Buff SM operations

[IanArgent]

I dunno what everyone else is trying to say, but I'm trying to say that, were they to revisit SM Ops, they should put in more mechanics (especially ones that preview the HM mechanics), but the consequences of disrespecting the mechanics should not be immediately lethal (or that death in a boss fight not require the party wipe or win to return to the fight).

[Slowpokeking]

So PUGs can do NiM SnV, but can't clear SM stuff now? Which is it? And for the record, I'm totally fine with poorly coordinated PUGs having to deal with a few wipes in SM content.

 

Some pugs can do, but most of them can't. SM is made to let EVERYONE(or as many as possible) be able to experience the content. Why should it let pugs have pain and suffer ragequit?

[Slowpokeking]

oh please your dps was so high that you had to knockback each 1 time.

 

a little bit more awareness is needed for the illusions but you just had to assign one side to each player, they just had to react a bit quicker to get to them in time now, really no big deal

 

and what does the knockback matter at the kelldragon phase if anyone can facetank his spikes because they have like 15k more hp than intended and are 6 gear tiers higher.

 

now the mechanics of the hm version today are obviously much easier, but the DPS required to down him is much more challengeing than doing it in 3.0 NM

No, we had to cc/knock back around 2-3 times because it was not a guild run, people didn't have much experience of it. Have you done it with PUGS in 3.0?

 

It's still harder fixed than location since those illusions are very deadly.

 

No, the gear advantage was greatly nerfed due to the nerf on our DPS. It deals a lot of damage if you are not careful.

 

Overall DPS? Probably, but 3.0 NIM requires you to have high DPS at each chain phase, along with cc in very short time period and you got to do it 6-7 times during the whole fight, failing it once=wipe. So it's still harder than 4.0 HM because all of the mechanics, nearly none of them could be ignored. The only "harder" part of 4.0 HM is the overall DPS check compare to NIM.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[Slowpokeking]

You understand that what the OP is talking about is not so much a buff, but rather putting back mechanics that were always in SM content that have been removed recently.

 

Are you trying to say that SM content used to be too difficult?

 

And it's going to cause trouble to the pugs, even now, some bosses are headache for them.

 

Rav and ToS? Of course yes.

 

 

I do not think I've ever once heard that a SM fight was too hard for a group to complete simply due to its mechanics.

 

It's always been because of some anomaly encounter with out-of-whack outgoing damage or dps requirements.

 

In all seriousness, was Phase 1 of Kephess the Undying (TFB) a raid stopper? My strong recollection (like 99.99% sure) is that people hated the Phase 2 blue circle mechanic more than the P1 pillar mechanic.

 

What is the one fight that stops pugs due to mechanics (and mechanics alone)? I'm honestly trying to think.

 

Have you even done M&B with pugs? Brontes? Calphayus? Dread Council? All of the mech could kill pugs if they are not sure about the mechanics.

 

 

 

 

 

So I'm curious what is so damning to people in suggesting that perhaps removing the tank swap from Toth/Zorn didn't really accomplish much other than to make sure on HHM day that you're more likely to get a tank that has never done it?

 

Was SM Toth and Zorn a pug killer? I don't recall it ever being so, and that mechanic was in the game for 3 years before it was removed.

 

It wasn't pug killer, but it could cause trouble to some pug groups, and the purpose of SM is to make sure everyone is able to experience the content, if some people have trouble, then it's right to remove them.

 

I really am not sure why "SM content is fine now" with, say, MB tuned as it is - yet somehow putting the pillar mechanic back into Kephess would utterly wreck SM.

 

It doesn't makes sense at all to me.

No, nobody is saying put the mech back to it would wreck SM, but you people are saying that removing the mech is wrecking SM.

[Slowpokeking]

I dunno what everyone else is trying to say, but I'm trying to say that, were they to revisit SM Ops, they should put in more mechanics (especially ones that preview the HM mechanics), but the consequences of disrespecting the mechanics should not be immediately lethal (or that death in a boss fight not require the party wipe or win to return to the fight).

 

Then how is it different? If it's not lethal, and in SM' intensity, it could be healed through usually.

