Gear RNG in 5.0 is a Bad Idea

[azudelphi]

The problem is, we HAVE seen this system before in this game - it was removed for a VERY good reason...it SUCKS! RNG loot boxes have been proven to fail in this game. That's why we don't have them for PvP gear any longer.

Oh yeah... that was what, 4 years ago? Totally forgot about those boxes.

[TUXs]

Oh yeah... that was what, 4 years ago? Totally forgot about those boxes.

Yup! How many of you ever got to the full Battlemaster set? I PvP'd a TON back then...never got my full Battlemaster set. I got close, but never completed it. This is back when PvP and EV was all there was to do at end game too...

[azudelphi]

Yup! How many of you ever got to the full Battlemaster set? I PvP'd a TON back then...never got my full Battlemaster set. I got close, but never completed it. This is back when PvP and EV was all there was to do at end game too...

Yeah... with that in mind I hope the feedback can prompt some discussion or assurances that won't be the case with the new Galactic Command system.

[Vhaegrant]

The problem is, we HAVE seen this system before in this game - it was removed for a VERY good reason...it SUCKS! RNG loot boxes have been proven to fail in this game. That's why we don't have them for PvP gear any longer.

The trouble is it came back as a system with the Dark vs Light event crates.

Not sure if people kicked up enough noise about that one

As a structure for limited rewards RNG is possibly the worst way of doing it.

 

I think I have four upper armour sets of Kreia's that are of zero use to me, and a load of red expertise crystals (that i'll hang onto now I hear they are losing expertise and gaining mastery).

The only upside to it at all as a system is that if you are lucky enough to get something nice (I got the Cathar warblade) it's a hell of a buzz.

[TUXs]

Yeah... with that in mind I hope the feedback can prompt some discussion or assurances that won't be the case with the new Galactic Command system.

Agreed. I don't care if it takes 100 EV, 100 KP and 100 DF/DP runs...just promise me that at some point, I can get that ONE piece I need so badly...

[McHondy]

Yup, did quit 2 games lately because of that damn RNG, both Korean clones though. BDO and Archage. Hate RNG gearing. Like the CXP way of gearing up though, will stop the ninjas 'steeling' stuff in pugs.

 

Better of giving us some sort of currency, so we can still use something like the op vendor to get items we can use.

 

Like the gear you now can buy from the Eternal Championship tokens

[Malachiel]

Personally I am against any form of RNG.

The main reason I left SWTOR in vanilla was because of the absurd end-game RNG grind.

And one of the reasons I came back was because of it's current gearing and progression system.

I feel like I have complete control over my character development.

 

I'm going to give KOTET end-game a decent chance, but if RNG gearing returns, there is a good chance I won't.

Hoping for the best though.

Edited October 18, 2016 by Malachiel

[Jadescythe]

The trouble is it came back as a system with the Dark vs Light event crates.

Not sure if people kicked up enough noise about that one

As a structure for limited rewards RNG is possibly the worst way of doing it.

 

I think I have four upper armour sets of Kreia's that are of zero use to me, and a load of red expertise crystals (that i'll hang onto now I hear they are losing expertise and gaining mastery).

The only upside to it at all as a system is that if you are lucky enough to get something nice (I got the Cathar warblade) it's a hell of a buzz.

 

I don't think people have too many complaints about the RNG loot system for DvL because it was all cosmetic. Players would rather get what they want, but the RNG boxes bring in more money. For actually gameplay loot, it's a different story. I have a much lower tolerance for RNG when I need it to progress and not just for fun.

[azudelphi]

Agreed. I don't care if it takes 100 EV, 100 KP and 100 DF/DP runs...just promise me that at some point, I can get that ONE piece I need so badly...

There's a good suggestion, a sort of Galactic Feats system... complete a task (like clear all story mode ops, or complete X HM ops, 50 uprisings, whatever) get a specific reward. They could even expand on that down the road for other cosmetic items (mounts, color crystals, decorations, etc). That in conjunction with the ranks would give paths of luck and predictability...

[Quraswren]

Yeah... with that in mind I hope the feedback can prompt some discussion or assurances that won't be the case with the new Galactic Command system.

 

I really do think they have already made that decision and there is little we can do about it through discussion. The question was asked:

Quote: Originally Posted by De-mu-noki View Post

First of, are these random drops, that is to say that if I'm extremely unlucky I can't get the best earpiece for my char at all?

 

and BW answered:

Yup, the drops will be random.

 

You may never see the gear you need to complete your main or alts.

