In response to all the "choices don't matter" [SPOILERS]

[CloudCastle]

One of my story line hole complaints about chapter 16 is that my main character is a full ls jedi Shadow. Qyzen is longest companion (and the only one from the originals he's gotten back so far). You might think that the two of them would have some sort of interaction in the penultimate fight or the lead up to it. Nope. Not really. Let alone any of the other 738 companions the Outlander has acquired so far.

 

Agreed. I deeply miss being able to choose what companion I take with me for a fight. I understand that some of the scenes in KOTFE might require certain companions, but all of them? When I heard that KOTFE was going to be "companion centric" I got excited, thinking that, while the story might be the same, BW was going to vary it up by letting our old companions have a say again. Even if the story was exactly the same, at least I could see what my old companions had to say about things! I envisioned us scouring the galaxy searching for them fairly early on, so that as the story progressed, they'd be able to participate.

[Costello]

We as a community keep mentioning the Koth Gravestone Choice as the big choice that mattered in Kotfe, it has a long term effect, however thinking about it I don't think we can claim that was our choice. My main is lightside sith who didn't blow the capital up so I haven't really thought about it much but lets take a look at the actual choice.

 

There you are standing in the tower a finger on the button, to set off the second set of bombs do you do it. What is going through your mind, yes inncoents may die but this is war and your first loyalty you only loyalty is to the troops under your command. Setting off those bombs will maximize the destruction, sow chaos and fear and will help to keep your troops alive, it will remind Arcann you are a power to be reckoned with and teach him not to wipe out sky ports. It will save the lives of your people so you make the big choice the tough choice to push the button (or lead Ms Slaphead do it).

 

It wasn't an easy choice, it may haunt you for the rest of your life but it was the right choice and thats why your the commander to make those tough choices. So what is the result of your choice ..... A slightly different cut scene and more influence with Ms Slaphead (worth 3 gifts). That is it. No change in the war no change in Arcann or skytroopers or the eternal fleet, your choice had no real difference to not pushing the button.... You hate yourself for making the tough call and it was all for nothing.

 

But wait you get back to the base and Koth makes a choice to quit the alliance and go rogue...That in case anyone is wondering is his choice, yours was in relation bombs on Zakuul, he wasn't even objecting at the time, you made a hard call to keep him and his crew alive. Its his choice to leave, equally its his choice to come back and steal the Gravestone, at no point do you choose to have him steal it. These are his choices not yours, now if you chose to shoot him in the back as he walked away that would be a choice and it would be a good choice cause it would have stopped him stealing your ship.

 

So lets not say your choice made at the end of chapter 10 had any impact, the impact was that Koth didn't like something you did and he chose to leave. Your choice had the exact same outcome as not pushing the button as far as the war and the story went.

Edited August 10, 2016 by Costello

[Chessack]

You know... I think I am glad most of the choices don't matter, because throughout the entire KOTFE storyline, I have been faced with 2-3 options in convo dialogues that my 100% perfect lightside uber-good Jedi Consular who follows all the Jedi rules to a 'T' and never breaks them -- she would not make any of those choices.

 

Just to give an example, at one point in Chapter 16 you are given 3 convo options with Scorpio. The choices are (1) lie to her and pretend to be friends, (2) threaten to take the throne from her and sit on it yourself, or (3) threaten to kill her. Now, my perfect little angel Consular would not make any of those choices. As a Jedi, she does not lie. She tells the truth -- always. I have not once taken a "[LIE]" convo option with this character. However, she also has no interest in ruling an empire and would not ever threaten to take a throne from someone, because again, as a Jedi, ruling things is not her interest and she would not ever sit on a throne. Depose someone and let another take it maybe, but that option is not provided. The third option, threatening to kill someone, she wouldn't do that either, at least not in an aggressive way. In the end, I was stuck with threatening to kill her because at least it was honest as in, if you don't back down I will have to kill you (although the lines of dialogue do not reflect that tone). But NONE of those choices is appropriate for my Jedi.

 

I did not feel this way in the pre-KOTFE content -- all of it provided me with something my pure-light angelic Jedi would have done, and I could pick easily from among the options. Not so in many parts of this chapter, and frequently not so in much of KOTFE.

