Buff SM operations

[Slowpokeking]

They don't teach you to avoid it, at any rate. And there isn't much visible difference between the annoying and the deadly variants of mechanics

 

Oh really? I don't see most of the pugs stand in stuff like Bestia's circle or Raptus' Force Execution/Knockback without facing consequences.

[Slowpokeking]

Here is the problem, if you want people to be prepare for HM, why not let them run through HM? It's exactly the mech that they got to learn rather than some "nerfed version".

 

People here simply don't have the patience for newbie wiping at HM, so they blame the SM or the leveling game for being too easy, which is nothing but lies.

Edited April 27, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[peter_plankskull]

If you want to learn the mechanics for HM, run HM. Simple.

 

Yes there are, pugs don't want to stand on stuff like the lava of the DF rancor, Hand of Brontes' Smash, Overcharged Beam, Bestia's yellow circle, Raptus' Force execution.

 

Then you're doomed for HM because SM taught you nothing making the odds increasingly stacked against you. SM should ease people into HM one way or another, as it is now its a whole new world when its something other than EV and KP. Instead of learning or adapting to one mechanic, you now have to adapt to two or even three making it harder for the brain to learn because you have to take such a huge amount of information at one time.

Edited April 27, 2016 by peter_plankskull

[Slowpokeking]

Then you're doomed for HM because SM taught you nothing making the odds increasingly stacked against you. SM should ease people into HM one way or another, as it is now its a whole new world when its something other than EV and KP. Instead of learning or adapting to one mechanic, you now have to adapt to two or even three making it harder for the brain to learn because you have to take such a huge amount of information at one time.

 

Of course you are doomed because it's HM, no matter how good you are in SM, it's entirely different level in HM. So you need to wipe and wipe till you learn it, that's how ops works. There is no easy way around it. Sure some bosses in HM aren't that hard, and you could beat them without doing SM, as long as your gear isn't too bad.

 

Sorry SM was not designed to teach people for HM, it was designed to let everyone be able to experience the story and content. If you want people to prepare for HM, let them run HM. Simple. It's not too huge, you guys just don't have the patience to help others learn.

Edited April 27, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[Slowpokeking]

Seriously, it's just a game, as long as you can get a group to keep wipe on bosses, it doesn't really matter you have done SM or not. Even if you have done SM, it's not going to cost much fewer wipes. I've done NIM SnV without finishing HM first.

 

Most of the hard mechanics in HM are either removed or doesn't need too much attention because it's not deadly. This doesn't change much in 3.0. If you want to buff them up, why not let people to run HM directly?

Edited April 27, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[peter_plankskull]

Seriously, it's just a game, as long as you can get a group to keep wipe on bosses, it doesn't really matter you have done SM or not. Even if you have done SM, it's not going to cost much fewer wipes. I've done NIM SnV without finishing HM first.

 

Most of the hard mechanics in HM are either removed or doesn't need too much attention because it's not deadly. This doesn't change much in 3.0. If you want to buff them up, why not let people to run HM directly?

 

Do you learn how to swim by jumping in the deep end with no floaties or on shallow water were you can slowly get back to shore?

 

Do you learn how to ride your back with training wheels or no training wheels on the street next to a main road?

 

People learn how to swim by taking it slow, easy, and a safe environment to slowly work their way up the chain till their ready, not a hazardous environment were its their first time.

[Slowpokeking]

Do you learn how to swim by jumping in the deep end with no floaties or on shallow water were you can slowly get back to shore?

 

Do you learn how to ride your back with training wheels or no training wheels on the street next to a main road?

 

People learn how to swim by taking it slow, easy, and a safe environment to slowly work their way up the chain till their ready, not a hazardous environment were its their first time.

 

Yes you do, I've done most of the HM FP without looking at SM during 1.0. Finished NIM SnV with a pug group and I've never touched HM before. Most of the SM mech really matters little when you are running HM, they could be learned easily if you have the time and effort for HM.

 

But SM is not for people to learn to swim, it's just designed for people to have some fun in water with all the lifebelt allowed. It was designed BECAUSE many of these people don't want to learn how to swim and the park still need them to have fun. Trying to buff it just to set it up for HM, is simply contradicting its basic purpose.

