Buff SM operations

[Slowpokeking]

Why are people simply ignoring the fact?!!!

 

What was SM/HM difference in 3.0????

 

EV/KP/EC could be overleveled, even in 4.0 the HM EV/KP aren't hard, you just need to have enough DPS on some KP bosses.

 

Some bosses in TFB/SnV HM could be easily done, but some are at a totally different story than SM, such as OP IX, TFB, Cartel Lords and Styrak.

 

As for DF/DP, even if you could easily clear SM, you would find a hard time at Nefra/Bestia in HM, not to say the rest of them, SM and HM are ENTIRELY different levels.

 

No need to continue.

[Khevar]

^^ I can't figure out what it is about this fellow's posts that prompts me to engage.

 

I know any discussions will go nowhere. It's the same drivel he's been saying forever. Nothing I say will make the slightest bit of difference in his warped and skewed view of how operations should be in this game.

 

I should just be relaxed and let it go.

 

But it bugs the hell out of me that someone who:

 

1. Has been complaining about game difficulty for almost 4 years.

2. First got into raiding when he could OVERLEVEL the content by 10 LEVELS.

3. Demanded that NM operations should be "faceroll".

4. Pretends to speak for the majority.

 

Keeps trying to set Bioware policy on how raids should be.

 

Argh. I lost the "don't engage" battle again. If this dude is a troll, he's an incredibly successful one.

Edited April 27, 2016 by Khevar

[Jadescythe]

Why are people simply ignoring the fact?!!!

 

What was SM/HM difference in 3.0????

 

EV/KP/EC could be overleveled, even in 4.0 the HM EV/KP aren't hard, you just need to have enough DPS on some KP bosses.

 

Some bosses in TFB/SnV HM could be easily done, but some are at a totally different story than SM, such as OP IX, TFB, Cartel Lords and Styrak.

 

As for DF/DP, even if you could easily clear SM, you would find a hard time at Nefra/Bestia in HM, not to say the rest of them, SM and HM are ENTIRELY different levels.

 

No need to continue.

 

The old SMs weren't hard, but they included some mechanics that you couldn't bypass unless you were overgeared or overleveled. They also weren't bolstered and weren't meant to be possible to clear 15 levels below max level. Every SM is now a tank and spank, frequently possible with only 1 tank and only requires at least 1 healer to be paying attention and the DPS to know how to spam basic attacks.

[DarthEnrique]

Story mode is easy cause there are many many new players in the game and you dont want to scare them away right with the first operation they do! They are following a trend with making it all easier for a specific reason. You have easier crafting, only Mastery, nerfed operations etc.

 

All this is here to make the NEW people stay. You also gave now guaranteed drops for specific players in the operation to make sure they get "something" if not token. This is all part of a simple plan to keep the game running. So they cannot change it.

 

Overall it is too easy i agree with Curt, you can simply do SM operaitons with 4 ppl like a flashpoint.

 

They failed miserably at that. I have yet to do a SM OPS, the past few times have been not the best experiences I've had.

 

Let me list my problems with a SM OPS I did recently which was the Dread Fortress one that ends the Oricon story (I have literally yet to finish that OPS mission on any toon cause I've had no good experience with it the very first time could not even get a fully formed group and I wasn't the only one trying to finish it this was the first time, the one I'm going to list is the second time.)

1. Problems forming the group for it.

2. Keeping players, most got impatient and left.

3. Got whipped by the Rancor pretty much every time.

4. Because of three lots or people left the group so we had to re-get members.

5. A lot of us were new to ops, myself included.

6. We got someone who knew OPS missions and still got whipped on the Rancor.

7. After we got the experienced OPS person and still couldn't get past the Rancor, we all left cause we once again started losing group members and we just were at this point done cause it wasn't worth continuing.

 

Now I'm fully in 216 gear, with the exception of my lightsaber which is 208, some had a mixture of it, our experienced OPS had 224 gear, still not sure how we kept getting whipped at the Rancor but we did. I think we weren't doing enough damage in time cause it would enrage, something that surprised me was in a SM anything cause SM flashpoints you don't get an enraged, nor with Tatical, just HM... Course I'm not familiar with OPS so they could enrage in SM for all I know.