 

I think this is something BW planned from the beginning to keep you running the treadmill and doing it over and over on separate toons thus no legacy. Expect to get gear you cannot use, gear you cannot move to an alt through legacy and plenty of gear you are expected to destroy for a handful of extra command points.

Edited October 18, 2016 by Quraswren

[Andryah]

Have you considered... that might be the point?

 

Bioware doesn't want everyone gearing up too fast and noticing the lack of anything new... so by making it take longer, they think it'll keep people busy hunting for that "one perfect item".

 

They might be right, lots of people are mice on the treadmill...

 

I think you are right. And it used to be the more common approach to loot drops in MMOs. Somewhere along the line, some MMOs made the outcome of loot so predictable in what drops that they made raids completely formula driven both in terms of the encounter bosses AND the loot.

 

Thing is.. people are failing to embrace the fact that raids are being deemphasized moving forward in this MMO. Given this, it makes sense to follow the more normal use of RNG on what drops in a group or even a solo encounter. It is the raiders that appear most upset by this shift, for obvious reasons... they have become accustomed to knowing in advance the results of their attendance in a group on a raid.

 

With the RNG approach, individuals and guilds can no longer "game" the system to their personal advantage. RNG randomizes any attempt to do so.

 

Whether this is a better or worse approach to end game is endlessly debatable. It's a circular discussion because viewpoints of many are extremely rigid and fixed. Personally, I like seeing more randomness reintroduced to the outcomes of ones efforts inside an MMO. Of course others do not....they want to beat the game, and do so to a formula that is completely mapped out in advance.

 

I look at all of this in context. And the clear context is that they are dismantling the raid mindset approach to end game in this MMO. Now... avid raiders will of course hate this. It completely dismantles the method, process, and predictability they have become complacent with. Then again, they have hated what this MMO has moved to for more then a year now.

 

News alert... OPs will no longer drop loot. Period. End of discussion. Now step back and ask yourself why you run OPs. Most people will not run OPs if they don't have assurances of gear drops, and there is no formal progression in raiding in this MMO moving forward. So be it. You run an OP for accelerated rep, or for fun because you like doing raids. But there do not appear to be new raids coming. Eric hinted that some more info on some 8 man group content is coming in January, and that this expac is more group focused, but it's 1-4 man and possibly some 8 man coming.

 

Now, why would they go this path? Well.. it encourages players to play what is fun for them in terms of content rather then feeling they simply have to run X-flavor of content for Y-rewards. This of course does not have to be done with RNG based loot boxes, but RNG does make things more uncertain, and it used to be that was a fun part of MMOs.... but for many... they don't like randomness of any kind. You know what RNG does..... it slows down progress.. and with so many people being rapid consumers followed by demands for more to consume.. I can see the value of RNG slowing things down a bit. Of course, many are condemning in advance, prior to even seeing how it plays out... which is pre-judgmental in my view.

Edited October 18, 2016 by Andryah

[Jadescythe]

I think you are right. And it used to be the more common approach to loot drops in MMOs. Somewhere along the line, some MMOs made the outcome of loot so predictable in what drops that they made raids completely formula driven both in terms of the encounter bosses AND the loot.

 

Thing is.. people are failing to embrace the fact that raids are being deemphasized moving forward in this MMO. Given this, it makes sense to follow the more normal use of RNG on what drops in a group or even a solo encounter. It is the raiders that appear most upset by this shift, for obvious reasons... they have become accustomed to knowing in advance the results of their attendance in a group on a raid.

 

With the RNG approach, individuals and guilds can no longer "game" the system to their personal advantage. RNG randomizes any attempt to do so.

 

Whether this is a better or worse approach to end game is endlessly debatable. It's a circular discussion because viewpoints of many are extremely rigid and fixed. Personally, I like seeing more randomness reintroduced to the outcomes of ones efforts inside an MMO. Of course others do not....they want to beat the game, and do so to a formula that is completely mapped out in advance.

 

I look at all of this in context. And the clear context is that they are dismantling the raid mindset approach to end game in this MMO. Now... avid raiders will of course hate this. It completely dismantles the method, process, and predictability they have become complacent with. Then again, they have hated what this MMO has moved to for more then a year now.

 

News alert... OPs will no longer drop loot. Period. End of discussion. Now step back and ask yourself why you run OPs. Most people will not run OPs if they don't have assurances of gear drops, and there is no formal progression in raiding in this MMO moving forward. So be it. You run an OP for accelerated rep, or for fun because you like doing raids. But there do not appear to be new raids coming. Eric hinted that some more info on some 8 man group content is coming in January, and that this expac is more group focused, but it's 1-4 man and possibly some 8 man coming.

