Gear RNG in 5.0 is a Bad Idea

[Alenda]

I have been in the game since day one of launch but this new system just had me cancel my sub. There is no reason to run this treadmill.

[gabigool]

News alert... OPs will no longer drop loot. Period. End of discussion. Now step back and ask yourself why you run OPs. Most people will not run OPs if they don't have assurances of gear drops, and there is no formal progression in raiding in this MMO moving forward. So be it. You run an OP for accelerated rep, or for fun because you like doing raids. But there do not appear to be new raids coming. Eric hinted that some more info on some 8 man group content is coming in January, and that this expac is more group focused, but it's 1-4 man and possibly some 8 man coming.

 

Surprisingly, most of us run Ops because it's fun. We get into voice coms. Talk. Laugh. And kill stuff. Stuff that is a bit more interesting than mashing auto attack. Stuff that we actually have to think about. Try. Maybe we try it on new classes. Maybe we try for timed runs. Maybe we have contests against other teams in our guild for fun.

 

It's not about the gear. Never has been. You simply do not understand.

 

We do not raid for gear. We gear for raiding.

 

Now, why would they go this path? Well.. it encourages players to play what is fun for them in terms of content rather then feeling they simply have to run X-flavor of content for Y-rewards. This of course does not have to be done with RNG based loot boxes, but RNG does make things more uncertain, and it used to be that was a fun part of MMOs.... but for many... they don't like randomness of any kind. You know what RNG does..... it slows down progress.. and with so many people being rapid consumers followed by demands for more to consume.. I can see the value of RNG slowing things down a bit. Of course, many are condemning in advance, prior to even seeing how it plays out... which is pre-judgmental in my view.

 

Are you honestly trying to imply that the content cycle needs artificial stretching? Bro, grab a calendar. We're going more than two years between Operations. You're saying laughable things.

 

Here is the point. The fastest way to gear a character for raiding pre-5.0 is to raid.

The fastest way to gear a character post 5.0 is to do a GSF Weekly.

 

You can try to sound as smart as you'd like in defending this but it's a fool's errand. It is indefensible.

 

Newsflash. The players who "tear through the content", then look around, demand more and leave are gone. They left almost two years ago. There is no point using them in your argument.

 

The players that are still here to raid have come to terms with the content cycle. We just want to raid. RNG boxes mean we have to PvP or GSF. That's idiotic.

Edited October 18, 2016 by gabigool

[IanArgent]

Good points, but I'm worried because they're doing this under the premise of simplifying gear acquisition and use, so any suggestions that add further complexity to the system are going to be taken with a bucket of salt.

 

If they really want to simplify, then don't just remove expertise. Remove tanking stats and healing stats, and put the bonuses in the skill trees. Vets may not like the decreased nuance, but if BW really wants to simplify, that would be the way to do it. Then make the end-game gear drop in a fixed manner, based on GC level, i.e. level 2 gives out Implant and Earpiece, level 3 gives out Bracers and Belt, that kind of thing. Any other items they're giving out through GC (non-stat items) can be RNG.

 

If you look at the "fixed stat" gear that is awarded from various sources, there is no difference between heal and DPS gear. Which makes conceptual sense; even if practically heals "wants" more alacrity and DPS "wants" more crit because of the way the roles differ in play.

 

I am mildly surprised they didn't simplify shield and absorb into one shield stat they way they collapsed crit in 4.0; but I suspect there's some math in there that I don't understand based on class differences.

 

Some of my suggestions do simplify gearing, in particular moving set bonus effect to the class from the gear, and unlocking armor/hilt from the slot they come in. The rest of them I tried to leverage existing systems, such as the stash, etc. I'm on the side that thinks the game's currently more baroque than it needs to be, after all.

[Rolodome]

If you look at the "fixed stat" gear that is awarded from various sources, there is no difference between heal and DPS gear. Which makes conceptual sense; even if practically heals "wants" more alacrity and DPS "wants" more crit because of the way the roles differ in play.