 

So to me the problem hasn't been that choices don't seem to matter much, but that even if they did, the options they give my character are not appropriate to her personality at all, and I am not provided with the option she would actually choose, or anything remotely like it. And again this has not really been the case for me with this or any other character, light, dark or grey, in any other story content in the game.

 

In KOTFE, I feel like they wrote a single story for grey-side characters, and that the only options they give you, the only choices, are really between one grey-side choice and another. They are frankly very heavy-handed in this some of the time, especially in the chapter when you commune with Satele. Over and over again I wanted to REJECT the grey-side teaching they are forcing on you, because my character is a maxed out +10,000 light side Jedi who whole-heartedly believes in the Jedi Code, the Jedi Way, and all the principles the Jedi have always taught. And here we have a storyline -- in STAR WARS for crying out loud -- that does not accommodate a full-on Jedi adherent. Instead, the game pretty much forces you to accept that the 'middle of the road' grey side option is 'better' than light or dark. They keep telling you that you have to 'transcend' the Jedi Way and I kept wanting my character to be able to say no, the Jedi Way is right, and I don't need your grey-side teaching, I can solve this problem like every other problem I have for 65 levels by just following the teachings of the Code. But they don't let you do that.

 

The entire storyline is so completely and totally out of character for my Jedi Consular that if I were RPing her in my old RPing guild (I don't have a guild anymore), I'd have to RP that she died or something because there is no freaking way she would do most of what they have her doing in this story. Which is why to me, maybe it's better that choices don't really matter... otherwise I'd have had to pick something I don't think my character would do, and live with the consequences. At least this way, she says words she shouldn't say, but at least there aren't any consequences.

[SFDebris]

So lets not say your choice made at the end of chapter 10 had any impact, the impact was that Koth didn't like something you did and he chose to leave. Your choice had the exact same outcome as not pushing the button as far as the war and the story went.

 

Yeah, that's why I've been saying that KOTFE is one long chain of humiliations. Choices matter, but only the NPC's choices, your choices actually don't. Koth takes off with the Gravestone because of your choice, but why wasn't the reverse decision having any impact? Why didn't Arcann have the extra resources in that final battle to have someone important kidnapped by Valyn because you chose NOT to set the bombs off (your romantic interest, or if they're not here, Lana and Theron, and end with the knowledge that Valyn's having them tortured)? Because the first shows "If you fight this war hard, you'll make enemies" and the second would show "if you fight the war soft, people you care about will suffer". That shows that YOUR choice mattered. This doesn't, this shows the NPC's choice matters, because it's only about how they acted, not about how you acted.

 

And if you're saying "But having them kidnapped and being tortured is a horrible way to end the season," congratulations, you get why people are upset.

 

I'm betting we will likely see another choice matter related to the Mandalorians. If you make the Dark Side choice, it'll bite you in the butt either by hurting you or not helping you, while the Light Side choice will not have your choice lead to them causing anything negative, they won't start causing serious problems to hurt the war effort, aid the Eternal Empire, or anything else. Prove me wrong Bioware, please prove me wrong, because right now I'm really tired of this one dimensional approach.

[Chessack]

this shows the NPC's choice matters, because it's only about how they acted, not about how you acted.

 

I discussed this at length on one of the choice threads, but I'll just toss it in here as well -- you're right, it's about how NPCs acted. Here's the reason: Arcann, not the player character, is the protagonist of KOTFE. That's why none of your choices actually matter. Arcann makes all the important choices, and suffers the consequences of those choices. You don't really suffer any consequences, because you're the antagonist, not the protagonist.

 

This is the fundamental problem with the entire approach BW took to KOTFE. They decided to make the NPCs the main characters and your character an also-ran. It's pretty much the most basic n00b error that first-time GMs make in table-top -- to make the NPCs more important than the player characters. Which shows you either the nimrods writing this story have no GMing experience, or else they were the nightmare bad GMs nobody sane ever wanted to run their game sessions.

[BrotherJohn]

You will be disappointed at the end of the next "season." Choices cannot matter in any meaningful way as there is only one story line. At most it will make minor fluff differences.