Edited April 27, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[peter_plankskull]

Yes you do, I've done most of the HM FP without looking at SM during 1.0. Finished NIM SnV with a pug group and I've never touched HM before. Most of the SM mech really matters little when you are running HM, they could be learned easily if you have the time and effort for HM.

 

But SM is not for people to learn to swim, it's just designed for people to have some fun in water with all the lifebelt allowed. It was designed BECAUSE many of these people don't want to learn how to swim and the park still need them to have fun. Trying to buff it just to set it up for HM, is simply contradicting its basic purpose.

 

Tempted to ask... was this SNV NIM run on level or nu

 

So in the end you do admit that you learn to swim by jumping off in the ocean with sharks in the water only to make sure SM is allowed so people can be in the baby pool with floaties....

[Slowpokeking]

Tempted to ask... was this SNV NIM run on level or nu

 

So in the end you do admit that you learn to swim by jumping off in the ocean with sharks in the water only to make sure SM is allowed so people can be in the baby pool with floaties....

 

It was 3.0 so it was 5 level lower, but I've done it with pugs and 1-shotted most of the bosses.

 

It was why we have SM, decades ago, there was no SM/HM raid in MMO like WOW, just the hardcore massive 40 men raid and later there were different levels out, story mode was called story mode because it was designed to let everyone be able to experience the story/content, not to prepare people for HM ops, that could be the job of HM FP.

 

It doesn't matter that HM got sharks, you can't put sharks in SM. So regardless of how well did you do in HM, the tough HM bosses requires you to keep wipe to learn it and the easy ones could be done without finishing SM first.

[Kyuuu]

I think Slowpokeking is just trolling at this point.

 

SM OPS teach you nothing or even prepare you in anyway for HM ops when it comes to mechanics cause all the mechanics that were there pre 3.0 are mostly gone, and HM OPS make the assumption you know basic mechanics, that were REMOVED from SM ops. At least prior to 4.0 mechanics were there and people knew something when they went into a HM ops.

 

HM OPS are current the equivalent for droping a child that cant swim in the pool and tell it to swim or drown.

 

Also dont compare 3.0 HM/NIM which prior to 4.0 EVERYONE was 10 level higher and in gear 10+ level higher then those ops were made for.

 

4.0 everyone is in same level/gear the ops are "balanced" for and I use that term losely. People that were going threw things like EC/DF/DP HM like it was nothing cant do that anymore cause there all same level/gear as ops was balance for.

 

SM OPS are ment ease you into HM ops, but with the current SM ops removal of most there mechanic, most people dont even understand basic things like mechanics. In there Current form SM ops are a joke I prefer the 3.0 ones over the 4.0 even WITH the fact they were made for toons and gear 10 levels lower, simply cause MECHANIC were there even if people ignored them they atlest knew about them and had some idea what to expect in HM. anyone that started after 4.0 probably has no clue about the basic mechanics that in HM that WERE TAUGHT by the SM OPS.

 

BW/EA is all about simplify the game and CS at this point. LEVEL up prior 4.0 and level sync was actual challenge and you actual died when trying beat bosses, now that every has heal comp starting at the beging of game that can heal, level up is ridiculous easy a rank 2 comp in heal mode is more then enough to make sure you dont die from any boss level up. hell you can solo heroic with them too...

Edited April 27, 2016 by Kyuuu

[Slowpokeking]

I think Slowpokeking is just trolling at this point.

 

SM OPS teach you nothing or even prepare you in anyway for HM ops when it comes to mechanics cause all the mechanics that were there pre 3.0 are mostly gone, and HM OPS make the assumption you know basic mechanics, that were REMOVED from SM ops. At least prior to 4.0 mechanics were there and people knew something when they went into a HM ops.

 

HM OPS are current the equivalent for droping a child that cant swim in the pool and tell it to swim or drown.

 

Also dont compare 3.0 HM/NIM which prior to 4.0 EVERYONE was 10 level higher and in gear 10+ level higher then those ops were made for.

 

4.0 everyone is in same level/gear the ops are "balanced" for and I use that term losely. People that were going threw things like EC/DF/DP HM like it was nothing cant do that anymore cause there all same level/gear as ops was balance for.

 

SM OPS are ment ease you into HM ops, but with the current SM ops removal of most there mechanic, most people dont even understand basic things like mechanics. In there Current form SM ops are a joke I prefer the 3.0 ones over the 4.0 even WITH the fact they were made for toons and gear 10 levels lower, simply cause MECHANIC were there even if people ignored them they atlest knew about them and had some idea what to expect in HM. anyone that started after 4.0 probably has no clue about the basic mechanics that in HM that WERE TAUGHT by the SM OPS.

