Buff SM operations

[DieAlteHexe]

I just don't get it, it's not that hard to do HM without learning SM, yes it's going to be painful in the beginning but it's impossible to avoid. People didn't want to do HM because few groups give them the patience to learn. It's not gonna change with the difficulty of SM.

 

*nod* If I can figure out HM, anyone can.

 

When I'm in the mood, HM is a lot of fun. When I'm not, I like the option of SM. I cannot understand why this is even an issue. I certainly could if there was nothing but SM and I'd be right alongside the HM+ folks waving my pitchfork but it's not THAT much different.

[Slowpokeking]

I don't disagree - I want SM to be readily completable for players of any skill levels.

 

Perhaps a new tier is needed, between SM and HM...I just don't want people to have experiences like you did where they're all gung-ho to join a HM Op because they're SM masters...only to be "mauled" so badly that they never set foot in one again. I would love it if the path to progression were better defined.

 

No, no, no.

 

Just give players more patience in HM and everything will be fine.

 

Of course they would be mauled, otherwise why is it called "HM"?

[DieAlteHexe]

I don't disagree - I want SM to be readily completable for players of any skill levels.

 

Perhaps a new tier is needed, between SM and HM...I just don't want people to have experiences like you did where they're all gung-ho to join a HM Op because they're SM masters...only to be "mauled" so badly that they never set foot in one again. I would love it if the path to progression were better defined.

 

Not sure. As I said, I'm not a very adept player. Old bones, arthritis and some other junk. If someone gives up that easily (gets mauled once and is put off), well, I'm not sure it's worth the dev time/effort to insert another mode.

 

Especially since "death" in this game is negligible.

[IanArgent]

I think the reality is something that EA/BW knows and I think what we're seeing is "writing" for that reality. Raiders are rarely the majority and, as things have evolved in MMOs in particular, casuals are turning out to be the "bread and butter". There it is, fwiw.

 

I've said it a couple of times; I don't think there will ever be a new "classic raid format (8+ players aimed at taking an hour+)" group mission again in this game. Too much effort for not enough players. however, I also believe they need to do something that is group-focused content; this is still an MMO. HSF was a start, but needs better grouping tools. For that matter, the World Bosses and Event Bosses need better grouping tools - a planetary Group Finder that works should be on the roadmap.

 

One thing I've thought of is an Eternal Champion-formatted event, only for groups - 4-man, 8-man, what have you. They could always cheat and reskin and remix some existing boss mechanics if they had to.

[Slowpokeking]

Seriously, which HM boss is "hella hard" without doing SM but "could be done without wipe" with SM knowledge before 4.0? I couldn't think of any of them. Either they are on a totally different level compare to SM, or you could beat them easily without learning SM.

[Jadescythe]

Just give them time to learn the fights and they will be fine, even before 4.0, SM helps little for HM bosses, you still need to wipe many times to do the bosses well.

 

I don't understand why you continue repeating this statement. It's incorrect. At level SM Operations have always provided a meaningful step towards the next difficulty before KotFE. When the damage is tuned up and a few new mechanics are thrown into the loop, groups wiped, but had less trouble improving each pull. Pulling over and over again and wiping with no progress kills a group's momentum and is the major cause of casual raiders giving up. Especially now that they will have been conditioned to never be able to fail before trying HM.

 

I'm happy if the current SM setup is getting more players involved in raiding, but it certainly isn't translating to their continued desire to move forward with more difficult content. I would say it's actively working against building that desire. Challenging group content certainly isn't for everyone, but the current system, and what you keep saying in your posts, is the absolute best way to never change their mind.

[DieAlteHexe]

I've said it a couple of times; I don't think there will ever be a new "classic raid format (8+ players aimed at taking an hour+)" group mission again in this game. Too much effort for not enough players. however, I also believe they need to do something that is group-focused content; this is still an MMO. HSF was a start, but needs better grouping tools. For that matter, the World Bosses and Event Bosses need better grouping tools - a planetary Group Finder that works should be on the roadmap.

 

One thing I've thought of is an Eternal Champion-formatted event, only for groups - 4-man, 8-man, what have you. They could always cheat and reskin and remix some existing boss mechanics if they had to.

 

Oooh, that's a good idea. Thought about posting that over in Suggestions?

