Producer Letter Livestream Wrap-up

[LordArtemis]

The casual player also wants new playable content... Period. I think people are confabulating "story" with solo playable and repeatable content. The two are different things. If they weren't would WoW still be making over 800 million a year? Would FFXIV not only have just broken 5 million players BUT 5 million subscriptions because they refuse to go f2p?

 

No. People keep talking about the "new casual player that care more about story and fluff" but every MMO that has tried to cater to that has basically face planted and been forced into a f2p mold (ESO, GW2) while the two games that said "that idea is false" have flourished...yes WoW is fading...after over 10 years of doing it... FFXIV with realm reborn is downright resurgent.

 

Ok, I believe you might be twisting the actual truth of the matter to fit your personal views. Let me clear up what I see as a few mistakes in your post.

 

WoW is a game that clearly caters to casual players. Blizzard has commented, in public, that not only is their playerbase majority casual, most of their players have NEVER played top tier content, and that is the focus of their development (often to the annoyance of their message board community). They have, time and time again, released statements supporting the fact that any change they made to boost traditional or hardcore players backfired in their face. There are multiple examples, and multiple quotes and reports to draw from. Casuals seem to rule the day in WoW, period. At least according to Blizzard themselves.

 

Second, the only two games in the entire market that have demonstrated ANY lasting success catering to hardcore players are EVE and Secret World. FFXIV did so BADLY catering to hardcore players that it had to relaunch with a casual focused design. Now it is doing fairly well, one could argue because it too caters to casuals....not F2P, yet, but most certainly casual players. One only has to read their development blogs to clearly see this. Again, a majority casual game that has now found some limited success.

 

I cant speak to GW2 or ESO because I am not familiar with their development or stats. So will not speculate. You could be right on the money there.

 

As to games that found success catering to casuals after failing to capture hardcore audiences?

 

STO

Wildstar

LotRO

Rift

FFXIV

 

Games that were once hardcore oriented but have transitioned to casual focused, one could argue to remain healthy...

 

WoW

 

Games that have clearly found success catering to hardcore audiences?

 

Secret World

Eve

There are other games that belong on these lists, but the reasons they failed to survive under hardcore focus vary with each game, and are compounded by other issues....and success for those games that changed does not necessarily mean it was due to focusing on casuals alone...again, other factors could be at play.

 

Again, I state that this game could be exception to the rule, but anyone that refuses to accept the multiple studies, corporate studies and public reports from game companies and developers as well as the evidence in the market itself is simply, IMO, deluding themselves.

 

This is the reality. This is not speculation, this is not a guess, or a feeling, or an assumption. THIS IS THE CLEAR STATE OF THE MARKET.

 

The movers in the market focus on casual players generally speaking, and the follow ups and tag alongs focus on the ever shrinking hardcore market.

 

I can appreciate your contributions to this subject Ghisallo, but on this particular point you are simply wrong. What I stated is absolutely correct. I have personally engaged in exhaustive research on this subject, mainly because I didn't want to accept it either, and I am just as disappointed in the reality as any long time MMO gamer.

 

Just because I don't happen to LIKE the truth, or it doesnt fit my vision of how an MMO should operate, does not mean I reject the truth...and that is what it is. Hands down.

 

Take it as you will.

Edited December 5, 2015 by LordArtemis

[LordBeeDoO]

Well, I am ussually optimistic in swtor and so far understood most decision throughoutthe development. But this latest stream, I find in disturbing ...

 

I understand that creating new chapters takes hell fo the time (I believe they are working on chapters for all months till August now), but ... new patch comes 4 months, i.e. 16 weeks from 4.0 .. so if this is a new frequency of content patches .. once again changed without a single word (you remember changing freq. from 9 to 12 silently around SoR) and seems to bring limited replayable content ... if that means that next content patch comes another 16 weeks later, that is terrifying.

 

I love the story and 4.0 chapters were cool and I look forward for new chapters ... I like revamp of operations it keeps my guild busy now, will keep busy till 4.1 but further on ? I do not believe so. I will stay sub, I like SWTOR and latest trend, I like subscriber rewards as stated. But keep raiding guild functional it is other story ...

 

Star fortress is long, not much fun, I am not interested even in farming those achievements - no considerable loot there, even slighest.

 

HM of current ops are fine to walk through again, 65 level of event bosses .. nice .. but I cannot imagine waiting till May or even June for anything new I can do with guildies and talking about story is not group content :-) Yeah we will do NIM ops when geared ... again ... There seems to be some single player arena, that might be fun we will se ...

 

... but I truly believe that something new, refreshing, unseen is really must in the beginnign of the year.

 

Some time ago I suggested adding some FP/OPS with pseudo-randomly generated bosses (Kuat has come but ops would be also great) .. at least something like that would add a lot of replayability with element of suprise.

[eartharioch]

Games that have clearly found success catering to hardcore audiences?

 

Secret World

Eve

Just because I don't happen to LIKE the truth, or it doesnt fit my vision of how an MMO should operate, does not mean I reject the truth...and that is what it is. Hands down.

 

The Secret World is not now, nor has it ever been, a "hardcore" game. I don't see how you could possibly put EVE and TSW in the same category (and I'm not dissing either one). Just sayin'.

[Kaizersan]

Ok, I believe you might be twisting the actual truth of the matter to fit your personal views. Let me clear up what I see as a few mistakes in your post.