[hunterlue]

No, we had to cc/knock back around 2-3 times because it was not a guild run, people didn't have much experience of it. Have you done it with PUGS in 3.0?

 

It's still harder fixed than location since those illusions are very deadly.

 

No, the gear advantage was greatly nerfed due to the nerf on our DPS. It deals a lot of damage if you are not careful.

 

Overall DPS? Probably, but 3.0 NIM requires you to have high DPS at each chain phase, along with cc in very short time period and you got to do it 6-7 times during the whole fight, failing it once=wipe. So it's still harder than 4.0 HM because all of the mechanics, nearly none of them could be ignored. The only "harder" part of 4.0 HM is the overall DPS check compare to NIM.

 

i pugged it in 3.0 and we facerolled it, just like your group, while i was at 1/7 when beeing lvl 55. stop acting that it was hard in 3.0

[Slowpokeking]

i pugged it in 3.0 and we facerolled it, just like your group, while i was at 1/7 when beeing lvl 55. stop acting that it was hard in 3.0

 

How many of them have done it before? So they couldn't faceroll the current HM SnV?

 

It was harder than the 4.0 HM, simple.

[Slowpokeking]

Seriously, if a group could go through the 3.0 NIM lightning/chain phase correctly along with being able to DPS them out in time, I don't see any reason for this group not being able to do 4.0 HM Styrak smoothly unless they have bad gears in 65. Edited April 29, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[IanArgent]

Then how is it different? If it's not lethal, and in SM' intensity, it could be healed through usually.

 

MEchanics that do not do (direct, lethal) damage. CCs, knockbacks into non-lethal falls, that sort of thing. Stuff that takes the target out of the fight for a bit and makes them reflect on what they did wrong, but doesn't make them sit out the rest of the fight the way a kill does.

[Slowpokeking]

MEchanics that do not do (direct, lethal) damage. CCs, knockbacks into non-lethal falls, that sort of thing. Stuff that takes the target out of the fight for a bit and makes them reflect on what they did wrong, but doesn't make them sit out the rest of the fight the way a kill does.

 

How big would the impact be then?

[gabigool]

And it's going to cause trouble to the pugs, even now, some bosses are headache for them.

 

Rav and ToS? Of course yes.

 

Not because of mechanics. The primary pug killer in ToS was UL. The major issue on UL was required damage. Generally after an attempt or two you could get people to understand how to get behind rocks etc. The boss would enrage at 40%.

 

I have said a number of times I do not believe DPS checks should be required in SM. And, you'll note - the nerf to UL was to the required damage. Not the mechanics.

 

I am not sure Ravagers had a problem in SM aside from the 16 man tuning of torque. And the issue there was the DPS check.

 

So - of course... no.

 

Have you even done M&B with pugs? Brontes? Calphayus? Dread Council? All of the mech could kill pugs if they are not sure about the mechanics.

 

Probably 50+ times. Each. Never really had any problems with any of those fights with the possible exception of post 4.0 Masters damage output. Occasionally people stepped in reaches on Brontes but the fight was pretty easy in SM. took about 2 min to explain. Calphayus I dont recall ever struggling. I doubt I ever saw a pug not clear sm Calphayus. Likewise sm council. Honestly had more trouble on Tyrans in pugs than anything because most pugs have 3 maras and a jug.

 

 

It wasn't pug killer, but it could cause trouble to some pug groups, and the purpose of SM is to make sure everyone is able to experience the content, if some people have trouble, then it's right to remove them.

 

I pug quite a bit. I enjoy it. I do not find it as problematic as you seem to state. I find the sole challenge is simply people are unfamiliar with mechanics in general and generally do not respect them until they die to them once or twice. I'm not sure I see the problem with this. You keep using the phrase "get to experience the fights". I'm not sure why you feel that means the fights should be tank spank.

 

By all means I'm in favor of removing DPS checks to SM content. Likewise SM content does not need to have bosses doing ludicrous outgoing damage. However you've said nothing to support your point that mechanics are in some way a barrier to anyone experiencing SM content. I have seen nothing to support that.

 

 

No, nobody is saying put the mech back to it would wreck SM, but you people are saying that removing the mech is wrecking SM.