 

BW/EA is all about simplify the game and CS at this point. LEVEL up prior 4.0 and level sync was actual challenge and you actual died when trying beat bosses, now that every has heal comp starting at the beging of game that can heal, level up is ridiculous easy a rank 2 comp in heal mode is more then enough to make sure you dont die from any boss level up. hell you can solo heroic with them too...

Nothing? Let's see.

 

Brontes, one of the most difficult bosses in HM, the SM still requires you to get away from the reaches, kill the droids during overcharged beam, avoid the Hand's Smash and kill the fingers quickly. Nothing? Have you really done SM?

 

During 3.0, only EV KP and EC was 10 levels higher, did you even play in 3.0?

 

No, the "basic mechanics" is totally different between SM and HM, even if you know nothing, 3 wipes could pretty much teach you better than get SM clear. Even if you could do SM well, you are going to let yourself get owned badly in tough HM bosses. Do not try to mess up with it. The "basic mechanic" of SM is entirely different than the "basic mechanic" of HM. For some they are very similar, which means you could easily clear those bosses without doing SM.

Edited April 27, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[Slowpokeking]

Seriously, do NOT try to continue overstate the "preparation" effort of SM, for some of the SnV and TFB HM bosses and most of the DF and DP HM bosses. Being able to do SM, knowing the SM mechanics means very little. It would be better to simply spend the effort on HM directly, as long as you are willing to wipe.

 

Tough HM bosses: SM helps very little, you are going to learn almost from the beginning and suffer many wipes, there is no way around.

Easy HM bosses: You could do them easily without learning SM, they are mostly tank+spank with like 1-2 not too deadly mech to notice.

 

 

SM isn't designed for people to prepare for HM as well.

Edited April 27, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[Ramalina]

Also there is one HUGE point you are missing, SM is not mainly to teach people to prepare for HM, it was designed for those who couldn't do HM or didnt want to do HM, which is the majority of the people, to be able to experience and boss and the story.

 

The stat optimized set bonus gear drops suggest otherwise. That's pretty much game developer speak for, "use these instances to prepare for HM Ops."

 

In terms of gearing it does a fine job. In terms of mechanics, it does not. Now, they don't have to kill people only interested in story (though presumably it would be faster for those people to just watch cutscenes on YouTube), but the SM Ops should be demonstrating a clear preview of the HM mechanics and giving strong incentives to learning to do them correctly (but still letting people get through the content if they don't).

 

The point in terms of game design, is to keep paying hampsters (uh, players, I meant players) on the gear progression treadmill instead of letting them get bored and wander off to another game, perhaps for good. If the step between SM and HM is big enough that people are having lots of trouble with the transition, then your treadmill is effectively broken and your hampsters will start escaping. Whether or not that's a problem depends on if BW wants to keep the hampsters that haven't already escaped, or if they're just ready to be done with hampsters because they don't want to clean the cage anymore.

 

From a design standpoint if the HM preparatory gear is dropping in SM Ops, then that's where the HM mechanics learning experiences should be stored as well. For a gear treadmill you want each step to teach well enough so that it reduces the natural winnowing of players going on to the next step, not enhance the winnowing.

 

I want the people currently getting through SM Ops to still get through SM Ops. When they transition though, I want them to feel that it's really not that different aside from the pacing and the severity of consequences for failing mechanics. Adjusting from 10 seconds to get out of the circle before it freezes you in place an locks out your abilities for five seconds to having 4 seconds to get out of the circle that one-shots you is not really that big a deal. Going from watching T.V. and mashing the 1 key for 8 minutes because there are no circles to worry about to, "W. T.F. happened, 20 seconds in and half the raid is dead?" is the sort of thing that gets people thinking that the next step is not a step that they and their group can handle. So what next when there's no more progression to be had in SM? League of Legends, WoW, SW Battlefront? For Bioware, the ideal answer is, "of course not, what's next is HM Ops." Which means that there's very good reason for SM Ops to be effective teaching tools while showing casual players the story in a low pressure environment.

[Slowpokeking]

The stat optimized set bonus gear drops suggest otherwise. That's pretty much game developer speak for, "use these instances to prepare for HM Ops."

