Level synch = death of SWTOR

[azudelphi]

Yeh you may have to do two attacks instead of one....the end is near.

It's looking like people didn't pay attention to his health bar, damage per second, or anything during the stream when he was on DK. As other, wiser posters have said it is a question of how they implement certain things like planets with multiple leveling areas and the like. Maybe they do it well, maybe they botch it... the road test will determine that.

 

As for how it affects early level planets' balance: (based on the livestream) We won't be invincible, but we certainly won't be weak. I think if aggro radius is handled based on your true level, half the "outrage" goes away.

Edited October 1, 2015 by azudelphi

[Juromaro]

Sure you can. Have you ever played an MMO before? One that has a leveling system to where you get better as you level.

 

Now, take all that information you know, listen and watch what BW has said and shown. Reach an educated conclusion based on what information you have.

 

If BW is holding back information well screw them really at this point.

 

I can clearly say, that with what I know about mmos games and leveling in those games and what BW is doing. The down scaling of my toons is not interesting to me.

 

Thats not saying the feature isn't interesting or should be removed. It just needs to be optional. I don't need to be down scaled to any particular planet so I can have fun. I have fun now or I wouldn't still be here. Getting down scaled isn't going to make my experience more entertaining. It's actually going to hurt it a little and thats not exciting times.

 

So yea. I can say this is not going to be better for me. Optional however would be perfect. Forced - not so much.

 

How is being downleveled to level 25 or whatever lowbie planet your on going affect you on Ziost, Yavin or whatever new planets they release at 65 and up?

 

Now you can go back to Tatooine at level 65, fight the world boss at the level designed for the boss, or do a heroic and get gear you can use for level 65.

 

I get it some people like to feel like they got powerful, and I get it you think because some people don't agree this is a bad idea that they haven't played MMO's before. Downlevel isn't going to kill RP, it isn't going to kill mat farming, you're not going to get smashed into the ground as a level 65 Jedi by a level 25 no name npc. My level 20 Sorc solo's at level kingpins, I solo champions on every planet daily, when I'm going through an area and I get knocked off I smash the NPC's and get back on my speeder.

 

Downlevel is going to give me, a person with 21 characters, 17 of which are level 60, reasons outside of 'RP" to go back to old worlds. Now I can farm some of the easier heroics for at level gear, now I can enjoy killing that world boss with a group that I so loved doing when the game released.

 

Now hopefully I'll see more than 10 people on a leveling planet during peak times because all the endgamers are sitting on fleet waiting for que pops, now us endgamers actually have something to do, cause I can almost bet 100% that I'll still be able to faceroll my way through a planet regardless if I'm downleveled or not.

 

But that's just my opinion.

[Transcendent]

In watching the stream, Musco was no where near a high-end APM / rotation and was not "weak" against the DK mobs...

 

Let me define "weak" in the context I've used it.

 

- Anything less than being able to simply ignore every annoying little mob I've killed numerous times while at level.

- Anything that currently can't even damage a level 60 character (because you simply dodge everything).

- Anything that currently dies quickly to the most basic attacks from a level 60 character.

 

Hopefully that avoids confusion of the context of my use of "weak". I shouldn't have to resort to any form of rotation against a current low level mob.

 

If I did have to with scaling, then the combat team need to do some serious knuckling down right now and reverse some of the stupid changes to things like interrupt and various other ability cooldowns that they've messed around with since those mobs were created. Otherwise at level (or just above) newer players are going to have some issues with certain mobs.

[ZavienUK]

It's bad thing for majority becouse majority never wants changes. And majority will always play in the way that takes least effort possible. You guys are actually a shining example of it.

 

It's not about least effort, it's about unnecessary tedium. Nobody is suggesting this change will result in them not being able to cross planets or kill mobs, but it will make many things more tedious (and don't confuse challenge with tedium)

 

Still, majority is often wrong. Becouse instead of exploring the option and making educated statement, majority will go with the way of least effort possible - in this case ***** and complain with no substance to it. And no, I'm not talking about you specifically - you may have actual reason to hate the system in question.

