Buff SM operations

[gabigool]

Are you serious? On TRE I was in a pug that couldnt beat the tanks on EC SM!! Thats how bad the new players are.

 

I was in a pug last night that struggled on Gharj. I do not think you tune endgame group content to these people. these people need to tune themselves to the content.

 

Regardless, not sure what you took issue with in the post you quoted from, as I believe as written the instance would be easier.

[DieAlteHexe]

I think there are two schools of thought.

 

One group of people think everything is fine, and that SM content should have no real difficulty. No possible way to wipe, and it's for people who are just here to see the sights and experience it. People liken it to LFR.

 

The other school of thought is that SM content should have some educational value and act as a useful stepping stone into more difficult levels of content.

 

The problem, as I see it, is that group number 1 would be correct if this were WoW, where there are multiple levels of difficulty. Swtor has provided us with (in the last expansion) two. And they've stated any future ops (lol) content will not have NM mode.

 

SM content has to be both.

 

Guilds. Training for the harder content. I think that's as it should be. There are solo/duo folks. There are folks for whom a more dedicated approach is preferred. The way I see it, as things stand both are covered. Since "death" is pretty much meaningless, there's not the onus of screwing up in HM that there might've been in days gone by.

 

It's good as is, I feel.

[gabigool]

Guilds. Training for the harder content. I think that's as it should be. There are solo/duo folks. There are folks for whom a more dedicated approach is preferred. The way I see it, as things stand both are covered. Since "death" is pretty much meaningless, there's not the onus of screwing up in HM that there might've been in days gone by.

 

It's good as is, I feel.

 

I imagine you are seeing it solely from the point of view of someone with little or no interest in harder content.

 

If you spent any time doing it, you would notice that it is about as far from covered as it could possibly be, and it is more noticeable now than at any point in the history of this game.

 

If you look at it from both perspectives, it seems reasonable to think that the content can be both easy and educational at the same time.

 

I guess it just seems strange to me that people doing group play are so desperate to cling to their right to not want to know how to do it. Personally, I don't relish wasting other people's time.

 

This game is not built in such a way that LFR is enough. LFR is fine in other games. It doesn't work when it's one of only two modes. I mean, sure, it works fine for the people only looking for LFR. But there are other players here.

[xkcurtisx]

Yes you do, I've done most of the HM FP without looking at SM during 1.0. Finished NIM SnV with a pug group and I've never touched HM before. Most of the SM mech really matters little when you are running HM, they could be learned easily if you have the time and effort for HM.

 

But SM is not for people to learn to swim, it's just designed for people to have some fun in water with all the lifebelt allowed. It was designed BECAUSE many of these people don't want to learn how to swim and the park still need them to have fun. Trying to buff it just to set it up for HM, is simply contradicting its basic purpose.

 

you forgot to mention that you did nim SAV while ignoring all mechanics 10 levels above and 6 gear tiers higher.

[KevinQCowart]

If you hardcore raiders have your HM/NiM why do you give two craps about SM? Can the people who have lifes enjoy the content too? are you so petty that you cant stand for casuals to step foot in your sacred operations?

 

This ole boys club attitude is why so few people do operations and why Bioware decided it wasnt a good financal investment for new ops.

 

Truth is the old SM Rav/ToS was overtuned the average player doesnt have enough time to invest in that kind of headache.

[DieAlteHexe]

I imagine you are seeing it solely from the point of view of someone with little or no interest in harder content.

 

If you spent any time doing it, you would notice that it is about as far from covered as it could possibly be, and it is more noticeable now than at any point in the history of this game.

 

If you look at it from both perspectives, it seems reasonable to think that the content can be both easy and educational at the same time.

 

I guess it just seems strange to me that people doing group play are so desperate to cling to their right to not want to know how to do it. Personally, I don't relish wasting other people's time.

 

This game is not built in such a way that LFR is enough. LFR is fine in other games. It doesn't work when it's one of only two modes. I mean, sure, it works fine for the people only looking for LFR. But there are other players here.

 

It's the first sunny day in weeks. I'm in a wonderful mood. I'm not in the mood to keep repeating myself.

 

Game is fine, as is. There's content for those who don't want much aside from story mode, there's content for mid-range and there's content for hard-core. I say leave it basically as is.