You can get 216 gears from other places as well.

 

In terms of gearing it does a fine job. In terms of mechanics, it does not. Now, they don't have to kill people only interested in story (though presumably it would be faster for those people to just watch cutscenes on YouTube), but the SM Ops should be demonstrating a clear preview of the HM mechanics and giving strong incentives to learning to do them correctly (but still letting people get through the content if they don't).

 

Because they are not designed mainly to let people progress to HM, but to let everyone be able to experience the content and story.

 

 

The point in terms of game design, is to keep paying hampsters (uh, players, I meant players) on the gear progression treadmill instead of letting them get bored and wander off to another game, perhaps for good. If the step between SM and HM is big enough that people are having lots of trouble with the transition, then your treadmill is effectively broken and your hampsters will start escaping. Whether or not that's a problem depends on if BW wants to keep the hampsters that haven't already escaped, or if they're just ready to be done with hampsters because they don't want to clean the cage anymore.

 

Not anymore since they stopped to make new ops.

 

From a design standpoint if the HM preparatory gear is dropping in SM Ops, then that's where the HM mechanics learning experiences should be stored as well. For a gear treadmill you want each step to teach well enough so that it reduces the natural winnowing of players going on to the next step, not enhance the winnowing.

 

I want the people currently getting through SM Ops to still get through SM Ops. When they transition though, I want them to feel that it's really not that different aside from the pacing and the severity of consequences for failing mechanics. Adjusting from 10 seconds to get out of the circle before it freezes you in place an locks out your abilities for five seconds to having 4 seconds to get out of the circle that one-shots you is not really that big a deal. Going from watching T.V. and mashing the 1 key for 8 minutes because there are no circles to worry about to, "W. T.F. happened, 20 seconds in and half the raid is dead?" is the sort of thing that gets people thinking that the next step is not a step that they and their group can handle. So what next when there's no more progression to be had in SM? League of Legends, WoW, SW Battlefront? For Bioware, the ideal answer is, "of course not, what's next is HM Ops." Which means that there's very good reason for SM Ops to be effective teaching tools while showing casual players the story in a low pressure environment.

It's simply impossible to do it because there are huge gaps between the players, especially PUGS. Either you keep the SM away from many pugs, or lower the difficulty of HM.

 

It's not for you to say " it's not that big of a deal", for some people, they could not avoid it and it's going to affect the team-ragequit whatever. This is the problem of raid as well. It requires a group rather than just youself, if someone isn't good enough or quit, it's going to affect the whole team.

 

Again, understand the NO.1 purpose of SM ops, many of the people don't want to progress to HM because it requires a lot of effort to form a solid group. They just want to do some daily GF along with some FP/GSF/heroics/PVP whatever.

Edited April 28, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[kasanth]

Leave Story Mode for the people it is for. If others want more of a challenge, they can choose to skip SM and do harder content.

[peter_plankskull]

You can get 216 gears from other places as well.

 

Due state were else I can get 216 gear with set bonus, I would be happy to find out.

 

Because they are not designed mainly to let people progress to HM, but to let everyone be able to experience the content and story.

 

Then why even drop level appropriate gear made to progress at all.

 

Not anymore since they stopped to make new ops.

 

I realize they haven't made any new ops, but they have scaled the ops and gave it some attention, whether or not to squeeze what little part of the player base is left or to retain interest in the future, who knows.

 

It's simply impossible to do it because there are huge gaps between the players, especially PUGS. Either you keep the SM away from many pugs, or lower the difficulty of HM.

 

It's not for you to say " it's not that big of a deal", for some people, they could not avoid it and it's going to affect the team-ragequit whatever. This is the problem of raid as well. It requires a group rather than just youself, if someone isn't good enough or quit, it's going to affect the whole team.

 

Again, understand the NO.1 purpose of SM ops, many of the people don't want to progress to HM because it requires a lot of effort to form a solid group. They just want to do some daily GF along with some FP/GSF/heroics/PVP whatever.

 

Why do you refuse to move the slightest from your own original position of this subject anyway? People have tried to rebut or rebuttal or whatever... yet you keep approaching with the same mindset no matter the circumstances.

[Uruare]

Story Mode = Easy mode

 

NiM is ----->

 

Go do it.

[Slowpokeking]

Due state were else I can get 216 gear with set bonus, I would be happy to find out.

