Harassment of Developers

[FerkWork]

While I strongly disagree with some of the Dev Teams decisions regarding certain Classes, at the end of the day it just a game and discussion should remain within the confines of organized discussion. Moving into the area of Real life harassment and threats is unacceptable and shameful. I hope you take swift action against those harassers. These perpetrators are not welcome by the community.

 

I do implore you to continue listen to our suggestions and feedback as many Players who may disagree are as outraged at these actions as you are and even more.

 

I am again saddened by these actions by such Dregs of society.

[Twortas]

Not cool at all, I hope legal action is considered along with account bans.

 

As for the people saying its sorta ok because there's a big gap between developers intent for the class and what players want, nope sorry, this kinda harasment can never come even close to being justified.

[DanaMarschz]

It's unfortunate some people took to this extreme measure and in no way do I condone it.

 

That being said, maybe you as developers need to look into why this group and this topic ended up going to such extremes.

 

Reading your response about dialogue made my stomach churn just a little, because the posts I'm reading from the combat team are less about actual dialogue and more of a "Learn to Play" or "this is how we want you to play a xxx spec Sent/Mara".

 

Now this isn't to say that dialogue didn't happen on other developer posts, in fact quite the opposite, many were happy about the reversal of "QOL" Heal changes that were actually nerfs.

 

But the tone of the messages from the COMBAT team regarding Sentinels and Marauders is drastically different, bordering on antagonizing.

 

Again, don't hide behind the fact that some groups went to unethical extremes, but to me, this illustrates the frustration level of players who are extremely passionate about a class, and how they are not feeling heard or acknowledged to the point of being antagonized.

 

Developer interaction is increasing, but it is still very spotty at best when it comes to actual dialogue and that's the issue, the lack of one side feeling heard or acknowledged.

 

There is never a time or place for victim blaming man.

[DynamiCtagez]

This is ****ed up and I feel incredibly sorry. I disagree with almost everything he said. He insulted us by telling us to l2p and ignores almost all of the feedback we give. He even slaps PvPers in the face by spreading a utility that should be made passive into multiple ones. He ignores the community and yet asks for more feedback and it seems he's trying to mock us. He has to understand that we are the players who play this class for years and he should seriously consider our suggestions and not just kick us in the face with insults. And "disagreement with some things" is a different thing than straight up insulting us or completely ignoring our suggestions. What you said about discussing and respecting each other opinions--it really doesn't seem the combat team is respecting the voice of the players AT ALL.

 

But even with all that in mind he should NEVER be personally harassed, especially not on personal accounts. And harassing his family is even worse and disgusting. Again I'm incredibly sorry for these ****heads in our community. I hope he and his family are alright.

Edited May 7, 2015 by DynamiCtagez

[Alec_Fortescue]

Lol

 

Even I don't go over to devs other accounts about Jedi robes.... And I thought I am crazy.

[oofalong]

John, Eric, et al

 

I have been a vocal opponent of the posts yesterday for reasons I outlined on said posts. As contentious as I was, at no point would I ever wish harm upon anyone, especially one who is working to improve the game. I do not know the extent of the harassment, but for anything I have done to contribute to the damage I am sincerely sorry.

 

Regards,

Josh

Edited May 7, 2015 by oofalong

[Archiah]

No matter your opinion on the changes, this kind of stuff is beyond ridiculous. What could they possibly hope to accomplish?

[Death_By_Smiley]

First, to John, I cannot apologize for how you and your loved ones have been treated by some members of the community, as I did not participate. However, you have both my sympathy and my empathy, given that there was a time in my life when someone found my real world e-mail address and was using it to harass me. Not on the same scale, but I know how terrible it can feel. To have it on such a large scale is a shame.

 

Unfortunately, we need to accept the simple fact that we as a society often treat the Internet as a rough and tumble outlaw town. We need to stop this. All of us live on this planet, and most of us on this forum either love the game or have loved it and hope to see it return to what we believe was a better place.

 

It is very frustrating when devs see a class differently than you, and when points you spend a long time formulating or arguing get ignored. I know this from experience.

 

But there's a really easy way to deal with that: if the game has you so upset you want to "get back" at the devs, unsubscribe. Going after people IRL and their loved ones is pathetic and childish, and I hope the devs release your information to local law enforcement in a complaint of stalking/threats of violence.

[thebutthat]

That nerd rage, though. Just tell them to roll juggs and get over it. Isn't that what 12x was for?

