Jeweledleah Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Don't be childish and try and turn this into an ad hominem contest. I can understand Koth's reasoning perfectly well. What you're mistaken on is the idea that understanding his reasoning means I have to respect it. I don't. His reasons are poorly founded, rife with fallacy and blatantly colored by his own bias and objective naivete about the goings-on of 95% of the galaxy. He only knows, and makes it very clear he only cares about Zakuul. His entire morality is a sham and hypocritical. To him, the lives of a thousand Zakuulans are precious, and sacrificing them for the greater good makes you an irredeemable monster. But the deaths of billions of non-Zakuulans are, to him, irrelevant because he's sure Valkorian must have had a good reason. Nothing he says on the issue makes any sense, thus I and the characters I play have no reason to respect his opinions on the matter. That is not hatred, that is just people perceiving and reacting to the character they've been presented with in the story. except all he has is our word against his entire life experience. it is incredibly unreasonable to expect him just to take you on your word. he doesn't know you. he needs irrefutable evidence to contradict his very expected bias. he is absolutely NOT hypocritical, he IS in denial, but to hate him for it? really? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAresian Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Right now, I am firmly in the loathing of Koth camp. I have no problem with his loyalty to his Valkorion. The "my country, wrong or right" idea is pretty much as old as countries themselves. As for the looks/speech/attitude thing, I think it's much ado about nothing. There's so much diversity in this game that it's only slightly less PC than an episode of Barney or Sesame Street. The problem that I have with Koth is the same problem that I had with Lana in SoR; they're plot crowbars that force the player to act in unnatural ways. The Emperor's Wrath/Darth Nox is one of the most powerful Sith in the galaxy, but s/he is no more than Lana Beniko's meat puppet in SoR. With the revelation that the Emperor is Valkorion and the death of Darth Marr, the Wrath/Darth Nox goes from one of to likely THE most powerful Dark Side being alive and is reduced to the straight man in the Koth Vortena Comedy Hour. To me, it's either metaplaying or just poor writing. So as of this writing, yes, I'd flush him out the airlock. However, the story is still in the telling so I shall wait and see what happens. At least for him. But I don't care what happens with Lana. First chance I get, I'm taking a lightsaber or a blaster or a vibroblade or a kabob skewer or a pointed stick or a raspberry and that'll be that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codedrago Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 He's the latest incarnation of Carth Onasi. Most people have a genetic aversion to his type of npc in Bioware games and his spiritual successor is in every single game Bioware has ever made since KOTOR like an Easter egg hiding a dev troll. Actually, if I wracked my caveman brain, I could probably come up with his antecedent from Baldurs Gate and Planescape. I swear there must be a plaque in the Bioware home office main hallway that reads: "Tho shalt include a male good-aligned NPC companion in every single game created by this company, with the personality of a turnip, and a huge chip on his shoulder about something completely asinine, who will never shut up and be reviled by all and sundry." Carth Onasi was a good character, who didn't constantly spout his opinion nor was a hypocritical annoyance. Hell the only times when he stated his opinion in death like Koth continually does is when you prod him to do so or do something really bad that he doesn't agree with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kogarvandalin Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 I hate him because he just assumes he gets to be captain of my ship, and that the ship is his. Then he gives me big attitude when I correct him. My character would have killed him right there, then asked if anyone else thinks this ship belongs to them. I'm really hoping Senja (Spelling) ends up killing him once he is no longer useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucyfer_Infinity Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Well i can partly understand him. If my country had politician who did nothing but good for it, provided good and safe life for me, my family and friends, i would stand behind him and wouldn't give a flying rats *** if he killed billions of people i never heard about somewhere else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codedrago Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Lana: Valkorion is a world devourer. Koth: He brought direction and stability to Zakuul. Lana: Trust me, Koth, you don't know him like I do. Koth: No, you don't know him like I do. lol.. what a sh*thead. Would be great if Valk is the one that ends up killing him. What I'm guessing is that one point Valky will appear before Koth and ask him to betray you for one reason or another and if you wern't nice to Koht, he's like ''**** yeah!'', if you were nice, e's like ''I don't know...Seems kind of stupid...'' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codedrago Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Actually, I don't mind Koth. He is a bit blind in his faith, but has his uses. Lana however... I Never wanted. Ever. Period. In fact I think I Told her this to her face quite a few times leading up to KotFE, yet here she still is making doe eyes at my characters despite my obvious disdain for her. Not a single character I have would have willingly taken her along even as a lackey. Most of them would have killed her at the most convenient/opportune moment after first meeting her back in the pre-revan days. I think that Lana is literally our character's personally fangirl. THink about it, no matter what you do, she's always valiantly saying how important or awesome you are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audoucet Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 I want to kill Koth, but seriously, I want to kill mostly everyone in my team. But especially Theron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audoucet Posted November 3, 2015 Share Posted November 3, 2015 Do I think every single person that dislikes him doesn't like him solely because of his race? No. Strawman argument. Never made that argument, and that is a just a dishonest response. I do think there are a lot that dislike him for those reasons whether they know so consciously or not. I do think it is naive privilege to think it isn't a factor at all for... again... SOME. Yeah right, and black people hate Carth because he's white. Y'all get less racism, when you stop always talking about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WorldSmasher Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 Exactly. Torian = Corso + mando'a. Corso = Carth. Therefore, Torian = Carth. Is that math? You used math to show that Torian is the same as Carth? Is that allowed? You can't use math!! Can you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pscyon Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 Is that math? You used math to show that Torian is the same as Carth? Is that allowed? You can't use math!! Can you? Well, math is a horrible thing of the dark side, so normally the answer would be no. However, TOR both allows and to some degree encourages going dark. So he can in fact do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nefla Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 (edited) Speaking of being flippant and dismissive of peoples' complex reasons for disliking characters, I have observed that many male players seem to immediately develop a hatred of the first male romantic interest they're introduced to in a Bioware game. This affords me endless amusement, and I can perhaps be overly dismissive. (Someone doesn't like Torian? PUT IT IN THE TREND BOX.) I feel the same way, that the male players tend to hate the male love interests. The complaints they make about these character's personalities are ones they never make about the sexy female characters or female love interests even if they're the same. Female players tend to like the male characters that the male players hate. BioWare themselves have said that the characters that are universally liked are the ones that are funny and don't disagree with the player. Edited November 4, 2015 by Nefla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Iurus Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 I think that Lana is literally our character's personally fangirl. THink about it, no matter what you do, she's always valiantly saying how important or awesome you are I don't know, she's flipped out at my alts a few times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kifa Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 (edited) Koth is easily the most punchable companion of any bioware game to date I honestly didn't think it was possible to be more punchable than Carth Onasi. Edited November 4, 2015 by kifa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WorldSmasher Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 I think that Lana is literally our character's personally fangirl. THink about it, no matter what you do, she's always valiantly saying how important or awesome you are She "lectured" Darth Nox. Darth Nox will remember that. Darth Nox will make her pay for her insolence when her usefulness has ended... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haruen Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 As he is right now, he's not written as a Good Guy. He's in it to make sure that Zakuul gets rid of the current psychopath running the show, and to replace that psychopath with one that is a little less prone to self-destructive acts and making him do icky things. Kind of like most of the Stauffenberg ring. Nice comparison. (+500 Influence Haruen) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanawinst Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 (edited) On all 12 of my HKs' hit lists: Aric Jorgen Corso Riggs (SWTOR's pub faction Carth clone) Sergeant Rusk Zenith Torian Cadera (SWTOR's imp faction Carth clone) Skadge Malavi Quinn Vector Hyluss C2-N2 2V-R8 Theron Shan Koth (SWTOR's dual faction Carth clone) Damn, I wish I could control my obviously deeply ingrained and privileged white hatred of droids, cat