 

I am mildly surprised they didn't simplify shield and absorb into one shield stat they way they collapsed crit in 4.0; but I suspect there's some math in there that I don't understand based on class differences.

 

Some of my suggestions do simplify gearing, in particular moving set bonus effect to the class from the gear, and unlocking armor/hilt from the slot they come in. The rest of them I tried to leverage existing systems, such as the stash, etc. I'm on the side that thinks the game's currently more baroque than it needs to be, after all.

Yeah, I missed your simplifications in my first read. My bad.

[AlCiao]

Just as a minor correction, there IS difference between dps and heal gear. DPS gets accuracy, which is completely and utterly useless for healers (as your heals can't 'miss').

[IanArgent]

Surprisingly, most of us run Ops because it's fun. We get into voice coms. Talk. Laugh. And kill stuff. Stuff that is a bit more interesting than mashing auto attack. Stuff that we actually have to think about. Try. Maybe we try it on new classes. Maybe we try for timed runs. Maybe we have contests against other teams in our guild for fun.

 

It's not about the gear. Never has been. You simply do not understand.

 

We do not raid for gear. We gear for raiding.

 

This is why I respect you; and why I am in agreement with your concerns. You're getting set back by (from some numbers I've seen here, that were probably sourced from naughty sources) several months at least, probably more if the RNG is bad and the mitigation doesn't work. Months that you already put in.

 

 

 

Are you honestly trying to imply that the content cycle needs artificial stretching. Bro, grab a calendar. We're going more than two years between Operations. You're saying laughable things.

 

Here is the point. The fastest way to gear a character for raiding pre-5.0 is to raid.

The fastest way to gear a character post 5.0 is to do a GSF Weekly.

 

A GSF weekly requires 7 missions (wins count double). My matches run around 5 minutes per, outside of queue time, with quite a lot of variability in times. That means a GSF weekly takes about 30 minutes, not includive of queue time. I don't have enough data to know how long each Op takes - I had assumed they were all calibrated to around an hour until I played SnV. Plus there's a lot more friction to get into one. OTOH, there's only one GSF weekly per character, and there are how many Ops weeklies? (On the gripping hand, who has time to run all the ops in a week). GSF weekly is fast and brain-dead simple to complete; but you can only do it once.

 

Devs, please at least outline the reasoning behind the relative GXP value of each type of content, soon.

 

The players that are still here to raid have come to terms with the content cycle. We just want to raid. RNG boxes mean we have to PvP or GSF. That's idiotic.

 

I suspect that mono-type players of all kinds are not going to be catered to in game design going forward. Whether that's a Good Idea or not, I'm not going to speculate. The "pure" PvPers are making the same argument, with the same supports. It's a decent argument, and one I'm sympathetic to, even if I'm not a mono-type player.

[IanArgent]

Just as a minor correction, there IS difference between dps and heal gear. DPS gets accuracy, which is completely and utterly useless for healers (as your heals can't 'miss').

 

The difference at the current common data crystal level appears to be the difference between 105% and 110% for heal and DPS respectively (not logged in or I'd check directly). And, of course, I was talking about the unoptimized/fixed gear given out during leveling, not the "calculated" BiS numbers. Looking at the current PvE gearing guide, I see that the healing discpilines sac accuracy entirely for crit and alacrity, both of which are higher than the DPS disciplines in the AC.

[gabigool]

I suspect that mono-type players of all kinds are not going to be catered to in game design going forward. Whether that's a Good Idea or not, I'm not going to speculate. The "pure" PvPers are making the same argument, with the same supports. It's a decent argument, and one I'm sympathetic to, even if I'm not a mono-type player.

 

Yup. But I do not see this a a lack of catering. I see this as total disregard of two entire playerbases.

 

I am unclear on how the insertion of Galactic Command without the removal of existing mechanisms to gear via Ops boss drops and PvP coms is not better than a system that removes them.