But it's not necessary for HM.

 

Then why even drop level appropriate gear made to progress at all.

To encourage people to do it.

 

 

I realize they haven't made any new ops, but they have scaled the ops and gave it some attention, whether or not to squeeze what little part of the player base is left or to retain interest in the future, who knows.

Yes, and you can easily farm EV/KP HM for top tier gears, you don't need to clear SM to learn the mechanics.

 

Why do you refuse to move the slightest from your own original position of this subject anyway? People have tried to rebut or rebuttal or whatever... yet you keep approaching with the same mindset no matter the circumstances.

Because you guys failed to realize the basic purpose of SM ops? Because SM is never that big of a deal for people to do HM? As long as you can get a patient group and spend effort, it's quick to learn the mech. The problem is just for the whole team to execute it well. I know newbies are having tough time in HM, but that got little to do with SM, it was totally because HM is hard and most of the people lack of the patience to let others learn. So the gap is getting bigger and bigger. Why? Because ops is group content, you can't start it without a group.

[merovejec]

Example EC tuning:

 

Are you serious? On TRE I was in a pug that couldnt beat the tanks on EC SM!! Thats how bad the new players are.

[DieAlteHexe]

Leave Story Mode for the people it is for. If others want more of a challenge, they can choose to skip SM and do harder content.

 

So simple, so sensible, so right.

 

Y'know, not everyone can handle the harder content. I don't know why this bothers some of those who can. What does it matter to them if people enjoy "easy mode"? If it's not to "your" liking, carry on with HM/NiM and enjoy being the better player.

[IanArgent]

So simple, so sensible, so right.

 

Y'know, not everyone can handle the harder content. I don't know why this bothers some of those who can. What does it matter to them if people enjoy "easy mode"? If it's not to "your" liking, carry on with HM/NiM and enjoy being the better player.

 

Why not both? That's what I've been suggesting - that SM bosses have mechanics that are "non-fatal" (they don't put you out of the fight until it's over), but if you ignore them, you'll have a time penalty while you come back to the fight from a "penalty zone" or you get hard CC'd or the boss heals (with some limits so the fight doesn't go to infinity).

 

These mechanics would all be boldly telegraphed by targeting icon or ops message. Ideally there would be a hints and tips section to (optionally) read as well.

[DieAlteHexe]

Why not both? That's what I've been suggesting - that SM bosses have mechanics that are "non-fatal" (they don't put you out of the fight until it's over), but if you ignore them, you'll have a time penalty while you come back to the fight from a "penalty zone" or you get hard CC'd or the boss heals (with some limits so the fight doesn't go to infinity).

 

These mechanics would all be boldly telegraphed by targeting icon or ops message. Ideally there would be a hints and tips section to (optionally) read as well.

 

I think it's fine as is. HM/NiM are there for those who want to have a different approach. Honestly, I'm pretty content with the game as it is now. There are bugs I'd love to see squashed but the game itself is just fine by me.

[IanArgent]

I think it's fine as is. HM/NiM are there for those who want to have a different approach. Honestly, I'm pretty content with the game as it is now. There are bugs I'd love to see squashed but the game itself is just fine by me.

 

If there's too big a skill gap between SM and HM+, the HM+ community will die as people don't advance to it.

[gabigool]

So simple, so sensible, so right.

 

Y'know, not everyone can handle the harder content. I don't know why this bothers some of those who can. What does it matter to them if people enjoy "easy mode"? If it's not to "your" liking, carry on with HM/NiM and enjoy being the better player.

 

I think there are two schools of thought.

 

One group of people think everything is fine, and that SM content should have no real difficulty. No possible way to wipe, and it's for people who are just here to see the sights and experience it. People liken it to LFR.

 

The other school of thought is that SM content should have some educational value and act as a useful stepping stone into more difficult levels of content.

 

The problem, as I see it, is that group number 1 would be correct if this were WoW, where there are multiple levels of difficulty. Swtor has provided us with (in the last expansion) two. And they've stated any future ops (lol) content will not have NM mode.

 

SM content has to be both.

[DieAlteHexe]

If there's too big a skill gap between SM and HM+, the HM+ community will die as people don't advance to it.

 

That's what guilds are for, innit? Or groups of friends. Eh, it's a matter of opinion, I think it's pretty good now. Don't care to see any large changes to it.