men, Houk, hive mind bug slaves, dopey mandos, tentacle head psychopaths, traitorous ******es...and black people. Bioware works from templates when creating party NPCs. It always has had and always will have a "Carth Onasi" who will most likely be one of, if not the only, available romance for a female player character. All of the companions disagree and ***** at you if you make story choices they disagree with. Ask the Vette on my Dark V bastard juggernaut's crew how that shock collar is working out. If Koth transfered his Valkorian worship to me and agreed with everything I did regardless of alignment, there would still be an open airlock into the Maw Cluster in his future because he isn't new or unique or cool. He is Carth Onasi and I hate him. There's another common denominator in that list: 12 out of 12 are males (or male voice for the robots). I find it hard to believe that none of the girls hit the same list. Maybe the fact that they swoon over male characters is what saves them from that. I feel the same way, that the male players tend to hate the male love interests. The complaints they make about these character's personalities are ones they never make about the sexy female characters or female love interests even if they're the same. Female players tend to like the male characters that the male players hate. BioWare themselves have said that the characters that are universally liked are the ones that are funny and don't disagree with the player. I'm starting to believe in that theory too. Edited November 4, 2015 by lanawinst Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pscyon Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 I feel the same way, that the male players tend to hate the male love interests. The complaints they make about these character's personalities are ones they never make about the sexy female characters or female love interests even if they're the same. Female players tend to like the male characters that the male players hate. BioWare themselves have said that the characters that are universally liked are the ones that are funny and don't disagree with the player. In that case, shouldn't I dislike Corso? Andronikos? Vector? Mandalorian Bieber? Jorgan? Kaidan and Alistair? I really should, shouldn't I? But I don't. Andronikos and Vector I have no opinion about other than a "Why the hell are you here, I didn't invite you?" for the former, but many companions for many characters have that. Corso is a dumb hick, but that's the extent of my disapprovement of him. Mandalorian Bieber suffers from a bad haircut and "LOOK AT ME, I'M MANDALORIAN, DID I TELL YOU ABOUT IT YET?" but again, that's not enough for hatred or annoyance. Jorgan I have no opinion of. Kaidan, other than being the mandatory The Whiner of that game, don't care. Alistair I actually like, he's quite funny when he isn't crying. Carth is also mostly okay. Mostly. "Hey Carth, how's things?" "Saul betrayed me once. He's a dick." "Uh, okay." "I'm not going to have you betray me too just so you know!" "Sheesh, okay man, I was just checking what you wanted for breakfast since we're going out..." I must be doing something wrong since I don't hate all of them, as they are the male love interests as far as I know. Even though I think Koth should be pushed into a pit or devoured by Vitiate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkov Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 In that case, shouldn't I dislike Corso? Andronikos? Vector? Mandalorian Bieber? Jorgan? Kaidan and Alistair? I really should, shouldn't I? But I don't. Andronikos and Vector I have no opinion about other than a "Why the hell are you here, I didn't invite you?" for the former, but many companions for many characters have that. Corso is a dumb hick, but that's the extent of my disapprovement of him. Mandalorian Bieber suffers from a bad haircut and "LOOK AT ME, I'M MANDALORIAN, DID I TELL YOU ABOUT IT YET?" but again, that's not enough for hatred or annoyance. Jorgan I have no opinion of. Kaidan, other than being the mandatory The Whiner of that game, don't care. Alistair I actually like, he's quite funny when he isn't crying. Carth is also mostly okay. Mostly. "Hey Carth, how's things?" "Saul betrayed me once. He's a dick." "Uh, okay." "I'm not going to have you betray me too just so you know!" "Sheesh, okay man, I was just checking what you wanted for breakfast since we're going out..." I must be doing something wrong since I don't hate all of them, as they are the male love interests as far as I know. Even though I think Koth should be pushed into a pit or devoured by Vitiate. Agree with this, I only have issue with Koth and Quinn. Corso annoys me, but not to the point of wanting to space him, he's just naive and too good/lawful for my Smuggler. Mako and LS Jaesa annoy me as well for the same reasons, but I tolerate them fine. Ashara should annoy me, but there is plenty of dialogue where you can reason with her, which you can't with most of them. Quinn betrayed me, reason enough to hate him. Koth is just wrong and blind to the truth, as well as blaming you for terrible things which weren't within your control to change/stop. I can see that they modelled him a bit on Han Solo, but I don't think Solo would ever display the absolute loyalty that Koth has for the