Edited October 18, 2016 by gabigool

[IanArgent]

I am unclear on how the insertion of Galactic Command without the removal of existing mechanisms to gear via Ops boss drops and PvP coms is not better than a system that removes them.

 

It depends on what their goal is.I can think of a couple reasons that, for the overall health of the game and benefit of new players, they might want to slow down gear acquisition and de-emphasize the importance of alts in the gear grind. Most of them involve altering the power balance between veterans and new players.

 

OTOH, and as usual, BW appears to have over-reacted and overdone a course correction. If "months to GC level cap" is true, that's not a good idea.

[gabigool]

It depends on what their goal is.I can think of a couple reasons that, for the overall health of the game and benefit of new players, they might want to slow down gear acquisition and de-emphasize the importance of alts in the gear grind. Most of them involve altering the power balance between veterans and new players.

 

They could have done this by simply removing EV/KP from HHM rotation.

[IanArgent]

They could have done this by simply removing EV/KP from HHM rotation.

 

How does that empower new players relative to veterans? First, it's Hard Mode operation, something that the new player may not even know exists when they hit level cap. Secondly, it removes options for the newer player to gear up "easily."

[AlCiao]

I'm afraid that one argument which I don't understand, is the argument of, "I'm a PvPer, why do I have to raid?" or "I'm a raider, why do I have to GSF?" You DON'T have to do any of these things. PvPers can do nothing but pvp and still get geared up. Raiders can do nothing but raid and still gear up. Galactic Command is all about expanding the options available to you in order to get gear.

 

As I said before, I have no problem with the basic premise of GC, it's solely the RNG element that stupefies me.

[Jadescythe]

I'm afraid that one argument which I don't understand, is the argument of, "I'm a PvPer, why do I have to raid?" or "I'm a raider, why do I have to GSF?" You DON'T have to do any of these things. PvPers can do nothing but pvp and still get geared up. Raiders can do nothing but raid and still gear up. Galactic Command is all about expanding the options available to you in order to get gear.

 

As I said before, I have no problem with the basic premise of GC, it's solely the RNG element that stupefies me.

 

Mostly due to the scaling rewards of time. If one way to gear is much faster than another, it can have large impacts on PvP. If I do all the raids and have the best gear, but you have to do warzones for weeks to reach that point, then I can hop in PvP with an advantage simply because I was willing to raid. Obviously an exaggeration, but anytime there is a significantly faster way to gear, those who are willing to take it will be ahead of those who just "play what they want".

[IanArgent]

Mostly due to the scaling rewards of time. If one way to gear is much faster than another, it can have large impacts on PvP. If I do all the raids and have the best gear, but you have to do warzones for weeks to reach that point, then I can hop in PvP with an advantage simply because I was willing to raid. Obviously an exaggeration, but anytime there is a significantly faster way to gear, those who are willing to take it will be ahead of those who just "play what they want".

 

The well-rounded player will be ahead of his mono-mode conterpart in gear. The mono-mode counterpart might be ahead in skill. OTOH, we appear to be talking "set bonus," not "statisical advantage," since crafters can make statistically-equivalent gear without set bonus. I'm (certainly) not going ot say set bonus is unimportant, but it's also not the "only thing."

[Jadescythe]

The well-rounded player will be ahead of his mono-mode conterpart in gear. The mono-mode counterpart might be ahead in skill. OTOH, we appear to be talking "set bonus," not "statisical advantage," since crafters can make statistically-equivalent gear without set bonus. I'm (certainly) not going ot say set bonus is unimportant, but it's also not the "only thing."

 

As someone who participates in most of the game, it won't be my problem. But is a significant change from today where doing the content you want is the best path to getting the gear you need. PvP has also notoriously been one of the worst ways to earn credits, making it more difficult to purchase crafted gear, even if you wanted to. We don't know if it will be a problem, but one of the major reasons for the separation of PvE and PvP gear was to keep players from having to do one or the other. The speed of acquisition is definitely something to keep in mind with the new system.