 

And this story line doesn't end. After next season we'll still not have many, if any, of the obvious plot holes answered nor will there be any meaningful resolution. It doesn't end, this is the future of the game.

 

Oh and it's not an expansion, it's content update.

 

agreed

[Jamtas]

until they develop branches in the story dependent on what you have done, choices don't matter.

[XiamaraSimi]

Multiple hilarious chapter points

 

Im with you sister, my mara just wants to throw up her hands and let the others play Forrest Gump while shes goes looking for Quinn...

[Costello]

I discussed this at length on one of the choice threads, but I'll just toss it in here as well -- you're right, it's about how NPCs acted. Here's the reason: Arcann, not the player character, is the protagonist of KOTFE. That's why none of your choices actually matter. Arcann makes all the important choices, and suffers the consequences of those choices. You don't really suffer any consequences, because you're the antagonist, not the protagonist.

 

This is the fundamental problem with the entire approach BW took to KOTFE. They decided to make the NPCs the main characters and your character an also-ran. It's pretty much the most basic n00b error that first-time GMs make in table-top -- to make the NPCs more important than the player characters. Which shows you either the nimrods writing this story have no GMing experience, or else they were the nightmare bad GMs nobody sane ever wanted to run their game sessions.

 

This is true, Arcann is now immortal and the protagonist of the story.

 

I also explained this else where, but in short you couldn't kill him at the end of chapter 16 means you can't kill him. WHAT am I crazy you can't kill him now Of course you can't, the place for him to die was chapter 16 now if you take a chapter out of season 2 and kill him everyone will be left wondering what a mass anti-climatic event, he lived through the season final only to be a bit part kill in one of the chapter. Not to mention the waste of resources in devoting a chapter to doing something you failed to do twice in chapter 16 and twice in chapter 8. It gets even worse if he gets a off screen kill and you get an e-mail saying how Vaylin found him and killed him. You mean he survived to attempts to kill him only to have him die anyway and the creative team robbed the chapter 16 final of this!

 

So where does this leave Arcann, low and behold its his redemption story. He is the chosen one, he fell to the darkside (though despite having a dark vs light event Zakuul doesn't do dark vs light) and now is going to be redeemed by his love for his mother. He possibly slew the Sith Emperor (or at least helped kill him, he was after all fighting him when you stabbed the Emperor in the back like the noble Jedi you are) so he is the hero and he is going to be redeemed. Where as the alliance commander is a nobody. I also suspect someone on the writing team has a crush on Arcann and is pushing for him to have his own story without even having the Outlander involved.

 

And oddly what I didn't realize is that this story and to play old content has cost people 150 bucks in subscriptions. 150 bucks to watch the Arcann story.

[Ylliarus]

This is true, Arcann is now immortal and the protagonist of the story.

 

I also explained this else where, but in short you couldn't kill him at the end of chapter 16 means you can't kill him. WHAT am I crazy you can't kill him now Of course you can't, the place for him to die was chapter 16 now if you take a chapter out of season 2 and kill him everyone will be left wondering what a mass anti-climatic event, he lived through the season final only to be a bit part kill in one of the chapter. Not to mention the waste of resources in devoting a chapter to doing something you failed to do twice in chapter 16 and twice in chapter 8. It gets even worse if he gets a off screen kill and you get an e-mail saying how Vaylin found him and killed him. You mean he survived to attempts to kill him only to have him die anyway and the creative team robbed the chapter 16 final of this!

 

So where does this leave Arcann, low and behold its his redemption story. He is the chosen one, he fell to the darkside (though despite having a dark vs light event Zakuul doesn't do dark vs light) and now is going to be redeemed by his love for his mother. He possibly slew the Sith Emperor (or at least helped kill him, he was after all fighting him when you stabbed the Emperor in the back like the noble Jedi you are) so he is the hero and he is going to be redeemed. Where as the alliance commander is a nobody. I also suspect someone on the writing team has a crush on Arcann and is pushing for him to have his own story without even having the Outlander involved.

 

And oddly what I didn't realize is that this story and to play old content has cost people 150 bucks in subscriptions. 150 bucks to watch the Arcann story.