[Slowpokeking]

I don't understand why you continue repeating this statement. It's incorrect. At level SM Operations have always provided a meaningful step towards the next difficulty before KotFE. When the damage is tuned up and a few new mechanics are thrown into the loop, groups wiped, but had less trouble improving each pull. Pulling over and over again and wiping with no progress kills a group's momentum and is the major cause of casual raiders giving up. Especially now that they will have been conditioned to never be able to fail before trying HM.

 

I'm happy if the current SM setup is getting more players involved in raiding, but it certainly isn't translating to their continued desire to move forward with more difficult content. I would say it's actively working against building that desire. Challenging group content certainly isn't for everyone, but the current system, and what you keep saying in your posts, is the absolute best way to never change their mind.

Which one helps you much?

Which boss would result you to pull over and over again without progress but help a lot if you have done SM?

For example, TFB bosses

 

First one is easy even if you have never done HM

Dread Guards aren't really hard to learn the mechanics

OP IX is totally different than SM, the deletion is what killing people

Kephess got quite simple mechanics

TFB is mostly a DPS fight, you still need to wipe many times and it's not hard to learn through it.

 

HM bosses are either "easy to beat with the gear" or "have to wipe many times due to entirely different mech and much higher healing/dps/tank skill required".

Edited April 28, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[Jadescythe]

Seriously, which HM boss is "hella hard" without doing SM but "could be done without wipe" with SM knowledge before 4.0? I couldn't think of any of them. Either they are on a totally different level compare to SM, or you could beat them easily without learning SM.

 

Where is this even coming from? I don't expect players to jump in HM and one shot everything. There is a huge difference between wiping and being overwhelmed. It's much easier to learn something in pieces than it is to learn all at once, especially when the damage/healing requirements are lower and you can focus more on mechanics. A good fight to look at now is TFB Kephess.

 

SM has absolutely no meaningful mechanics in phase 1. You can tank and spank the whole fight. HM adds in the blue circle for tanks causing a swap, getting marked and having to stand in front of towers, and orbs for DPS in phase 1. How much better would it be if SM had the tower portion as a requirement? Then every member just has 1 new mechanic to learn on top of the increased damage and healing needed to clear the first phase in HM.

 

This wouldn't make SM impossible, it doesn't take a large amount of skill to stand somewhere when required or lead Kephess to a certain spot. But it starts to put the building blocks in place so you are already conditioned to follow this mechanic before ever entering HM. After all, one of the best parts of raiding is that the fights are fun and not just grinding through trash mobs like leveling. If you aren't going to showcase the strengths of your content, what's the point of creating it in the first place?

[Jadescythe]

OP IX is totally different than SM, the deletion is what killing people

 

Ok, what if it wasn't? That's the entire point I'm making. They actually went the opposite way in 4.0. There are even FEWER mechanics in this SM fight post 4.0 than there were at TFB's initial implementation. It's an even bigger gap to jump to hard mode now.

[Slowpokeking]

Where is this even coming from? I don't expect players to jump in HM and one shot everything. There is a huge difference between wiping and being overwhelmed. It's much easier to learn something in pieces than it is to learn all at once, especially when the damage/healing requirements are lower and you can focus more on mechanics. A good fight to look at now is TFB Kephess.

 

SM has absolutely no meaningful mechanics in phase 1. You can tank and spank the whole fight. HM adds in the blue circle for tanks causing a swap, getting marked and having to stand in front of towers, and orbs for DPS in phase 1. How much better would it be if SM had the tower portion as a requirement? Then every member just has 1 new mechanic to learn on top of the increased damage and healing needed to clear the first phase in HM.

 

This wouldn't make SM impossible, it doesn't take a large amount of skill to stand somewhere when required or lead Kephess to a certain spot. But it starts to put the building blocks in place so you are already conditioned to follow this mechanic before ever entering HM. After all, one of the best parts of raiding is that the fights are fun and not just grinding through trash mobs like leveling. If you aren't going to showcase the strengths of your content, what's the point of creating it in the first place?

 

Which boss is going to overwhelm you if you haven't done SM before?

 

And none of these mech are hard to learn, Kephess is never a hard fight in TFB. Why would players be overwhelmed by the fight at all?

[DieAlteHexe]

I may be way off here but it sort of sounds to me like some folks want "ready to play" people and that is the objection to SM. How did the first folk to do any of the "hard content" learn? By trial and error.

 

Sounds to me like people don't want the hassle of having to show "newbs" the ropes and want the pool of players (who can at least recognise the ropes ) to select from to be bigger.

