Dual Targeting, are we missing something?

[Zamm]

I definitely respect how you addressed what I wrote, some of it seemed to be lashing out at me but some of my post is easily perceived in a hostile manner.

That is not the case, and you responded in a polite but formidable manner.

 

ONTOP of adding in Charlie and Dave!

 

I still, however, disagree with this system.

But I also respect having a choice, and I would definitely agree that the choice between the two is definitely better than no choice at all.

 

But continuing on with the banter!

 

The sticky target is definitely helpful towards the problem of not being able to cast on yourself if you have an ally target.

 

When I provided that argument, I was speaking directly in the sense of having an enemy targetted.

There is no need to clear your target to cast on yourself.

With an ally targetted there is a need.

So having an ally targetted in the game right now, would be the exact same scenario as having a DT.

You would need to clear your target or use a modifier to cast on yourself.

 

My biggest problem with Dual Targetting isn't in Dual Targetting.

It's in how targetting in games already works..

It's clumsy, I have no idea how an efficient targetting system could work..

But the general idea of it is not efficient.

Tab targetting has always sucked, everyone that uses it has just gotten used to how it sucks..

 

Regardless of how you change the use of your targetting button, it just can't have ALL of the targetting functions.

Target Next Enemy

Target Center Screen

Target Previous Enemy

Target Closest Enemy

Target Farthest Enemy

Target Next Friendly

Target Previous Friendly

Target Closest Friendly

Target Farthest Friendly

 

I'm pretty sure everyone gets to hit the button to their hearts desire until they finally arrive at their intended target...

You can click on your team window, you can click on the open world...

But in a lot of instances it's nearly impossible to tell if clicking them will allow you to target them quicker than BUTTON, BUTTON, BUTTON, BUTTON, BUTTON, BU-DANGIT I PASSED HIM, PREVIOUS BUTTON, DANGIT HE ISN'T CONSIDERED THE PREVIOUS ANYMORE, BUTTON, BUTTON, BUTTON..

 

It's not always like the above, but how many times do you have to press a button to target someone?

Or how many buttons could you have pressed in the time you took to click them...

 

That is in the targetting function in general, and has nothing to do with your dual targetting other than there may be times that it can possibly become more bothersome with your dual targetting, but that remains to be seen by me.

 

I don't like the focus system, I was merely explaining that it can be used in a similar way here (Looking back in memory I don't think any other game has actually had a swap system on it.)

 

So technically speaking you can already have any form of two targets that consists of enemies and allies.

But of course there is the matter of the modifier, unless you simply continually swap and heal your target.

 

I would be very open to Dual Targetting if the current standard for targetting wasn't already so clunky...

But like I said, I see no possible way it can be changed to be more efficient...

 

I respect your love for that kind of a system, I do not share that love.

I would be more than happy to agree that it should be brought into the game as a choice, but not as a change.

I believe that is what you're after though, a choice of using it.

[StealthStalker]

I agree entirely with your issues regarding the current tab-targeting. It's definitely subpar.

 

Not only tab targeting, but the issues with clicking on people in the world really need to be fixed as well. Thing is, there's two different factors at play for it. If they're addressed it'll go a long way to fixing the overall feel of targeting.

 

1) When trying to target a player in the world, you have to click directly on their character. It can't be near it, roughly in the place of it, or even on the nameplate (gah!). It has to be directly on them.

 

2) When targeting a player, the actual act of targeting takes place on release of the mouse button, and not when it's pressed.

 

Those two issues with clicking in the world, and the horrible way tab targeting works currently... well, you know what it's like.

 

Also in regards to focus targeting/swap. There's also the ability to "Target your Target's Target", or swap your target with whatever your target is targeting. Assisting your target, if you will.

 

I personally don't find it useful, but that functionality is there too.

 

I'll also go ahead and apologize for the edge of hostility, it just naturally occurs within these threads due to past experiences. I'm trying to be more restrained, but I still have a little ways to go.

 

Thanks for contributing to the discussion.

Edited February 8, 2012 by StealthStalker

[silktor]

'tis a nice idea but don't think it'd work in TOR.

 

Off top of my head I know of one ability that just couldn't work with dual targetting:

 

Combat support cylinder.