 

I will agree with you on that. I get that the expansion was about Arcann but if they made this an Arcann story arc they should have wrapped it up by letting us have the option to actually kill him.

 

As to the other posts I have been reading here, as much as I had enjoyed KotFE I am seeing that valid arguments have been raised in this thread. I believe Bioware marketed the "choices matter" too much in regards to how much they actually mattered. I will repeat what I said, you can't say the choices didn't matter at all. They didn't matter enough (as certain actions indeed should have had a far bigger impact on the story than they had), so what I really hope is that the people at Bioware will read the forums and make notes for Knights of the Eternal Throne.

[unibim]

But choices did matter.

Its either you have Gravestone at the end, or not.

 

 

Unless bioware will send a mail from Koth saying "Hey, sry commander, i put it back on odessen, i just couldnt ignore bad guys in the galaxy. oh and i wont return. see ya."

 

[Ylliarus]

But choices did matter.

Its either you have Gravestone at the end, or not.

 

 

Unless bioware will send a mail from Koth saying "Hey, sry commander, i put it back on odessen, i just couldnt ignore bad guys in the galaxy. oh and i wont return. see ya."

 

I believe this player has elaborated quite well how your actions didn't have that much of an impact as they should. Yes they had an influence, but in the end it was the NPC that made the choice not you. You as the Commander of the Alliance could do quite little about it.

 

We as a community keep mentioning the Koth Gravestone Choice as the big choice that mattered in Kotfe, it has a long term effect, however thinking about it I don't think we can claim that was our choice. My main is lightside sith who didn't blow the capital up so I haven't really thought about it much but lets take a look at the actual choice.

 

There you are standing in the tower a finger on the button, to set off the second set of bombs do you do it. What is going through your mind, yes inncoents may die but this is war and your first loyalty you only loyalty is to the troops under your command. Setting off those bombs will maximize the destruction, sow chaos and fear and will help to keep your troops alive, it will remind Arcann you are a power to be reckoned with and teach him not to wipe out sky ports. It will save the lives of your people so you make the big choice the tough choice to push the button (or lead Ms Slaphead do it).

 

It wasn't an easy choice, it may haunt you for the rest of your life but it was the right choice and thats why your the commander to make those tough choices. So what is the result of your choice ..... A slightly different cut scene and more influence with Ms Slaphead (worth 3 gifts). That is it. No change in the war no change in Arcann or skytroopers or the eternal fleet, your choice had no real difference to not pushing the button.... You hate yourself for making the tough call and it was all for nothing.

 

But wait you get back to the base and Koth makes a choice to quit the alliance and go rogue...That in case anyone is wondering is his choice, yours was in relation bombs on Zakuul, he wasn't even objecting at the time, you made a hard call to keep him and his crew alive. Its his choice to leave, equally its his choice to come back and steal the Gravestone, at no point do you choose to have him steal it. These are his choices not yours, now if you chose to shoot him in the back as he walked away that would be a choice and it would be a good choice cause it would have stopped him stealing your ship.

 

So lets not say your choice made at the end of chapter 10 had any impact, the impact was that Koth didn't like something you did and he chose to leave. Your choice had the exact same outcome as not pushing the button as far as the war and the story went.

[Haruen]

And it doesn't help that almost every single chapter has been like this dangling carrot to get snatched away at the end (or in the next chapter). Think about it.....pretty much every "game-changing" thing we get promised has either been taken away, not used, botched, and/or failed in some way:

 

Chapter 10: We get the schematics to the Spire. If we ever want to invade, this is the automatic win! We can use this to take over! (See ch 12)

Chapter 11: Yay! We get Havok Squad and a team of local guerilla-fighters-in-training! (see ch 12 again)

Chapter 12: Okay, now we get to use everything we got in ch 10 and 11 to shut down the Eternal Fleet! But wait....you have to go out to the woods and commune with the Emperor first! Don't worry, we'll wait....since this is THE MOST IMPORTANT mission so far! Oops...sorry, we lied, we did it without you....and failed. Whoops! And Havok Squad is dead (and possibly one of the companions you just got). Oh, but you got a nifty new weapon that's going to make the difference in the fight against Arcann and an introduction to the Grey Side of the Force (you're not a Force-user? That's okay, just roll with it)

Chapter 13: Ooo...now we get to rob Arcann blind and steal his entire treasury! Okay...that's done. What are we going to do with all this money?! Forget we have it, I guess....