 

I do not see anyone saying this. Anywhere. What people are saying is that removing the mechanics from SM has not really added "ease" to the content, and has further separated SM encounters from their HM counterparts with no real upside.

Edited April 29, 2016 by gabigool

[IanArgent]

How big would the impact be then?

 

It makes you sit out a part of the fight (not all of it the way a lethal mechanic would), and it can't be healed through and ignored the way less-than-lethal damage can be. Get stunned for even 10 seconds for missing the indicator, or knocked off a platform and have to trudge back to the fight, people might pay attention to stuff they would otherwise ignore if it was just damage and the healer was carrying them.

 

Game design has evolved in the past 5-10 years, away from brute force and massive damage and towards more finely-tuned "punishments."

[Slowpokeking]

Not because of mechanics. The primary pug killer in ToS was UL. The major issue on UL was required damage. Generally after an attempt or two you could get people to understand how to get behind rocks etc. The boss would enrage at 40%.

 

I have said a number of times I do not believe DPS checks should be required in SM. And, you'll note - the nerf to UL was to the required damage. Not the mechanics.

 

I am not sure Ravagers had a problem in SM aside from the 16 man tuning of torque. And the issue there was the DPS check.

 

So - of course... no.

 

No, pug groups have trouble on all the mech, not just DPS, M&B is the biggest problem in GF. Obviously you've never done it with pugs.

 

 

Probably 50+ times. Each. Never really had any problems with any of those fights with the possible exception of post 4.0 Masters damage output. Occasionally people stepped in reaches on Brontes but the fight was pretty easy in SM. took about 2 min to explain. Calphayus I dont recall ever struggling. I doubt I ever saw a pug not clear sm Calphayus. Likewise sm council. Honestly had more trouble on Tyrans in pugs than anything because most pugs have 3 maras and a jug.

Sorry that's not the case, some people didn't know how to avoid M&B, some tanks couldn't keep the hand's smash away. Calphayus' 2nd and 3rd phase sometimes wipe out pugs because they couldn't carry him to the circle.

 

 

 

I pug quite a bit. I enjoy it. I do not find it as problematic as you seem to state. I find the sole challenge is simply people are unfamiliar with mechanics in general and generally do not respect them until they die to them once or twice. I'm not sure I see the problem with this. You keep using the phrase "get to experience the fights". I'm not sure why you feel that means the fights should be tank spank.

It is when you got bad groups, and some people just ragequit after 1-2 wipes.

 

By all means I'm in favor of removing DPS checks to SM content. Likewise SM content does not need to have bosses doing ludicrous outgoing damage. However you've said nothing to support your point that mechanics are in some way a barrier to anyone experiencing SM content. I have seen nothing to support that.

Sure why not.

 

 

I do not see anyone saying this. Anywhere. What people are saying is that removing the mechanics from SM has not really added "ease" to the content, and has further separated SM encounters from their HM counterparts with no real upside.

 

Didn't people say they are braindead? Removing the mech does make them easier to people lack of experience or skills.

[Slowpokeking]

It makes you sit out a part of the fight (not all of it the way a lethal mechanic would), and it can't be healed through and ignored the way less-than-lethal damage can be. Get stunned for even 10 seconds for missing the indicator, or knocked off a platform and have to trudge back to the fight, people might pay attention to stuff they would otherwise ignore if it was just damage and the healer was carrying them.

 

Game design has evolved in the past 5-10 years, away from brute force and massive damage and towards more finely-tuned "punishments."

 

Lethal is a subjective word, it could be lethal to pug players.

 

Yep, and these are going to trouble the pugs.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Slowpokeking

[IanArgent]

Lethal is a subjective word, it could be lethal to pug players.

 

Yep, and these are going to trouble the pugs.

 

That's the point of making the mechanics non-damaging but time-wasting. OF course, in harder modes, the same mechanic wouldn't just stun you or toss you down a flight of stairs...

 

Remember, death just takes you out of the game for a while. Rather than having the "lesser" mechanics not do enough damage to kill, and thus being ignorable, they instead take the player who ignores them out of the game for a lesser time than death would.

[Glower]

They are too easy

 

Go, faceroll through Operator in Terror from Beyond while in noob PUG raid!