 

I mean what would it do, shoot the bad guy or heal the good guy?

 

If you ask an AI this question, it may explode!

[Ashphael]

Also in that thread I gave a link to a couple of videos showing Dual Targeting in action, here are those links:

 

Feel free to mute the music, it may not be to everyone's liking

 

I can't mute the music (that you knew not everyone liked) because there's countries where any video with music is likely to be blocked. Google did not negotiate a deal with rights-holders everywhere.

 

Ah, screw that. Only the US counts, just look at patch-times.

[WarTornPanda]

Update

11/18/2011

 

Well, now that it can be discussed a little more freely. I still stand adamantly by this feature, but it'll probably never exist due to the design of two abilities, and probably more.

 

Trooper: Combat Support Cell, and how it affects Hammer Shot, and the equivalent for Bounty Hunter.

 

*How does this work?

 

If you target a friendly and use Hammer Shot, you heal them.

If you target an enemy and use Hammer Shot, you damage them.

 

It's basically "Holy Shock" or "Penance" in the FAQ. With that one ability, we really couldn't have true dual targeting because it's a base class ability. I'm a bit disappointed to say the least, but at least it's not an insurmountable fix. The question is, would the fix ever even be considered?

 

I'd much rather have two base free ability (like the other 4 healers), than waste the potential of Dual Targeting. What do I mean by that? Here's how the Operative compares:

 

Free Attack: Rifle Shot

Free Heal: Diagnostic Scan

 

Yeah, two different abilities, but in both examples they do the same thing: Free "attack" and free "heal".

 

I'll be responding some time in the near future regarding my experience playing various classes, and why dual targeting would have made them all a more enjoyable experience.

 

*Note: This is how this ability worked (when named Kolto Cell), I have not seen it actually in action with its rename and slight change.

 

I don't see how this is any different from a "leech" which you said was okay before this...

 

Q. And what about (wow examples) things like Penance or Holy Shock, where the spell does different things depending on if the target is friendly or hostile?

 

A. You're correct, those abilities would not work in a Dual Target environment. At the same time, new abilities do open up so it's a bit of give and take. Leeching abilities, such as life drains that channel HP from your enemy target to your friendly, and similar effects become available.

Edited February 8, 2012 by WarTornPanda

[Falkenherz]

I would be happy to have such a system. At least, an autotargeting laso for melee attacks would be already half of the cake.

[StealthStalker]

I don't see how this is any different from a "leech" which you said was okay before this...

 

Hammer shot works like Penance did in WoW. It does one or the other depending on what you have targeted. If you target a friendly, it heals them. If you target an enemy, it does damage. You can only have one target at a time (sans Focus Target), so one effect or the other.

 

A "Leech" ability would drain life from one target, and heal the other target with it at the same time. It doesn't do one or the other, it does both.

 

For example, here's how an ability from WAR reads, one of the "Leech" abilities.

 

Requires 25 Soul Essence per second. You repeatedly assault an enemy, shredding their soul energy and twisting it to your own purposes. You strike the target up to four times over 3 seconds, dealing X damage per hit. Each hit heals your defensive target for 350% of the damage that was dealt.

 

So the one ability will hit your enemy target for X damage, and simultaneously heal your friendly target for 350% of that damage.

Edited February 8, 2012 by StealthStalker

[StealthStalker]

'tis a nice idea but don't think it'd work in TOR.

 

Off top of my head I know of one ability that just couldn't work with dual targetting:

 

Combat support cylinder.

 

I mean what would it do, shoot the bad guy or heal the good guy?

 

If you ask an AI this question, it may explode!

 

Would work fine if the ability you linked were modified. If you check the FAQ (and later the Update), this issue was addressed.

[StealthStalker]

I can't mute the music (that you knew not everyone liked) because there's countries where any video with music is likely to be blocked. Google did not negotiate a deal with rights-holders everywhere.

 

Ah, screw that. Only the US counts, just look at patch-times.

 

That's too bad, I'll see about re-uploading it music-free sometime just for this.

