Senya needs to go

[Eshvara]

Great, a necrophile. That's the last thing this thread needs.

 

They're not dead. You clearly don't know what a necrophile is. educate yourself.

Edited November 6, 2016 by Eshvara

[Shadowsentinel]

They're not dead. You clearly don't know what a necrophile is. educate yourself.

 

They will be.

[Eshvara]

They will be.

 

Yeah they just might, or might not. Nobody dies in my story, I'll save Arcann's poor soul:rak_03: He needs my love!

Edited November 6, 2016 by Eshvara

[Shadowsentinel]

Yeah they just might:rak_03: or might not.

After stuff he did? People were killed for far less.

[Eshvara]

After stuff he did? People were killed for far less.

 

Who cares, this is a game not real life. I don't feel sad for the tons of NPC's he killed.

Feel free to hate him for that though. none of my business.

[Costello]

I believe that Senya, Arcann, Scorpio etc have to die for the good of the story. I'm a little less clear on Vaylin cause she may have been brain washed by her dad and those crazy people in the trailer. This is simply because times change and audience expect more from the experience, there was a point when people realized James Bond was never going to die that the 'death traps' became more comical and ultimately laughable which is fairly bad if you invented the death trap. The same goes with this should those that betray you or commit war crimes through out the story get it all forgotten and forgiven and turns out it was all a bit of a misunderstanding and they were never such a bad guy or didn't mean to betray you but hit the hyperspace button when they meant to hit the return to base button. Oh those kids, we will have a good laugh about that when we have the Valkorians round for dinner this weekend.

 

Now maybe Senya is getting a bad wrap, maybe some of the other traitors are getting a bad wrap. Possibly true but that comes about because the writing has forced them on the player, forced them into this position and then we are all to act surprised when they did what they did. Its one of the things I love about the fallout games and Witcher 3 is particularly good for it, you can call people out if you feel its justified, you get to be smart and if someone insults you are is clearly going to betray you, you get to kill them first. Should there have been some choices in Kotfe and the player could have avoided being duped this would be such an issue. Further to have the option to kill twice and have it thwarted by the same person leaves the question whats the point. What Senya did may be in keeping with a mother (not in keeping with her character up to that point) maybe the case, but since she made the previous 16 chapters and best part of a year seem like one failure after another for the alliance makes it some what more annoying and unforgivable.

[Leklor]

You know, not wanting to kill Arcann/Senya doesn't mean we want to forgive unconditionally, set them free with a few million credits in cash, a ship and a signed letter from the Outlander with a big lipstick mark on it.

 

I personally think that Arcann needs to atone for his crimes. But I also don't think murdering him is a solution. It won't bring back those he killed, it won't rebuild the planets he had destroyed, it won't erase the five years the Outlander spent in carbonite.

The thing is, if he lives, and is either imprisoned or made to work with the Alliance against Vaylin, there is the ever so slight chance that he might make up for a tenth of what he has done. Even less than that. If he's dead, I feel like it won't fix anything.

 

As for Senya, unless she fails to redeem Arcann and supports any bad thing he'd do after that, then she's pretty much justified in my book. If she can make him better, turn him to good, then she deserves a chance to come back.

[Rolodome]

I never saw how Arcann had to be brought to justice. What justice? He didn't actually break any laws, to be brought to justice.

 

He continued a war, his father already started. He then won the war, with others not loving that he won.

 

Now, I'm not saying he was a great ruler or shouldn't be dethroned, but I'm missing the criminal aspect to him.

 

if anything, we're the criminals right now and it only changes if we win.

He killed his own brother in an enraged attempt to kill his father.

 

And then later orchestrated the murder of his father and scapegoated someone else.

 

He bombed planets (civilians included) just to make a point about his authority.

 

We can say, "Poor Arcann that his father is one of the top biggest pieces of **** in the galaxy," but two wrongs don't make a right. Arcann is quite the piece of work.

 

Oh and the funny thing is, it might be mildly redeeming if Arcann killed his father because he wanted to help the galaxy. Instead, it was just a petulant child with daddy issues killing his father because he wouldn't love him.

 

Talk about being screwy in the head.

 

That said, we are basically playing terrorists, depending on the kind of choices we make in KOTFE. If you stick to LS 100%, then you're more of a hunted outcast who's just trying to take down Arcann himself, to free the galaxy of Zakuul's tyranny. If you go full DS, you're an evil mother****er who will kill anyone in your way, civilians included, and you're no better than Arcann.

