Slowpokeking Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 Dude.... your five levels over the content, while you may have to do some mechanics, the ones that don't insta kill you can be healed through and the DPS checks are laughable. You can spend much more leisure time doing the mechanics because you can DPS down the boss faster. Ill admit I didn't do any of the ops besides EV, KP, and EC in the 3.0 cycle but in 4.0 I did all of the story mode operations. Now working my way in hard mode. Which could be healed through? The lightning lines? The four little illusion pretty much 1-shot you if you are not prepared, and it was done with PUG. Have you even tried it yourself? Seriously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter_plankskull Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 Which could be healed through? The lightning lines? The four little illusion pretty much 1-shot you if you are not prepared, and it was done with PUG. Have you even tried it yourself? Seriously. Don't get all high and mighty when you do it with a full group 5 levels over it.... The akk dog with the spikes is one of the few that comes to mind, instead of having some sort of formation were the tank eats it everyone can just stand and take it. Pug or not its still cheesing it whether you want to admit or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gabigool Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 I think the problem with this particular thread is that there are two or three people who keep popping in to attempt to debunk suggestions no one is making. The reality is that in a vacuum, SM Operations are absolutely fine. Unfortunately, they do not exist in a vacuum and have become the primary mechanism for newer players to introduce themselves to non-tactical combat. As such, I believe they can be tuned to be just as easy as they are now, however have a better utilization of mechanics in order to allow those players who wish to proceed further into more difficult content a better foundation for doing so. The orange is simply to point out what most of the objections in this thread are ignoring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunterlue Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 Yes but it was with pugs and many of them never did NIM Styrak before. They nerfed our skills in 3.0 to make the level 55 ops still challenging. it was still easier than rav and tos HM, maybe on par with on level DP/DF HM which got succesfully pugged all the time at the end of the 55 cycle. thats not an achievement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunterlue Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 Yes, I don't find most of the TFB HM boss annoying other than OP IX. Even TFB isn't hard to learn the mechanics, you need high DPS. Take 7 people who have never done ops before and go EV HM with them, i guarantee you the 1st boss will enrage at max 30%, and now you want to add awareness to mechanics into it? People who have never done Ops arent going to do more than 3,5k dps, which is not enough, even in EV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peter_plankskull Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 Take 7 people who have never done ops before and go EV HM with them, i guarantee you the 1st boss will enrage at max 30%, and now you want to add awareness to mechanics into it? People who have never done Ops arent going to do more than 3,5k dps, which is not enough, even in EV Why should people who never done operations immediately jump into a hard mode one.... even if it is EV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kortio Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 (edited) Another problem which I didn't see pop up here is, that Star Parse is essentially a cheating tool and is making the game too easy. WoW had the same problem with threat meters and boss mods and the devs ended up designing encounters around it. And guilds are trying to force it upon you, even though it is against the TOS to use it. I even see PUGs that demand it. I wish they would start banning for using it. Edited April 28, 2016 by Kortio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadescythe Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 Another problem which I didn't see pop up here is, that Star Parse is essentially a cheating tool and is making the game too easy. WoW had the same problem with threat meters and boss mods and the devs ended up designing encounters around it. And guilds are trying to force it upon you, even though it is against the TOS to use it. I even see PUGs that demand it. I wish they would start banning for using it. u wot m8? You know it just analyzes your combat log that is a SWTOR integrated tool that you turn on and off in preferences, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadescythe Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 Yes but it was with pugs and many of them never did NIM Styrak before. They nerfed our skills in 3.0 to make the level 55 ops still challenging. I don't understand how this is a relevant point in the conversation whatsoever. Most of the PUGs I find have a hard time putting out the damage to kill the first boss in EV without 5 DPS/1 tank. I'm sure there are many out there that could breeze through most of the content no problem as well. I think we're all aware there are players of different skill levels in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kortio Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 (edited) u wot m8? You know it just analyzes your combat log that is a SWTOR integrated tool that you turn on and off in preferences, right? And provides overlays and timers. It is information that no human can manually analyze in the same time frame. Therefore, it is cheating. Edited April 28, 2016 by Kortio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benmas Posted April 28, 2016 Author Share Posted April 28, 2016 take TFB boosted to level 55 due to low participation in 1.0 as it was released late and was a large step up from EC lots of mechanics in SM were also in the HM this gave players a taster of what to expect when they hit HM kephes TFB and dread guards all featured tank swaps now lets look at them in 4.0 dread guards still features the swap but takes place it very high stacks now. kephes and TFB no longer have them. the gap between them is getting bigger and bigger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieAlteHexe Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 ...The orange is simply to point out what most of the objections in this thread are ignoring. Or disagreeing with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadescythe Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 And provides overlays and timers. It is information that no human can manually analyze in the same time frame. Therefore, it is cheating. What? You don't need any of that. There are visual cues for any timer you could put on. The only real benefit is to track DPS/HPS and make sure no one needs to improve their individual play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kortio Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 What? You don't need any of that. That does not matter. The tool provides it and that is the problem. It makes OPS easier than they are designed to be, because you have information in real time that otherwise would not be available to you. It is an unallowed 3rd party program and