[ViskarNogame]

This post was fairly active on the previous boards, so I'm bringing it back on the other side. Minor adjustments here and there due to the original post existing during beta and the NDA, otherwise it's in its entirety. Be sure to scan the FAQ located in the latter half of the post, it will probably cover most inquiries.

 

So what exactly is Dual Targeting? You have 2 targets at all times, one offensive and one defensive. That's it, it's that simple. Any offensive ability (CC, Damage) is used on the offensive target. Any defensive ability (Heals, buffs) are used on the defensive target.

 

You can freely change these targets with any normal targeting method such as clicking, unit frames, macros, or assisting (or "aiding" to assist someone's friendly target). No macros are required, no keybinds, no unnecessary actions.

 

Here is a link to a thread I created on the RIFT boards back in January, on the very same topic. That thread received an enormous amount of support, as well as quite a few who didn't understand it. Thus, it's a great read.

 

Also in that thread I gave a link to a couple of videos showing Dual Targeting in action, here are those links:

 

Feel free to mute the music, it may not be to everyone's liking

 

Things to note about the game and my UI, if you aren't familiar with it:

 

At the middle of the screen, you see two hot bars. Below that are the Unitframes.

 

The central frame is my Player frame, my HP and Energy pool.

The left frame (green rectangle with names/buffs above) is my "Defensive" target. This is where any target I select that is considered Friendly is shown. Friendly players, NPC's, etc.

The right frame (red rectangle with names/buffs above it) is my "Offensive" target. This is where any target I select that is considered hostile is shown. Enemy players, enemy pets, and neutral targets will also be displayed here.

Below all of that are my Raid Frames, for my current raid group. This is where I predominantly acquire my friendly targets.

 

Selecting a friendly, or enemy target has no bearing on the opposite target, and I do not have to use any macro or 'hotkey' to set either target. It's a click on the player in game, or by using an /assist or /aid macro, tab target, etc. Throughout the encounter I continuously change enemy/friendly targets to Res/Damage/heal as needed. Again, this has no bearing on the opposite target.

 

You can't accomplish this on the fly with the current targeting system in RIFT, so please let me have my dual targets and you can keep your outdated focus/target of target if you wish. I'll stick to my planning ahead and pro-active targeting.

 

This is something that's extremely important, and anyone familiar with how combat is going to work in the game (if you've seen the footage released, or have play tested it yourself at a Gaming Convention), should support whole-heartedly.

 

Common Misconceptions:

 

Remember, the following quotes were mostly in regards to RIFT. I'm not sure if SWTOR has Focus targeting or not, but this is just part of the "FAQ/Misconceptions" that may appear in discussion, thus I'm including it.

 

Q. Why do I need Dual Targeting when I have mouseover healing? Seems like it's better.

 

A. Dual Targeting and Mouse-over casting are not mutually exclusive. Mouse-over casting is a great feature, and I support it 100%. If anything, both of these mechanics compliment each other very well.

 

 

Q. Isn't your focus target the same thing as dual targeting? I've been wondering about this for a long time. Maybe I'm understanding it all wrong, but focus targeting seems to be exactly what you all want and its in the game already.

 

A. When you set a focus target, what does it personally require you to do? Key bind? Macro? Right click/set focus target? How do you go about setting yours? Once you have it set, how do you cast spells or abilities on that target? Do you have a modifier keybind (shift/alt/control) so that when you use that modifier, any ability key pressed is then used on your focus target?

 

Dual Targeting allows you to have a "focus target", without ever having to waste an extra keypress or macro/bind to change the said target, or to cast on said target.

 

It's basically a dynamic focus target that you change when you want. You can freely change your offensive or defensive target without affecting the other. No extra keybinds required, no extra work for selecting or casting.

 

 

Q. So with dual targeting, you'd be limited to one friendly and one enemy target, right?

 

A. Yes. That's the downside if any, the next point is that: It can exist next to a ToT or focus target if you wanted it to. Although, that could lead to crowding.

 

 

Q. PvE wise, I can't think of anything more than a couple gimmicks where a dps would need DT at all. Healing, maybe, but usually only to keep an eye on certain enemy/boss cast bar, and even then focus works just fine. Tanking, maybe if there's a specific party member you want to always be ready to protect (pally bubble?), but even that seems like a focus macro would work just as well.