 

WoW is a game that clearly caters to casual players. Blizzard has commented, in public, that not only is their playerbase majority casual, most of their players have NEVER played top tier content, and that is the focus of their development (often to the annoyance of their message board community). They have, time and time again, released statements supporting the fact that any change they made to boost traditional or hardcore players backfired in their face. There are multiple examples, and multiple quotes and reports to draw from. Casuals seem to rule the day in WoW, period. At least according to Blizzard themselves.

 

Second, the only two games in the entire market that have demonstrated ANY lasting success catering to hardcore players are EVE and Secret World. FFXIV did so BADLY catering to hardcore players that it had to relaunch with a casual focused design. Now it is doing fairly well, one could argue because it too caters to casuals....not F2P, yet, but most certainly casual players. One only has to read their development blogs to clearly see this. Again, a majority casual game that has now found some limited success.

 

I cant speak to GW2 or ESO because I am not familiar with their development or stats. So will not speculate. You could be right on the money there.

 

As to games that found success catering to casuals after failing to capture hardcore audiences?

 

STO

Wildstar

LotRO

Rift

FFXIV

 

Games that were once hardcore oriented but have transitioned to casual focused, one could argue to remain healthy...

 

WoW

 

Games that have clearly found success catering to hardcore audiences?

 

Secret World

Eve

There are other games that belong on these lists, but the reasons they failed to survive under hardcore focus vary with each game, and are compounded by other issues....and success for those games that changed does not necessarily mean it was due to focusing on casuals alone...again, other factors could be at play.

 

Again, I state that this game could be exception to the rule, but anyone that refuses to accept the multiple studies, corporate studies and public reports from game companies and developers as well as the evidence in the market itself is simply, IMO, deluding themselves.

 

This is the reality. This is not speculation, this is not a guess, or a feeling, or an assumption. THIS IS THE CLEAR STATE OF THE MARKET.

 

The movers in the market focus on casual players generally speaking, and the follow ups and tag alongs focus on the ever shrinking hardcore market.

 

I can appreciate your contributions to this subject Ghisallo, but on this particular point you are simply wrong. What I stated is absolutely correct. I have personally engaged in exhaustive research on this subject, mainly because I didn't want to accept it either, and I am just as disappointed in the reality as any long time MMO gamer.

 

Just because I don't happen to LIKE the truth, or it doesnt fit my vision of how an MMO should operate, does not mean I reject the truth...and that is what it is. Hands down.

 

Take it as you will.

 

You clearly know nothing about FFXIV if you think that is why FFXIV 1.0 fail because it failed due to 2 things 1 a terrible game engine and 2 a producer who refused to accept input on making the game better and had to be forcefully retired to get rid of him and what made the reborn version better was a way better game engine that allowed for cross server queues and a producer who understood that to make a successful MMO you needed to give everyone something to do from casuals and hardcore players and that is why the reborn version is doing so well because they don't just focus on one part of the game.

[StoneGod]

As to games that found success catering to casuals after failing to capture hardcore audiences?

 

FFXIV

 

 

Do you play FFXIV?

Did you ever complete the (always changing and evolving) end game content of the updates when they were brand new?

Remember Titan Ex when it was new? Binding Coil of Bahamut (Twintania?)? Ex mode of Alexander?

 

Just because FFXIV enables players to complete older content in an easier manner doesn’t mean that upon release it wasn’t *********** HARD!

Seriously the boss battles of FFXIV are without equal as far as I played MMOs.

 

FFXIV caters to both hardcore and causal. If you are causal in FFXIV you simply wait for the next update and then complete the bosses of the previous updates with bolster (echo buff).

If you hardcore you go right into the ex-modes when they are new.

Edited December 5, 2015 by StoneGod

[Makillda]

 

Do you play FFXIV?

Did you ever complete the (always changing and evolving) end game content of the updates when they were brand new?

Remember Titan Ex when it was new? Binding Coil of Bahamut (Twintania?)? Ex mode of Alexander?

 

Just because FFXIV enables players to complete older content in an easier manner doesn’t mean that upon release it wasn’t *********** HARD!

Seriously the boss battles of FFXIV are without equal as far as I played MMOs.

 

FFXIV caters to both hardcore and causal. If you are causal in FFXIV you simply wait for the next update and then complete the bosses of the previous updates with bolster (echo buff).

If you hardcore you go right into the ex-modes when they are new.

 

I am finding myself wanting to try FFXIV right now, cat people or not.

[Jerba]

Has anyone called out Keyboardninja on the paradox in their post? First they say that Story isn't content, then they say they finished playing through all the Story Content in the next paragraph... but if Story isn't Content then what were they just playing?

Yes, a few players created a huge discussion on whether or not story is content or not. As far as I can see, they misunderstood KBN's post.

When he wrote "Story is not content." he wasn't talking about what is playable content, because story certainly is playable content. As he clarified in the later sentences, he uses a different definition of "content" than what other players think. "Content is something that you do in groups, because people are what give meaning and variety to repetitive actions"

If you look at MMOs, the only content that can be seen as content for long-term players is repeatable content. One-time stories are short time sinks to fulfill your enjoyment, and this is enough for players who are only here for the story, and then stop playing until the next chapter hits. But any of the more dedicated players, those that login daily, want something to do, and that is only possible with repeatable content.

Someone wrote in this thread (don't remember who it was) that he doesn't like level sync or rehashed content. I disagree; I find it a great idea to give us 9 ops we can do during raid night, plus all the heroics which give a good amount of credits and are easy to complete thanks to the teleport. We are in a much better situation than 3.0 when it comes to that, and players new to SWTOR are having the time of their life. But I agree with him that veteran players want something to do, and for this we need new repeatable content on top of the rehashed old content.