[The_Wulff]

Thank you Eric, John, Alex, David, Tait, and anyone I may have forgotten for facing a less than receptive set of forums as often as you do. I hope at the minimum the offending party/ies have been banned and reported to the authorities. It is one thing to vocally disagree with someone but it is another thing entirely to track them into their personal life and harass their family.

 

I hope people realize this forum is a privilege for us to communicate with the staff and other players and that abuses like this will have effects on the industry as a whole not just on this forum or in this game.

[dscount]

There's disagreement, and there's ethics in journalism, and there's this. This is unacceptable.

 

I don't agree with the decisions made recently by the combat team with respect to the sentinel/marauder AC. I don't agree with how they were communicated or the line of thinking that the communication it represents. But none of that matters.

 

This is so far over the line it needs a passport and a visa.

 

This ^^ exactly.

 

I feel that the Combat / DEV team are just failing to do what is needed to fix things, but THIS type of actions by folks is just not acceptable.

 

Thank you for the feedback - I'm sure collectively we shall try to police our own ranks. Meanwhile, please read the constructive feedback and address / resolve accordingly.

[TUXs]

How embarrassing for the SWTOR community.

Not true, I'm not at all embarrassed because I didn't participate, nor do I think what they did represents this community.

[TheJollyRogers]

It's unfortunate some people took to this extreme measure and in no way do I condone it.

 

That being said, maybe you as developers need to look into why this group and this topic ended up going to such extremes.

 

Reading your response about dialogue made my stomach churn just a little, because the posts I'm reading from the combat team are less about actual dialogue and more of a "Learn to Play" or "this is how we want you to play a xxx spec Sent/Mara".

 

Now this isn't to say that dialogue didn't happen on other developer posts, in fact quite the opposite, many were happy about the reversal of "QOL" Heal changes that were actually nerfs.

 

But the tone of the messages from the COMBAT team regarding Sentinels and Marauders is drastically different, bordering on antagonizing.

 

Again, don't hide behind the fact that some groups went to unethical extremes, but to me, this illustrates the frustration level of players who are extremely passionate about a class, and how they are not feeling heard or acknowledged to the point of being antagonized.

 

Developer interaction is increasing, but it is still very spotty at best when it comes to actual dialogue and that's the issue, the lack of one side feeling heard or acknowledged.

 

You need to step back from your computer and take a break. His family got harassed and your response comes off as if "they should have expected it" because of how they worded a forum post about a class in a video game.

 

No. Pull your head out of your rear and start actually thinking.

Edited May 7, 2015 by TheJollyRogers

[Arlon_Nabarlly]

It's unfortunate some people took to this extreme measure and in no way do I condone it.

 

That being said, maybe you as developers need to look into why this group and this topic ended up going to such extremes.

 

Reading your response about dialogue made my stomach churn just a little, because the posts I'm reading from the combat team are less about actual dialogue and more of a "Learn to Play" or "this is how we want you to play a xxx spec Sent/Mara".

 

Now this isn't to say that dialogue didn't happen on other developer posts, in fact quite the opposite, many were happy about the reversal of "QOL" Heal changes that were actually nerfs.

 

But the tone of the messages from the COMBAT team regarding Sentinels and Marauders is drastically different, bordering on antagonizing.

 

Again, don't hide behind the fact that some groups went to unethical extremes, but to me, this illustrates the frustration level of players who are extremely passionate about a class, and how they are not feeling heard or acknowledged to the point of being antagonized.

 

Developer interaction is increasing, but it is still very spotty at best when it comes to actual dialogue and that's the issue, the lack of one side feeling heard or acknowledged.

 

It's unfortunate some people took to this extreme measure and in no way do I condone it, but here's a whole bunch of reasons why the victim is at fault....

 

This is almost as disgusting as the personal attacks themselves. If you want the communication to get better communicate to them like their human. If a friend or even acquaintance came up to you and said someone was harassing them and their family, would you reply back with "Sucks bro, but here's why you're being harrassed"????!??

[waterboytkd]

John, I'm very sorry this has happened to you and your family. And if anything I have said on these boards encouraged someone to go this far, I am deeply sorry.

 

Though the feedback was getting heated of late (a lot of passionate Sentinel and Marauder players!), this is so far beyond any kind of reasonable, appropriate, or acceptable response that I am truly mortified to even be a member of the Sentinel and Marauder community at the moment.

 

I hope you and your family are doing okay, and I hope whoever engaged in this behavior has been stopped, and that the proper authorities have been contacted.

 

Wow. Just...wow.

[Malastare]

Of course this is totally unwarranted

 

And yet, how could anyone here be surprised?