 

Sometimes you need to force something down people's throats for them to think for a moment and say - "you know, it's actually a good thing!" This may be the case here, this may be not. I believe it is.

 

So if we are all wrong make it a toggle, and then a few months down the line when we all sheepishly admit we never use the toggle because actually it's not that bad and there are advantages to having level sync turned on you can laugh at our foolishness and close mindedness. I won't be offended, promise.

[DeltaaXx]

Sure you can. Have you ever played an MMO before? One that has a leveling system to where you get better as you level.

 

Now, take all that information you know, listen and watch what BW has said and shown. Reach an educated conclusion based on what information you have.

 

If BW is holding back information well screw them really at this point.

 

I can clearly say, that with what I know about mmos games and leveling in those games and what BW is doing. The down scaling of my toons is not interesting to me.

 

Thats not saying the feature isn't interesting or should be removed. It just needs to be optional. I don't need to be down scaled to any particular planet so I can have fun. I have fun now or I wouldn't still be here. Getting down scaled isn't going to make my experience more entertaining. It's actually going to hurt it a little and thats not exciting times.

 

So yea. I can say this is not going to be better for me. Optional however would be perfect. Forced - not so much.

 

So how exactly does this hurt? Are you unable to crank out even half a rotation for any discipline?

[azudelphi]

Let me define "weak" in the context I've used it.

 

- Anything less than being able to simply ignore every annoying little mob I've killed numerous times while at level.

- Anything that currently can't even damage a level 60 character (because you simply dodge everything).

- Anything that currently dies quickly to the most basic attacks from a level 60 character.

 

Hopefully that avoids confusion of the context of my use of "weak". I shouldn't have to resort to any form of rotation against a current low level mob.

And it looks like you won't have to... he was never at any risk of being hurt by the heroic mobs and was killing them in hasty time without resorting to rotations as much as just firing off his discipline's abilities. Yeah, might have to press more than base attack, but that's the least reason to be concerned about the change (though he probably could have pulled that off as well based on his DTPS, just would have taken longer).

 

So really is the only unaddressed concern our aggro radius? Because frankly I have wondered what that radius is based on with the sync system myself.

Edited October 1, 2015 by azudelphi

[KhealThar]

GW2 does this same system and its awesome. Keeps all content relevant which is important these days in MMOs

[ZavienUK]

 

And for the love of god, stop this optional BS. I think i already explained why it shouldn't happen.

 

I must have missed it, I can't keep up with this thread when I go out, but I think I already explained why it should happen

 

See it works both ways...

[IslanderRebel]

How is being downleveled to level 25 or whatever lowbie planet your on going affect you on Ziost, Yavin or whatever new planets they release at 65 and up?

 

Now you can go back to Tatooine at level 65, fight the world boss at the level designed for the boss, or do a heroic and get gear you can use for level 65.

 

I get it some people like to feel like they got powerful, and I get it you think because some people don't agree this is a bad idea that they haven't played MMO's before. Downlevel isn't going to kill RP, it isn't going to kill mat farming, you're not going to get smashed into the ground as a level 65 Jedi by a level 25 no name npc. My level 20 Sorc solo's at level kingpins, I solo champions on every planet daily, when I'm going through an area and I get knocked off I smash the NPC's and get back on my speeder.

 

Downlevel is going to give me, a person with 21 characters, 17 of which are level 60, reasons outside of 'RP" to go back to old worlds. Now I can farm some of the easier heroics for at level gear, now I can enjoy killing that world boss with a group that I so loved doing when the game released.

 

Now hopefully I'll see more than 10 people on a leveling planet during peak times because all the endgamers are sitting on fleet waiting for que pops, now us endgamers actually have something to do, cause I can almost bet 100% that I'll still be able to faceroll my way through a planet regardless if I'm downleveled or not.

