Item Stack Resale Exploit

[RPHero]

I didn't see any bribe of 30 days?

 

Only players without a sub will see that message it even comes up in the launcher if you don't have a current subscription method.

[Ghisallo]

To be fair there hasn't been a huge influx of people complaining/posting about getting innocently caught out to the point it might affect sub numbers ( unlike say nerfing companions and the amount of posts we got about that ).

 

This leads me to believe the innocent % is very minimal indeed making it quite manageable for them to address in a timely manner. Two people I've seen in this thread get replies. One was a sorry hereh ave some free game time we're wrong and the other was, to paraphrase "technically you're right - now move along" with no apology or recompense.

So it seems they've got the man power to look into these things quite quickly and in a reasonable manner ( not just auto recompense anyone who complains else the obvious person taking advantage of the exploit would have got the same treatment as the truly innocent player ).

I believe this would only be the case if the amount of complaints received was on the low side else that timeline or difference in treatment would be longer and more common.

 

Well I have seen more than a few on the forms here and on Reddits. Next keep in mind that, at least in my experience, let players don't post on forums. So while I would not say more innocent people got nailed than guilty I think it pretty much inexcusable in some circumstances. Example someone is one of the "random" people sent mail in the laundering scheme? While personally against guilty until proven innocent, I can accept it in that case because you can at least draw a connection via an investigation with an exploiter. It's still wrong, but understandable I guess.

 

However when you have someone being suspended simply because they bought items on the GTN and then sold them for credits and they have to prove/petition their innocence? Sorry but that is not only lazy and wrong but arguably self destructive as it can lead to cancelled accounts and a bad reputation.

[Ghisallo]

I think you're maybe confusing greed with temptation? Subtle difference.

 

Simply one paper on Evolutionary Psychology which says that's not right. http://public.wsu.edu/~taflinge/biology.html#greed

 

We do all have the greed instinct. The difference between us and animals however is that our reasoning mind, in a homogeneous society, will have us not give in to greed as being part of that community is higher up on the ladder of things we need for survival.

 

Now look at a video game where everyone is anonymous and where ultimately you do not need any other player in the same way you may need your neighbor in a rl community. Heck where arguably there is nothibg you could call a community. The survival mechanism that keeps greed in check is very much degraded.

 

You can see this same dynamic in rl conflicts, especially sectarian conflicts or those still dealing with tribal divisions etc as well as they don't see the other side as being part of "their" community.

[Fireswraith]

You know it's sad to say, but a 7 day ban (for a first time offense) and getting to keep the billions of credits you made isn't actually a bad deal. Can I get a billion credits for not exploiting?

[AlrikFassbauer]

Now look at a video game where everyone is anonymous and where ultimately you do not need any other player in the same way you may need your neighbor in a rl community. Heck where arguably there is nothibg you could call a community. The survival mechanism that keeps greed in check is very much degraded.

 

So - we all are becoming animals again - at least regarding Greed.

[Transcendent]

Simply one paper on Evolutionary Psychology which says that's not right. http://public.wsu.edu/~taflinge/biology.html#greed

 

We do all have the greed instinct. The difference between us and animals however is that our reasoning mind, in a homogeneous society, will have us not give in to greed as being part of that community is higher up on the ladder of things we need for survival.

 

Now look at a video game where everyone is anonymous and where ultimately you do not need any other player in the same way you may need your neighbor in a rl community. Heck where arguably there is nothibg you could call a community. The survival mechanism that keeps greed in check is very much degraded.

 

You can see this same dynamic in rl conflicts, especially sectarian conflicts or those still dealing with tribal divisions etc as well as they don't see the other side as being part of "their" community.

 

Entirely depends on which part of the psyche is at work, id / ego or superego. I'm willing to put a laymans bet on the id being the prevalent part dominating when it comes to greed. If other areas of the psyche are dominating, then it comes down to temptation.

 

Also, evolutionary psychology isn't always the defining factor. That comes down to the part where you mention the reasoning mind, but it is technically a lot more involved than that.

[Quraswren]

You know it's sad to say, but a 7 day ban (for a first time offense) and getting to keep the billions of credits you made isn't actually a bad deal. Can I get a billion credits for not exploiting?