 

Cynical but some of the posters sure come across that way.

[Slowpokeking]

Ok, what if it wasn't? That's the entire point I'm making. They actually went the opposite way in 4.0. There are even FEWER mechanics in this SM fight post 4.0 than there were at TFB's initial implementation. It's an even bigger gap to jump to hard mode now.

 

If it wasn't, then people would not run TFB SM much.

[peter_plankskull]

You started to play in 4.0 right?

 

I like how you try to turn this around and play the blame game instead of acknowledging it you did it over geared and 5 levels over.....

[Slowpokeking]

I may be way off here but it sort of sounds to me like some folks want "ready to play" people and that is the objection to SM. How did the first folk to do any of the "hard content" learn? By trial and error.

 

Sounds to me like people don't want the hassle of having to show "newbs" the ropes and want the pool of players (who can at least recognise the ropes ) to select from to be bigger.

 

Cynical but some of the posters sure come across that way.

 

THIS, is the problem here, people just don't want to give patience so they blame SM.

[peter_plankskull]

Which boss is going to overwhelm you if you haven't done SM before?

 

And none of these mech are hard to learn, Kephess is never a hard fight in TFB. Why would players be overwhelmed by the fight at all?

 

If everything is so easy this or so easy that that they aren't getting overwhelmed.... then why do you constantly ask for operations to further be nerfed

Edited April 28, 2016 by peter_plankskull

[Slowpokeking]

I like how you try to turn this around and play the blame game instead of acknowledging it you did it over geared and 5 levels over.....

 

Yes but it was with pugs and many of them never did NIM Styrak before. They nerfed our skills in 3.0 to make the level 55 ops still challenging.

[DieAlteHexe]

THIS, is the problem here, people just don't want to give patience so they blame SM.

 

For some, sure seems so.

 

I don't inflict myself on others. I am fully aware of my shortcomings and don't expect others to carry me. OTOH, I'm always open to help someone if I can. See "winning" isn't really the big thing to me, it's the playing that is fun. If I win, that's wonderful, but if I had fun (win or lose) all the better.

 

I guess I just don't take my games seriously enough.

[Slowpokeking]

If everything is so easy this or so easy that that they aren't getting overwhelmed.... then why do you constantly ask for operations to further be nerfed

 

I never said it was easy, but the difficulty would not change regardless if you have done SM or not.

 

Because people refuse to let others learn, so the gap is getting bigger and bigger. It's not that big of a deal to have hard content, but it is annoying if you couldn't even step in to try.

[DieAlteHexe]

If everything is so easy this or so easy that that they aren't getting overwhelmed.... then why do you constantly ask for operations to further be nerfed

 

*butts in* Not asking for any nerfs but some of us just aren't as good as others for myriad reasons. Having SM is a great boon for those of us who, for whatever reason, aren't HM material.

[peter_plankskull]

Yes but it was with pugs and many of them never did NIM Styrak before. They nerfed our skills in 3.0 to make the level 55 ops still challenging.

 

Still lots of cheesing done and it wasn't truly earned.

[peter_plankskull]

Which one helps you much?

Which boss would result you to pull over and over again without progress but help a lot if you have done SM?

For example, TFB bosses

 

First one is easy even if you have never done HM

Dread Guards aren't really hard to learn the mechanics

OP IX is totally different than SM, the deletion is what killing people

Kephess got quite simple mechanics

TFB is mostly a DPS fight, you still need to wipe many times and it's not hard to learn through it.

 

HM bosses are either "easy to beat with the gear" or "have to wipe many times due to entirely different mech and much higher healing/dps/tank skill required".

 

Ahem....

[Slowpokeking]

Ahem....

 

Yes, I don't find most of the TFB HM boss annoying other than OP IX.

 

Even TFB isn't hard to learn the mechanics, you need high DPS.

[Slowpokeking]

Still lots of cheesing done and it wasn't truly earned.

 

What cheesing? Have you even try it in 3.0?

[peter_plankskull]

What cheesing? Have you even try it in 3.0?

 

Dude.... your five levels over the content, while you may have to do some mechanics, the ones that don't insta kill you can be healed through and the DPS checks are laughable. You can spend much more leisure time doing the mechanics because you can DPS down the boss faster. Ill admit I didn't do any of the ops besides EV, KP, and EC in the 3.0 cycle but in 4.0 I did all of the story mode operations. Now working my way in hard mode.