 

But that's just my opinion.

 

 

 

Holy mackerel !!!

What server are you on that barely has 10 people on a leveling planet during Prime Time hours?

I need to come on this server so I can laugh my *** off until I die. LOL

I guarantee that won't happen on Harby.

[ZavienUK]

Instead of an automated response, maybe get some actual input from the Devs that they noticed this thread and that they should seriously consider the request being made? Make it optional, and do it before its to late please.

 

And yes I am not unsubbing after all ... loving this game to much, despite the flawed developer team.

 

Use some sense, not all people with yellow text do the same job. It is not the place for a moderator to respond regarding developer decisions.

[branmakmuffin]

If there is one thing I've learned by owning my own business for more than 20 years, it is this...

 

"The customer may be right, the customer may be wrong, the customer may be bat-crazy insane... but the customer is always the customer..."

And presumably another thing you have learned is "You are in business to make money, not to please the customer." If, all things considered, an unhappy customer makes you $10 and a happy customer makes you $9, you'll go with the unhappy customer any day of the week.

 

A good example of thinking you know best is "New Coke". Management was SO sure of itself that it not only came out with NEW Coke, it STOPPED MAKING THE EXISTING PRODUCT THAT WAS SELLING.

 

It didn't take long to turn that around, and it remains a business case study to this day.

Because people voted with their wallets. If TOR players vote with their wallets, presumably something similar will happen. But if people stay subscribed and a tiny minority just complain a lot, BWEA is not going to change anything.

 

Also, TOR is nothing like Coca-cola, old or new.

[ZavienUK]

Not everyone will agree but I like level syncing for a few reasons:

• I have non-sub friends who play and I like the freedom to play any of my characters with them.
  
• I actually prefer to play content that doesn't involve me 1 shotting anything - ever. I like more of a challenge than less of one. Not that the footage of Musco on DK doing the heroic looked hard but it was directionally harder than had he been 60.
  
• I think you can reasonably reward completion for a "level 18 (60 synced)" doing a level 18 heroic rather than handing out rewards for 60's doing level 10 content. We can argue about whether the rewards are worth it but that's something different.
  
• I'm not saying this is new content - but for ME it will be more revitalized content because I now have the option to do it in a more enjoyable way - for me, on the character of my choosing.
  
• I believe it streamlines some of the other aspects of the game they are changing as well, such as gathering and crafting. There are now other reasons to be on lower level planets besides your run through on the story.
  

 

Those are some of MY reasons for enjoying it. Feel free to disagree all you want, as I don't expect everyone to share my opinions.

 

I don't think anybody would disagree with this. These are lots of good things about the system, including those you mentioned, none of which would be prevent by this being an optional system.

[Juromaro]

Holy mackerel !!!

What server are you on that barely has 10 people on a leveling planet during Prime Time hours?

I need to come on this server so I can laugh my *** off until I die. LOL

I guarantee that won't happen on Harby.

 

Ebon Hawk, I actually abandoned a few toons on Harby, good to see they are getting some traffic, but yeah on Ebon Hawk, Korriban= Max 3 maps, Fleet= Max 3 maps, DK= Max 2 maps, Balm=89ish, and eventually Voss/Corellia around 10-20.

 

Though I will say this 12xp event has boosted the planets populations by a little but people are only interested in clearing their story so they can have toons ready for KoTFE.

[Bakakiba]

Ah...so PvP too right? You should be forced to PvP, since some of us players like it...those who don't like it just haven't been forced to do it enough...right?

 

No problem with it, and I don't PvP.

 

Next.

[KyaniteD]

I trusted Bioware to make Dragon Age 2 be something as cool as DA1 was. Trust broken.