 

After this experience twice now. I'm very iffy on ever doing another OPS in this game ever again.

 

Also I've tried queuing for this in SM and never got pulled into one so I'm not sure how the queue system works for OPS mission but it doesn't seem to work right or there's just not a lot of people on my server who care to do them.

Edited April 27, 2016 by DarthEnrique

[Slowpokeking]

The old SMs weren't hard, but they included some mechanics that you couldn't bypass unless you were overgeared or overleveled. They also weren't bolstered and weren't meant to be possible to clear 15 levels below max level. Every SM is now a tank and spank, frequently possible with only 1 tank and only requires at least 1 healer to be paying attention and the DPS to know how to spam basic attacks.

 

Quite a few SM bosses still require a lot of mechanic works. Most of the REALLY HARD HM bosses' mech is not in SM.

[LordBritain]

And yet it still happens.

 

It's something called rotations. Let's say you have an arsenal merc and your rotation is 1,2,3,4. You'll find that there are a bunch of people out there that just press 1 pretty much the whole fight. The lack of knowing rotations cause people to have DPS rates that are lower than tanks.

 

Scary...but it's out there.

 

Truth. I have witnessed it, still bare the scars.

[Kyuuu]

The old SMs weren't hard, but they included some mechanics that you couldn't bypass unless you were overgeared or overleveled. They also weren't bolstered and weren't meant to be possible to clear 15 levels below max level. Every SM is now a tank and spank, frequently possible with only 1 tank and only requires at least 1 healer to be paying attention and the DPS to know how to spam basic attacks.

 

^

This, those mechanics were completely ingored before cause everyone was over level and gear of what the ops was made for. If people were same level and had same level gear they would and do wipe now to those same mechanics that have been REMOVED FROM SM OPS

 

For instance IF the orbs from SOA fight did the same amount damage vs total hp as they when it HM first was released, People now that still ignore that mechanic would be wiping the raid, cause they use to take 60% your health and are aoe at that, and people like to just let those orbs go right threw the group...

 

But that is hardmode, we talking SM OPS and SM havs e nerfed in both mechanics and dps checks.

 

Underlurker in SM is great example of Mechanics and DPS checks being nerfed. in 4.0. Fabricator another one, SM use to make you KNOW how to do do the puzzle, and know it only HM and amount people that dont even know about that puzzle which is simple is even worse now then before.

Edited April 27, 2016 by Kyuuu

[TUXs]

Underlurker in SM is great example of Mechanics and DPS checks being nerfed. in 4.0.

Thank God for this too. I enjoy Ops...I like helping new players through operations they've never done. Underlurker stopped all progress in most PuG prior to 4.0. Now it's able to be completed by casual PvEers looking for more to do. It's a great way to introduce players to Ops and gives players something more to do. I'm thrilled with the way SM's currently are.

[IanArgent]

I'd rather mechanics than DPS/HPS checks in SM, as long as they're fully telegraphed at the "don't stand in red/click the glowy" level.

[squirrelballz]

Thank God for this too. I enjoy Ops...I like helping new players through operations they've never done. Underlurker stopped all progress in most PuG prior to 4.0. Now it's able to be completed by casual PvEers looking for more to do. It's a great way to introduce players to Ops and gives players something more to do. I'm thrilled with the way SM's currently are.

 

^^This... So Much This. I find it engaging and rewarding helping new people in pugs I really feel that SM OPS is in a really good place right now. However, I can respect and understand people disagreeing with me.

[TUXs]

I'd rather mechanics than DPS/HPS checks in SM, as long as they're fully telegraphed at the "don't stand in red/click the glowy" level.

Both are important imo, but you're right...SM does a very poor job of building players up to HM right now. At least if all the "mechanics" were still there, players would feel like they were building up to something. Currently, the difference between most SM and HM Ops is night and day.

[TUXs]

^^This... So Much This. I find it engaging and rewarding helping new people in pugs I really feel that SM OPS is in a really good place right now. However, I can respect and understand people disagreeing with me.

 

I disagree!!!

 

Do you respect me now?

[squirrelballz]

I disagree!!!

 

Do you respect me now?

 

One should always respect batman no one should ever mess with him, so yes I do.