 

Since the subscriber reward survey has been brought up a few times in this thread, I want to mention this: I now believe that this survey was not conducted because of a change of heart at BioWare Austin but because of a new directive from above, especially since Need For Speed also just started doing surveys. I wouldn't be surprised if this is part of a new strategy from EA we will hear about in 2016, but for now I am not convinced BWA actually cares about the survey results but already had the 2016 rewards planned beforehand. The "how would you recommend SWTOR to a friend" survey just showed that they just want to do surveys but are not interested in the results. Because going through thousands of individual answers is not an efficient way to gather feedback; a few more pointed questions would have done a better job.

Edited December 5, 2015 by Jerba

[Jerba]

IMO the story-driven part killed the Game nearly after the Release. The Cartel-Shop & F2P saved it.

Now I don't understand why BW is listening to that kind of players who subbed at the release then quitted after the story was done, and now subbed again.

 

The only reason this game is still alive, is Star Wars. But if BW keeps ignoring the MMO-part so hard and continues to sell a Online Single Player Game without any difficulty, and companions who are the real Heroes of the expansion, many Players would stop subscribing and switch to Games which earn the title MMO.

Keep in mind that in 2011, the game was marketed as an MMO and drew many MMO players, especially those coming from WoW. They then had a problem of pleasing the crowd because players were used to instantly leveling to max level and getting into endgame, but for that SWTOR was not yet prepared. Then players left the game instead of playing through the other class stories because they didn't find it fun to see all the class stories.

 

For KotFE, they marketed this game as a story-based RPG, so they drew in a lot of story players who are not here for the MMO aspect. Therefore, they will not lose those players if they abandon developing new MMO content.

So it is wrong to look at the past to analyze this situation. The unknown variable are the veteran players, some of them are raiders, others are PvP players, others are RP or story players, or a mixture of those. If BioWare doesn't want to lose those, they need to appease them, either by offering them new content or rehashing the old content and hoping that when being silent, those players will just stay around and not quit the game.

Edited December 5, 2015 by Jerba

[Jerba]

This expac isn't about any existing player, much of the existing player base, including Solo players are finally beginning to wake up to it, they just aren't realizing the why yet.

I wouldn't be so harsh about them; an MMO can only succeed if it can attract new players. If you look at WoW, you see this problem. They will never be able to grow beyond 10 million subs because they can only attract previous subscribers back into the game; it is hard to get new players interested in WoW.

RotHC and SoR were good in attracting various MMO players from other games to SWTOR but now that we have a saturation of MMO games (WoW, SWTOR, Wildstar, ESO, FF14), SWTOR can no longer attract that many MMO players; especially since it has a way worse engine than those games. With voiced-over story, it has found a niche that differentiates it from other MMOs and can therefore attract new non-MMO players, in this case Star Wars fans and BioWare fans.

Therefore, I find it a good idea for SWTOR to focus on bringing in new players. The problem we now have is that this came at the cost of abandoning the veteran players. I'm still hopeful that they have something planned for veterans - after all, they did say how restructuring the endgame will make it easier to add new endgame content going forward. I just wish we would receive more communication from BioWare, not just in this thread but on all of the issues that arose with 4.0, like nightmare loot, difficulty of tactical and HM flashpoints, class imbalance, and buggy level sync (compare bounty event on Coruscant to Voss).

Edited December 5, 2015 by Jerba

[_NovaBlast_]

Keep in mind that in 2011, the game was marketed as an MMO and drew many MMO players,

 

 

LOL facepalm That was 4 years ago ...even if we accept your definition....things change.... look at snail mail - email... back on point...

 

I disagree with all your posts but i am not going to spend the time responding to them all becase i basically have already have in all my other responses,.....as i said earlier ...i have no trouble repeating myself if other people are continuing to spread what i consider misinformation and propaganda.

 

IF people with your views want to make up their own definitions and use terms incorrectly or keep repeating the same doctrine I keep repeating a counter argument.

 

You can sum up what all the people of your view are saying into one line....

 

"group / pvp ops players are center of the universe and online games exist to serve and support them and they are doomed without them"

look up the term niche crowd ..... its a term more fitting to describe that types of player.

 

NOT the general population of the game.

 

The sheer number of assumptions in this post is staggering.

 

A shorter version could simply read: "I firmly believe that Massively Multiplayer means grouping or PvP, and BioWare doesn't focus on those. I don't find any replay value in KoTFE, so no one else will, and players who play for story, quit, only PvPers and Raiders stick around."

 

... All of which are false.

 

I totally agree with this ^^^^^^^^

 

"MMO" is not a TYPE of game its an ENVIRONMENT. LOL

 

RPG , Moba, FPS, RTS are types of games

 

As long as more than one person can connect to the same environment at the same time its a MMO regardless of the content. meaning a MMO does not REQUIRE group or PVP content to be considered a "MMO"

 

You could have a completely solo able game and it would still be a "MMO"

 

Which can be as much as using chat, nothing implies MM part of MMO means must group for it to be considered MMO content - but you apparently didn't say ( or imply? ) that so all good. I'm not about to go back over these previous posts to find out.

 

***************************************

 

If you look at MMOs, the only content that can be seen as content for long-term players is repeatable content. One-time stories are short time sinks to fulfill your enjoyment, and this is enough for players who are only here for the story, and then stop playing until the next chapter hits. But any of the more dedicated players, those that login daily, want something to do, and that is only possible with repeatable content.