 

IMHO, YMMV and now I'm going to investigate that orange thing in the sky.

 

P.S. I highly doubt any changes are forthcoming aside from tweaks here and there. Pretty sure EA/BW have their metrics to ponder and will adjust as necessary.

 

Carpe Diem.

[UberSamoyed]

IMHO....Sm Ops should serve as a stepping stone to Hm ops, with less intensive but identical mechanics. As is, some of the more important HM mechanics are missing altogether. In an ideal world, one should be able to progress through SM content while soaking up enough information as to make the Hm mechanics less shocking and surprising.

 

But, in reality, I strongly suspect that this would make very little real game impact. There are those who take the game seriously and study up on fights, and those who could care less. A person who feels entitled to show up for a Hm Op undergeared and with little to no understanding of their rotation is not going to soak up any mechanics in Sm. They just don't care....and never will.

 

There was a time in this game when most Hm Ops were significantly comprised of the former group. There was even a decent proportion in Sm Ops. If you wanted to run an Op and not be an anchor, then you had to be prepared: Join a guild, learn the fights, gear up, progress. But, with the new focus on solo story and casuals, there has been a predictable and sizable increase in the proportion of the latter group in almost all Ops. There is even a sub-cult of people who only run EV/KP Hm's. It is the direct result of the direction the game has taken.

 

There's no going back now...and with more and more new players finishing up all solo content and with nothing to do, the size of the latter group will only continue to grow. I don't foresee any changes to the Ops tuning/scaling in the near or distant future, so it is what it is. The only advice I can give to anyone who truly wants to learn and progress is to join a raiding guild and pray our numbers don't continue to dwindle.

 

They will...but "get it while the getting is good." One day you will be the teacher...maybe sooner than expected.

[IanArgent]

I don't actually expect them to change existing Ops. More of what I'd like to see in new group content, if and when...

[DieAlteHexe]

I don't actually expect them to change existing Ops. More of what I'd like to see in new group content, if and when...

 

Ah! My bad, I misunderstood. I like the 3-layers, so to speak. Something for everyone.

 

Would give my eye-teeth to see the metrics.

[Jadescythe]

Ah! My bad, I misunderstood. I like the 3-layers, so to speak. Something for everyone.

 

Would give my eye-teeth to see the metrics.

 

This is where the problem lies. There are only 2 layers now. SM and HM. SM is far too easy for even bad players, but I see how an easy operations mode appeals to a large audience. I don't have a problem with that, but HM then becomes too hard for many players. If HM is the only "real" operation challenge coming out, it won't be tuned to allow for both casual raid groups and hardcore raid groups to enjoy themselves. It will either be too easy and never challenge good players or it will be too hard and won't be cleared by many groups.

 

If you want a sight seeing version of ops, then you have to go back to the 3 tiers of difficulty or else you have to make both SM and HM more difficult to satisfy the groups that actually desire the content.

[VegasTheLost]

If you hardcore raiders have your HM/NiM why do you give two craps about SM? Can the people who have lifes enjoy the content too? are you so petty that you cant stand for casuals to step foot in your sacred operations?

 

This ole boys club attitude is why so few people do operations and why Bioware decided it wasnt a good financal investment for new ops.

 

Truth is the old SM Rav/ToS was overtuned the average player doesnt have enough time to invest in that kind of headache.

 

What a nice person you are.

[DieAlteHexe]

This is where the problem lies. There are only 2 layers now. SM and HM. SM is far too easy for even bad players, but I see how an easy operations mode appeals to a large audience. I don't have a problem with that, but HM then becomes too hard for many players. If HM is the only "real" operation challenge coming out, it won't be tuned to allow for both casual raid groups and hardcore raid groups to enjoy themselves. It will either be too easy and never challenge good players or it will be too hard and won't be cleared by many groups.

 

If you want a sight seeing version of ops, then you have to go back to the 3 tiers of difficulty or else you have to make both SM and HM more difficult to satisfy the groups that actually desire the content.

 

Sorry but there are some folk who find SM just right. "Too easy" is subjective. For you? Most likely. But you cannot (fairly) speak for all. Plus some people (brace yourself) aren't here for the challenge. They like being able to cruise along.