Edited April 27, 2016 by squirrelballz

[Slowpokeking]

Both are important imo, but you're right...SM does a very poor job of building players up to HM right now. At least if all the "mechanics" were still there, players would feel like they were building up to something. Currently, the difference between most SM and HM Ops is night and day.

 

It does a poor job in pre 4.0 as well.

[TUXs]

It does a poor job in pre 4.0 as well.

Misread...yes it did...I still like 4.0 for people, but learning fewer mechanics makes HM's ridiculously harder (most).

Edited April 27, 2016 by TUXs

[Slowpokeking]

That's what I meant...4.0 was good and bad...it made it easier to complete SM Ops (and that is HUGE imo), but people learn fewer mechanics, making HM's ridiculously harder (most).

 

But it's not much different than what happened in 3.0.

 

HM is hard because it's hard, you don't get to go through it simply because you did SM well and watched video.

Edited April 27, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[IanArgent]

Both are important imo, but you're right...SM does a very poor job of building players up to HM right now. At least if all the "mechanics" were still there, players would feel like they were building up to something. Currently, the difference between most SM and HM Ops is night and day.

 

Well, a DPS check is a mechanic of a sort; I suppose.

[JouerTue]

i'm ok with ridicolous SM checks and easy content for noobs, but mechanics should be there..not instadeathwiping the group, but still there..kephess, calphaius..if you bring a new player into hm, it's going to wipe the group in any new mechanic he encounters for the first time. and buff EV/KP plz. every tuesday:

EV/KP : 30-40 instances

TFB/SNV: like 20

the others: 5-6

[Ramalina]

I'd rather mechanics than DPS/HPS checks in SM, as long as they're fully telegraphed at the "don't stand in red/click the glowy" level.

 

Ideally you have mechanics, telegraphs for the mechanics, and easily observable but easily overcome consequences for failing the mechanics in SM.

 

Normally in HM and NiM the consequence is a crap-ton of damage, whether directly from a hit or AOE or debuff stack or indirectly from failing an enrage timer.

 

That doesn't work in SM though, because if it takes a bunch of tries to learn the lesson, and everyone is failing the first few times, then the healers get overwhelmed and you wipe.

 

 

Things like boss invincibility, stuns, or slows (attack and movement), combined with really blatant telegraph and debuff(assuming you fail) graphics would probably be a good option.

 

From teaching perspective what a player needs to be spoon fed in SM Ops is:

 

• We the developers want you to do this action: [fill in blank] at this point in the fight. The telegraph should indicate this.
  
• There are unpleasant consequences to not [correctly filling in blank above].
  
• However, this is SM, so even if you failed multiple times you should still manage to muddle through, but you know if you didn't get things right.
  

 

Right now SM Ops are training people that, "standing in the stupid," is fine, because there's no difference between that and taking the trouble to get out of the way.

 

It's fine if PUGs can survive all standing in the stupid without wiping, but there should be enough of a signal for them to realize that it's something they should make an effort to avoid in the future. They shouldn't go home with bags full of loot thinking, "Next time I should ask that guy that does HMs what all those red circles on the floor are about." The, "do not stand here," should be obvious. That's why I mentioned stuns and slows as possible substitutes for damage as a consequence, they're annoying, they're obvious, but in most cases they're also very survivable.

 

In SM Ops, annoying, obvious, and survivable is exactly what you need associated with failing mechanics. Well maybe upgrade to blatantly obvious for the benefit of PUGs.

 

Aside from, "I was leet," type nostalgia, that's the core complaint against the current SM difficulty. It's not that there's a problem with random groups of noobs clearing them. It's that they're not teaching them the things they'll need in order to succeed in the next stage of PvE progression. SMs don't have to be harder per se, but it would be very good if they became more educational.

[Slowpokeking]

Ideally you have mechanics, telegraphs for the mechanics, and easily observable but easily overcome consequences for failing the mechanics in SM.

 

Normally in HM and NiM the consequence is a crap-ton of damage, whether directly from a hit or AOE or debuff stack or indirectly from failing an enrage timer.

 

That doesn't work in SM though, because if it takes a bunch of tries to learn the lesson, and everyone is failing the first few times, then the healers get overwhelmed and you wipe.