Emperor. Koth actually reminds me of the Episode 2 & 3 Anakin, who has absolute faith in Palpatine regardless of what everyone else around him is saying. A petulant little brat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glower Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 Agree, he is a terrible person. Whine whine whine, wait... are we are talking about our precious Emperor!? MORE OF WHINE! He is like quadrupled version of Corso Riggs. On my sith i mock him every time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myrdinn Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 Koth... ...how did he end up a captain of a ship in a navy that is totally droid controlled? Yes, I find his "save one Zakuul citizen even if it costs another country a world" stance, but a lot of people have that particular blindness. A lot of people are even willing to forgive a leader for being a monster, if that means they are taken care of and their people are taken care of. It just so happens he does not have that opinion of the people who serve me. For that reason, he's on my hit list... do not screw with or have opinions to the detriment of my crew/people who serve me. Similarly, Skage, Rusk, and Quinn are all in danger of being deposed of when their usefulness is at an end. They are active threats to the rest of my crew and people, and, thus, are enemies. Zenith, Scourge, and Vik are on the borderline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirandel Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 Someone hasn't been in the military before. Heck even the clones had some serious rough edges in the Star Wars Universe. Zakuul military doesn't = knights. His unit is just like him, very rough around the edges. Zakuul military seems more like the space marines of the Movie Aliens. Sorry your argument that he doesn't "fit" the archetype, fails. Happy to see the answer to my argument. Anything to backup your statement about "army unit is totally equals a band of smugglers in behaviour" and not only in RL but in game too? You say it, sure, but the game does not support ex-military men to look and behave as a homeless street-rat a la Koth. Take any other companion with similar background - from Corso to Pierce - in each of them you will find some elements screaming "military". Here - nothing but the words of other companions. It's not about being "rough around the edges", it's about total complete lack of anything military relevant. Even his fighting style they had to explain as "unconventional" because - as I suspect - initially Koth was not planned to be an officer but a smuggler or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuevvenXiltyn Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 Lana: Valkorion is a world devourer. Koth: He brought direction and stability to Zakuul. Lana: Trust me, Koth, you don't know him like I do. Koth: No, you don't know him like I do. lol.. what a sh*thead. Would be great if Valk is the one that ends up killing him. You know that whole conversation is funny. Thing is, I wish there was an option after Senya says her line where you (the PC) can interject, "No, I know him better than all of you. Why? He's in my fricken' head!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadoken Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 In that case, shouldn't I dislike Corso? Andronikos? Vector? Mandalorian Bieber? Jorgan? Kaidan and Alistair? I really should, shouldn't I? But I don't. Andronikos and Vector I have no opinion about other than a "Why the hell are you here, I didn't invite you?" for the former, but many companions for many characters have that. Corso is a dumb hick, but that's the extent of my disapprovement of him. Mandalorian Bieber suffers from a bad haircut and "LOOK AT ME, I'M MANDALORIAN, DID I TELL YOU ABOUT IT YET?" but again, that's not enough for hatred or annoyance. Jorgan I have no opinion of. Kaidan, other than being the mandatory The Whiner of that game, don't care. Alistair I actually like, he's quite funny when he isn't crying. Carth is also mostly okay. Mostly. "Hey Carth, how's things?" "Saul betrayed me once. He's a dick." "Uh, okay." "I'm not going to have you betray me too just so you know!" "Sheesh, okay man, I was just checking what you wanted for breakfast since we're going out..." I must be doing something wrong since I don't hate all of them, as they are the male love interests as far as I know. Even though I think Koth should be pushed into a pit or devoured by Vitiate. The problem with stereotypes is they never really apply to everyone It doesn't even begin to address those males that play female characters. Granted some probably still do hate the male love interests, but not everyone. That said, Quinn still needs to die in a fire btw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SerraShar Posted November 4, 2015 Share Posted November 4, 2015 The problem with stereotypes is they never really apply to everyone It doesn't even begin to address those males that play female characters. Granted some probably still do hate the male love interests, but not everyone. That said, Quinn still needs to die in a fire btw. I have a better idea....smack him with vette collar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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