 

As for having 3 tiers? That's fine by me. As it stands, I'm content but I'm not averse to a way that is more inclusive for everyone.

[DieAlteHexe]

What a nice person you are.

 

Makes a point though, albeit in a pretty feisty way.

[TUXs]

Makes a point though, albeit in a pretty feisty way.

Both sides do actually

 

I'm 100% behind you in saying that SM is fine the way it is. I'm thrilled with how many NEW players are finally trying Ops. It's good for the game, it's good for the community and it's good for Bioware.

 

Tuesday I ran a SM ToS with SIX players who hadn't done it before...I loved it!!! I'm thrilled I could help them experience it and I look forward to more and more and more of that!....however...what those six players saw the other night in SM, is nothing compared to what they'll experience in HM...HM is going to be a HUGE wake up call for them. Because I want these people to keep playing, I wish there were a better way to ramp them up for HM...

 

I don't want fewer people able to do SM, so no change there, but I'd like it if more people could do HM...the bridge could absolutely be better than it is.

[Jadescythe]

Sorry but there are some folk who find SM just right. "Too easy" is subjective. For you? Most likely. But you cannot (fairly) speak for all. Plus some people (brace yourself) aren't here for the challenge. They like being able to cruise along.

 

As for having 3 tiers? That's fine by me. As it stands, I'm content but I'm not averse to a way that is more inclusive for everyone.

 

My opinion is not formed merely by my own experience (I don't find any of the content to be terribly difficult currently). I have joined many groups that were doing SM raids just because HM was out of their ability as a group. Contrary to popular belief, not every raid group is on the cutting edge and farming the hardest content. With how long it has been, many groups are still stalled on HM Master/Blaster and Revan. Other groups had those on farm after 1-2 weeks. There is just no middle ground for raiders.

 

I'm fine with SM being how it is, but they took that content away from raiders. It would be like making chapter 13 a HM raid all of the sudden, because everyone should get what they want out of all content, right? Not only that, they put the gear meant for HM into those raids, so many groups had to take some leisurely strolls through them to fill in gaps they were missing. I don't think anyone is complaining about casual players being able to participate and see the operations, but you have to realize, that took the minimal content we had and cut it in half. You only have two options right now and that isn't even coming close to meeting the communty's needs.

 

TL;DR If BW only plans to have 2 modes, then they need to be tuned for lower tiered raiders and higher tiered raiders, not casuals

[Khevar]

I don't want fewer people able to do SM, so no change there, but I'd like it if more people could do HM...the bridge could absolutely be better than it is.

What would think about splitting the operations back into tiers? Both SM and HM

 

Theoretically it could go something like:

 

1. Easier SM ops

2. Harder SM ops

3. Easier HM ops

4. Harder HM ops

5. NM ops

 

With each stage along the way dropping better rewards.

Edited April 28, 2016 by Khevar

[TUXs]

What would think about splitting the operations back into tiers? Both SM and HM

 

Theoretically it could go something like:

 

1. Easier SM ops

2. Harder SM ops

3. Easier HM ops

4. Harder HM ops

5. NM ops

 

With each stage along the way dropping better rewards.

Far too much work to be realistic...but it would be great in theory. Rather than that naming though, call them "tiers"...so Dread Fortress Tier 1 (easy), Tier 2 (medium), Tier 3 (hard), Tier 4 (NiM).

[DieAlteHexe]

Both sides do actually

 

I'm 100% behind you in saying that SM is fine the way it is. I'm thrilled with how many NEW players are finally trying Ops. It's good for the game, it's good for the community and it's good for Bioware.

 

Tuesday I ran a SM ToS with SIX players who hadn't done it before...I loved it!!! I'm thrilled I could help them experience it and I look forward to more and more and more of that!....however...what those six players saw the other night in SM, is nothing compared to what they'll experience in HM...HM is going to be a HUGE wake up call for them. Because I want these people to keep playing, I wish there were a better way to ramp them up for HM...

 

I don't want fewer people able to do SM, so no change there, but I'd like it if more people could do HM...the bridge could absolutely be better than it is.

 

Attempt number two:

 

It's a subjective and elective thing. Some folks have no interest in HM/NiM etc.