 

I will certainly agree that as a full DS character, you'd have no business saying Arcann should be brought to justice, unless you're gonna say that you should be too.

[Teriaon]

You know, not wanting to kill Arcann/Senya doesn't mean we want to forgive unconditionally, set them free with a few million credits in cash, a ship and a signed letter from the Outlander with a big lipstick mark on it.

 

I personally think that Arcann needs to atone for his crimes. But I also don't think murdering him is a solution. It won't bring back those he killed, it won't rebuild the planets he had destroyed, it won't erase the five years the Outlander spent in carbonite.

The thing is, if he lives, and is either imprisoned or made to work with the Alliance against Vaylin, there is the ever so slight chance that he might make up for a tenth of what he has done. Even less than that. If he's dead, I feel like it won't fix anything.

 

As for Senya, unless she fails to redeem Arcann and supports any bad thing he'd do after that, then she's pretty much justified in my book. If she can make him better, turn him to good, then she deserves a chance to come back.

 

if he lives and is set to work aginst his sister, there is a much larger chance that he will betray us and go right back to his own self the moment he is without supervison, you would have to be constantly watching him, and lets be honest the outlander has a really really bad track record for spotting betrayals, besides so you let him work, compleatly spitting on the memory of all the people he killed, what then when the fight is over?

 

besides we have already seen that the writers only work in extreems, so if there is going to be a choice, it is going to be either kill him or compleatly forgive him

[Leklor]

we have already seen that the writers only work in extreems, so if there is going to be a choice, it is going to be either kill him or compleatly forgive him

 

Exactly. And what was the last thing we saw Arcann do? Oppose Vaylin to save his mother. That makes me think he's going to be good if you don't try to murder him as soon as we see him.

[Celise]

He killed his own brother in an enraged attempt to kill his father.

 

And then later orchestrated the murder of his father and scapegoated someone else.

 

He bombed planets (civilians included) just to make a point about his authority.

 

We can say, "Poor Arcann that his father is one of the top biggest pieces of **** in the galaxy," but two wrongs don't make a right. Arcann is quite the piece of work.

 

Oh and the funny thing is, it might be mildly redeeming if Arcann killed his father because he wanted to help the galaxy. Instead, it was just a petulant child with daddy issues killing his father because he wouldn't love him.

 

Talk about being screwy in the head.

 

That said, we are basically playing terrorists, depending on the kind of choices we make in KOTFE. If you stick to LS 100%, then you're more of a hunted outcast who's just trying to take down Arcann himself, to free the galaxy of Zakuul's tyranny. If you go full DS, you're an evil mother****er who will kill anyone in your way, civilians included, and you're no better than Arcann.

 

I will certainly agree that as a full DS character, you'd have no business saying Arcann should be brought to justice, unless you're gonna say that you should be too.

 

make a list

 

Illegally joined with Thexan on the quest to destroy their enemies strongholds.

- Mass Murder.

- Pillaging and Looting.

- Destruction of property.

- Willful disregard of authority.

These are just a few counts against him.

 

On his return to the eternal throne with Gifts for Valkorion.

- Attempted assassination of the Emperor.

- Treason by attacking his father, an action counter to everything the Eternal Empire is.

- Murder of a Prince.

 

During the time the Outlander had to made a call with Valkorion

- Assassination of the Emperor.

>or

- A Willing accomplice to the murder of the Emperor.

- Betrayal of the Eternal empire.

- Illegally seizing control of the Eternal Empire.

- Ordering the deaths of millions of unsuspecting innocent people on a number of worlds.

- Accomplice to the murder of a number of Zakuulan guards by allowing Vaylin to do as she pleases and not punishing her for it.

- Willful destruction and careless destruction of property, by allowing his enemy to destroy so much without wondering how much it will cost in the long run.

- Decadence of the empire.

- Failure to protect his subjects from his enemy.

The list goes on..

[Costello]

Like others I think if Arcann is offered 'redemption' it will be absolute, he will be given a seat on your war council, he will wonder the base freely and armed. I hope I am wrong but I don't think the writing team have the skill to do a Silence of the Lambs Hannibal Lecter twist with him. The same goes with Senya, the betrayal is just a funny story we will put in our Christmas letter.