 

Repeated propaganda is repeated. I disagree with you entire post . but i found this most laughable.

 

One-time stories are short time sinks to fulfill your enjoyment, and this is enough for players who are only here for the story, and then stop playing until the next chapter hits

 

please show me where you got the raw stats to make this claim..

 

of course you go on to say only raiders and pvp are longer term.

 

So your saying ops / fp content changes after you play ....?

OPs content is going to be different every time you play it becase other people are with you ?

 

seem to me your just repeating a single battle ...... that seems a little shorter than the list below......just saying ....

 

Anyway ...Thanks for completely and utterly proving my point.

 

I'm saying that the people who are crusading for them Including you by this response are having delusions of grandeur about their popularity and importance to the game.

 

Again as i said in the past I am not against the existence of ops /fp ...as long as they are not used as content walls like they have in the past. (sor) for example.

 

 

IMO story content has more depth and re-play value than some single instance situation like a op

 

Depends what you consider to be repeatable... I have reached legacy level 50 without ever doing PVP or OPS

Class stories

Planet and sub quests

Expansions

SOR solo fp

Bonus seriises

Dailies

Weeklys

 

I seem to remember my first character i played though the whole game completed ALL Of the Above content avaible at the time and once i was fully geared and had crafting max

 

I started my second i played though the whole game completed ALL Of the Above content avaible at the time and once i was fully geared and had crafting max

 

then i started my third i played though the whole game completed ALL Of the Above content avaible at the time and once i was fully geared and had crafting max

 

Then i started my fourth i played though the whole game completed ALL Of the Above content avaible at the time and once i was fully geared and had crafting max

 

etc...

 

etc...

 

oohh and When new story content comes out ...well...then i have to start at the first again and ....

 

Get the picture.....? great value imo for less than 15$ a month becase i buy in months usually 3-6 at a time. bulk.

 

With the add CC Swtor has more that paid for itself and i got i end up "in profit" in terms of value for money.

Edited December 5, 2015 by _NovaBlast_

[Ghisallo]

I wouldn't be so harsh about them; an MMO can only succeed if it can attract new players. If you look at WoW, you see this problem. They will never be able to grow beyond 10 million subs because they can only attract previous subscribers back into the game; it is hard to get new players interested in WoW.

RotHC and SoR were good in attracting various MMO players from other games to SWTOR but now that we have a saturation of MMO games (WoW, SWTOR, Wildstar, ESO, FF14), SWTOR can no longer attract that many MMO players; especially since it has a way worse engine than those games. With voiced-over story, it has found a niche that differentiates it from other MMOs and can therefore attract new non-MMO players, in this case Star Wars fans and BioWare fans.

Therefore, I find it a good idea for SWTOR to focus on bringing in new players. The problem we now have is that this came at the cost of abandoning the veteran players. I'm still hopeful that they have something planned for veterans - after all, they did say how restructuring the endgame will make it easier to add new endgame content going forward. I just wish we would receive more communication from BioWare, not just in this thread but on all of the issues that arose with 4.0, like nightmare loot, difficulty of tactical and HM flashpoints, class imbalance, and buggy level sync (compare bounty event on Coruscant to Voss).

 

It's fine to atttract new players but not at the expense of existing players. The older a game the fewer new players you get period... natural because of the whole "new and shiny factor" The way they did this was basically "lets make the whole thing for new people and pray we don't lose too many existing players." That is gamble thus far seems to NOT be working out well.

[Ghisallo]

No i think i see things just fine ...perhaps its your vision that is skewed . From what i have read of yours and the fact you seem to think "repeatable content" only means stuff like ops / fp etc or that the lack of these make for a "choose your own adventure book"

 

Depends what you consider to be repeatable... I have reached legacy level 50 without ever doing PVP or OPS

Class stories

Planet and sub quests

Expansions

SOR solo fp

Bonus seriises

Dailies

Weeklys

 

I seem to remember my first character i played though the whole game completed ALL Of the Above content avaible at the time and once i was fully geared and had crafting max

 

I started my second i played though the whole game completed ALL Of the Above content avaible at the time and once i was fully geared and had crafting max

 

then i started my third i played though the whole game completed ALL Of the Above content avaible at the time and once i was fully geared and had crafting max

 

Then i started my fourth i played though the whole game completed ALL Of the Above content avaible at the time and once i was fully geared and had crafting max

 

etc.....

 

etc.......

 

ohhh and When new story content comes out ...well...then i have to start at the first again and ....

 

Get the picture.....? great value imo for less than 15$ a month becase i buy in months usually 3-6 at a time. bulk.

 

With the add CC Swtor has more that paid for itself and i got i end up "in profit" in terms of value for money.

 

 

 

I have made my feelings of KBN post quite clear on a number of occasions ...so i completely disagree with you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As for surviving that just brings me up to my cringe posts .... ops / fp /pvp are are not the "core " , "foundation" or biggest draw of SWTOR .

 

If you accept that the devs create the content that generates them the most revenue as fact.

 

Then the fact they have not release any ops / pvp and since sor is very telling. Also telling is they have continued to focus on story companions.

 

These a observations not only show that they are surviving but they are also going after their biggest customers..

 

 

 

Response to this is mostly in the first paragraph.. Your repeated thoughts are repeated.

 

As for "different rides" I am not saying ops and fp don't have their place. As long as they don't have any content locked behind them that doesn't have the option to be soloed if desired.

 

I'm saying that the people who are crusading for them Including you by this response are having delusions of grandeur about their popularity and importance to the game.