 

This is the community that many of us have created. There is a significant portion of the posters here that routinely insult the developers, insisting that any action that goes against their opinions is a personal insult (cf: "a slap in the face"), and claiming that all actions by Bioware are motivated by greed and ignorance.

 

Now, presented with this story, I'm sure a lot of them would insist that they were just engaging in some healthy exaggeration and that they know its just a game and blah, blah, blah. But they were still an active promoter of an environment that encouraged others to de-humanize and vilify the developers. Is it shocking that people would react with this sort of bullying behavior after the mob has conditioned them to believe that the developers are the enemy and the community would support anyone who insulted/blamed/attacked developers?

 

I'm all for debate and even open criticism. I always have been. But I've also always been vehemently opposed to the trend here of portraying the developers as enemies. Figure it out people: If you like the game and want it to be better, the developers are the best allies you have.

 

Every time you insult them, every time you call them stupid or say that they don't know how to do their job. Every time you say they don't listen to you because they dislike the community, you support and promote actions like this. Feel free to criticize the game. But when you start adopting attitudes like this, you become the problem, not the solution.

[JuggernautReaver]

There is never a time or place for victim blaming man.

 

not victim blaming, he said on the first line that he did not condone what those people did, should probably read instead of selectively read

[Rennia]

As a member of the Mara/Sentinel community, I have to say this is way over the line. While I do echo some here in that I'm not a fan of the decision of the developers or their explanation.. This is a freaking game. Even if you are currently paying for it, there is no legitimate reason to ever stalk, insult, harass, or threaten an developer. This sort of behavior will just become venom in their system and give them a negative disposition towards their job and the community, and no one wants or needs that.

 

I have played a great many games over the years, both MMOs and SP/MP games. In those games I have disagreed with many decisions made on part of the developer to change a class in some form or another. Despite this, despite some of my favorite gameplay being taken away, I have never considered harassment of the staff to be acceptable. Yes they're paid to do their job. Yes you're paying to play their game. HOWEVER, if they make a decision that you don't like.. bring it up respectfully on the forums. If, despite this feedback, they decide to continue with the changes, then you need to make a decision on whether or not you wish to keep playing. If you do.. strap in tight and continue your feedback. Not everyone can be made happy all the time. If not... Then stop paying and go away.

 

I have played my marauder since the original game. Not since launch, but close to. I know what it's been through. I have seen the cries for change a great many times. I have wanted change myself during these phases. I have seen the replies from the staff. While unpleasant, I do not believe any of it has warranted what has been done here. To those guilty of this.. grow up. To those who defend: You're only going to fuel dislike between developer and community. If you don't think negativity from your audience will kill something.. I invite you to look at quite a few Long running TV shows that were killed because of viewer negativity. I doubt this game will be any different, but at the moment I don't see any SW MMO to replace it... keep that in mind.

 

To the Devs:

 

You have my sympathies. Having been a community leader on a much smaller scale, I know that you guys have an extremely difficult job. No amount of detrimental decisions will ever warrant the course of action these players chose to pursue, and I am sorry you had to put up with it. I encourage you to not let these people get to you, and to continue to communicate with the community for the good that it can accomplish. I have seen drastic improvements in community satisfaction when developers communicate and work with them. And more importantly, you guys have created a game that many people still play, regardless of their reasons.

 

With my kind regards to those directly effected by this,

Rennia

[fidothegran]

It's 4chan, they have had a beef with Bioware ever since DA2. They also seem to have been going after Star Wars lately too, trying to ruin the fandom with fake leaks and trolling.

[Arlon_Nabarlly]

And yet, how could anyone here be surprised?

Really??

 

I know how toxic the community is within the confines of this forum, and reddit, dulfy.net, and releated SWTOR based internet locations. Going outside of that to personal attacks is something that I absolutely be surprised about. It's one thing to be an *** talking about people you work with in the break room, it's another thing to call their family and tell them about it...

[Luckygunslinger]

I have had my issues with the developers this round of content on certain choices they have made and some lack of communication. I may have gotten a bit over passionate in my posts by stating certain choices were "silly" or "poor" but I do not and will not ever go this far as to insult or attack someone for their job.

 

Hatred Assassin got nerfed and left the class with little to work with, but did the class respond in this manner? No. Similar to Force Storm getting nerfed. If the developers ruffle your feathers this much then leave for a few weeks and return if your class plays better than expected. I can understand wanting your class to play the way you like it but this is unacceptable. I don't want to attack the class but Marauders to an extent have been very brutal in their communication to the developers. A handful of them have been constructive, but this is greatly shadowed by insults, petty comments and I feel like the Marauder/Sentinel forum is at a peak of this disgusting nature.