 

Hell I imprisoned the fat man Baras, I figured the information in his head was more valuable than having him dead and forgave Quinn cause he had followed orders and his betrayal had been directed solely against me so I had the right to forgive or force choke him (plus at the time I needed a healer). But at this point a pardon for Arcann which sees any outcome other than locked in a cell where you visit him for insight on occasion likely to do so much harm to the ToR story.

 

Taken when wookipedia do a write up and take lightside redemption as the canon account (I know this is not canon) and they list all the things Arcann has done, and then it goes Arcann's mummy saved him and gave him a special big boy hug. Due to this (and some soul searching) Arcann's personality completely changed, he embraced the light, was given a full Pardon and redeemed, he is now beloved of the entire galaxy and all the bad that he did turned out to be not that bad and no one felt bad about the things he had done. After all it was all because his daddy had been mean to him and the moral of this story if your daddy is mean to you but you say your sorry murdering your own twin brother is completely fine! No harm done.

[Rolodome]

make a list

 

Illegally joined with Thexan on the quest to destroy their enemies strongholds.

- Mass Murder.

- Pillaging and Looting.

- Destruction of property.

- Willful disregard of authority.

These are just a few counts against him.

 

On his return to the eternal throne with Gifts for Valkorion.

- Attempted assassination of the Emperor.

- Treason by attacking his father, an action counter to everything the Eternal Empire is.

- Murder of a Prince.

 

During the time the Outlander had to made a call with Valkorion

- Assassination of the Emperor.

>or

- A Willing accomplice to the murder of the Emperor.

- Betrayal of the Eternal empire.

- Illegally seizing control of the Eternal Empire.

- Ordering the deaths of millions of unsuspecting innocent people on a number of worlds.

- Accomplice to the murder of a number of Zakuulan guards by allowing Vaylin to do as she pleases and not punishing her for it.

- Willful destruction and careless destruction of property, by allowing his enemy to destroy so much without wondering how much it will cost in the long run.

- Decadence of the empire.

- Failure to protect his subjects from his enemy.

The list goes on..

Fair point.

 

Like others I think if Arcann is offered 'redemption' it will be absolute, he will be given a seat on your war council, he will wonder the base freely and armed. I hope I am wrong but I don't think the writing team have the skill to do a Silence of the Lambs Hannibal Lecter twist with him. The same goes with Senya, the betrayal is just a funny story we will put in our Christmas letter.

 

Hell I imprisoned the fat man Baras, I figured the information in his head was more valuable than having him dead and forgave Quinn cause he had followed orders and his betrayal had been directed solely against me so I had the right to forgive or force choke him (plus at the time I needed a healer). But at this point a pardon for Arcann which sees any outcome other than locked in a cell where you visit him for insight on occasion likely to do so much harm to the ToR story.

 

Taken when wookipedia do a write up and take lightside redemption as the canon account (I know this is not canon) and they list all the things Arcann has done, and then it goes Arcann's mummy saved him and gave him a special big boy hug. Due to this (and some soul searching) Arcann's personality completely changed, he embraced the light, was given a full Pardon and redeemed, he is now beloved of the entire galaxy and all the bad that he did turned out to be not that bad and no one felt bad about the things he had done. After all it was all because his daddy had been mean to him and the moral of this story if your daddy is mean to you but you say your sorry murdering your own twin brother is completely fine! No harm done.

I more or less agree with you, but to play devil's advocate, it's been clear from the start that KOTFE was a story written primarily with the JK in mind. And dark characters being redeemed 100% is nothing new in the land of SWTOR Jedi Knight. The primary exception to the rule, so far, is Valk/Vit himself because if he was redeemable, it would deflate the entire story arc and people would be calling this Carebears of the Eternal Throne.

 

Virtually everyone else is arguably fair game. The LS can apparently redeem anything it touches, as long as it's not the main antagonist and you utterly beat the character to the point where they're broken on the ground, one step away from a killing blow.

[casirabit]

Why is it is so hard for people to accept that some may want to redeem Arcann. Yes he killed people and hurt people but has he done anymore than say Revan?

 

Revan was a Jedi and took Jedi away from the light side and went to battle against the Mandalorian and therefore killed and hurt people as well. If he could be redeemed why not Arcann, other than it was against our character.

 

I know your going to say well Revan did that because of a war but Arcann was doing the same thing it was a war and yes he destroyed 5 planets but if you look at it you will see what he did is no less than what Revan did and yet Revan was redeemed.

 

Can we actually say one person deserves mercy and someone else doesn't? I not sure what I will do until the time comes but I am not going to say Arcann doesn't deserve mercy as mercy has been shown to countless others before, except that it wasn't against your character.