falls into the cheating sector of the TOS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadescythe Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 Yes, I don't find most of the TFB HM boss annoying other than OP IX. Even TFB isn't hard to learn the mechanics, you need high DPS. I don't feel like you did any of these raids when they were actually the top level content. Today, HM Rav and ToS are the only ones with any challenging fights. None of the iterations of TFB have been anywhere close to the launch version. Horror was always pretty easy as long as DPS didn't pull aggro. But the second fight required massive amounts of healing in the lightning phase. Groups 100% wiped on that fight if they couldn't kill the first guy before the second lightning phase which wasn't an easy task at the time. Operator IX was the most mechanically intensive fight in the game. Any small mistake could easily kill the group. The healing and DPS requirements on Kephess were extremely high. Before it got nerfed a few months in, killing all of the orb spawns between tentacles on TFB required a massive amount of DPS from all parties and healing to keep everyone up. These raids on HM have never been easier in the game's history. And the old SM versions had almost all of the same mechanics, just with less harsh penalties and much lower HPS/DPS requirements. It was literally the best preparation for HM possible. You had to keep your awareness of the mechanics and execute your role as well. You also needed the gear to even start HM, unlike now where you can do EV/KP HM in 180s with 6 alts and be geared out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jadescythe Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 That does not matter. The tool provides it and that is the problem. It makes OPS easier than they are designed to be, because you have information in real time that otherwise would not be available to you. It is an unallowed 3rd party program and falls into the cheating sector of the TOS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanArgent Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 I think the problem with this particular thread is that there are two or three people who keep popping in to attempt to debunk suggestions no one is making. The reality is that in a vacuum, SM Operations are absolutely fine. Unfortunately, they do not exist in a vacuum and have become the primary mechanism for newer players to introduce themselves to non-tactical combat. As such, I believe they can be tuned to be just as easy as they are now, however have a better utilization of mechanics in order to allow those players who wish to proceed further into more difficult content a better foundation for doing so. The orange is simply to point out what most of the objections in this thread are ignoring. The orange sections are why I've suggested the things I have, at least going forward. I have no expectation of changes to existing content, because that would be a lot of work for relatively little gain. The "current" Ops paradigm is rooted in 10 year old game design, from a different game, targeting an audience that is no longer the majority of the one playing this game (arguably, it never was). If you want to see people playing Ops, then there needs to be a smooth learning curve, both within SM Ops, and making the transition from SM to HM Ops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunterlue Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 Why should people who never done operations immediately jump into a hard mode one.... even if it is EV. yes thats exactly my point. im asking slowpokeking if he thinks that learning the basics of operations in Hardmode is a good idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khevar Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 And provides overlays and timers. It is information that no human can manually analyze in the same time frame. Therefore, it is cheating. WoW made content more challenging because people were using Add-Ons. SWTOR has made content easier, despite people using parsers. They've also publicly stated they're never making NM modes again. So "difficult content" isn't really a thing in the TOR playbook. This theoretical problem you're presenting of "people are cheating with parsers" isn't going to result in "content being overtuned". Ergo, you're complaints are completely irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowpokeking Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 Don't get all high and mighty when you do it with a full group 5 levels over it.... The akk dog with the spikes is one of the few that comes to mind, instead of having some sort of formation were the tank eats it everyone can just stand and take it. Pug or not its still cheesing it whether you want to admit or not. Then why didn't you try it with pugs who had never done it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowpokeking Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 it was still easier than rav and tos HM, maybe on par with on level DP/DF HM which got succesfully pugged all the time at the end of the 55 cycle. thats not an achievement Which HM is more difficult than Rav and ToS? I've pugged through DF and DP as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowpokeking Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 Take 7 people who have never done ops before and go EV HM with them, i guarantee you the 1st boss will enrage at max 30%, and now you want to add awareness to mechanics into it? People who have never done Ops arent going to do more than 3,5k dps, which is not enough, even in EV As long as they got the gear for the DPS check, a few wipes will help them go through. Even if they had done EV SM before, it still could enrage easily if they don't have the DPS gears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowpokeking Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 I don't understand how this is a relevant point in the conversation whatsoever. Most of the PUGs I find have a hard time putting out the damage to kill the first boss in EV without 5 DPS/1 tank. I'm sure there are many out there that could breeze through most of the content no problem as well. I think we're all aware there are players of different skill levels in the game. And how is SM going to teach them? The first boss' mech is very very easy, all the problem you got is DPS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowpokeking Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 Why should people who never done operations immediately jump into a hard mode one.... even if it is EV. Why shouldn't they? It's their freedom to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slowpokeking Posted April 28, 2016 Share Posted April 28, 2016 take TFB boosted to level 55 due to low participation in 1.0 as it was released late and was a large step up from EC lots of mechanics in SM were also in the HM this gave players a taster of what to expect when they hit HM kephes TFB and dread guards all featured tank swaps now lets look at them in 4.0 dread guards still features the swap but takes place it very high stacks now. kephes and TFB no longer have them. the gap between them is getting bigger and bigger. And even before 4.0, people still get slaughtered horribly in HM by OP IX, regardless how good they do in SM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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