[Madbent]

RNG absolutely sucks. I still don't have complete sets... and forget about min/max after endless WZs and GSF matches. The previous gearing system was far superior.

 

I suppose Bioware doesn't want us to ever use multiple characters actively? Why do the grind? It isn't worth it.

 

RNG, what a f***ing fail.

Edited June 30, 2017 by Madbent

[IanArgent]

RNG absolutely sucks. I still don't have complete sets... and forget about min/max after endless WZs and GSF matches. The previous gearing system was far superior.

 

I suppose Bioware doesn't want us to ever use multiple characters actively? Why do the grind? It isn't worth it.

 

RNG, what a f***ing fail.

 

You can buy base-tier set bonus armor off a vendor now with what are functionally comms (the coin you get from every crate); and the currency is legacy-wide. You only get 5 per box, so it's really slow going, but you can do it now

 

Whether the acquisition rate of crates is high enough to make it sustainable, I don't know. I had taken a bit of a break from the game for most of June,then picked up a below-level-cap character and was somewhat surprised at how fast a newly-minted 70 got crates (though some of it was almost certainly because I was doing some GSF during a period when GSF GXP rates were boosted).

[cagthehack]

You can buy base-tier set bonus armor off a vendor now with what are functionally comms (the coin you get from every crate); and the currency is legacy-wide. You only get 5 per box, so it's really slow going, but you can do it now

 

First of all, this is a game. NOT A JOB.

 

The only way it's somewhat reasonable, is having a char at level 70 and still on the first chapter. I have a sin like that. Started him during the DvL event. Got him to 70 before I even finished chapter 1 (though PVP mostly). Got distracted by another game and parked him. Now I'm just starting chapter 2 and at rank 15 from just questing.

 

Went into Boarding Party (solo FP) and walked out 2 ranks higher (though I did have a 25% CC boost token active). But what this tells me, that if you started collecting CXP ar level 1, this system might not be so bad. The problem would be gear, of course. I mean, you really can't reward 230 to a level 32 character. But maybe just award the points. I don't know.

 

What I do know, is that right now the system sucks big time. And in order to get decent gear you either have to grind CXP/ranks and hope for the best or grind creds and buy the gear. Grinding the same content over and over is out of the question for me. I just won't do it. Of course I could just hit up a gold seller and but 100m creds for like 25 bucks, That what a few other players I know did. This is what this update has encouraged.

 

So my only option is to PVP until my eyes fall out. Or quit. And I haven't decided which to do. The class balance is so bad in PVP it's barely tolerable. Unless of course I just give up, and use one of my instant 70 tokens and roll a merc or healing specced sorc.

 

I guess I'm waiting for the next couple of updates.

[DarthOvertone]

Not only is BW trash, but they're stupid af.

[SentinelThain]

I've simply had enough of it and quit.Took my money and went.So did a few of my pals.It's just not worth the time/reward.

Bring back Comms,RNG at end game is f*****g idiotic and no way am I putting up with it any longer.

Edited August 11, 2017 by SentinelThain

[VirtualMorrigan]

So my only option is to PVP until my eyes fall out. Or quit. And I haven't decided which to do. The class balance is so bad in PVP it's barely tolerable. Unless of course I just give up, and use one of my instant 70 tokens and roll a merc or healing specced sorc.

 

Given the way they are now, I doubt you will find much enjoyment with the healing specced sorc.

[Decidion]

RNG at end game is f*****g idiotic and no way am I putting up with it any longer.

 

Yep, they have been told hundreds of times by thousands of players but continue to fail to truly fix the problem and instead throw **unsatisfactory** band aid after band aid on it when many great ideas have been presented to them.

 

Obviously, after all this time, they do not want us as customers.

[DarthOvertone]

I've simply had enough of it and quit.Took my money and went.So did a few of my pals.It's just not worth the time/reward.

Bring back Comms,RNG at end game is f*****g idiotic and no way am I putting up with it any longer.

 

I don't blame you one bit brother. Best of luck to you.