[Rolodome]

Why is it is so hard for people to accept that some may want to redeem Arcann. Yes he killed people and hurt people but has he done anymore than say Revan?

 

Revan was a Jedi and took Jedi away from the light side and went to battle against the Mandalorian and therefore killed and hurt people as well. If he could be redeemed why not Arcann, other than it was against our character.

 

I know your going to say well Revan did that because of a war but Arcann was doing the same thing it was a war and yes he destroyed 5 planets but if you look at it you will see what he did is no less than what Revan did and yet Revan was redeemed.

 

Can we actually say one person deserves mercy and someone else doesn't? I not sure what I will do until the time comes but I am not going to say Arcann doesn't deserve mercy as mercy has been shown to countless others before, except that it wasn't against your character.

In RL, I favor mercy for sure, but comparing him to Revan is a pretty weak argument out of the gate. Revan went to war to protect the galaxy from the Mandalorians, who were attacking and destroying people on a rampage. Arcann went to war at his father's behest to conquer the galaxy and showed no signs of caring about the people he affected (Arcann is more like the Mandalorians in this regard). Revan was called to the dark side by the Emperor and seduced by the horrors of war; for a time, he became what he'd sought to destroy. Arcann murdered a ton of civilians to make a point to a band of rebellious people; not even to try to kill them in the cold, calculating way that Malak did. No, just to make a point.

 

Revan lost his memory and was redeemed to the light side. When he rediscovered his identity, he stuck to his roots as a light side Jedi and brought an end to Malak's reign, then dedicated his life to try to take down the Emperor... the true source of corruption that had led him and others so far astray.

 

Arcann was bested in battle by an Outlander and looked sad while his mommy rescued him in a spaceship.

 

It's possible Arcann will do something sacrificial and redeem himself to a point, but right now his greatest deed is failing to beat the Outlander. He has done nothing remotely positive or productive throughout his entire life.

 

There's far more details to him and Revan, but the gist is... comparing them is silly. Revan was a sacrificial protector at heart who became twisted by war and the lure of the dark side. Arcann is the worst kind of Sith at heart and has been since we've known his character.

 

Is Arcann a tragic character? Sure. Is he somewhat of a sympathetic character? I guess, if you consider that he was being fathered by one of the worst people the galaxy has ever known. It's easy to pity him. But he has, so far, done no redeeming deeds. The closest, I guess you could say, is him force pushing Vaylin away when she tries to attack Senya. But one could easily argue that that was just him ensuring he would live to fight another day, not trusting Vaylin to get him safely out of the rubble and collapsing ship.

 

If this game was a darker story, I would fully expect Arcann to stab Senya while her back was turned, once he'd recovered, and then regroup and try to take back the throne. But seeing as how it's magical star wars land, where even the worst person can be redeemed, I fully expect him to be redeemable in some capacity.

[fovzwk]

It's possible Arcann will do something sacrificial and redeem himself to a point, but right now his greatest deed is failing to beat the Outlander. He has done nothing remotely positive or productive throughout his entire life.

 

Hey, to be fair he did manage to contain Evil incarnate (also known as Valkorion, Vitiae, Darth Tenebrae, The Sith Emperor and possibly Izax and Zildrog) in a carbonite prison for 5 years. Until Lana just had to break him out alongside the outlander.

I'd count that as positive. Otherwise you are right about his track record though.

Edited November 6, 2016 by fovzwk

[Rolodome]

Hey, to be fair he did manage to contain Evil incarnate (also known as Valkorion, Vitiae, Darth Tenebrae, The Sith Emperor and possibly Izax and Zildrog) in a carbonite prison for 5 years. Until Lana just had to break him out alongside the outlander.

I'd count that as positive. Otherwise you are right about his track record though.

I guess there's that. Though it begs the question, was he any better of a ruler for the people of Zakuul? Probably not.

[fovzwk]

I guess there's that. Though it begs the question, was he any better of a ruler for the people of Zakuul? Probably not.

 

Indeed probably not. But at least he didn't try to consume all life in the galaxy. He also seemingly lacks all the really messed up mind-rap* and soul destroying darkside abilities Valkorion regularily uses. So there is that. Plus, even Zakuul under Arcann seems reasonably nice in comparison to the Sith Empire under Vitiate.

[SithKoriandr]

I guess there's that. Though it begs the question, was he any better of a ruler for the people of Zakuul? Probably not.