 

 

 

No as i stated above IMO they are going after what their metrics tell them are the most loyal types of players and the most used and requested content.

 

First repeatable content is not a subjective thing. It is content that you can do over and over again. The same content. This means solo dailies and weeklies, and the group stuff. All of the stuff that is part of the grind.

 

But lets say we include what you note as "repeatable", the above you look at the stuff from a "new person's" perspective and this is the issue with the skew. Yes a new player (if they also have altistis) AND does not use "instant level 60" is going to see all of that. (8 class stories etc). The thing is that when you are level 60-65, the class stories are gone/done... you look at the relevant things to the current story, and again, only if new you may see lots of new stuff.

 

BUT IF you are NOT new and are instead an existing Solo player you see weekly quests, all of which are ones you have done before as you leveled (especially if you leveled the way you note, which I did as well actually, I played this game solo for the first year and a half). If you do solo and group the same solo stuff + the same FPs you have done before... add in OPs and you add the same OPs you have done before. The Story is the same for every calse so after one play through it is basically done.

 

For a grind to not feel like a grind the stuff needs to be fun. A large component of "fun" is that the content is new. Without that it feels like a grind and in this case the grind does not only effect the group players but the solo players as well. Don't take my word for it though, look at the complaints going on since this expac dropped over level sync forcing recycled content into relevancy.

 

As for yor disagreement over story not being "game" well your disagreement with that is counter to the definition of the very word and the definition of what the cutscenes are. Story is something that is watched, read, etc. It is a movie, a book, a tv show. With the exception of the decision wheel it is indeed a purely passive experience. This is a fact. A game is something to be "played" and interacted with. So a game requires interaction. Unless of course you feel you are in a position to change the definitions of words in the english language.

[Autumnpuma]

COMPANION ROMANCES ARE BUGGED.

 

Sorry, bolded that so wouldn't get lost among the 'story vs content' discussion.

 

As detailed in this lengthy thread http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=843854 companion romances are bugged.

 

During chapter 2, when you see your companions paused in their fighting and Valkorian gives them all descriptions, a dialog choice should appear where you can mention your character loves a companion. A large amount of players are reporting that dialog didn't happen for them.

 

Thanks to player TinaLovesHan for this video comparison of a bugged version and a correct version:

 

 

 

Inquisitor:

 

Consular(bugged):

 

 

The bad thing about this bug is that there is no way a player could know about it unless told. Most players probably don't even realize they should have gotten a letter from their romance companions and different dialog choices in Chapter 2.

[PennyAnn]

It's not content you enjoy, but it's still content. I've leveled over 20 characters through many of the same stories. That's in addition to PvP and end game PvE. This particular story of 9 chapters did not impress me as something to be replayed, but that doesn't mean the overall idea of story isn't content. I certainly found the vanilla story content to be replayable.

 

Actually, I quite enjoy the story in SWTOR. I have 22 level 60 characters. I've obviously played the heck out of the story in this game. How many did I take through KotFE storyline? Two. And I regret having to do it a second time, but needed a character that was capable of more easily completing the grind that is alliance and companion influence. That is the only reason I repeated it. I chose the exact opposite story options whenever it was available the second time through. Guess what... no difference in the story yet. Choices matter? Perhaps we'll see that 6 months from now, if we're still around to look.

 

I agree that the vanilla story was replayable. But you know why? You had 8 different storylines to choose from that were -unique- and a new experience. One storyline for all? Nope. Not enough.

 

They went F2P so quickly because they lost a bunch of people with a story focused "MMO" that didn't retain people with replayable content. You can argue all you like that it didn't happen that way, but it did. They are repeating the same mistake with KotFE, but even worse because of the fact that this storyline is not even as replayable as the original launch stories were.

 

As far as story being content, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm in KBN's corner though, story is what gives the actual replayable content that keeps people subscribing to a game it's flavor and focus.

[LordArtemis]

It's fine to atttract new players but not at the expense of existing players.

 

I would agree with this point (not to say I do not agree with others made). I think it is a hard 6 roll to change a game expecting to draw in a new audience, at the expense of the present playerbase.

 

SOE learned that lesson the hard way, but this is not, of course, SWG. Nor do I mean to compare the two.

 

There has to be some way to satiate current players and still widen the appeal of the game. And by players I mean ALL players....PVP, Raiders, casuals, everyone

[auroroavalor]

I just wanna see the producer road map...

[_NovaBlast_]

First repeatable content is not a subjective thing. It is content that you can do over and over again. The same content. This means solo dailies and weeklies, and the group stuff. All of the stuff that is part of the grind.

 

obvious point is obvious

 

But lets say we include what you note as "repeatable",

 

well by simple fact and by your own definition everything i stated it is repeatable infinitely depending on how many accounts you want to make ....... so really that statement makes you look foolish and shows how weak the soapbox your standing on is ....i think by the end its going to break and you will fall though it...

 

the above you look at the stuff from a "new person's" perspective and this is the issue with the skew. Yes a new player (if they also have altistis) AND does not use "instant level 60" is going to see all of that. (8 class stories etc). The thing is that when you are level 60-65, the class stories are gone/done... you look at the relevant things to the current story, and again, only if new you may see lots of new stuff.

 

the same goes for ops and fps .... your box is starting to break even more.....

 

BUT IF you are NOT new and are instead an existing Solo player you see weekly quests, all of which are ones you have done before as you leveled (especially if you leveled the way you note, which I did as well actually, I played this game solo for the first year and a half). If you do solo and group the same solo stuff + the same FPs you have done before... add in OPs and you add the same OPs you have done before.