 

 

For real, do not touch SM.

[ivanhedgehog]

yes thats exactly my point. im asking slowpokeking if he thinks that learning the basics of operations in Hardmode is a good idea.

 

I think he is saying you already learn the basics in sm. if you want the intermediates, go to hm. Story mode already teaches what it needs to without running people off. people need to learn HM mechanics in hard mode. A lot of HM groups wont live with that and want everyone to be already for flawless runs.

[Tsillah]

I think he is saying you already learn the basics in sm. if you want the intermediates, go to hm. Story mode already teaches what it needs to without running people off. people need to learn HM mechanics in hard mode. A lot of HM groups wont live with that and want everyone to be already for flawless runs.

 

Currently SM does NOT prepare people for HM at all. Not talking EV HM but even KP HM with the puzzle boss....wait, what puzzle? Exactly. It used to exist in SM. So now groups in fleet chat are asking for people who know the puzzle, because SM teaches you **** all. They took out so many mechanics out of SM that people are just not prepared for HM and also some of the mechanics that are in SM still hardly have any effect so people ignore them.

 

When this game started we had NM, HM and then NiM came. NM was Normal Mode and it was meant to prepare people for HM, however, a lot of players then already complained because a lot of people couldn't handle NM and therefore never got to see the stories....yes, story was an issue already back then. So the mistake BW made was to change NM into SM instead of just adding SM as a tier below NM and now we have SM ops that are too easy to prepare you for the HM versions of the fight but left a couple of fights in there like M&B just to tick the story people off cause SM pugs do fail on that one regularly. It makes no sense because BW can't decided whether SM is really SM or if it should be NM preparing you for HM.

[ivanhedgehog]

Currently SM does NOT prepare people for HM at all. Not talking EV HM but even KP HM with the puzzle boss....wait, what puzzle? Exactly. It used to exist in SM. So now groups in fleet chat are asking for people who know the puzzle, because SM teaches you **** all. They took out so many mechanics out of SM that people are just not prepared for HM and also some of the mechanics that are in SM still hardly have any effect so people ignore them.

 

When this game started we had NM, HM and then NiM came. NM was Normal Mode and it was meant to prepare people for HM, however, a lot of players then already complained because a lot of people couldn't handle NM and therefore never got to see the stories....yes, story was an issue already back then. So the mistake BW made was to change NM into SM instead of just adding SM as a tier below NM and now we have SM ops that are too easy to prepare you for the HM versions of the fight but left a couple of fights in there like M&B just to tick the story people off cause SM pugs do fail on that one regularly. It makes no sense because BW can't decided whether SM is really SM or if it should be NM preparing you for HM.

 

Story mode isnt there to teach you hard mode. use hard mode for that.Story mode shows you the story, the basic flow of the fight. You should not expect expect to go from story mode to hard mode and not have wipes while people learn the mechanics. Story mode will gear you for hm, but it isnt there to teach you hard mode.Just like you dont expect someone that just passed algebra to be able to test out of calculus. algebra isnt there to teach the next level up of math. only to give you the tools to learn.

[Tsillah]

Story mode isnt there to teach you hard mode..

 

That's the first thing I said in my post....doh.

[IanArgent]

Which is why I've suggested they made a mistake by removing mechanics instead of softening them. The mechanics should remain (broadly) similar between all three modes; but they should be more obvious the "lower" the difficulty, and the consequences for disrespecting them should be progressively more painful, immediate, and effective.

[FlyingUsPoo]

The days of long long ago, when you l**arned how to p**y ops via Hard Mode Flash Points... There's not a single Ops boss fight that isn't done ad nauseum in flash points. Using that progression, even the causal player had no need for SM Ops buffs, they were all appropriately geared out. Seem to recall you not even being able to get in unless you met the minimum gear rating.

 

No, we didn't have to walk up hill in the snow to get to school. We didn't have hills, snow or school. Kids today just don't know how good they have it.

[benmas]

Go, faceroll through Operator in Terror from Beyond while in noob PUG raid!

 

 

For real, do not touch SM.

 

annnnd done 6 out of the 8 people had never done TFB and 2 of those had never raided

 

quick explanation from me and cleared first time on SM