 

He seemed to be just as good of a ruler for Zakuul, until the Outlander arrived.

 

Also, as mentioned above, I don't think Arcann saved Senya to save his own life, thinking Valyn wouldn't. I think he saved her, because all he really wanted was his parents love and approval.

 

His mom ended up leaving him while he was still young, left to try to gain his father's approval, who is a psychopath, so he can't love.

[rashencyberspeed]

He seemed to be just as good of a ruler for Zakuul, until the Outlander arrived.

 

Also, as mentioned above, I don't think Arcann saved Senya to save his own life, thinking Valyn wouldn't. I think he saved her, because all he really wanted was his parents love and approval.

 

His mom ended up leaving him while he was still young, left to try to gain his father's approval, who is a psychopath, so he can't love.

 

As unquestionable as it is that Arcaan is the lesser evil compared to Valkorian, I am inclined to believe that he was a worse ruler. Unlike Valkorian, who ruled with (FAKE) benevolence, Arcaan seemed to be a typical tyrant. In fact, isn't the entire reason Koth joins you is because he liked Valkorian but hated Arcaan?

 

Then again, it could be possible that they might have similar levels of competency, and that their actions towards the core worlds played a part in what the public thought of them. Valkorian pretended to not be interested in them, while Arcaan set out to make them suffer.

[fovzwk]

As unquestionable as it is that Arcaan is the lesser evil compared to Valkorian, I am inclined to believe that he was a worse ruler. Unlike Valkorian, who ruled with (FAKE) benevolence, Arcaan seemed to be a typical tyrant. In fact, isn't the entire reason Koth joins you is because he liked Valkorian but hated Arcaan?

 

Well the eternal Empire itself seems to be still reasonably well off under Arcann. The general populace seems content for the most part and are all well cared for(except of course people living in the crime controlled underground slums which if Senya's information is to be trusted did however already exist before Arcanns rule). The only outright bad thing we see Arcann do to people of the eternal Empire is imprisioning/killing people who openly question his rule.

 

Most of his tyrannic villainy is directed at the Republic and Sith Empire. Like demanding exorbitant tribute, making sure the War on Alderaan doesn't end and selling it as Space-Game of Thrones on pay-TV or brutally subjugating locals via Star Fortresses that bomb the planet should anyone put up resistance. I think Koth also defected when he was ordered to open fire at civilians during the conquest of the core worlds.

[SithKoriandr]

As unquestionable as it is that Arcaan is the lesser evil compared to Valkorian, I am inclined to believe that he was a worse ruler. Unlike Valkorian, who ruled with (FAKE) benevolence, Arcaan seemed to be a typical tyrant. In fact, isn't the entire reason Koth joins you is because he liked Valkorian but hated Arcaan?

 

Then again, it could be possible that they might have similar levels of competency, and that their actions towards the core worlds played a part in what the public thought of them. Valkorian pretended to not be interested in them, while Arcaan set out to make them suffer.

 

He hated Arcann because Arcann had him (Koth) go after civilians. No other reason was really given, as he didn't seem to care about what Valkorian did to the Republic or Empire with his comment of "Well, he was good for Zakuul"

[Xilizhra]

There's far more details to him and Revan, but the gist is... comparing them is silly. Revan was a sacrificial protector at heart who became twisted by war and the lure of the dark side. Arcann is the worst kind of Sith at heart and has been since we've known his character.

I'd say that Revan is worse than Arcann for what he tried to do. Arcann committed many atrocities, but he never tried to wipe out an entire galaxy-spanning civilization.

[Rolodome]

I'd say that Revan is worse than Arcann for what he tried to do. Arcann committed many atrocities, but he never tried to wipe out an entire galaxy-spanning civilization.

I take it you're referencing the Foundry? I'm embarrassed for the Revan in SWTOR, frankly. I want to just pretend that everything after KOTOR was a fever dream, for his character, and he went into the outer rim to pick dandelions and frolic in a spring meadow. Then returned to Bastila with handfuls of flowers and made a garden out front.

[Xilizhra]

I take it you're referencing the Foundry? I'm embarrassed for the Revan in SWTOR, frankly. I want to just pretend that everything after KOTOR was a fever dream, for his character, and he went into the outer rim to pick dandelions and frolic in a spring meadow. Then returned to Bastila with handfuls of flowers and made a garden out front.

I never played KotOR, so to me, Revan's always been a self-righteous genocidal maniac.