Why Macros belong in TOR.

[Sookster]

I'll repost what I said in another thread that a mod closed

 

I've played MMO games since the mid 90's, this is one game that I do not think macros are needed.

 

I'm left handed, I have every key bound (42-44) and manually do everything, this is one of the simplest MMO games out there, in certain situations games like WoW needed macros (all those totems as a shaman), or in City of Heroes with Kheldian or Soldiers of Arachnos having multiple forms/stances or only having 2 damn skill rows in SWG definitely needed macros but with 4 rows in this game, there's no excuse.

 

Macros does NOT increase skill, get that out of your head.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Sookster

[Blagaah]

@matslarson Thanks for taking that one sentence out of context. Let me ask you, if I log in, run a few space missions, then do a class quest or two and log out, have I had an impact on anyone else's gameplay? There are portions of this game that effect others; auctions, Ops, Flashpoints, farming if I get to a node that you are also running towards first (who farms in SWTOR really? That's what companions are for), chat, pvp, and possibly questing (though I have yet to run into a place where I can't get enough mobs to kill because someone else is there killing them.)

 

So yes, there are lots of things that effect others, but if you'd read my entire post, you'd see that I was limiting the examples I gave there to make a point about macros and not worrying about the way in which people that YOU PERSONALLY don't play with play this game. The thrust of my comment was to illustrate that a lot of what we do in game relies on the individual player to make choices as to how they play and given that we (the player base) aren't clones not everyone is going to chose the same play style. However, unless you can, as I asked for previously, give me solid and concrete evidence (specifics please) that isn't simply rooted in how the idea of something you disagree with makes you feel, you're simply making emotional statements.

 

Again, I challenge anyone who hasn't taken the time to learn their class to be as effective a person who has, macros or no.

Edited June 20, 2012 by Blagaah
Spelling corrections

[Subatia]

(did you make a "speling eror" as a joke or is it somewhat ironic, matslarson ?)

 

now tell me WHERE IS THE FKN SKILL DIFERENCE?!?! IN ALL THE CASES U NEED :eye coordination,game awareness and fast reflexes!the only diference i see is HOW FAST u can dispel,and as i see it and AS THE MAJORITY OF COMPETITIVE PVP COMUNITY SEES IT>>>>> FASTER=BETTER..and CLICKIN STUFF just MAKES IT SLOW...NOT in ANYWAY related to skill

 

*Relevant part I shall comment on*

 

You just said there is no skill difference between macros and no, only timing. But the mouse-over you made with AHK would still register a click, so you are not actually speeding anything up. And 1 button press for a click and a dispell may be TOS violating.

If there is no skill difference and no timing difference, then why rely on the crutch, other than laziness or lack of skill?

Now if you are using a macro that selects Frame 1 and then dispells in 1 button click, you're in violation of the TOS.

 

u can make MOUSE OVER HEAL MACROS...MOUSE OVER CHARGE MACROS...TRINKET+ADRENAL+SELF BUFF IN 1 KEY MACROS..etcetc...pretty much any macro u used in other games...

 

That is a violation.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=485220&page=5

Quote: Originally Posted by Beruthien - Customer Service Representative

Greetings everyone,

 

When talking about anything macro related we would like to provide the following guidelines:

 

No automation

No delays or looped commands in macros

It is okay to bind a macro that performs abilities after each other as long as it still requires the user to press the button on the physical keyboard each time a new action is performed

 

These rules apply regardless of which peripheral you are using.

 

Hope this clears it up a bit, but if you have further questions regarding the topic please get back to us!

 

So if I read this right, to make a legal "mouse-over" macro, you would have to write an AHK script that, when pushed, would click under your mouse then, when you push the button again, dispell.

So you have successfully gone from a click and button push to 2 button pushes. GJ!

[matslarson]

Haha, yes my "speling eror" was meant to be ironic. Also this ^ is 100% accurate. The type of macro described above would be a violation of the ToS.

[matslarson]

So yes, there are lots of things that effect others, but if you'd read my entire post, you'd see that I was limiting the examples I gave there to make a point about macros and not worrying about the way in which people that YOU PERSONALLY don't play with play this game.

