Was Chapter 12 "Visions in the Dark" just retconned by BioWare with the new DvL?

[Jamtas]

Chapter 12 was an excuse for weak storytelling, and hopefully, nothing more comes of it, it gets shoved into the dustbin. Whatever content comes after this storyline, will heopfull just reveal KOTFE and KOTET to just be a bad dream influenced by our character's "trip" on Voss.

 

No, go past that part. In fact, never show that part again

Edited October 21, 2016 by Jamtas

[Jamtas]

like, that whole chapter didn't exactly make sense. radical devotion doesn't make anyone stronger by default, otherwise the voss would be entirely unstoppable. yes, they repelled an imperial invasion, but that's not because of them being stronger, it was because they knew the empire's every move before they made it due to visions. that wouldn't save them from a bombardment, they likely couldn't defeat the empire if it seriously invaded with its full force, either. the sith warrior is told the invasion was only for the capture of the voice.

 

what makes a person stronger with the force is intense study and immersion in it. there probably isn't even an argument that grey is stronger, because honestly, both sides of the force can do the same crap. take a lightside ritual and fuel it with dark side, it still works. both sides are really just what you're willing to do to attain strength.

 

Your old weapon is useless. You must forge this new weapon. Only then will you be powerful enough to stop him.

 

Unless there is a shield lying around. Then you should really use that instead. Go Jon Snow on his *** with it.

Edited October 21, 2016 by Jamtas

[Plactus]

I hate Chapter 12. Maybe it's better with another character (than a Light V Sentinel), but...

 

I don't listen to Vitiate, and I don't listen to his words coming from Satele and Marr, either. I beat Arcann by hitting him with my lightsabers (not the one they tried to force on me, which got vendored), and when that stopped working, picking up a shield and bashing him in the face, not any different way of looking at the Force.

Edited October 21, 2016 by Plactus

[SithKoriandr]

I read chapter 12, as the PC as bring balance to the force. Then of course, when the character dies, it'll get lost about that notion, and a new balance to the force will be needed.

[SteveTheCynic]

In Chapter 12 we were led to believe by Valkorian, Satele, and Marr that the Jedi and Sith, as they saw the Force (Light and Dark), was wrong. Apparently, Zakuul had this "third option" based on fanatic devotion that was suggested to be more powerful than the traditional paths and this is allegedly what the Outlander learned to defeat Arcann.

 

With KOTET and this new DvL event, it seems that BioWare is invalidating the entirety of this chapter making everything about Dark vs Light again. Was everything that was said in that chapter a lie? What exactly is the current state of the Force in SWTOR?

Chapter XII didn't exactly say that. They, between them, said that neither "the Dark Side" nor "the Light Side"(1), by itself, will suffice for the battle to come. They didn't actually say that "the ZK Side" was the required solution.

 

It can be read, in fact, as saying that the ZK Side is applicable only to ZKs, since only they have the required loyalty to the Eternal Emperor (whether that means the *office* of the Emperor or the *person* is not clear, but the evidence points to it being the office, not the man).

 

No, what the Chapter said was that clinging to the old ways (i.e. the Dark Side or the Light Side) would not suffice for defeating the Eternal Empire.

 

But yeah, it does seem a little in conflict with the current DvL event *and* the DvL part of Galactic Command.

 

(1) I'm not going to get into a discussion of the position of "Light Side" in the lore. It is an obvious backformation from "Dark Side", and can be taken as a shorthand for "the aspect of the Force that is opposed to the Dark Side".

[KWONRYU]

There are many ways to use the Force, the Sith way, the Jedi way, the Zakuulan way, the House Ordo way, the Jar Jar Binks way etc

 

Only thing to remember though, is that Darth Hillary is a lie, there is only Darth Trump.

[Clarian]

If so, that's progress. Now if they can take it chapter by chapter and eventually retcon all of the Eternal Empire/Valkorion stuff completely out of existence, I'll be satisfied.

[Aowin]

...

 

I'm not questioning whether there is a light or dark. I'm questioning what this alleged "new path" is. No, this has nothing to do with the Will of the Force or the Living Force that Qui Gon Jin alluded to. That had to do with the Force having a plan for everybody. This is merely another understanding that is not Jedi or Sith that apparently is a balance of the two. Whatever that exactly means is anybody's guess as we are never given any further explanation.