 

You make absolutely no point here ....i see a bunch of cracks forming....

 

For a grind to not feel like a grind the stuff needs to be fun. A large component of "fun" is that the content is new.

 

Obvious point is obvious new content is always good but it does not invalidate older content. I have lost tract how many times i played older games and non updated games and had just as much fun.

 

Without that it feels like a grind and in this case the grind does not only effect the group players but the solo players as well. Don't take my word for it though, look at the complaints going on since this expac dropped over level sync forcing recycled content into relevancy.

 

that whole statement is an opinion not a fact....as for the level sync there are just as many or more defending it. as for level sync i pretty much neutral on it i haven't really seen a noticeable differance.

 

The Story is the same for every calse so after one play through it is basically done.

 

crashhhhhhh you just fell though the box ..... that statement is unquestionably your opinion. That is not even in the same universe as fact in any way shape or form.

 

personalty I have had just as much fun on my most recent play though as i did my first.

 

 

As for yor disagreement over story not being "game" well your disagreement with that is counter to the definition of the very word and the definition of what the cutscenes are. Story is something that is watched, read, etc. It is a movie, a book, a tv show. With the exception of the decision wheel it is indeed a purely passive experience. This is a fact. A game is something to be "played" and interacted with. So a game requires interaction. Unless of course you feel you are in a position to change the definitions of words in the english language.

 

Sooo how did i even make it past level one if i want "playing" ???

 

As you PLAY though the missions you uncover the STORY segments .....**faceplam** honestly......im not sure if you are being serious or trolling me i hope your Just trolling me becase if you actually believe what you just wrote .........**facepalm**

 

Your the one living in a differnt reality .. personally i hope they increase the amount of cutscenes as they progress.

 

I like the fact they are doing monthly story updated with interactive cutscenes and their respective "playable and infinitely repeatable " quests .

 

IMO that is way more valuable and enjoyable content that some instance where a bunch of people go kill random mobs and then a "boss"

 

But you and others have succeed in one thing you have proven a point i made to another poster....

 

You can sum up what all the people of your view are saying into one line....

 

"group / pvp ops players are center of the universe and online games exist to serve and support them and they are doomed without them"

 

look up the term niche crowd ..... its a term more fitting to describe that types of player.

 

NOT the general population of the game.

 

In conclusion your and others opinion of "story" and opinion of "repeatable content" ... are just that ...an opinion....a very narrow opinion at that Nothing of what i have read in this post or any other i have read even come in the same universe of a fact.

Edited December 6, 2015 by _NovaBlast_

[Ghisallo]

obvious point is obvious

 

 

 

well by simple fact and by your own definition everything i stated it is repeatable infinitely depending on how many accounts you want to make ....... so really that statement makes you look foolish and shows how weak the soapbox your standing on is ....i think by the end its going to break and you will fall though it...

 

 

 

the same goes for ops and fps .... your box is starting to break even more.....

 

 

 

You make absolutely no point here ....i see a bunch of cracks forming....

 

 

 

Obvious point is obvious new content is always good but it does not invalidate older content. I have lost tract how many times i played older games and non updated games and had just as much fun.

 

 

 

that whole statement is an opinion not a fact....as for the level sync there are just as many or more defending it. as for level sync i pretty much neutral on it i haven't really seen a noticeable differance.

 

 

 

crashhhhhhh you just fell though the box ..... that statement is unquestionably your opinion. That is not even in the same universe as fact in any way shape or form.

 

personalty I have had just as much fun on my most recent play though as i did my first.

 

 

 

 

Sooo how did i even make it past level one if i want "playing" ???

 

As you PLAY though the missions you uncover the STORY segments .....**faceplam** honestly......im not sure if you are being serious or trolling me i hope your Just trolling me becase if you actually believe what you just wrote .........**facepalm**

 

Your the one living in a differnt reality .. personally i hope they increase the amount of cutscenes as they progress.

 

I like the fact they are doing monthly story updated with interactive cutscenes and their respective "playable and infinitely repeatable " quests .

 

IMO that is way more valuable and enjoyable content that some instance where a bunch of people go kill random mobs and then a "boss"

 

But you and others have succeed in one thing you have proven a point i made to another poster....

 

 

 

In conclusion your and others opinion of "story" and opinion of "repeatable content" ... are just that ...an opinion....a very narrow opinion at that Nothing of what i have read in this post or any other i have read even come in the same universe of a fact.

 

I would like to say how you cherry pick stuff and try to treat them as separate topics when they are not and you thus fail to look at things holistically.

 

The entire point of this expac is NOT about any existing player, it is about attracting new players and fast tracking them to end game... hence the streamlined leveling that allows you to focus on only the class quest or the "instant" level 60 etc. Once at 60 hey look the companions have been reset so no need to do that class quest which was previously needed to level your companion influence/affection. THIS is what the expac is about and your ignoring this is why your entire premise is flawed.

 

So looking at that forget the fact you did 1000 things and are happy running 8 different characters (or more). Look at what a character has at 60-65.

 

If you are new you see a score of solo weeklies, FPS and OPs you have never done before (because you fast tracked through the story quest). AWESOME the world is huge!!!!

 

If on the other hand you are an existing player, regardless of your preference you see only things you have done before so often that you are bored to DEATH of them.