 

If you not only read my post, but applied a little brainpower, you'd understand that playing an MMO makes you part of the community and your actions affect it as a whole, regardless of whether each individual action has a directly observable effect on another specific member of that community. If you play with macros that sequence your ideal rotation, and BW says you are allowed to do so, even if you never play in a single op/fp/wz with me, sooner or later that decision will affect me. If you're allowed to use that macro while playing your single player game, who's to say some other guy can't use it in PvP? Fast-forward a couple months and suddenly complicated cast-sequence macros are a de facto requirement to even enter a warzone. (See WoW) The same thing applies for even the simplest macros

Edited June 20, 2012 by matslarson

[Blagaah]

Not arguing for anything more complex then say button paging or /chat commands, mate.

 

You are correct that nothing exists in a perfect vacuum. The comments weren't even meant to say that if macros were enabled and you chose not to use them that they would have no impact on your game. They would, b/c the person you're competing against would have at least a perceived advantage. My main point is that 1) there is a middle ground between OMG PROGRAMMERS WIN! and 'Wow, all these bars and buttons all over the place sure do look ugly, I'd love to be able to collapse them down to save some space."

 

You're still talking theoretical though. Tell me some time you had your butt handed to you by someone using macros that you chose not to use? Give me a real world example of the things you're afraid of or concerned would ruin the game. Don't keep telling me that macros mask a lack of skill (in which case it really doesn't, it's just a different path to get to the same point) or that they offend you because you rely on pure finger agility to maximize your toon. Remove your emotional response and use logic and fact to dispute me. As for the ToS violations, well, anyone that does that should get banned. ToS violation is ToS violation, regardless of if you think you SHOULD be able to do something.

[Artrii]

I support the idea of chat macros. They come in handy when calling out incomings in warzones, and also when advertising guild recruitment. Other than that, I see no need for macros.

[UGLYMRJ]

I support the idea of chat macros. They come in handy when calling out incomings in warzones, and also when advertising guild recruitment. Other than that, I see no need for macros.

 

The macros you're talking about and the macros the OP is calling for are 2 very different things. Macros used for text I can get behind... the original purpose of this thread I can not.

[matslarson]

You're still talking theoretical though. Tell me some time you had your butt handed to you by someone using macros that you chose not to use? Give me a real world example of the things you're afraid of or concerned would ruin the game. Don't keep telling me that macros mask a lack of skill (in which case it really doesn't, it's just a different path to get to the same point) or that they offend you because you rely on pure finger agility to maximize your toon. Remove your emotional response and use logic and fact to dispute me. As for the ToS violations, well, anyone that does that should get banned. ToS violation is ToS violation, regardless of if you think you SHOULD be able to do something.

 

Macros aren't implemented directly in the game, easily available to all players, so of course any discussion about what would happen if they were is purely theoretical. I cannot tell you about some time I got my butt handed to me by someone using macros, because it's impossible for me to know whether my opponent is using them. I never said they mask a lack of skill, I said they make little skill go further. Finger agility and the ability to press the right combination of your 103 buttons at the right time is part of the skill of playing an MMO or any other game. There are other factors involved, such as situational awareness and the ability to develop complex strategies on-the-fly, but just because dexterity isn't the only factor doesn't mean it isn't/shouldn't be a factor. When you reduce the number of buttons required to achieve the same result, you are removing some of the dexterity and agility factors. If you don't understand how this affects the skill requirement of gameplay then nothing I say will help you understand. Also quit calling any argument that disagrees with you an "emotional response." Everything listed above is a fact, no emotion involved.

 

If all you're calling for are button-paging or chat macros, good for you, those are very simple quality of life features that don't alter combat mechanics, but the same cannot be said for most of the people advocating for macros in this thread.

Edited June 20, 2012 by matslarson

[Blagaah]

@matslarson Use another game then. Tell me about the horrors of WoW or the overly complex timing required my FFXI, or the system used in EQ1/2....come on man, you don't have to limit yourself to SWTOR. Edited June 20, 2012 by Blagaah

[mangarrage]

The only "macros" is used in eq were chat

No issue with chat macros

 

Macros in wow or rift well that is just a joke and should never appear in any game again ever

[PunkyBrewski]

I played WoW for a year or three... and the only macros, that i ever really consistantly needed/used were ones that popped trinkets/relics/or other equipment with a /use functions such as engineering glove/belt mods; or any spell that was instant and off the GCD with a special requirement. (like a hunters kill-shot pre-nerf).