 

Regardless John I'm sorry you had to go through that. There is no reason why anyone should be subjected to such petty vengeance because their Cauterize doesn't burn how exactly they want. One way or another, all players feel the sting of change, but it's the mature ones who put up with it or try for change rather than throwing filth and hoping people weaken as a result. Keep up your work and I'll continue playing.

 

-Artorias.

[Arlon_Nabarlly]

not victim blaming, he said on the first line that he did not condone what those people did, should probably read instead of selectively read

 

Yes, but when 1/15 of the post is apologizing and 14/15ths of it is talking about all the victims mistakes it's blaming the victim. The equivalent is if someone was rapaed, and you replied with 1 sentence of I'm sorry and I don't condone this, but then 14 sentence of why they shouldn't dress so prospectively. It's disgusting, uncalled for, and almost as bad the original offense because it shows they clearly don't understand the problem...

[TheJollyRogers]

not victim blaming, he said on the first line that he did not condone what those people did, should probably read instead of selectively read

 

Prefacing your post with "I don't condone harassment" and then following it up with "your tone made this response justifiable" doesn't negate the second part. It's clear the poster was angry enough about the tone of the Sentinel/Marauder post that he allowed that to be the focus of the post instead of, y'know, how despicable harassing a developer's family is.

 

Sorry, you don't get a free pass here. Nothing justifies harassment. Nothing.

[znihilist]

I am really disliking how some are blaming John for this! I am not going to pretend that I am still very disappointing by what was said yesterday, but in the end this is supposed to be a game and not a mandatory life activity. There is absolutely no arguing on this matter, you can angrily argue with someone but you leave it civil and on this very platform they agreed to talk to us in, anything else is jumping over the line on what is acceptable and what is legal.

[ArchangelLBC]

Let me say up front that I absolutely do not condone the actions taken by members of the community as far as harassment of John or his family goes. Such actions are unacceptable, and those who participated in such harassment should be appropriately punished.

 

That being said Eric, I understand the frustration which may have led those members of the community to this extreme. That doesn't make it right, but a refusal to understand what led to those actions leave us only doomed to suffer them again in the future.

 

Frankly Eric the only part of your post that I agree with is that such actions are absolutely unacceptable. Everything else is utter crap. The combat team wasn't interested in a dialog. A dialog would be them talking to us. Those idiotic posts yesterday were John talking at the community, not to it. And they varied between being condescending "learn to play" nonsense and flat out untruths. Whether those untruths were a result of willful lying or incompetence is irrelevant. Holding an opinion the community doesn't like is one thing. Showing the kind of disrespect John showed yesterday while failing to meaningfully address any of the actual concerns of the Mara/Sent community is another matter entirely. If the alternative to no communication is lying or incompetence mixed with a healthy dose of disrespect then, speaking purely for myself, I'm not sure which I find more infuriating but neither is acceptable from you or the combat team. Either way I cannot bring myself to respect the opinions of the Combat team when they so clearly don't respect those of the community.

 

Again, does that mean that those who allowed their frustration and anger to manifest in the harassment suffered by John and his family was justified? No it absolutely does not. There was no justification for that. Yet if the way Bioware communicates with the playerbase continues in the same vein that John gave yesterday then the absolute best case scenario is that the game closes down because everyone quit, and the worst case scenario is that more and more people give into their anger in ways that are out of bounds. Neither of those I think are what the devs want. Certainly neither of those are what I want. Yet the community is powerless to affect real change without the team and Bioware doing things from their end to engage in actual meaningful dialog about class balance, and sadly there will always be people who, when they feel powerless, will go outside the bounds of civil behavior in order to try and stop being powerless.

 

 

Official channels will only ever be effective outlets for Player criticism, badly as it's often expressed, when those channels are seen to be effective. When you have PTS after PTS cycle where meaningful feedback is ignored, when you make posts like the three posted yesterday, many people will stop seeing those official channels as having any relevance. Some like myself will stop posting for the most part because we're frustrated and angry and don't see the point in trying to engage the development team any further. Others, unfortunately, will allow their frustration and anger to lead them more unfortunate, and frankly reprehensible actions.

 

So were the actions of yesterday justified? No. Were they despicable? Absolutely yes. Were they predictable? Sadly yes. As soon as I saw them, the internet being the internet and people being people I expected something like this to happen. Could it have all been avoided if communication had been handled better? Yes it could have.

Edited May 7, 2015 by ArchangelLBC