 

This post makes no sense. Who is upset about knowing what gear you can get from doing an activity? Whether it be operations or heroics, you knew what gear was going to drop for you when you started it. I haven't seen nearly as many complaints about top level gear being available to everyone as I have around people possibly NEVER getting what they need, regardless of what content they play.

 

I also don't really like the either/or mentality people have. Why can't they allow for gear to be available to everyone, while also not making it RNG related? Couldn't the command system have simply given you points to spend on the gear you wanted rather than randomly assigning you stuff you don't need?

[IanArgent]

I'm waiting to see what the RNG mitigation mechanics are. Comparing these to the old Battlemaster RNG grind as though it will be exactly the same ignores what we already know about the systems. With the "disintegrate" button, a duplicate item is not entirely useless. It could be mostly useless, still - how much GXP do we get from disintegration?

 

How does the command stash work, both for unopened crates and for opened crates?

 

How "targeted" are the crate drops? Will you get AC specific drops or discipline-specific drops? Will you be able to pick the AC or disciple drops received, or will that be set per-character?

 

Can armor and MH/OH be modified, can the modifications be used in other orange shells?

 

Are set bonuses fixed per armor/hilt, or does a set bonus item simply enable the set bonus for the wearer?

 

Depending on the answers to those questions, this could be OK, it could be awful.

 

If disintegrating a full crate's worth of items grants enough GXP to get another crate, that would actually be an huge improvement over the current system, IMO, because you'd be able to draw and discard until you got what you were looking for. (I don't rate this likely, myself, but if disintegration of a full pack's contents gets you most of the way (75%+) towards a new pack, I could live with it; below 50% and I'll be quite peeved).

 

If the Command Stash works the same way the existing CM stash does, that will address some of the concerns about legacy transferrability - items drawn go to stash and can be pulled by other members of the legacy.

 

"Targeting" of drops is a tradeoff - too tightly targeted and it doesn't matter if the stash is legacy-wide, because the items are only worthwhile to the character that is drawing (but see below). Too loose and it takes longer to gear up your first character.

 

If the modifications can be pulled, mixed, and placed in other items; simply as they are today, you can remix your items to make your stat budget, and are only limited by the armor/hilt matching the slot. If they remove that armor/hilt limitation, then getting any armor piece is worthwhile, you strip it and put the mods in the "right" armor slot.

 

And if they move "Set bonus" into a class's passives, and all you require is 2x, 4x, or 6x of gear flagged "enables set bonus," that will make cross-class equipping trivial.

 

Some of these I rate as probable, some of these I rate as improbable. This is the kind of thing I really want see people say. Not just "it sucks, @#$%^!" Show why it sucks, how it sucks, and what can be done to mitigate.Because this is happening, but the implementation details can still change.

[AlCiao]

This post makes no sense. Who is upset about knowing what gear you can get from doing an activity? Whether it be operations or heroics, you knew what gear was going to drop for you when you started it. I haven't seen nearly as many complaints about top level gear being available to everyone as I have around people possibly NEVER getting what they need, regardless of what content they play.

 

I also don't really like the either/or mentality people have. Why can't they allow for gear to be available to everyone, while also not making it RNG related? Couldn't the command system have simply given you points to spend on the gear you wanted rather than randomly assigning you stuff you don't need?

 

This. It's not the Galactic Command system as a whole that I dislike, it's the RNG element of the drops in the crates.

[Vhaegrant]

I don't think people have too many complaints about the RNG loot system for DvL because it was all cosmetic. Players would rather get what they want, but the RNG boxes bring in more money. For actually gameplay loot, it's a different story. I have a much lower tolerance for RNG when I need it to progress and not just for fun.

 

So it's only of note this time around because it impacts on an element of the game you feel is important

[IanArgent]

This. It's not the Galactic Command system as a whole that I dislike, it's the RNG element of the drops in the crates.

 

There are a few people who are upset that anyone can, with enough work, get BiS equipment. There are a few PvP players upset that they can't get PvP BiS gear basically instantly.

 

I'm personally not happy about the RNG element, but that's why I'm posting things that could make it work.

[Andryah]

I'm waiting to see what the RNG mitigation mechanics are. Comparing these to the old Battlemaster RNG grind as though it will be exactly the same ignores what we already know about the systems. With the "disintegrate" button, a duplicate item is not entirely useless. It could be mostly useless, still - how much GXP do we get from disintegration?

 

How does the command stash work, both for unopened crates and for opened crates?

 

How "targeted" are the crate drops? Will you get AC specific drops or discipline-specific drops? Will you be able to pick the AC or disciple drops received, or will that be set per-character?