 

Macro support would be great, especially since i don't have enough UI slots available to put my 2 relics in.... right now to use them i have to open the character sheet and click on them.

[Brool]

@matslarson Use another game then. Tell me about the horrors of WoW or the overly complex timing required my FFXI, or the system used in EQ1/2....come on man, you don't have to limit yourself to SWTOR.

 

Why should he use another game? We are playing TOR not wow or FFXI or eq.

[beliglath]

As a Sith warrior i cant wait for macros, i really need to remove intervine from my keybindings and consolidate it with charge with a mouseover that changes depending if the target is friendly or hostile. and of course i want to add a retaliation after some of my attacks without the need to smash it all the time but more importantly i want to be able to macro to target an oponent and guard HES current target while taunting him at the same time

[Blagaah]

Why should he use another game? We are playing TOR not wow or FFXI or eq.

 

Because the conversation is about macros and whether they ruin the game or not. It /is/ possible to draw on previous experience in order to draw conclusions about what you're dealing with now.

[gofortheko]

Why is this a conversation? You can buy a keyboard that allows you to macro, so adding it in game would just make those morons who had to pay for the programmable keyboard look well like morons. I always find it funny that those guys who use those keyboards think they are the bees knees in pvp cause they can hit 1 button to trigger 5 abilities.

 

I do think there SHOULD be some macros, IE stacking strike and zealot strike for sent (do I need two buttons to do the same damn thing on two keybinds) or riposite for guardians so they dont miss it when it pops.

 

though since they are getting rid of relic boosts and adrenal boosts in pvp I probably wont care since I often miss out on relic/adrenal boosts on my sent simply because of the sheer amount of keybinds I use.

Edited June 20, 2012 by gofortheko

[Vember]

As a Sith warrior i cant wait for macros, i really need to remove intervine from my keybindings and consolidate it with charge with a mouseover that changes depending if the target is friendly or hostile. and of course i want to add a retaliation after some of my attacks without the need to smash it all the time but more importantly i want to be able to macro to target an oponent and guard HES current target while taunting him at the same time

 

Man, how lazy can you be? This is a perfect example of why macros aren't needed.

[matslarson]

As a Sith warrior i cant wait for macros, i really need to remove intervine from my keybindings and consolidate it with charge with a mouseover that changes depending if the target is friendly or hostile. and of course i want to add a retaliation after some of my attacks without the need to smash it all the time but more importantly i want to be able to macro to target an oponent and guard HES current target while taunting him at the same time

 

Man, how lazy can you be? This is a perfect example of why macros aren't needed.

 

This is also a perfect example of how macros take away an element of skill. It requires greater awareness and reflexes to recognize when Retaliation/Riposte is able to be used and press the key than it does to simply bind it to the end of all your attacks and watch it use itself whenever possible. As for acquiring your target's target, there is already an available keybind that allows this, and focus targets allow you to maintain targeting on both at once.

[Blagaah]

This is also a perfect example of how macros take away an element of skill. It requires greater awareness and reflexes to recognize when Retaliation/Riposte is able to be used and press the key than it does to simply bind it to the end of all your attacks and watch it use itself whenever possible. As for acquiring your target's target, there is already an available keybind that allows this, and focus targets allow you to maintain targeting on both at once.

 

Agreed 100%. These kind of macros are NOT needed. But, as I've said several times, there is a middle ground. Allowing some kind of basic macro system doesn't have to allow these lets those of us who DO use macros responsibly to have our cake, while those of you who cry 'You got macro in my peanut butter' to feel secure in your finger dexterity. As for the person saying having macros in game would make people who spend money on fancy keyboards and mice look like morons, well, that's just silly. If that was the case, everyone that uses a naga for any game that has macros would fall into that classification. I don't know about you, but I enjoy a well made and feature rich keyboard and mouse no matter what the capabilities of the software I'm using it with are.