 

I could go back to the companion thread and all the solo/story players justifying the OP state of companions with "I should not have to grind stuff I did before!!!" You say that is an opinion BUT you miss the issue with the level sync issue and are disingenuous again. There were indeed when the expac launched a lot of people defending it. If you go to the Lvl sync thread though and then to the companion nerf thread you see the VAST majority changed their mind on level sync the minute that companions were retuned t o meet the image of the devs. Suddenly they saw what level sync was meant for and they were less than pleased.

 

So yes you can certainly have your own opinion on that issue but really right now the issue seems to be shared by most existing players, the problem is they can not allow their age old solo v grouper v Ops player (even though there are casual both group and ops runners category) rivalries to die.

 

That said lets look at something here logically. SW is one of, if not the, best known IPs in the world period. Yet it has to do these crazy things just to meet certain goals. Now the excuse I have often seen is "The market has changed, the 'old' MMO formula is a thing of the past." I have seen this in the subscription model arguments as well. If that is indeed the case how did an MMO that follows in most paths, the "old" model just hit 5 million subscribers this year? EA's CEO at launch said they would consider SWTOR a success with 500k in comparison, No f2p option... only subscription model mind you. It has just as much story as SWTOR and cut scenes, though admittedly not all of it voiced over. How can this be!?!?!?!?!?

 

The answer... the idea the market has changed is simply "marketing speak" by companies who failed. Here this gets exaggerated by a hardcore group of people that never thought this game should have been an MMORPG in the first place, they wanted KOTOR 3.

 

You know what I salute those honest enough to say that, those who have the balls to say "I want this to be a single player game, forget the MMORPG". The problem is you can't have both, at least in a corporate environment like EA's where they are VERY tight on budgets and expected ROI's, and make no mistake in the end BW does what EA allows them to do. Under those conditions you simply cannot please the MMORPG fan, which is still a big source of profit (as proven by FFXIV), and the SP Story fan wanting a difficulty slider, in the same game.

 

BW needs to make up their mind. Why do I say this? Well if they are not lying and they will buff up the SF to meet companion levels and start designing OPs and FPs. When these things happen the people happy now will be pissed off then. Then BW will swap to make them happy again and the people made happy will be pissed off. This kind of pendulum will cause issues.

 

 

Someone else raised FFXIV earlier and said "you can do things for both." I have to say even more now I disagree. I had a friend give me an invite so I could have an extended free trial to test it for the purposes of this conversation (yeah I am that anal retentive). I just finished the initial "global" story quest (there is a global and a class quest line). There were a number of times in the global quest where I was forced to do group instances (not sure if this continues, only level 22). Wasn't that big an issue since I rolled a tank to start.

 

Could I play the game without it? Sure...but I would never have a mount, or access to what they call their AH and bank slots (your retainer). So clearly that game is tilted towards the classic MMORPG player. YET in terms of Online games, outside of MOBAs which are PvP based... the only game doing better is the "dreaded" WoW.

 

 

I only raise the above to further illustrate the point. BW will need to decide what they really want this game to be, if they don't they will never reach their maximum potential. At this point I do not care. Say "we are an MMORPG and make that kind of game and I will stay. Say "we are a SP RPG game that for some reason is online" and I will leave BUT with no hard feelings either. If they keep bouncing between the two however it will not end well for anyone and in the end I want everyone to have a place to have fun. It's not like there are not options.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Ghisallo

[Exly]

If you have any questions about the stream or anything else, throw them in this thread and I will work with Ben on getting them answered. Thanks!

 

-eric

 

I wonder, why make statements like this if you don't plan on following up on them?

 

I know that you were probably caught by surprise at the less that enthusiastic reaction that many had with the information that you did release, but that is no excuse to return to silent mode.

 

After all, in your live stream you touted the fact that you listen to us, and want to provide us with the game experience that we all want, but when you fail to reply to us when we offer you our feedback, and when we respond to your offer to answer our questions, you just create more distance between us and you, and you make me think that maybe you are not being completely truthful when you do communicate with us.

[Blackbird]

I wonder, why make statements like this if you don't plan on following up on them?

 

Apparently that is standard operating procedure around here. I have yet to se any BW representative actually follow up on something with real or meaningful responses to the community after having promised to do so; at least not on anything that received any significant level of an unfavorable response.

[Wopr]

I think actions speak out more then words. I cancel out my sub, and now re-sub with WoW. Good luck BW

[Avorniel]

I think actions speak out more then words. I cancel out my sub, and now re-sub with WoW. Good luck BW

 

You've gone to wow I have gone to FFXIV ARR..

[MeNaCe-NZ]

No i think i see things just fine ...perhaps its your vision that is skewed . From what i have read of yours and the fact you seem to think "repeatable content" only means stuff like ops / fp etc or that the lack of these make for a "choose your own adventure book"

 

It's a choose your own path adventure book because many people find the combat aspect monotonous, grindy and plain boring.

If you want proof of this go read all the threads and posts after companions were nerfed and the vitriol being posted about having to do the boring, grindy combat again as opposed as to zooming through it.

 

The story combat for KoTFE it was nearly impossible to die in by design ( i.e. when tyou had your companions out as by design ). The only time you might is if it was a boss fiht and you decided to stand there and literally do nothing.

 

This sort of design shows BW are only interested in the story itself and the decisions you make within that story ( albeit they have very little in the way of repercussions thus don't matter ).

 

Thus pick a path adventure.

 

ohhh and When new story content comes out ...well...then i have to start at the first again and ....

 

Get the picture.....? great value imo for less than 15$ a month becase i buy in months usually 3-6 at a time. bulk.

 

With the add CC Swtor has more that paid for itself and i got i end up "in profit" in terms of value for money.