 

No kidding. I'd take a billion for doing the right thing since it's apparent some are getting to keep millions/billions for doing the wrong thing. (and you'd have to be a fool if you think a 7 day ban is going to stop anyone from ever exploiting again as they keep the spoils)

[Jadescythe]

No kidding. I'd take a billion for doing the right thing since it's apparent some are getting to keep millions/billions for doing the wrong thing. (and you'd have to be a fool if you think a 7 day ban is going to stop anyone from ever exploiting again as they keep the spoils)

 

People getting banned are losing everything. Credits, PvE comms, PvP comms, etc. The only people keeping stuff are the ones that avoided detection and had no punishment at all.

[Astaldoath]

the people who got caught arent keeping anything, trust me i know people and they lost millions

[MaXarr]

The punishments given out left people with much of the things they stole. A valiant attempt by the game to punish exploiters but people still won in the end. Edited December 18, 2015 by MaXarr

[Spamfritter]

People getting banned are losing everything. Credits, PvE comms, PvP comms, etc. The only people keeping stuff are the ones that avoided detection and had no punishment at all.

 

I know several people that just farmed companion affection, or **** only decorations. They didn't make a single credit or sell anything on the GTN for this. They lost millions and millions of credits and all their bounty broker and gree weapons with the mods in them that were purchased years ago. They even took one guys digitizer cubes. Why take the warzone commendations or **** they bought legitimately years ago? I understand taking the ill gotten gains, but if you didn't make credits, sell **** on the GTN or clone crystals, get gear etc. isn't this a bit harsh?

 

What kind of a sick ***** takes the Gree digitizer cubes.

 

I know subscribers who are quitting the game in droves or are thinking about leaving because of how this has been handled, and due to all the bugs in the game which BioWare takes no responsibility for. BioWare hasn't exactly done a bang up job managing this game since the beginning, but the current level of quality control is inexcusable.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Spamfritter

[CrazyCT]

I know several people that just farmed companion affection, or **** only decorations. They didn't make a single credit or sell anything on the GTN for this. They lost millions and millions of credits and all their bounty broker and gree weapons with the mods in them that were purchased years ago. They even took one guys digitizer cubes. Why take the warzone commendations or **** they bought legitimately years ago? I understand taking the ill gotten gains, but if you didn't make credits, sell **** on the GTN or clone crystals, get gear etc. isn't this a bit harsh?

 

What kind of a sick ***** takes the Gree digitizer cubes.

 

I know subscribers who are quitting the game in droves or are thinking about leaving because of how this has been handled, and due to all the bugs in the game which BioWare takes no responsibility for. BioWare hasn't exactly done a bang up job managing this game since the beginning, but the current level of quality control is inexcusable.

A couple of things-

 

• So they DID exploit, even if it was only for personal gain?
  
• You believe them when they admit to cheating, but then you trust that they didn't use it for making money?
  
• Millions and millions? Plus items and WZ comms? Personally, I'd have perma-banned, but I really hate thieves
  
• Droves? How many people are in 1 drove? And you know several droves are leaving?
  
• Hyperbole much?
  

[Stoofa]

I know several people that just farmed companion affection, or **** only decorations. They didn't make a single credit or sell anything on the GTN for this. They lost millions and millions of credits and all their bounty broker and gree weapons with the mods in them that were purchased years ago. They even took one guys digitizer cubes. Why take the warzone commendations or **** they bought legitimately years ago? I understand taking the ill gotten gains, but if you didn't make credits, sell **** on the GTN or clone crystals, get gear etc. isn't this a bit harsh?

 

What kind of a sick ***** takes the Gree digitizer cubes.

 

I know subscribers who are quitting the game in droves or are thinking about leaving because of how this has been handled, and due to all the bugs in the game which BioWare takes no responsibility for. BioWare hasn't exactly done a bang up job managing this game since the beginning, but the current level of quality control is inexcusable.

 

Because there should be a punishment.

It's not a gamble - exploit and if you get caught you just lose all the things you exploited. In this case there are real consequences to cheating.

It's like going through the old red and green channels at passport control. If you were over limit and went through Green and were stopped you didn't just get a slap on the hand and have to hand-over the items you were over, you were also slapped with a fine.

It should never be that the only punishment for being found exploiting is to lose the exploited stuff. If that is the only punishment then we might as well all exploit as some of us will be lucky, bit get caught.

 

If I say to you - if you're caught exploiting I will remove every thing you exploited and I'll ban you for a week. Well to me that says "go for it". If I get caught, no biggie - I lose all I cheated and I take a week's rest.