 

Can armor and MH/OH be modified, can the modifications be used in other orange shells?

 

Are set bonuses fixed per armor/hilt, or does a set bonus item simply enable the set bonus for the wearer?

 

Depending on the answers to those questions, this could be OK, it could be awful.

 

If disintegrating a full crate's worth of items grants enough GXP to get another crate, that would actually be an huge improvement over the current system, IMO, because you'd be able to draw and discard until you got what you were looking for. (I don't rate this likely, myself, but if disintegration of a full pack's contents gets you most of the way (75%+) towards a new pack, I could live with it; below 50% and I'll be quite peeved).

 

If the Command Stash works the same way the existing CM stash does, that will address some of the concerns about legacy transferrability - items drawn go to stash and can be pulled by other members of the legacy.

 

"Targeting" of drops is a tradeoff - too tightly targeted and it doesn't matter if the stash is legacy-wide, because the items are only worthwhile to the character that is drawing (but see below). Too loose and it takes longer to gear up your first character.

 

If the modifications can be pulled, mixed, and placed in other items; simply as they are today, you can remix your items to make your stat budget, and are only limited by the armor/hilt matching the slot. If they remove that armor/hilt limitation, then getting any armor piece is worthwhile, you strip it and put the mods in the "right" armor slot.

 

And if they move "Set bonus" into a class's passives, and all you require is 2x, 4x, or 6x of gear flagged "enables set bonus," that will make cross-class equipping trivial.

 

Some of these I rate as probable, some of these I rate as improbable. This is the kind of thing I really want see people say. Not just "it sucks, @#$%^!" Show why it sucks, how it sucks, and what can be done to mitigate.Because this is happening, but the implementation details can still change.

 

Excellent analysis and speculation.

[AlCiao]

I'm waiting to see what the RNG mitigation mechanics are. Comparing these to the old Battlemaster RNG grind as though it will be exactly the same ignores what we already know about the systems. With the "disintegrate" button, a duplicate item is not entirely useless. It could be mostly useless, still - how much GXP do we get from disintegration?

 

How does the command stash work, both for unopened crates and for opened crates?

 

How "targeted" are the crate drops? Will you get AC specific drops or discipline-specific drops? Will you be able to pick the AC or disciple drops received, or will that be set per-character?

 

Can armor and MH/OH be modified, can the modifications be used in other orange shells?

 

Are set bonuses fixed per armor/hilt, or does a set bonus item simply enable the set bonus for the wearer?

 

Depending on the answers to those questions, this could be OK, it could be awful.

 

If disintegrating a full crate's worth of items grants enough GXP to get another crate, that would actually be an huge improvement over the current system, IMO, because you'd be able to draw and discard until you got what you were looking for. (I don't rate this likely, myself, but if disintegration of a full pack's contents gets you most of the way (75%+) towards a new pack, I could live with it; below 50% and I'll be quite peeved).

 

If the Command Stash works the same way the existing CM stash does, that will address some of the concerns about legacy transferrability - items drawn go to stash and can be pulled by other members of the legacy.

 

"Targeting" of drops is a tradeoff - too tightly targeted and it doesn't matter if the stash is legacy-wide, because the items are only worthwhile to the character that is drawing (but see below). Too loose and it takes longer to gear up your first character.

 

If the modifications can be pulled, mixed, and placed in other items; simply as they are today, you can remix your items to make your stat budget, and are only limited by the armor/hilt matching the slot. If they remove that armor/hilt limitation, then getting any armor piece is worthwhile, you strip it and put the mods in the "right" armor slot.

 

And if they move "Set bonus" into a class's passives, and all you require is 2x, 4x, or 6x of gear flagged "enables set bonus," that will make cross-class equipping trivial.

 

Some of these I rate as probable, some of these I rate as improbable. This is the kind of thing I really want see people say. Not just "it sucks, @#$%^!" Show why it sucks, how it sucks, and what can be done to mitigate.Because this is happening, but the implementation details can still change.

 

I agree with Andryah, excellent analysis and speculation

[Andryah]

There are a few people who are upset that anyone can, with enough work, get BiS equipment. There are a few PvP players upset that they can't get PvP BiS gear basically instantly.

 

More then a few, in my opinion. Gear elitism is rampant in MMOs. PvPers and Raiders in particular have run this gambit in MMOs for a long time now. It just got dismantled in this MMO by 5.0.

 

I'm personally not happy about the RNG element, but that's why I'm posting things that could make it work.