 

 

Things like boss invincibility, stuns, or slows (attack and movement), combined with really blatant telegraph and debuff(assuming you fail) graphics would probably be a good option.

 

From teaching perspective what a player needs to be spoon fed in SM Ops is:

 

• We the developers want you to do this action: [fill in blank] at this point in the fight. The telegraph should indicate this.
  
• There are unpleasant consequences to not [correctly filling in blank above].
  
• However, this is SM, so even if you failed multiple times you should still manage to muddle through, but you know if you didn't get things right.
  

 

Right now SM Ops are training people that, "standing in the stupid," is fine, because there's no difference between that and taking the trouble to get out of the way.

 

It's fine if PUGs can survive all standing in the stupid without wiping, but there should be enough of a signal for them to realize that it's something they should make an effort to avoid in the future. They shouldn't go home with bags full of loot thinking, "Next time I should ask that guy that does HMs what all those red circles on the floor are about." The, "do not stand here," should be obvious. That's why I mentioned stuns and slows as possible substitutes for damage as a consequence, they're annoying, they're obvious, but in most cases they're also very survivable.

 

In SM Ops, annoying, obvious, and survivable is exactly what you need associated with failing mechanics. Well maybe upgrade to blatantly obvious for the benefit of PUGs.

 

Aside from, "I was leet," type nostalgia, that's the core complaint against the current SM difficulty. It's not that there's a problem with random groups of noobs clearing them. It's that they're not teaching them the things they'll need in order to succeed in the next stage of PvE progression. SMs don't have to be harder per se, but it would be very good if they became more educational.

 

Which SM boss teaches you to stand in the stupid? It just doesn't punish you too harshly. In 3.0, a lot of the boss aoe doesn't matter that much either.

 

Also there is one HUGE point you are missing, SM is not mainly to teach people to prepare for HM, it was designed for those who couldn't do HM or didnt want to do HM, which is the majority of the people, to be able to experience and boss and the story.

Edited April 27, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[IanArgent]

Ideally you have mechanics, telegraphs for the mechanics, and easily observable but easily overcome consequences for failing the mechanics in SM.

 

Normally in HM and NiM the consequence is a crap-ton of damage, whether directly from a hit or AOE or debuff stack or indirectly from failing an enrage timer.

 

That doesn't work in SM though, because if it takes a bunch of tries to learn the lesson, and everyone is failing the first few times, then the healers get overwhelmed and you wipe.

 

 

Things like boss invincibility, stuns, or slows (attack and movement), combined with really blatant telegraph and debuff(assuming you fail) graphics would probably be a good option.

 

From teaching perspective what a player needs to be spoon fed in SM Ops is:

 

• We the developers want you to do this action: [fill in blank] at this point in the fight. The telegraph should indicate this.
  
• There are unpleasant consequences to not [correctly filling in blank above].
  
• However, this is SM, so even if you failed multiple times you should still manage to muddle through, but you know if you didn't get things right.
  

 

Right now SM Ops are training people that, "standing in the stupid," is fine, because there's no difference between that and taking the trouble to get out of the way.

 

It's fine if PUGs can survive all standing in the stupid without wiping, but there should be enough of a signal for them to realize that it's something they should make an effort to avoid in the future. They shouldn't go home with bags full of loot thinking, "Next time I should ask that guy that does HMs what all those red circles on the floor are about." The, "do not stand here," should be obvious. That's why I mentioned stuns and slows as possible substitutes for damage as a consequence, they're annoying, they're obvious, but in most cases they're also very survivable.

 

In SM Ops, annoying, obvious, and survivable is exactly what you need associated with failing mechanics. Well maybe upgrade to blatantly obvious for the benefit of PUGs.

 

Aside from, "I was leet," type nostalgia, that's the core complaint against the current SM difficulty. It's not that there's a problem with random groups of noobs clearing them. It's that they're not teaching them the things they'll need in order to succeed in the next stage of PvE progression. SMs don't have to be harder per se, but it would be very good if they became more educational.