 

You get to repeat the same 1 hour content each month on all your characters? Make a few new choices with your choose a path story? The gameplay will be the same regardless.

 

Don't mix it in with new class stories which they aren't, you aren't getting a whole new experience each time you play through and this was proven by KoTFe how little the story changed ( and gameplay changed not at all ). I don't expect this to change.

 

Everything else you listed is moot, they aren't new you get to repeat again when they release a new chapter. They are the same as they are now.

 

If you are happy paying your $15 for 1 hours story a month then cool. I think those that haven't done everything already get great value from their sub.

Those that have been there and done it all though would be foolish or just utter fanboys/girls to continue subbing around the content we've been told we are getting next year now. It's just not value for money.

 

Instead comeback in 6+ months, buy 1 month supporter and get access to that content en masse anyway? Plus being able to play through the story to it's conclusion in one go. Maybe add another month or so to go through anything else they've added or to try do the story different ways etc. Pretty good value for a few months supporter.

 

Staying sub all the way through though ... that's just stupid as I see it hence why I've got about 4 days left on my sub. I'll pay when it's worth me spending money.

Preferred status more than suits my casual attitude towards this game now - there is literally no point in subbing for me and I would wager many are in the same boat..

 

 

As for surviving that just brings me up to my cringe posts .... ops / fp /pvp are are not the "core " , "foundation" or biggest draw of SWTOR .

 

They are content that takes quite a lot of time to get through though and have proven to be enough to keep people subbed for quite some time as long as they are regularly released.

 

If we were getting 3 hours of story per month and a couple of new heroics a month plus a new SF equivalent every couple of months there after then that would be worth $15 imo as it's just enough fresh content to keep people trucking along.

 

When you are only getting 1 hour story of which 15 minutes is story and 45 is grindining ... yeah no thanks.

 

 

If you accept that the devs create the content that generates them the most revenue as fact.

 

Then the fact they have not release any ops / pvp and since sor is very telling. Also telling is they have continued to focus on story companions.

 

These a observations not only show that they are surviving but they are also going after their biggest customers..

 

Being that this direction is new for BW and I read your post alter on in this thread about "facts" ... where are your facts to back any of this up?

 

This experiment could fail miserably and the game dies or we are back to more regular operation/flashpoint/planet release schedules with a major story expansion each year or so.

 

I see no evidence to support this new method of creating content is going to prove more profitable as we don't know what the future will hold. Where are YOUR facts to call this a FACT? Heh.

 

I only know they will make less profit from me as I'll play for free then come pay in many months time and consume all the content you paid for for a fraction of the price you paid over that time period ( whilst still being able to pretty much do everything you do in the game now, unlocks bought with credits are great ).

 

 

I'm saying that the people who are crusading for them Including you by this response are having delusions of grandeur about their popularity and importance to the game.

 

You may be right ... but I can almost guarantee you if you only get 1 hour story per month next year it's going to be a far worse situation of niche content than what a few operations/flashpoints a year would be.

 

My opinion of course just like yours seems to be that you think this model will succeed ( again, no facts there )

 

 

No as i stated above IMO they are going after what their metrics tell them are the most loyal types of players and the most used and requested content.

 

They are also hoping these players stick around and redo the class stories etc. of course the start at 60 may backfire and people will think "meh I don't want to do old content or story content where I know how it ends I'm off to paly this other game and I'll come back here in a few months time now they've told me I get all the old content for a 1 month subscription fee".

 

Who knows what will happen but my money is on this experiment failing miserably.

 

Now don't confuse me as an anti story/solo/casual person ( only when it affects others players like companion changes did ) - I'm purely stating this 1 hour story per month is crap and not worth anywhere near the price being paid ( especially considering I can get it later for cheaper and not have this "ooo that's 1 hour down now what do I do with the other 29 days of my sub that isn't boring and repetitive and I haven't done before ... ooo right ... nothing") and not having any actual new CONTENT beyond that is a huge mistake.

 

They are banking on keeping their new players who haven't done all that content at the expense of their old players ... it's going to end in tears or a complete 180 in their design choice.

[eartharioch]

The story combat for KoTFE it was nearly impossible to die in by design ( i.e. when tyou had your companions out as by design ). The only time you might is if it was a boss fiht and you decided to stand there and literally do nothing.

That is absolute rubbish -- my start-at-60 died once going through KotFE, and I was definitely not doing literally "nothing".

 

For starters, I was talking on the phone while I was playing, I just didn't notice that I had walked into a room with two tough-as-pins (not actual "nails") silvers. I was still in my lowbie (item level 188) starter gear, and I was only able to kill one before I died. Fortunately, there was a bug where this didn't cause the combat to reset, and my (influence < 5) comp was able to hold off the second mob while I rezzed myself (I still got the option to rez in place or at med center) in time to heal to full before saving my clearly NOT OP comp from that second mob.

 

This sort of design shows BW are only interested in the story itself and the decisions you make within that story ( albeit they have very little in the way of repercussions thus don't matter ).

 

Thus pick a path adventure.

 

In America, we called them "Choose Your Own Adventure" books, but I see your point. The only difference [between Pick A Path / Choose Your Own Adventure and KotFE] is that our choices actually affected the storyline, whereas in KotFE our choices matter about as much as what we decide to have our companions wear...

Edited December 8, 2015 by eartharioch

[rasputein]

I think actions speak out more then words. I cancel out my sub, and now re-sub with WoW. Good luck BW

 

im lving up another warrior in GW2 atm just to get the hang of the game again...my star wars sub is now canceled