 

A. One thing to keep in mind is that there are a very large variety of defensive abilities, and they may not be on such a cooldown as the pally abilities. So yeah, while focus targeting wouldn't be so bad for the Paladin, another class may make extremely good use of it.

 

eg: In Warhammer, Guard was a 50% reduction in damage for the targeted friendly player, in PvE it was the same but with an addition of transfering half the threat to the tank as well. It had no CD and could be swapped instantly. This meant a tank in PvP (or PvE even) can actively swap his guard depending on the situation, and use it much more frequently than a Paladin would have used his abilities.

 

Dual Targeting is only as useful as you allow it to be, just like some people play WoW without even utilizing the focus target system I'm sure. Whether you use it actively to cast on both targets, or if you simply use it to keep the target reticule over a friendly player to know where a specific group member is at any given time.

 

So, it's tough to say just how useful Dual Targeting truly would be for any specific class or player.

 

 

Q. And what about (wow examples) things like Penance or Holy Shock, where the spell does different things depending on if the target is friendly or hostile?

 

A. You're correct, those abilities would not work in a Dual Target environment. At the same time, new abilities do open up so it's a bit of give and take. Leeching abilities, such as life drains that channel HP from your enemy target to your friendly, and similar effects become available.

 

So, perhaps Holy Shock could then be adapted to work in tandem and affect both friendly/enemy at the same time, and speccing into one tree or another determines how potent each half of the ability is.

 

This is probably the only direct argument against Dual Targeting, but I feel there's a reasonable way to fix this issue. The pros far, far outweigh the cons.

 

 

Q. There's no hybrid abilities that make use of such a mechanic. So why is Dual Targeting needed?

 

A. From what I've been able to gather nearly every class will have an abundance of offensive abilities, even if they're primarily specced to do a defensive/support role. I'm going to assume even if you have a majority of offensive abilities, you will also have access to a few defensive ones as well.

 

What this means is that in-between your normal duties, you may have other things to do. Healers may have CC, tanks may have buffs/defensive abilities for friendlies. If that doesn't scream hybrid, what does?

 

As mentioned directly above, it's up to you as an individual to utilize it effectively or not.

 

 

Q. Dual targeting is complicated, I don't think it will be very newbie friendly.

A. It's more complicated than focus targeting, target of target, or cast through target mechanics?

 

Select a friendly target, and any defensive ability is cast on them; select an enemy target and any hostile action is cast on them.

 

This is more complicated than needing to use a hotkey to 1) set the focus target, 2) cast on the focus target with the new modifier that's required to be used with any future keypress.

 

What about having to rely on the person you have targeted making the choice for you because you only have access to Cast-forwarding? What if the mob you have targeted is currently targeting someone that isn't in danger of needing a heal... so on and do forth.

 

I'm not quite sure you understand the concept, please try to browse back over the information provided.

 

 

Q. Dual Targeting makes things too easy

 

A. Nearly every game today uses Focus Targeting, Target of Target, and Cast through Targeting. Frankly, the latter two make things "too easy". Cast through targeting means you always cast on whatever your target is. You make no choice, you just press the button and hope for the best. At least with focus targeting one has to choose their own targets.

 

The problem is you're battling the UI for half of the time as you need to setup a focus target and then can only cast your abilities on that target (using another modifier) unless you change it again, with your hotkey or macro.

 

So tell me, what are you here for? Are we here to play the game, enjoy combat/encounters, or are we here to battle the interface? I know in my head who, or what I want to cast on relatively quickly. The UI hindering this by being bulky and requiring unnecessary actions doesn't make any sense. So please, less fighting the UI and more actual fighting enemy units.

 

 

Q. Can you give more examples of how Dual Targeting can be used by anyone, not just a healer?

 

A. Of course, here are a couple more examples.

 

Tanks & Guarding

 

In PvP for example, as a tank you can play a variety of ways. You can be support/protection for your backfield, or you can play offensively while on the melee train, yet you still have access to guard.

 

In the first situation, you will pro-actively guard the people that you know will be attacked or are currently under attack. You can swap this guard as needed on the fly and quickly because dual targeting doesn't require macros/keybinds. All the while you're still attacking the enemy targets freely, to CC, damage, and harass as applicable.