 

I'm not just going to assume everything is lies and half-truths because otherwise bringing this stuff up to begin with would be frivolous. No, BioWare is clearly trying to tell us a message. My problem is that message appears to be muddled and incoherent. Yes, this new understanding of the Force matters, whether your character believes it or not, as you are able to defeat Arcann when you could not previously.

[Aowin]

...

 

Marr and Satele explicitly state the Jedi Code and Sith Code are both false. They make it pretty clear that both orders are wrong (even with Marr going as far as saying peace is not a lie) and that the Zakuul understanding of the Force is somehow more enlightened. Again, this is all tied into Zakuul and Odessen apparently being balanced in the Force (not being dark or light).

 

But again, there are multiple things at play here. You are not just giving up your "old ways," but you have craft a "new weapon for a new enemy." There seems to be a lot of symbolism at play, but we know there is some sort of literal transformation of the Outlander as he/she is able to easily outclass Arcann during his/her next encounter.

 

My problem is we've apparently embraced this new understanding (whether the character believes it or not) yet it's never really explained or further explored. What exactly is the Outlander now? Why is he/she so much more powerful than everybody else other than Valkorian's occasional help? There are a lot of questions with very few answers, if any.

 

I understand BioWare is simplifying how the Force works for the purposes of easy consumption and to work more effectively in game. Otherwise, the entire Sith Empire would need to be reworked and how morality works would need to be overhauled. Regardless, I'd be incredibly disappointed if BioWare just abandons this narrative and go back to the tried and true "dark versus light" when apparently everything we've learned explains why it is all so flawed.

[addyusaf]

My question is, why would my BH, agent, trooper, or smuggler even care? To me playing this story as a non force user is where it really falls flat on its face.

 

I brought up an idea of a legacy story mechanic that would allow play through of the chapters on different toons, but advance the story for all of them, so the force heavy chapters could be played on a force user and the others could be played on a non force user. Even though the idea didn't get much traction, I still believe that it is better approach than what we currently have.

[Aeneas_Falco]

I doubt it, but I hope so.

 

The concept of the Force being neither light or dark is one of the worst elements introduced by the EU, and it's at odds with the original movie trilogy that spawned every book or game set in the Star Wars universe. It shouldn't be possible for force user characters to walk a line between the light and dark sides of the Force, and too much dabbling in the dark side should lead to a full dark side fall.

 

Besides any time a supposedly 'gray' force user is introduced, they're not actually morally gray. They're murderers who are just less mustache-twirly in their villainy than the typical Sith. (ex. Revan and every Zakuul knight not named Senya)

Edited October 21, 2016 by Aeneas_Falco

[Atalantia]

The best line in the entire expansion was in chapter 3:

 

Lana: "You Zakuul Knights never learned to properly channel your Anger"

 

Nuff said about balance.

[NobPL]

To me it was just like (NEW JEDI ORDER from EXPANDED UNIVERSE SPOILER):

 

Vergere showing Jacen Solo the Unifying Force as a way to look on it not as light and dark, but something neutral and that it's people that make light or dark decisions. It's philosophy was good for a time, it made the Jedi win Yuuzhan Vong War, but in the years to come Order started to slowly lean towards Dark Side.

 

My point is, changing philosophy of viewing the Force can be good for a time, but no being can stay truly neutral forever.

[ExarSun]

Don't you remember when you defeated Arcann in chapter 16, there was an option to say "I am beyond light and dark"...and Arcann jokingly responds with "Is that what Valkorion told you? He is a liar!"

[jauvtus]

Actually, you are incorrect. Canonically, you cannot be a "Light Side Sith." You don't necessarily have to agree with everything the Sith Code says, but you are obviously corrupted by the Dark Side in order to be a Sith. BioWare created a morality gimmick as a way of injecting more choice, but it does in no way adhere to Star Wars canon and never has.

 

A Dark Side Jedi is really just a fallen Jedi who has been banished by the Jedi Order. If you have been corrupted or fallen to the Dark Side, you would be banished from the Jedi Order without a second thought. You could not realistically maintain a presence when the Jedi see the Dark Side as a cancer.

 

Either way, again, this misses the point of the new understanding of the Force that BioWare was introducing.

 

You fail to understand. Light Side Sith accept the Sith Code but interpret it with a Light Sided mind. The Sith Code is not inherently Dark Side oriented. Light Side Sith have simply different passions. They live to conquer and rule, but also to protect their own. They draw strength from their devotion to their own people to increase their own power. Do they want to rule everything? Yes. But because they know their rule is best for everyone. How are they different from Jedi? They have mercy, but unlike Jedi, they easily strike down an unarmed, defeated enemy, they tend to force their ideas on others, they don't believe in equality (but believe that superior individuals have responsibility towards inferiors).