Chapter 14: Let's go join the Mandalorians and steal the GEMINI Prime! We can take over the fleet with her! It will be awesome!

Chapter 15: Erm....well, we went through all that and SCORPIO just trolls us and takes over. Seriously!? All that work and not only are we empty-handed, we're worse off than we started?!

Chapter 16: Okay...this is it...the Battle Royale! Arcann's going DOWN! Or....not. His mom saved him even though I tried to kill him....twice....and this nifty new weapon didn't do much compared to the Wonder Woman Shield of Invincibility I found just lying on the floor.

Soooo.....I went through 16 chapters of missions, acquiring companions, weapons, money, resources, etc....and I'm pretty much back to square one, just with a different set of despots on the throne. *facepalm* Screw the Alliance, I'm going to go look for my still-lost husband(s) and retire to Dantooine.

 

 

Quoted for accuracy. This is the problem with the whole damn thing. Nothing you did along the way mattered. You didn't kill your primary foe. Which is something you've actually never done, unless you want to count Revan as a win. =/

[Chessack]

. I believe Bioware marketed the "choices matter" too much in regards to how much they actually mattered. I will repeat what I said, you can't say the choices didn't matter at all. They didn't matter enough (as certain actions indeed should have had a far bigger impact on the story than they had)

 

This is the key. They hyped 'choices matter' to the stars, but then they only mattered a little bit here and there, and paled in comparison to the consequences of Arcann's choices. Which is why I say he, not your character, is the protagonist.

 

If they had just said KOTFE was a good strong story about V's family, and that it was linear and non-branching -- well, a lot less people would have been interested but at least it would have been honest.

 

I'm not sure people are really angry that choices didn't matter much per se, but rather, they're angry that BW claimed choices would matter more than ever, more than in the main game, in this expansion... and they mattered FAR less.

[Sportiva]

I'd just like to point out that the only real choice with consequence that was ever presented in SWTOR was the very first one we all made ... which class to play. Based on the 8 options presented to us, we experienced SWTOR in 8 very distinct ways with the further distinction of LS/DS choices & gameplay choices (i.e. 2 advances classes per base class) to create an even more unique experience.

 

But starting with RotHC, player experience dwindled to 2 (Imp & Rep) then 1 experience from Forged Alliances onward.

 

With KotFE, it is even worse in that the story is designed for force users (arguably Jedi Knight & Sith Warriors only) so there is a huge disconnect to the back story and gameplay of non-force using classes. I understand that we'll never see class specific-content ever again, but is it too much to ask that BW at least makes the effort to create content that resonates for all classes?

[Chessack]

I understand that we'll never see class specific-content ever again, but is it too much to ask that BW at least makes the effort to create content that resonates for all classes?

 

The irony of it all is that they managed to make world stories on every planet for both factions which were class-neutral and entirely logical for each and every class to do. Many world stories had light/dark choices and elements of them (though not the main plot) could end in slightly different ways (you give the medicine to the military or give it to the sick kids, etc.). I don't understand why they didn't apply the skills they used in creating, e.g., the Taris world story or the Balmorra world story to making a similarly class-neutral story for KOTFE. It can be done, and they have done it before, and done it well... so this really is not asking too much.

[Nothing_Shines]

Because the people who wrote those stories no longer work at BW Austin. The new crew is clueless.

[Chessack]

Because the people who wrote those stories no longer work at BW Austin. The new crew is clueless.

 

Fair enough.

 

But surely the new crew could have played through the world stories, taken notes, and tried to do something similar.

[Transcendent]

Also, a reminder, Bioware has put an amazing amount of effort, time and money into Knights of the Fallen Empire and us as the players.

 

I'm not going to disparage the work that has been done by BioWare. However I think my expectations are set to a higher bar than those of yourself.

 

Multiple story arcs, multiple endings, different cutscenes, acknowledgement of the different classes and how the story plays out depending on what class is going through the story. Actual choices that have an intrinsic impact on how a season plays out, both during and at the end of the season. That would be an amazing amount of effort.