 

I trusted Bioware to do a good job with the grand finale of Mass Effect 3. They not only failed to do a good job, they went full frotzing French Arthouse and made it some ultrafail 'interpreted art' ending that couldn't have failed harder if they'd deliberately set out to screw it up. It took a huge global effort to get them to finally, begrudgingly add to it just a tiny bit, though the Bedgrudging was total and they didn't actually make it good. Just less 'What the frotz is this even I don't what?'

 

So, they did a much better job with Dragon Age: Inquisition. Some faith restored for that - evidence that they can both learn and try to up their game. Full honors restored? Nuh uh. Some. Broken trust is harder to fix than it is to break in the first place like that.

 

Mass Effect? I don't even care if they add more to the franchise now. I really just don't. It was good while it was good, but they took the grand finale and made it into something only Van Gogh could've appreciated.

 

Imagine Episode 3 of the original Star Wars trilogy ending with an abstract montage of Luke's companions fleeing the Death Star, some poignant music and absolutely no closure what so ever as to what even happens with Vader or if Luke even lives or dies or what, but there's Han and Leia and C-3P0 standing outside the wreck of the Falcon, looking off at some hope-filled artsy-fartsy sunrise wile an upbeat swell of the music reminiscent of some Lion King Circle of Life BS crescendos and bam, the end, roll credits.

 

The point I'm trying to make here? Bioware can fail, and when they do, they like to fail big.

 

I mean, look at this very game. SWTOR: the most expensive example of folly, hubris and mediocrity in the MMO scene at the time of its launch. You bet its gotten much better since, but we're still mired in an engine of sheer mediocrity with both hands firmly grasping the increasingly distant past of World of Warcraft's Burning Crusade era baseline mechanisms.

 

Bioware almost literally went digging through Blizzard's garbage and put Star Wars skins on it to make this game. If they'd have actually spent the fabulously enormous budget for this game wisely and tried to make a game that wasn't throwing itself into the past for reasons unbeknownst to quite possibly anybody, we could have been playing a much better game.

 

But this is what you get when hundreds of millions of dollars is thrown at mismanagement and some unquantifiable severity of ego and conflicting direction. Here we sit forevermore on a second-rate engine in a game that tanked so hard that it had to go free to play in the first year just to keep the servers on.

 

Here we sit in a game made by people that, for whatever reason, seem very intent on putting the lion's share of everything neat in gambling addicts' CC Market boxes because whatever, need to make money, who the crap even actually cares anymore.

 

And you have the audacity to plug your faith in Bioware as though its even merited, let alone representative of anything other than sheer folly?

 

Your faith is misplaced. They don't always have good reasons no matter that they always act like they think they do and when they screw up, they're too proud to apologize or even necessarily try to fix it because, as far as I can tell, that'd be admitting failure, and the first rule of being a giant failure in corporate business is that you never apologize and you never admit failure.

 

You forge ahead. Failure doesn't exist in your vocabulary. You never admit setbacks to the public and you deny through absolute silence every single thing that doesn't fit with your projections' narrative.

 

You have faith in that? You trust that?

 

Because I don't trust that very much at all.

 

Thanks for that. Pretty much expresses my feelings on that subject as well.

[ZavienUK]

GW2 does this same system and its awesome. Keeps all content relevant which is important these days in MMOs

 

Is one of the reasons I didn't like GW2 and don't play it. Nevertheless making it optional can still provide the benefit you mentioned.

[Transcendent]

*snip*

 

Anyway, in your efforts to focus on one part of that post, doesn't in anyway detract from the main point of the post about story telling.

 

You can focus on just the downscaling and your white knighting defending of the level sync if you like. Entirely up to you.

[TUXs]

And presumably another thing you have learned is "You are in business to make money, not to please the customer." If, all things considered, an unhappy customer makes you $10 and a happy customer makes you $9, you'll go with the unhappy customer any day of the week.

Except a happy customer will do more for future business than an unhappy one ever will. If I'm just selling a one time widget, you're right...but if I'm selling a product I need the customer to continue to pay for or buy over and over, I'll take the $9 over the $10 any day. Happy customers become repeat customers.

