It's a legal principle called "Fruit of the Poisoned Tree".

Agreed 100%. These kind of macros are NOT needed. But, as I've said several times, there is a middle ground. Allowing some kind of basic macro system doesn't have to allow these lets those of us who DO use macros responsibly to have our cake, while those of you who cry 'You got macro in my peanut butter' to feel secure in your finger dexterity. As for the person saying having macros in game would make people who spend money on fancy keyboards and mice look like morons, well, that's just silly. If that was the case, everyone that uses a naga for any game that has macros would fall into that classification. I don't know about you, but I enjoy a well made and feature rich keyboard and mouse no matter what the capabilities of the software I'm using it with are.

Because the conversation is about macros and whether they ruin the game or not. It /is/ possible to draw on previous experience in order to draw conclusions about what you're dealing with now.

@matslarson Use another game then. Tell me about the horrors of WoW or the overly complex timing required my FFXI, or the system used in EQ1/2....come on man, you don't have to limit yourself to SWTOR.

Not arguing for anything more complex then say button paging or /chat commands, mate. You are correct that nothing exists in a perfect vacuum. The comments weren't even meant to say that if macros were enabled and you chose not to use them that they would have no impact on your game. They would, b/c the person you're competing against would have at least a perceived advantage. My main point is that 1) there is a middle ground between OMG PROGRAMMERS WIN! and 'Wow, all these bars and buttons all over the place sure do look ugly, I'd love to be able to collapse them down to save some space." You're still talking theoretical though. Tell me some time you had your butt handed to you by someone using macros that you chose not to use? Give me a real world example of the things you're afraid of or concerned would ruin the game. Don't keep telling me that macros mask a lack of skill (in which case it really doesn't, it's just a different path to get to the same point) or that they offend you because you rely on pure finger agility to maximize your toon. Remove your emotional response and use logic and fact to dispute me. As for the ToS violations, well, anyone that does that should get banned. ToS violation is ToS violation, regardless of if you think you SHOULD be able to do something.

@matslarson Thanks for taking that one sentence out of context. Let me ask you, if I log in, run a few space missions, then do a class quest or two and log out, have I had an impact on anyone else's gameplay? There are portions of this game that effect others; auctions, Ops, Flashpoints, farming if I get to a node that you are also running towards first (who farms in SWTOR really? That's what companions are for), chat, pvp, and possibly questing (though I have yet to run into a place where I can't get enough mobs to kill because someone else is there killing them.) So yes, there are lots of things that effect others, but if you'd read my entire post, you'd see that I was limiting the examples I gave there to make a point about macros and not worrying about the way in which people that YOU PERSONALLY don't play with play this game. The thrust of my comment was to illustrate that a lot of what we do in game relies on the individual player to make choices as to how they play and given that we (the player base) aren't clones not everyone is going to chose the same play style. However, unless you can, as I asked for previously, give me solid and concrete evidence (specifics please) that isn't simply rooted in how the idea of something you disagree with makes you feel, you're simply making emotional statements. Again, I challenge anyone who hasn't taken the time to learn their class to be as effective a person who has, macros or no.

See, here's where I disagree with the easy vs skilled debate: If you do your research and learn/practice the proper skills you ARE a better player. macros will never allow someone to approach the skill level of someone who sounds as devoted to their own performance as you are. I don't care how good your programming skills are, being able to move away from bad, being able to face the correct direction, having a sense of timing and knowing how to handle mob abilities, these things are the hallmark of a skilled and competent player. I cannot wrap my brain around WHY you care if someone else uses something you feel is 'easy mode'. Unless we're grouped together, or competing for an ops spot NOTHING I do while playing effects you. There are a TON of games that have varying levels of difficulty. A lot of them rely on the person playing it to pick the level of challenge they want. Other then an emotional distaste for 'easy mode' in your MMO, do you have any logical, factual evidence (let's get specific in detail here) that demonstrates macros ruin the game? What have you seen that causes you to believe this? When was the last time you saw someone in a game that supports macros really be a top performer when they program their character instead of play it?

I get it. I really do. As a person who spends /way/ too much time with spreadsheets and math in order to min/max a toon I respect and appreciate anyone who is willing to devote that much time to learning how to be the absolute best. I would like to point out that there is a vast difference in a macro that will allow you to spam one button repeatedly to do everything in exactly the right order at exactly the right time, (Vanilla WoW warlocks come to mind here....very boring and utterly NOT the way any game should be played), and a macro that will either type a commonly used phrase (/ops ADDS!) or save you a few buttons on your bars (one button that contains four abilities but only uses one of them depending on whether you're holding a modifier or not....e.g One button that is both slash and cyclone slash that simply changed depending on whether I hold down shift or not....ie Button Paging) I don't think anybody who is honestly into PLAYING this game would want to simply spam auto follow and afk. That's, once again, a huge waste of money. I will reiterate however that a middle ground between the two extremes is viable and if limited properly (1 key press per action, no /wait commands, no cast sequencing, etc, etc...) The entire debate feels as if people are reacting to the absolute worst possible use of a macro system without being willing to ever consider something less..... ab-usable.

Yeah.....cause that's actually playing the game. Jesus, dude......what made you so cynical? Also, complexity simply for complexities sake is bad. There are a myriad ways to differentiate an unskilled player from a skilled one (notice the lack of judgement in the words there.) The entire /point/ on a massively multiplayer game is to appeal to a wide variety of skills and player levels. It is NOT to allow you to point at someone and deride them or make them feel bad for lacking your ability, or even your play style. The attitude that any game should be made complex simply to exclude people (for whatever reason) is wrong. Would it not be better for the community as a whole if you took what you say as a 'bad' player and tried to help them improve themselves? Doesn't that give you a larger potential pool of people to pull from for ops and flashpoints? Oh, wait, I forgot, they're 'bads', so who really cares. They don't deserve to play. P.S. I agree that anyone who would BOT (what you're describing when you're trying to talk about macros) shouldn't be playing b/c they aren't really doing anything but wasting $15 a month. Personally, I pay to play, not watch a movie. That's what Netflix is for. And at half the price.

Here's the only thing I'd use macros for: Button paging. It simply saves screen space. Example from how I have my WoW macros set; I use One 12 button bar, but I write the macro so that when I hold, say, SHIFT, the two buttons under my thumb switch from single target to AoE moves. I know I can simply bind all four bars to base, then 3 bars with ctrl, alt, and shift (one each) but that takes up a HUGE amount of screen space. I totally get the arguments of having several abilities tied to one macro, and cast sequence macros can also be a bit unbalancing if they aren't implemented correctly. However, there is a qualitiy of life compromise between 100% NO and anything goes.