 

Here's something interesting (that was probably a bug). Last night I did my first TFP as a tank. Queued into Blood Hunt, at the second boss fight. We (unwisely) chose to attempt it as a 3+comp because GF wasn't giving us a 4th. The comp got tossed off the platform pretty quickly, and then I (through my own fault) got tossed off as well. At which point, normally, I'd be out of play until the other two wiped. Only, I didn't die when I hit the lava... I was obviously glitched because I couldn't move without the graphics going funny. Eventually, though, Valk pulled me back up onto the platform via a harpoon animation (and we proceeded to wipe once they both came down and got serious - one person dropped, GF refilled both slots, and we completed the FP. But I digress).

 

Likewise, there's that fight in DP (DF? I forget which) where you're on another platform, and the tiles that make it up are being removed by mechanic throughout the fight. If you fall off, it's not a big deal, you take some fall damage and have to click to return to the fight.

 

In both cases, you pay a penalty for disrespecting the mechanic, but it doesn't put you out of the fight until the end; you come back and try again; hopefully having learned a lesson to put into immediate practice. Stuns/roots/knockbacks work too. Death would work, except that in a boss fight in an Op, it takes too long to recover from. Let the players use a med probe in a SM Op, or revive at a place where they have to run back to the fight (a la KDY boss fights).One mistake should not doom the attempt.

[Jadescythe]

But it's not much different than what happened in 3.0.

 

HM is hard because it's hard, you don't get to go through it simply because you did SM well and watched video.

 

You just seem to be tunneling on this. It's INFINITELY different from 3.0. Bolster alone makes SM at least a million times easier in 4.0. The difficulty for a new player with no operations gear in 3.0 compared to a new player with no operations gear in 4.0 is night and day. You're going in like you have gear from HM Ops your first time in.

 

Even if I completely agreed with you and 4.0 was equally as bad as 3.0, it would be irrelevant. The game could have had terrible disparity for its entire history and it still doesn't make it right. SM should be accessible to everyone, but still prepare you for the next level in some ways. If that means a very small portion of the player base can't basic attack their way through it, I'm prepared to alienate those players.

[Slowpokeking]

You just seem to be tunneling on this. It's INFINITELY different from 3.0. Bolster alone makes SM at least a million times easier in 4.0. The difficulty for a new player with no operations gear in 3.0 compared to a new player with no operations gear in 4.0 is night and day. You're going in like you have gear from HM Ops your first time in.

 

Even if I completely agreed with you and 4.0 was equally as bad as 3.0, it would be irrelevant. The game could have had terrible disparity for its entire history and it still doesn't make it right. SM should be accessible to everyone, but still prepare you for the next level in some ways. If that means a very small portion of the player base can't basic attack their way through it, I'm prepared to alienate those players.

 

Isn't it a good thing to let players be able to run ops without worrying too much about the gear?

 

SM is not made to let you be prepare for next round, it was designed for people to experience the story and bosses because not everyone could run HM. There is no "prepare you for next level", get into HM and learn the mech from HM through wipes, that is REAL preparation.

[IanArgent]

Which SM boss teaches you to stand in the stupid? It just doesn't punish you too harshly. In 3.0, a lot of the boss aoe doesn't matter that much either.

 

They don't teach you to avoid it, at any rate. And there isn't much visible difference between the annoying and the deadly variants of mechanics

 

Also there is one HUGE point you are missing, SM is not mainly to teach people to prepare for HM, it was designed for those who couldn't do HM or didnt want to do HM, which is the majority of the people, to be able to experience and boss and the story.

 

Why not both? Why shouldn't SM be a place to learn that mechanics matter, and disrespecting them is No Fun? It doesn't have to (and shouldn't be) lethally instructive, but there ought to be some consequences to standing in the stuff. It just shouldn't be "stand in this stuff and everyone dies a horrible three-part screaming death"

[Slowpokeking]

Why not both? Why shouldn't SM be a place to learn that mechanics matter, and disrespecting them is No Fun? It doesn't have to (and shouldn't be) lethally instructive, but there ought to be some consequences to standing in the stuff. It just shouldn't be "stand in this stuff and everyone dies a horrible three-part screaming death"

 

If you want to learn the mechanics for HM, run HM. Simple.

 

Yes there are, pugs don't want to stand on stuff like the lava of the DF rancor, Hand of Brontes' Smash, Overcharged Beam, Bestia's yellow circle, Raptus' Force execution.