 

In the second situation, the same principle applies but you may not be needing to change your guard target as often. Keeping the person you're guarding targeted though, while on the train, will help you keep track of their movements due to the easily identifiable reticule they have above them.

 

DPS

 

It's very important for everyone to know where some people are in any given battle. As a DPS, your primary goal is to kill things. That doesn't mean you can't provide help and support for your squishy backfield when the need arises. With Dual Targeting you can easily target someone friendly to get your reticule and a bearing on their location. Keeping tabs on your healer and knowing exactly where they are when they call for help can be invaluable. This can be done while you are doing your normal duties and DPS'ing the enemy.

 

Not only can you keep track of your squishies or important targets, but you can easily just keep track of your Guard. Knowing where your guard is at all times is very important for a DPS class who has the luxury of someone Guarding them. So you keep on keepin' on, while keeping an eye on your Guard so you're never out of position.

 

---

 

In the end, I hope this feature is already included and this is just a post that's inconsequential. If it isn't yet, let's hope it's something they could seriously consider even though we're already on the cusp of release. Whether that means some time post launch, or surprise us prior to that.

 

 

Update

11/18/2011

 

Well, now that it can be discussed a little more freely. I still stand adamantly by this feature, but it'll probably never exist due to the design of two abilities, and probably more.

 

Trooper: Combat Support Cell, and how it affects Hammer Shot, and the equivalent for Bounty Hunter.

 

 

 

*How does this work?

 

If you target a friendly and use Hammer Shot, you heal them.

If you target an enemy and use Hammer Shot, you damage them.

 

It's basically "Holy Shock" or "Penance" in the FAQ. With that one ability, we really couldn't have true dual targeting because it's a base class ability. I'm a bit disappointed to say the least, but at least it's not an insurmountable fix. The question is, would the fix ever even be considered?

 

I'd much rather have two base free ability (like the other 4 healers), than waste the potential of Dual Targeting. What do I mean by that? Here's how the Operative compares:

 

Free Attack: Rifle Shot

Free Heal: Diagnostic Scan

 

Yeah, two different abilities, but in both examples they do the same thing: Free "attack" and free "heal".

 

I'll be responding some time in the near future regarding my experience playing various classes, and why dual targeting would have made them all a more enjoyable experience.

 

*Note: This is how this ability worked (when named Kolto Cell), I have not seen it actually in action with its rename and slight change.

 

A lot more people would know what "Dual Targeting" is if you called it a "Defensive Target". They actually had that feature -perfect- in WAR.

[StealthStalker]

A lot more people would know what "Dual Targeting" is if you called it a "Defensive Target". They actually had that feature -perfect- in WAR.

 

I do refer to it as Offensive and Defensive targeting throughout the post. Dual Targeting has been the name adopted throughout discussing it for, well, a couple of years now. It appears the thread title itself can't be changed at this point.

 

All of my examples (including the Video) are taken from Warhammer.

 

Also, can you nip the entire OP quote? It's a bit large.

 

Thanks for the suggestion, though.

Edited February 8, 2012 by StealthStalker

[Magnusgillcrest]

If nothing else a 'Target through' would be good. Ie. You target the tank, offensive stuff hits the target he's hitting, defensive stuff hits the tank. Coming from EQ2 I constantly try to kill the tank by hitting my offensive spells (nothing happens )

 

I whole heartedly believe in this. Though As I recall, It was called "implied target"

 

Basically if you target a player, tank or not, and used offensive abilities, those abilities would hit your target's target if it was unfriendly. Defensive moves would land on your friendly target.

 

EQ2 never gets it's just praise for what it did right.

[StealthStalker]

I whole heartedly believe in this. Though As I recall, It was called "implied target"

 

Basically if you target a player, tank or not, and used offensive abilities, those abilities would hit your target's target if it was unfriendly. Defensive moves would land on your friendly target.

 

EQ2 never gets it's just praise for what it did right.

 

I dislike cast-through features immensely, because I like having control over my targets, both offensive and defensive. Just because I'm healing someone doesn't mean their choice of target is what I should also be attacking if given the chance.