If however I say to you - If you get caught exploiting then I shall remove every thing you exploited plus I'll remove any item that could have been exploited and any credits that might have been exploited and then I'll ban you for a week.

Well that says "Ooo, consequence time - maybe I won't do it".

[ArthasDaracon]

The biggest problem with how this is being handled isn't in the banning of the people who exploited. It the overzealous crazed ban hammering that is going on with people that are "Suspected" of helping hide exploited credits. People being banned for selling GTN items at Above average prices to someone who exploited, people who had credits from items they sold on the GTN that were legitimate sales but the person who bought it used exploited credits have also in several cases that I am aware of had credits taken away, and not had the item they sold returned to them as well.

 

The problem isn't that exploiters got punished, they should have. The problem is that people who didn't even do anything are being caught in a crazed gestapo witch hunt by Bioware. When this entire thing is Biowares fault to begin with for allowing ridiculously stupid bugs like this to make it to the live server because of lack of testing, if they bothered to ever open up PTS anymore crap like this would get caught much more often.

[Theeko]

The biggest problem with how this is being handled isn't in the banning of the people who exploited. It the overzealous crazed ban hammering that is going on with people that are "Suspected" of helping hide exploited credits. People being banned for selling GTN items at Above average prices to someone who exploited, people who had credits from items they sold on the GTN that were legitimate sales but the person who bought it used exploited credits have also in several cases that I am aware of had credits taken away, and not had the item they sold returned to them as well.

 

The problem isn't that exploiters got punished, they should have. The problem is that people who didn't even do anything are being caught in a crazed gestapo witch hunt by Bioware. When this entire thing is Biowares fault to begin with for allowing ridiculously stupid bugs like this to make it to the live server because of lack of testing, if they bothered to ever open up PTS anymore crap like this would get caught much more often.

 

But Menace is a witch hunter extraordinaire he knows everything and sees everything in this game

[Xo-Lara]

I believe that some people forget that by playing the game they agree to play by Bioware's rules. Even if they are arbitrary rules, you have agreed to play by them by continuing to use the service. I believe it is also a legally binding agreement to play by their terms and agreements. That being said, stripping so much was an attempt to make it feel like punishment not simply remove items. It would sound as if it has served it's punitive function properly.

 

Whether or not it was Bioware's job to fix the bug, it was never their job to make people hold themselves to better standard of conduct. If you understand the concept of cheating well enough to quibble over semantics and nuanced meanings, you understand enough to know you weren't supposed to do it. You can do it any way, but it's not completely without consequence. Sometimes you'll get away with it and sometimes you'll lose more than you gained. It's a gamble. If you can't afford to lose, don't gamble in the first place.

[ArthasDaracon]

I believe that some people forget that by playing the game they agree to play by Bioware's rules. Even if they are arbitrary rules, you have agreed to play by them by continuing to use the service. I believe it is also a legally binding agreement to play by their terms and agreements. That being said, stripping so much was an attempt to make it feel like punishment not simply remove items. It would sound as if it has served it's punitive function properly.

 

Whether or not it was Bioware's job to fix the bug, it was never their job to make people hold themselves to better standard of conduct. If you understand the concept of cheating well enough to quibble over semantics and nuanced meanings, you understand enough to know you weren't supposed to do it. You can do it any way, but it's not completely without consequence. Sometimes you'll get away with it and sometimes you'll lose more than you gained. It's a gamble. If you can't afford to lose, don't gamble in the first place.

 

Again this would all be a totally valid point if they weren't handling it so badly that they are punishing people who didn't even exploit and obeyed the terms of service as well.

[Xo-Lara]

Punishing cheaters and not cheaters happened at the same time because of the same problem, but they are actually two separate issues. Punishing people that didn't do anything is not cool but at the same time, given the extent of the exploiting it's hard to imagine it not happening. A big system combined with with a big exploitation makes for a big problem to sort out. What the people who didn't do anything need is a channel for appeal and some kind of compensation for things that cannot be returned. That doesn't, however, affect the nature of the situation for the blatant exploiters at all. They don't get off because someone who shouldn't have gotten tagged lost something.

[Calinaph]

I know several people that just farmed companion affection, or **** only decorations. They didn't make a single credit or sell anything on the GTN for this. They lost millions and millions of credits and all their bounty broker and gree weapons with the mods in them that were purchased years ago. They even took one guys digitizer cubes. Why take the warzone commendations or **** they bought legitimately years ago? I understand taking the ill gotten gains, but if you didn't make credits, sell **** on the GTN or clone crystals, get gear etc. isn't this a bit harsh?