 

However, I'm not going to disparage the work that has been done. I don't know the size of the teams involved or the amount of overtime they've been forced to do to get the content out, for that I'm appreciative. I do however think and feel that they are doing themselves a disservice by not expanding on what they produce if going "all in" on purely story.

 

Otherwise, I expect to see some meaningful content updates on other areas of the game.

[Ylliarus]

I'd just like to point out that the only real choice with consequence that was ever presented in SWTOR was the very first one we all made ... which class to play. Based on the 8 options presented to us, we experienced SWTOR in 8 very distinct ways with the further distinction of LS/DS choices & gameplay choices (i.e. 2 advances classes per base class) to create an even more unique experience.

 

But starting with RotHC, player experience dwindled to 2 (Imp & Rep) then 1 experience from Forged Alliances onward.

 

With KotFE, it is even worse in that the story is designed for force users (arguably Jedi Knight & Sith Warriors only) so there is a huge disconnect to the back story and gameplay of non-force using classes. I understand that we'll never see class specific-content ever again, but is it too much to ask that BW at least makes the effort to create content that resonates for all classes?

 

I can't deny that I really miss the class specific stories. It is why I keep replaying them because KotFE might have been good, it's not better than the original SWTOR storylines. I get that they wanted to make one story that all players could follow, but they could have expanded that by giving more twists to the storyline based on the class you play. There were so many opportunities for the Sith Inquisitor to, alongside the main storyline, to seek ways to bind Valkorion to you as a Force Walker. For the SIth Warrior there could have been an underlying story arc where he or she sought to understand the Sith Emperor, now Valkorion, better and attempt to become greater than him. The Jedi Knight could have pursued angles to destroy Valkorion while the Jedi Consular could have had a storyline involving the Galactic Republic and gathering support from the Senate through the Rift Alliance or a new group.

 

I really would advocate and love to see Knights of the Eternal Throne to have such deeper nuances. Yes, they can still have one storyline players follow, but still have different experiences and underlaying story arcs based on their class.

 

I'm not going to disparage the work that has been done by BioWare. However I think my expectations are set to a higher bar than those of yourself.

 

I believe that our bar of expectations is set at the same level with what I wrote just above I am just more capable of appreciating what we are given I guess, or at least find what I like in what is there and not what could be

Edited August 11, 2016 by Ylliarus

[AngFour]

You didn't kill your primary foe. Which is something you've actually never done, unless you want to count Revan as a win. =/

 

I wouldn't say we've NEVER killed our primary foe. My Agent quite gleefully killed Hunter. And then joined up with my sister's IA so I could kill Hunter again. I also danced on Hunter's corpse both times

[Mindelmatrix]

From what I see for the most part, choices only matter if there is no follow up to it. Meaning the choice=consequnce is contained in a single game or chapter. Once we get past that, it's clear the writers worry more about creating a scenerio where all choices lead to the one scenerio, rather than create multiple scenerios suited to different choices.

[BlazeTomahawk]

My hope is that KOTET will have 2 major plot lines, based on whether or not you have the Gravestone. It's the one HUGE difference in stories. Later, I hope those 2 stories each split, based on you acceptance of Valkoriand power. That would give 4 distinct overall stories and (I think) make most of us happy

[BlueShiftRecall]

For me I really want whether we chose to take or not take Valkorian's power to matter in KOTET. Maybe taking it will mean he takes you over at a major time and makes a decision for you that's then out of your control. Eg: you have to make a decision about whether to save X or not, saving X puts you in danger so if you used Valkorian's power he takes you over and doesn't let you save them whereas if you haven't used his power at all you can save X despite him telling you not to. Edited August 26, 2016 by BlueShiftRecall

[Chessack]

My hope is that KOTET will have 2 major plot lines, based on whether or not you have the Gravestone. It's the one HUGE difference in stories. Later, I hope those 2 stories each split, based on you acceptance of Valkoriand power. That would give 4 distinct overall stories and (I think) make most of us happy

 

I would like that too, but I don't see it happening. BW has pretty clearly decided to do ONE story and everything you do leads into their plot regardless.