Play through or watch on Youtube a full playthrough of LS SW and SI (I usually find that in Youtube videos ppl are not 100% LS). They are nothing like the Jedi (which Jedi NPCs note frequently, especially with the SW), yet noone doubts they use the Light Side of the Force.

As for animations: Sadly the animations don't change if you are LS, but that's just the game's engine. But note: basically all Dark Side Powers have their equal with the Light Side (Force Lightning - Electric Judgement, Affliction - Weaken Mind, Force Crush - that's actually not DS, Windu used it on Grievous, Force Choke - that's also not DS contrary to common belief, etc.)

[Wayshuba]

I tend to see the use of the Force as more like a martial art discipline in the real world. The Jedi have their way, the Sith theirs, and Zakuul is just a third option.

 

Like martial disciplines, one is always going to say one is better than the other... it comes with the territory. Zakuul feels theirs is better even though they used it for conquest and destruction. The Sith use theirs for fear and domination. The Jedi use theirs for manipulation and control. So which is really worse?

 

I view that Chapter not so much as insinuating that the "grey" force is better, but rather like Bruce Lee did is recognizing that something could be learned from all martial arts, you were being told to transcend the long held beliefs in the Force (light or dark) and learn there are other ways to use the force. Like holding a shield against power fluxes and using is to bash someone

Edited October 21, 2016 by Wayshuba

[phalczen]

I'm not questioning whether there is a light or dark. I'm questioning what this alleged "new path" is. No, this has nothing to do with the Will of the Force or the Living Force that Qui Gon Jin alluded to. That had to do with the Force having a plan for everybody. This is merely another understanding that is not Jedi or Sith that apparently is a balance of the two. Whatever that exactly means is anybody's guess as we are never given any further explanation.

 

I'm not just going to assume everything is lies and half-truths because otherwise bringing this stuff up to begin with would be frivolous. No, BioWare is clearly trying to tell us a message. My problem is that message appears to be muddled and incoherent. Yes, this new understanding of the Force matters, whether your character believes it or not, as you are able to defeat Arcann when you could not previously.

 

But it does have everything to do with the Will of the Living Force. Darth Marr, upon dying, has realized this, when he says as much to you in Chapter 12.

Furthermore, you can attain this new level of power needed to defeat Arcann even if you reject Shan or Marr's help during the forging. Now, it is possible that is merely a game hack of convenience. But your encounter with the Jurogan at the end of the chapter shows you have mastered something, and you make a L/D choice in that as well.

 

Valkorion respects the Scions more than his son does, but he still disregards the role of destiny/fate, saying in chapter 6 that "Destiny is merely the conduit for our will." Valkorion claims he is beyond light and dark, but in reality he is still just trying to corrupt the Force. In reality, Valky is just another Sith... he thinks his will can and should be enforced over the will of the Force ... Because, as Lucas said, a Force in balance is when the galaxy is on the light side.

 

Valkorion wants you to believe that, like him, you can simply decide the direction of the galaxy and make it so, regardless of what followers of the light or followers of the dark believe. Sith believe that the dark side is stronger, and their strength in the dark side is what entitles them to rule. Valky doesn't really believe that one code is more powerful than the other any longer, but rather it is your will to survive. He says as much in Chapter 2, "You are the only one who has ever matched my will to survive."

 

On the other hand, Shan and Marr are, I believe, trying to get you to understand that if you want to fix the galaxy, you have to learn the Force's plan. The Force has chosen you to undue the corruption Vitiate (subsequently Valkorion) has created. In the end, you can choose to follow the will of the Living Force, or follow your own will like Valkorion encourages.

 

The theme of trying to learn the secrets of the "other side" is certainly something that TCW and Rebels has been exploring. Yoda began to realize this at the end of season 6 of TCW, and its something even Kanaan and Ezra are struggling with. Shan comes to realize the Jedi Code is inadequate because she realizes that you cannot simply abandon passion and emotion, and fully connect to the Force. Heck, even Anakin appears to come to this understanding in Episode 2 when he tells Padme that in truth the Jedi love everyone. You know, the Greek concept of love called "Agape," brotherly love. Similarly, Marr comes to realize that you cannot simply force the "Force" to do your bidding. He realizes that one must give up some control, and that the struggle to defeat your enemy needn't be a struggle with the Force. Marr comes to accept the Jedi notion that the Force is a companion, and Shan comes to accept that emotion and passion are necessary to discover and implement the will of the Force. That's what they are trying to teach you in the wilds of Odessen.

