, when they were told this system absolutely stinks and NO ONE wanted it, that making a good portion of your paying customers angry enough to stop paying you was not a good thing.

 

The sad part is that even if they admit it, they still inflicted this in complete arrogance on their customer base. If they fully own up to it, they might save this in time. If they say something completely stupid like they did in the MassivelyOP article they can depend on one thing - a continued massive drop in subscriptions. (Have fun explaining that to the execs at EA on your regular reporting calls - and hope none of them take the time to read the forums or the MMO newsites before that call).

 

They need to say, we messed up and messed up big time. We are sorry and we are going to quickly go back to the 4.0 system, updated with the gear from the current expansion. Please stick with us, we want to keep you as customers.

 

But we know they won't. It is going to be a BS feed on adjusting the system, yada, yada. And 30 days from now, they are going to wonder why they still didn't save any of those cancelled subscriptions.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Wayshuba

[Sportiva]

Why are you surprised? The unsubscribe count is probably going through the roof and they are suddenly realizing that maybe, just maybe, when they were told this system absolutely stinks and NO ONE wanted it, that making a good portion of your paying customers angry enough to stop paying you was not a good thing.

 

The sad part is that even if they admit it, they still inflicted this in complete arrogance on their customer base. If they fully own up to it, they might save this in time. If they say something completely stupid like they did in the MassivelyOP article they can depend on one thing - a continued massive drop in subscriptions. (Have fun explaining that to the execs at EA on your regular reporting calls - and hope none of them take the time to read the forums or the MMO newsites before that call).

 

They need to say, we messed up and messed up big time. We are sorry and we are going to quickly go back to the 4.0 system, updated with the gear from the current expansion. Please stick with us, we want to keep you as customers.

 

But we know they won't. It is going to be a BS feed on adjusting the system, yada, yada. And 30 days from now, they are going to wonder why they still didn't save any of those cancelled subscriptions.

 

You took the words right out of my mouth ... even though I'm happy they are going to have an impromptu live feed. I worry that they are going to try to spin the launch & give the player a bunch of BS.

[Exly]

Just coming on to explain why they are doing thing the way they are is not going to accomplish anything. What they need to do a announce how they will change things to make them better.

 

We let them know when they first announced RNG boxes and the Galactic Command system that we thought it was a horrible idea.

 

We told them that they needed to make the system legacy wide so that we could play our alts and continue to progress thought he ranks without feeling like we were being punished for having the audacity to play more that one character.

 

We told them that we need new operations and warzones to make the game more interesting for us to play.

 

It is long past time that they answered us and told us when they will fix things, how they will fix things, and when we can expect new content.

 

Just coming on to pat themselves on the back and tell us that they have models the prove to them that the system that they gave us is really good, and we are just to stupid too understand the brilliance of their decisions is not going to cut it.

 

We need real answers, not explanations or excuses, or we will give you more super good stuff soon™ "trust us" kind of answers..

[Ambramotte]

Well said OP.

 

For those who haven't figured it out, I think can fairly easily explain why they're doing this:

1) to extract $$ because sub #'s are falling

2) to provide a longer period where content is "relevant"

 

As far as #1, the idea was to get folks to spend time leveling alts (12xp, DvL, etc.) , if they don't have them already (e.g., prog raiders), then hamper the ability to gear up multiple toons and provide a P2W grind relief. Well played BWA, but still a rather ****** thing to do.

 

As far as #2 goes, I'm not sure that's worked out all that well since there's at least one group that I'm aware of that downed NiM Brontes in the first week. I applaud the prog raiders who are continuing; my group reached 24/26 NiM and I can't be bothered to do this level of grind. At this point, I've cancelled my sub (6 month increments) and I don't know that even new operations would get me to resub. This may have worked had they done new raids at the same time, but without new raids I, and a I suspect a lot of other folks, have ZFTG.

 

IMHO, they hit the community with a pretty big stick here as part of a money grab but they have not provided a meaningful carrot to keep us engaged. I don't have the motivation or time to indulge and BWA hasn't convinced me it's worth it.

[TUXs]

This is me.

 

Look, I'm one of the ~filthy casuals~ who plays this game for its story. But the thing is, other than for 1 year because I had a baby, I've been subscribed nonstop. I like the story. Well, the vanilla stories at least. When KotFE came out last year, I was really happy because I thought it would be a GOOD story. It was merely "okay." Even worse, it was at the expense of other areas of the game that, while I don't personally do them, I've been around the MMO block for over 15 years and I know that there needs to be a balance. But, well, what could I do, you know? It's not the casual player's fault that BW got tunnel vision. Anyway...

 

And then there was the Alliance Grind. Which I did. Maxed out 2 characters, and the rest are at least at Rank 10. I tried to be patient. I spent my millions of credits on pretty cosmetic items to make each one of my characters look individual (despite KotFE pretty much taking away their individuality). I spent my monthly CC grants on unlocking those items. I was patient. I started crafting heavily. I added augment slots to legacy gear and filled them, not that I needed them but because I had nothing better to do.