[beliglath]

This is also a perfect example of how macros take away an element of skill. It requires greater awareness and reflexes to recognize when Retaliation/Riposte is able to be used and press the key than it does to simply bind it to the end of all your attacks and watch it use itself whenever possible. As for acquiring your target's target, there is already an available keybind that allows this, and focus targets allow you to maintain targeting on both at once.

 

First things first, i said some of my attacks not all of them, there is a reason for that. Second, skill is about to know what to use and how to use in the right time not over clicking but hey, thats skill for me, i know about target of target i know how to focus and i know how to do all this stuff without the need of macros, macros are there to do your life easier, the fact that i need to target the target of my target in order to guard him is annoying and takes away at least 1 second wich i could use to press another thing.

 

Currently its annoying to have to click on an ally use intercede guard him and then taunt his attacker. with macros i could simply taunt attacker + guard my ally and then use a mouseover macro to intercede him while i keep attacking his attacker. also as a warrior i NEED to remove some suff from my bars cuz i have way too many binds and i need to free some slots.

 

If you feel you are in a disadvantage cuz you dont know how to script i can tell you that most games that allow macros usually have a post on their forums (stickied) with the most common and usefull macros.

[LeggoMyMuoio]

I'd like a couple macros simply for clearing up space on my bars. As it is, there's really no way to have a minimalist UI in this game. In WoW, I would use the same button for up to 3 different abilities by using a modifier (shift, ctrl, alt). While I can still get this functionality, it takes up 2 extra slots.

 

It'd also be nice to be able to lump my cooldowns into one button. When solo assaulting a node, I'll pop my shield, my 15% self heal, my 25% crit boost, and my relic all at the same time. None of these are on the global cooldown, all have short enough cooldowns that if one of them is ready, it's likely all of them are, but I have to waste 4 slots for them all.

 

I KNOW what I want to do, and really I could just keybind them to F9-12 or the number pad and faceroll it when I want to pop them all (or even create a macro with my mouse software), so it has nothing to do with taking away skill, just making life a little more convenient.

 

I'd also like a couple fun chat macros as well, like saying a random quote or something, but that's less important

[Pylos]

I'd like a couple macros simply for clearing up space on my bars. As it is, there's really no way to have a minimalist UI in this game. In WoW, I would use the same button for up to 3 different abilities by using a modifier (shift, ctrl, alt). While I can still get this functionality, it takes up 2 extra slots.

 

Thats the problem. This isnt WoW. As much as people say they are not comparing it to WoW, they always seem to refer back to it a whole lot.

 

As for macros, lets all become less lazy. I understand it would improve gameplay, but I like the fact that the game can get as intense as a console game, much more challenging:)

Edited June 25, 2012 by Pylos

[Scotland]

First things first, i said some of my attacks not all of them, there is a reason for that. Second, skill is about to know what to use and how to use in the right time not over clicking but hey, thats skill for me, i know about target of target i know how to focus and i know how to do all this stuff without the need of macros, macros are there to do your life easier, the fact that i need to target the target of my target in order to guard him is annoying and takes away at least 1 second wich i could use to press another thing.

 

Currently its annoying to have to click on an ally use intercede guard him and then taunt his attacker. with macros i could simply taunt attacker + guard my ally and then use a mouseover macro to intercede him while i keep attacking his attacker. also as a warrior i NEED to remove some suff from my bars cuz i have way too many binds and i need to free some slots.

 

If you feel you are in a disadvantage cuz you dont know how to script i can tell you that most games that allow macros usually have a post on their forums (stickied) with the most common and usefull macros.

 

lol, u sound bad.

[TapSumBatt]

Im completely fine without macros, add arena though.

 

No macros = equal for everyone. I have no problem with this, as long as it's fair.

[ZDProletariat]

In reading the OPs post, I was waiting for the arguments pro-macros. I waited through his overly long and wordy essay on how players from WoW enjoy playing with functions they are used to using in WoW. Then at the end I realized that was the point of the thread. No argument outlining the necessity of macros being added in the game, just a long way of saying he wants to use macros because he used them in WoW.

A bit disappointed.