 

Anytime a situation occurs where there are more than one offensive or defensive targets available to choose from, the usefulness of Implied Targeting goes right out of the window. This happens in both PvE or PvP.

 

With Dual Targeting, I independently choose what Offensive or Defensive target I have is. That can easily be my target's target, but I still have to make the choice to do so via assisting.

Edited February 9, 2012 by StealthStalker

[Xenich]

Any true hardcore gamer is going to do what he can within the limits of the game he or she chooses not demand the game changes to suit their whim. Sure, it'd be a nice addition, but it isn't a necessity.

 

Any experienced gamer understands when a mechanic is poorly designed and poorly implemented and makes suggestions to improve it.

 

The current system is ridiculous for its mechanics of play. Can people "master" the system? Sure, but what idiot wastes their time jumping through hoops in a system that is obviously flawed rather than simply making a suggestion of reason?

 

There are mechanics for some classes that are severely hampered by the interface and targeting system. For instance, with the operative healing, you rely heavily on reactive abilities to open up short timed bonus activations. Problem is, you have to constantly jump back and forth between your damage targets and your healing targets to do so. This results in you spending an enormous amount of time either playing whack a mole with your mouse or fast keying back and forth between targets to do damage, then do a heal on your target.

 

There comes a point where the input impedes the play. The skill should be in the selection and use of your skills as it concerns the dynamics of the fight, not how fast someone can move their mouse or spam keys, that is how action junkie arcade play is designed and even then, those systems have flexible and logical inputs.

 

Most other games have thought put into their targeting system that accentuates the combat style and focus of the skills in the game. This game functions like a first generation MMO, which would be fine, but most first generation MMO's had combat systems that were much slower and allowed for target switching without requiring the player to be jacked up on red bull.

 

The biggest problem with this game is that its user input and interface function as if it was console port, not a PC game.

[Karandor]

This was one of the best parts of WAR.

 

 

Defensive targets are a fantastic feature and lets you do cool things like lifetaps that transfer from offensive target to defensive target.

[Meithar]

I wonder why this feature is not in every new MMO. I was exposed to this wonderful mechanic with Vanguard: Saga of Heroes and it really made the combat system more fun and engaging. You free up a lot of time in a fight when you can go from attacking your Mob to Heal / Buff a party member without having to fumble with clicking all over the UI to switch from enemy to friend and back. Add in Healer Hotbars, which Vanguard also had through Custom UI's and I would be totally happy with SWTOR's combat.

[LVDave]

I believe BioWare could have implemented dual targetting before SW:TOR hit final release since EA merged BioWare with Mythic, and BioWare should've had access to Mythic's (and Games Workshop's) IP in Warhammer Online. I also started a thread in the Suggestion Box forum regarding abilities being disabled until your target is valid and applicable which, then, would cause the ability to light-up and become enabled just like in Warhammer Online.

[gwrtheyn]

Warhammer Online has this feature and I really liked it when I was playing that MMO.

 

I think having a Focus target is less generally useful but it works in specific situations. I don't think its well implemented in SWTOR.

 

I find the lack of Target of Target to be a glaring omission.

 

focus target resets/buggs all the time in warzones(alderan)

 

the warhammer dual target was great

the "->" to target marker where great too,1 lag and i have no idea where my guard target is(mara -> charge most of the time)

[terminova]

No, we aren't missing anything without the inclusion of dual targeting.

[Almar]

Seems alright, I would personally never use it, I don't find switching targets to be time consuming difficult or complicated. I actually find dual targeting to be more complicated and less efficient than just switching targets =/

[StealthStalker]

Seems alright, I would personally never use it, I don't find switching targets to be time consuming difficult or complicated. I actually find dual targeting to be more complicated and less efficient than just switching targets =/

 

Less complicated? Okay, maybe if you have never seen the mechanic in action. 5 minutes later after encountering the system I think you'd change your mind.

 

Less efficient? Never having to re-target the enemy target for an offensive ability, for the entire fight if you were the healer when throwing out random offensive abilities? That is less efficient than swapping targets every single offensive cast?

Edited April 18, 2012 by StealthStalker