 

Then there was DvL. I did it because there was nothing better to do. I reached Eternal level. Don't know why I bothered because I need another companion like my Wrath needed the 4 pink/purple dye packs he got from Cantina crates. But I did it because I enjoy the stories, so my time wasn't completely wasted.

 

And now we have KotET. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoyed the story. It was SO MUCH BETTER than KotFE (IMO, of course). But not only was it once again at the expense of the other areas of the game, it was at the expense of our companions coming back (you know, the ones most people actually LIKED). And now we're told that they won't be concentrating on the story anymore for at least this year, despite the fact that they told us that they would bring back all of our companions ("If not in KotFE, then the next expansion" was what they said). For me, them not returning the companions is like them saying, "We promise not to go 18 months without making another Op again)." But I digress.

 

I did the KotET story. Twice. I might do it a third time just to make sure I've seen all the different options. But it wasn't SO GOOD that I want to run it 20+ times. So what's after that? What is there for me to do? ANOTHER year of Heroics? The occasional flashpoint/Uprising? For what? Why? What's the point? To get GXP for cosmetic gear? I OWN MOST OF THE GOOD LOOKING STUFF! Which, for the record, is actually a pretty small amount because whoever designs their armor is either blind, doesn't understand fashion, or both. Do Galactic Command for BiS gear? FOR WHAT? I don't do Ops. I CAN'T do ops because I have a toddler. Something might come up (like her falling) that will cause me to need to log out immediately, which is unfair to anybody I'd be in a group with.

 

KotET was ONLY story. There wasn't even new Daily areas for me to do things. No new areas to explore. So what? Are we expected to grind on Heroics (et al) for another year? ANOTHER YEAR? For what? I can only scan Ancient Voss writings so many times before the very thought of doing it again makes me sick. There is no point in my doing Galactic Command or grinding Heroics EXCEPT to play the lottery. In other words, there is no point.

 

So now I've reached my limit. I've been patient. I've done what was expected of me for far longer than was necessary. They are offering nothing new to make it worth my while anymore. There is no light at the end of this dull, monotonous tunnel. I can only kill Hunter so many times. I can only kick Skavak square in the Flanderdoodles so many times. I can only deal with the Twi'leks on Tython so many times. I can only rehash the old stuff so many times. I'd rather do NEW stuff. I'd rather do NEW Heroics. NEW dailies.

 

I'm tired of BW relying on past glories. I want them to learn how to BALANCE everything. SoR? That was a perfect blend of EVERYTHING (the story is debatable, but as a whole it's a good expansion). New dailies. New Story. New OPs. New Flashpoints (that we could even solo). Hell, they even gave us a small Class Quest! Why can't it be like that? WHY are they focusing on only one area of the game? All that does is pit the players against each other!

 

Ugh. I don't know where I was going with this rant. My sub runs out on the 21st and for the first time in 3 years I think I'm going to let it lapse. I just can't do it anymore, because there is nothing substantial to do.

Wow...I don't know where you were meaning to go either, but damn...that was one powerful post. I'm glad you got sidetracked because that needs to be read.

[kodrac]

I can understand the intent of the Galactic Command is to get people to experience other aspects of the game, but the CXP, RNG and subsequent nerf to golds shows they don't understand MMO players. MMOers have always (and I mean always) found the most efficient, quickest ways to do things - be that leveling or gearing or anything really. If grinding is the fastest way to end game they'll grind. If questing is the fastest they'll quest. If the best way to get gear is to group up and farm a dungeon that's what they'll do - no matter what steps the devs put in place to try and funnel them into other activities. And my fear is the studio execs will attribute the unhappiness and unsubs to the wrong things (because they don't understand the playerbase). Short version for the studio (if they do read this stuff): GC is fine, CXP and especially RNG is not.

[TUXs]

I can understand the intent of the Galactic Command is to get people to experience other aspects of the game, but the CXP, RNG and subsequent nerf to golds shows they don't understand MMO players.

What was DvL for then? Wasn't that for the exact same reason? To get players to do parts of the game during the content drought that they didn't usually do? I think you're mistaken. I think CXP/GC is specifically to hide the lack of anything new...again.

[TUXs]

Why are you surprised? The unsubscribe count is probably going through the roof and they are suddenly realizing that maybe, just maybe, when they were told this system absolutely stinks and NO ONE wanted it, that making a good portion of your paying customers angry enough to stop paying you was not a good thing.

If you're expecting a reversal on anything, you'll be sorely disappointed. They won't address it...at most, they'll string you along by saying "we're watching CXP gains closely and we'll begin working on fine tuning the system after the holidays", hoping players somehow forget that it exists...but they sure as hell aren't even attempting to save this game in any way at all.

[kodrac]

What was DvL for then? Wasn't that for the exact same reason? To get players to do parts of the game during the content drought that they didn't usually do? I think you're mistaken. I think CXP/GC is specifically to hide the lack of anything new...again.