 

Yeah. Hard to objectively condemn something before actually seeing how it works in play. Besides, I expect some adjustments to what goes live anyway after they see it play with a very large live population. The nature of MMOs is to adjust and change over time.

Edited October 18, 2016 by Andryah

[otisjerek]

I sincerely hope these packs are not RNG based. They removed the awful Battlemaster pvp gear RNG which existed at the beginning of the game for good reason. Getting your 7th set of boots when you're yet to have a headpiece or gloves is extremely irritating.

[Andryah]

I sincerely hope these packs are not RNG based. They removed the awful Battlemaster pvp gear RNG which existed at the beginning of the game for good reason. Getting your 7th set of boots when you're yet to have a headpiece or gloves is extremely irritating.

 

Honestly, I expect RNG will be a boon to the high end crafters. That is a good thing in my view as players who are impatient can backfill empty slots with crafted gear and relax and crafters have more relevance.

Edited October 18, 2016 by Andryah

[Jadescythe]

Depending on the answers to those questions, this could be OK, it could be awful.

 

I think this sums it up fairly nicely. No matter what BW says in response to your questions, the system isn't good. It may be ok or it may be awful, but nothing they have said is leading players towards a positive opinion. Giving gear to the masses who don't PvP/raid could have been a huge win for the majority of the community and they found a way to make the best response neutral to the change.

[JamieKirby]

When i do flashpoints in a group on my Juggernaut in dps mode, i tend to get tanking gear 90% of the time.....if it was truely random i should be getting tanking gear 50% of the time, the rest going to dps gear....but nope.

[Rolodome]

I'm waiting to see what the RNG mitigation mechanics are. Comparing these to the old Battlemaster RNG grind as though it will be exactly the same ignores what we already know about the systems. With the "disintegrate" button, a duplicate item is not entirely useless. It could be mostly useless, still - how much GXP do we get from disintegration?

 

How does the command stash work, both for unopened crates and for opened crates?

 

How "targeted" are the crate drops? Will you get AC specific drops or discipline-specific drops? Will you be able to pick the AC or disciple drops received, or will that be set per-character?

 

Can armor and MH/OH be modified, can the modifications be used in other orange shells?

 

Are set bonuses fixed per armor/hilt, or does a set bonus item simply enable the set bonus for the wearer?

 

Depending on the answers to those questions, this could be OK, it could be awful.

 

If disintegrating a full crate's worth of items grants enough GXP to get another crate, that would actually be an huge improvement over the current system, IMO, because you'd be able to draw and discard until you got what you were looking for. (I don't rate this likely, myself, but if disintegration of a full pack's contents gets you most of the way (75%+) towards a new pack, I could live with it; below 50% and I'll be quite peeved).

 

If the Command Stash works the same way the existing CM stash does, that will address some of the concerns about legacy transferrability - items drawn go to stash and can be pulled by other members of the legacy.

 

"Targeting" of drops is a tradeoff - too tightly targeted and it doesn't matter if the stash is legacy-wide, because the items are only worthwhile to the character that is drawing (but see below). Too loose and it takes longer to gear up your first character.

 

If the modifications can be pulled, mixed, and placed in other items; simply as they are today, you can remix your items to make your stat budget, and are only limited by the armor/hilt matching the slot. If they remove that armor/hilt limitation, then getting any armor piece is worthwhile, you strip it and put the mods in the "right" armor slot.

 

And if they move "Set bonus" into a class's passives, and all you require is 2x, 4x, or 6x of gear flagged "enables set bonus," that will make cross-class equipping trivial.

 

Some of these I rate as probable, some of these I rate as improbable. This is the kind of thing I really want see people say. Not just "it sucks, @#$%^!" Show why it sucks, how it sucks, and what can be done to mitigate.Because this is happening, but the implementation details can still change.

Good points, but I'm worried because they're doing this under the premise of simplifying gear acquisition and use, so any suggestions that add further complexity to the system are going to be taken with a bucket of salt.

 

If they really want to simplify, then don't just remove expertise. Remove tanking stats and healing stats, and put the bonuses in the skill trees. Vets may not like the decreased nuance, but if BW really wants to simplify, that would be the way to do it. Then make the end-game gear drop in a fixed manner, based on GC level, i.e. level 2 gives out Implant and Earpiece, level 3 gives out Bracers and Belt, that kind of thing. Any other items they're giving out through GC (non-stat items) can be RNG.

[TUXs]

And if they move "Set bonus" into a class's passives, and all you require is 2x, 4x, or 6x of gear flagged "enables set bonus," that will make cross-class equipping trivial.

...that would be freaking brilliant!!!