 

When I took my old self into my first HM I was promptly mauled. Badly. It was hysterical actual. Reminded me of bein' ganked back in the UO days.

 

What I found was that instead of my "sight-seeing cruise control", I needed to be mindful. Wasn't hard, per se. Just had to learn the mission and make sure I was decked out best as possible. I'm a crappy player. I've no desire to really change that but if I can do HM, it's not that HUGE a difference.

 

Well, not after that first wake-up call anyway.

 

Some of the folks around here moan about how SM will turn everyone into idiots and those idiots will harm them in HM. Well, okay, if someone is ignorant of how a mission/zone/etc. works, there's a couple things that can be done:

 

1. Teach them.

 

2. Don't group up with them (we know you can snoop a character and that will tell you a lot).

 

SM can be "training" sure, but it can also just be "easy mode" and so what? Some folks are perfectly content with "easy-mode" and don't care at all to go further.

 

This HAD better post. Or I shall be grouchy.

[DieAlteHexe]

...TL;DR If BW only plans to have 2 modes, then they need to be tuned for lower tiered raiders and higher tiered raiders, not casuals

 

I think the reality is something that EA/BW knows and I think what we're seeing is "writing" for that reality. Raiders are rarely the majority and, as things have evolved in MMOs in particular, casuals are turning out to be the "bread and butter". There it is, fwiw.

[Slowpokeking]

you forgot to mention that you did nim SAV while ignoring all mechanics 10 levels above and 6 gear tiers higher.

 

You started to play in 4.0 right?

[Slowpokeking]

If there's too big a skill gap between SM and HM+, the HM+ community will die as people don't advance to it.

 

It won't die if you could give the newbies more patience. Even before 4.0, the gap is quite big.

[Slowpokeking]

This is where the problem lies. There are only 2 layers now. SM and HM. SM is far too easy for even bad players, but I see how an easy operations mode appeals to a large audience. I don't have a problem with that, but HM then becomes too hard for many players. If HM is the only "real" operation challenge coming out, it won't be tuned to allow for both casual raid groups and hardcore raid groups to enjoy themselves. It will either be too easy and never challenge good players or it will be too hard and won't be cleared by many groups.

 

If you want a sight seeing version of ops, then you have to go back to the 3 tiers of difficulty or else you have to make both SM and HM more difficult to satisfy the groups that actually desire the content.

 

Just give them time to learn the fights and they will be fine, even before 4.0, SM helps little for HM bosses, you still need to wipe many times to do the bosses well.

[Slowpokeking]

I just don't get it, it's not that hard to do HM without learning SM, yes it's going to be painful in the beginning but it's impossible to avoid. People didn't want to do HM because few groups give them the patience to learn. It's not gonna change with the difficulty of SM.

[TUXs]

Attempt number two:

 

It's a subjective and elective thing. Some folks have no interest in HM/NiM etc.

 

When I took my old self into my first HM I was promptly mauled. Badly. It was hysterical actual. Reminded me of bein' ganked back in the UO days.

 

What I found was that instead of my "sight-seeing cruise control", I needed to be mindful. Wasn't hard, per se. Just had to learn the mission and make sure I was decked out best as possible. I'm a crappy player. I've no desire to really change that but if I can do HM, it's not that HUGE a difference.

 

Well, not after that first wake-up call anyway.

 

Some of the folks around here moan about how SM will turn everyone into idiots and those idiots will harm them in HM. Well, okay, if someone is ignorant of how a mission/zone/etc. works, there's a couple things that can be done:

 

1. Teach them.

 

2. Don't group up with them (we know you can snoop a character and that will tell you a lot).

 

SM can be "training" sure, but it can also just be "easy mode" and so what? Some folks are perfectly content with "easy-mode" and don't care at all to go further.

 

This HAD better post. Or I shall be grouchy.

I don't disagree - I want SM to be readily completable for players of any skill levels.

 

Perhaps a new tier is needed, between SM and HM...I just don't want people to have experiences like you did where they're all gung-ho to join a HM Op because they're SM masters...only to be "mauled" so badly that they never set foot in one again. I would love it if the path to progression were better defined.

[TUXs]

It won't die if you could give the newbies more patience. Even before 4.0, the gap is quite big.

Very good point!!!