 

Well yeah I think the CXP grind is to hide that for sure. Gotta keep you on that treadmill. But I think the GC is the same purpose of the DvL, to get people to try different things just in a different format to get you on that treadmill. DvL was just the summer-time stop-gap just like 12x was.

Edited December 7, 2016 by kodrac

[Alloou]

Well yeah I think the CXP grind is to hide that for sure. Gotta keep you on that treadmill. But I think the GC is the same purpose of the DvL, to get people to try different things just in a different format to get you on that treadmill. DvL was just the summer-time stop-gap just like 12x was.

 

I believe the same. Galactic Command and RNG was just implement to cause an uproar between the community. Then as perfect developers who hear their community, they will hold a lovely little stream, they will promise Legacy wide GC, patch up elites to 5 xp and many more to quell that and everyone is happy.Happy running the same content which will soon age by 1 more year.

[Soljin]

I believe the same. Galactic Command and RNG was just implement to cause an uproar between the community. Then as perfect developers who hear their community, they will hold a lovely little stream, they will promise Legacy wide GC, patch up elites to 5 xp and many more to quell that and everyone is happy.Happy running the same content which will soon age by 1 more year.

 

At this point I think it's fairly clear this team is resource starved....the only other explanation is complete and utter incompetence....

 

It is unrealistic to think they are willfully trying to force the game into failure....

 

 

The Galactic Command Interface is actually really nice and a great idea...its basically a game wide group finder, Awesome! The DvL aspect is pretty cool but seriously needs a higher curve for the losing side to avoid one side winning 95% of the time. Which I thought they had stated was already in place but on Harbinger it's Lightside winning 95% of the day as far as when I am on....

 

Remove Gear pieces from the Crates......Make GC crates just schematics, Appearance items and reputation gifts and so on.....Add gear tokens to be allocated at specific ranks.....You get a token every crate and then you go to the vendor and purchase the piece you want at a vendor.....fixed. Not difficult.

 

Problem is they want to hide the mechanics of advancement so they don't have to explain when they adjust the speed of gear acquisition.

 

BioWare has made it clear with the design of Galactic Command RnG crates they do not favor transparency. I would compare also that they use bolster systems but they never seem to release how they work....I would think by now they would realize people will figure it out regardless and if they were transparent all the speculation leading up to people figuring it out would go away.....which is better for Bioware....

Edited December 7, 2016 by Soljin

[DarthDymond]

At this point I think it's fairly clear this team is resource starved....the only other explanation is complete and utter incompetence....

 

It is unrealistic to think they are willfully trying to force the game into failure....

Agreed, although the "they're deliberately trying to drive off players and kill the game" tinfoil hat theory is one that people love to throw around.

 

I think part of it is that the team is also part of the ME: Andromeda project, so their time is probably being split even If the studio's overall funding isn't being reduced.

[Soljin]

Agreed, although the "they're deliberately trying to drive off players and kill the game" tinfoil hat theory is one that people love to throw around.

 

I think part of it is that the team is also part of the ME: Andromeda project, so their time is probably being split even If the studio's overall funding isn't being reduced.

 

I know this is bad form to bring up but.....I'm going to anyway.

 

When SOE decided to build the NGE and eventually CU they stated the reason was to bring SWG inline with their other titles like EQ2. In doing so their Dev teams could work across several games with more ease.......

 

SO! I guess what I'm getting at is, cross game Dev teams in the past has worked out great for Star Wars MMOs.........

 

Even worse is that the ME: Franchise has slowly lost its appeal as each game was released because once again they "Streamlined" game systems...It's what I like to call making the systems more lame and linear.

 

It all in one way or another comes back to one theory.....Bioware/EA want more profit for less investment.....and they are not trying to find the balance point. They are tilting to an extreme to see how far they can go thinking the game will recover if they step over the line.......I'm not sure that it will.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Soljin

[kodrac]

Don't say tinfoil, mods hate that. You can say ****, ****, damn, piss, **** again but don't dare say tinfoil. That's naughty.

[Alloou]

I know this is bad form to bring up but.....I'm going to anyway.

 

When SOE decided to build the NGE and eventually CU they stated the reason was to bring SWG inline with their other titles like EQ2. In doing so their Dev teams could work across several games with more ease.......

 

SO! I guess what I'm getting at is, cross game Dev teams in the past has worked out great for Star Wars MMOs.........

 

Emm...considering previous history that is not exactly a good thing...

[Tsetso]

Don't say tinfoil, mods hate that. You can say ****, ****, damn, piss, **** again but don't dare say tinfoil. That's naughty.

 

Now that sentence reminded me of the scene in South Park where they put anti swearing chip on Cartman

[Soljin]

Emm...considering previous history that is not exactly a good thing...

 

Yeah I was being sarcastic...It tanked an entire MMO almost overnight and is known as one of the biggest mistakes in MMO history