[caronome]

Optional downleveling would be great.

 

I just want to go on record as saying I hate, hate, hate forced downleveling.

 

When I think of an MMO, combat is not in the top 3 things I care about. I am not so insecure that I feel the need to be constantly challenged.

 

Besides, I love soloing old zones/raids in WoW.

 

This will make SWTOR much less enjoyable. Please make it optional.

[branmakmuffin]

Except a happy customer will do more for future business than an unhappy one ever will.

That's why I said "All things considered."

[ZavienUK]

 

Because people voted with their wallets. If TOR players vote with their wallets, presumably something similar will happen. But if people stay subscribed and a tiny minority just complain a lot, BWEA is not going to change anything.

 

 

When you talk about minorities remember a couple of things. In Business you often use a multiplier with regard to complaints. That is to say for everybody person who complaints, there will be a hundred more are unhappy but don't come to the forum to complain.

 

There is also the fact that a lot of people don't watch live streams, don't look at the forum, and heck in some cases don't even read patch notes. They are not going to know about this until it hits them in the face.

 

While there is doubt there are many people who have no issue with this system, but there are also many people who do not want this system. There a very small minority who are against having this as a toggle so both sides are happy.

Edited October 1, 2015 by ZavienUK

[DeltaaXx]

Optional downleveling would be great.

 

I just want to go on record as saying I hate, hate, hate forced downleveling.

 

When I think of an MMO, combat is not in the top 3 things I care about. I am not so insecure that I feel the need to be constantly challenged.

 

Besides, I love soloing old zones/raids in WoW.

 

This will make SWTOR much less enjoyable. Please make it optional.

 

How does making content more challenging make one insecure? Honestly the stuff in this game outside of raids is easy with mods 10+ levels below your current level which is equal to that of the mobs. If you can run around a planet and one shot everything what fun is there? If you can take a story boss down in 3 hits what's the point? There really is none and it gets boring very fast, because it doesn't require you to do anything. Even with level sync if you go to Tatooine as a 65 you will still easily kill mobs because of your superior DCD's, procs, and abilities.

[Kingsbount]

If i leveled and geared character to level 60 - i want to USE THIS ADVANTAGE.

If i want to match planetary level, ill simply create new toon.

 

I want my character TO BE overpowered.

Becouse im level 60 in awsome armor.

 

If you want challange - play GW 2, scrubs.

[branmakmuffin]

When you talk about minorities remember a couple of things. In Business you often use a multiplier with regard to complaints. That is to say for everybody person who complaints, there will be a hundred more are unhappy but don't come to the forum to complain.

There is no reason to assume that 1 person complaining on the forums represents anything other than "1 person complaining on the forums."

 

If the game starts bleeding subscribers, they will know they made a mistake and fix it.

[Juromaro]

When you talk about minorities remember a couple of things. In Business you often use a multiplier with regard to complaints. That is to say for everybody person who complaints, there will be a hundred more are unhappy but don't come to the forum to complain.

 

There is also the fact that a lot of people don't watch live streams, don't look at the forum, and heck in some cases don't even read patch notes. They are not going to know about this until it hits them in the face.

 

While there is doubt there are many people who have no issue with this system, but there are also many people who do not want this system. There a very small minority who are against having this as a toggle so both sides are happy.

 

Reminds me of an episode of Family Guy. to which this was said:

 

FCC Suit 1: Gentlemen, we got 20 calls about the David Hyde-Pierce incident. And as you know, one call equals a billion people, which means 20 billion people were offended by this. Needless to say, something must be done.

FCC Suit 2: Perhaps we should ask the chairman.

FCC Suit 1: Good idea. (to the chairman) Uh, sir, we're wondering what course of action you recommend regarding the Hyde-Pierce incident.

Cobra Commander (the chairman): You've got to censor television, you fools! Now, follow my orders!