 

That's my take, anyway.

[kodrac]

I think you read far too much into chpt 12.

[Aowin]

...

I agree with much of this post. Other than the Revan remark. He has never been a "Gray Jedi." He was a Jedi, a Sith, and then a Jedi again. While he did not agree with all aspects of the Jedi Code after his redemption, he was without a doubt committed to the Force and not the Dark Side.

 

Either way, I agree this whole idea of a "balance" between dark and light is nonsensical as that contradicts how the Force works in the original trilogy. "Balance" would mean the eradication of the Dark Side, which is a cancer. I don't mind BioWare testing some new waters, if what they are teasing actually makes sense and isn't just bad fan-fiction.

[Aowin]

...

 

Wrong. There is no such thing as a "Light Side Sith." It is a fabrication made up by BioWare to promote more choices on the Sith Empire faction. Being a Sith means being a follower of the Dark Side. Yes, the Sith Code is entirely based in the Dark Side. That doesn't mean you are entirely evil, but you are corrupted. Look anywhere in the Star Wars canon (before and after the EU was retconned). There is no Light Side Sith and there never has been. It simply does not exist.

 

When it comes to BioWare, gameplay trumps the lore. This is why certain abilities have been classified as Dark Side and Light Side. These classifications are in no way canon or official, but it's a way for BioWare to give both sides something.

[AnisaBadgett]

I didn't see this thread (must have gotten bumped) and posted my own but I'll just continue here.

 

This new DvL literally makes all the philosophizing of KotFE a big fat lie. What Marr and Satele said in Chapter 12, what Lana said about the Zakuul Knights, what Valkorion yammered on about ... all of it was pointing toward RAILROADING us into some New and Better version of the Force that transcended Dark and Light.

 

Now, we're going to be expected to run around doing Darkside v Lightside in some "serverwide" battle that no one gives one single poodoo about.

 

I hope we at least get gang sign emotes in the CM packs.

[Aowin]

I view that Chapter not so much as insinuating that the "grey" force is better, but rather like Bruce Lee did is recognizing that something could be learned from all martial arts, you were being told to transcend the long held beliefs in the Force (light or dark) and learn there are other ways to use the force. Like holding a shield against power fluxes and using is to bash someone

If that is really the extent of Chapter 12, I'm going to be horribly disappointed. Not only is that a nonsensical understanding of the Force, but it would also be horribly written if this is never revisited at all in KOTET.

[TUXs]

In Chapter 12 we were led to believe by Valkorian, Satele, and Marr that the Jedi and Sith, as they saw the Force (Light and Dark), was wrong. Apparently, Zakuul had this "third option" based on fanatic devotion that was suggested to be more powerful than the traditional paths and this is allegedly what the Outlander learned to defeat Arcann.

 

With KOTET and this new DvL event, it seems that BioWare is invalidating the entirety of this chapter making everything about Dark vs Light again. Was everything that was said in that chapter a lie? What exactly is the current state of the Force in SWTOR?

STORY vs GAME. The story is the story Bioware is telling you. The DvL thing is the story YOU control. They're not connected...they even said prior to KOTFE that it was a separate story from the rest of the game.

[SithKoriandr]

The most important part of Chapter 12 was Marr saying "The Sith are wrong"

[AnisaBadgett]

STORY vs GAME. The story is the story Bioware is telling you. The DvL thing is the story YOU control. They're not connected...they even said prior to KOTFE that it was a separate story from the rest of the game.

 

I don't recall the nebulous They saying that It was separate before KotFE ... by It do you mean the DvL event currently happening before KotET?

 

Anyway, That is just stupid if That is the ongoing mode of the game. We're supposed to be here for the Righteous BioWare Storytelling and the story should be philosophically consistent with the game, especially when you're talking about The Force and Star Wars. I know, I know, The Force in the game isn't the same as the films or the books but it was internally consistent in the game before Knights of the Kick in the Crotch happened.

 

I mean, I've paid nearly $200 bucks for this Esteemed BioWare Story and I'm supposed to just forget it once I exit the chapters? That's like a double slap in the face.