 

Good.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Calinaph

[Ghisallo]

I know several people that just farmed companion affection, or **** only decorations. They didn't make a single credit or sell anything on the GTN for this. They lost millions and millions of credits and all their bounty broker and gree weapons with the mods in them that were purchased years ago. They even took one guys digitizer cubes. Why take the warzone commendations or **** they bought legitimately years ago? I understand taking the ill gotten gains, but if you didn't make credits, sell **** on the GTN or clone crystals, get gear etc. isn't this a bit harsh?

 

What kind of a sick ***** takes the Gree digitizer cubes.

 

I know subscribers who are quitting the game in droves or are thinking about leaving because of how this has been handled, and due to all the bugs in the game which BioWare takes no responsibility for. BioWare hasn't exactly done a bang up job managing this game since the beginning, but the current level of quality control is inexcusable.

 

Just a question. If you commit the crime of theft irl and get arrested are you just ordered to pay restitution or do you get fines, probation, jail time.

 

So you have graduated penalties just like irl. In real life an offender might get a short jail sentence, probation and a fine on top of restitution. If your prior points score is high enough you can even end up getting state prison time (perma bans).

 

Simply taking away the ill gotten gains is not a punishment or deterent. All doing that does is make the person say "oh well, maybe I will get away with it next time." A punishment by definition needs to "hurt" and the certainty + severity here is certainly going to serve as a deterrent. First by make people pissed off that they got slammed to leave on their own if they were not banned as this will reduce the number of potential future exploiters and by serving as an example to those who would think about exploiting but have yet to do so.

Edited December 18, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Cakellene]

Just a question. If you commit the crime of theft irl and get arrested are you just ordered to pay restitution or do you get fines, probation, jail time.

 

So you have graduated penalties just like irl. In real life an offender might get a short jail sentence, probation and a fine on top of restitution. If your prior points score is high enough you can even end up getting state prison time (perma bans).

 

Simply taking away the ill gotten gains is not a deterent.

 

There's a difference between restitution and emptying your bank account.

[Ghisallo]

There's a difference between restitution and emptying your bank account.

 

Well first, there are indeed many cases irl where fines and costs would end up emptying a bank account of many defendants, even middle class ones, if not for the fact that the government has set up payment plans to avoid the defendant's from going bankrupt and becoming homeless. I know people who were sentenced to 2 years probation and 3 years later were still on probation because they had not paid off the fines and costs yet.

 

That you have to keep in mind the fact this is a subscription based game for this expac (f2p not being able to access it). As such they have to limit "jail time" (bans/suspensions) because they want to make money off of those that won't quit over the issue. There is a point (I would say maybe 2-3 weeks), where a suspension in essence becomes a ban because the suspended person simply moves on. As a payment plan would be non-sensical the only option is taking it all at once.

[Cakellene]

Well first, there are indeed many cases irl where fines and costs would end up emptying a bank account of many defendants, even middle class ones, if not for the fact that the government has set up payment plans to avoid the defendant's from going bankrupt and becoming homeless. I know people who were sentenced to 2 years probation and 3 years later were still on probation because they had not paid off the fines and costs yet.

 

That you have to keep in mind the fact this is a subscription based game for this expac (f2p not being able to access it). As such they have to limit "jail time" (bans/suspensions) because they want to make money off of those that won't quit over the issue. There is a point (I would say maybe 2-3 weeks), where a suspension in essence becomes a ban because the suspended person simply moves on. As a payment plan would be non-sensical the only option is taking it all at once.

 

If they have to consider losing sub from long bans, they should also consider losing subs from stripping a toon of everything.

[Neglience]

Could we get some more information on this ? If we take the Credit price as an indicator it seems that there are still billions of credits in the system that were made with the exploit.

[eGraced]

I think it would be nice if everyone on both sides of this remember it's just a game. Children aren't going to starve, countries won't descend into anarchy, stars won't fall out of the sky. That some people lost more than they gained is a consequence of cheating an online game. Just play the game more and earn it back if it's that important. That some people might not have been "punished enough" is just part of life, and if it does not hurt your ability to play the game, maybe relax a little bit.

 

Either way, it's a game. It's not like anyone was manipulating subprime loans causing a real estate bubble that collapsed the world economy for profit or something...

 

(Fully expecting the replies that feel the game economy IS that important)