3.2.1 Marauder/Sentinel Insight: Annihilation/Watchman Rotation Design Philosophy

[Svarthrafn]

Have a complete solution to annihilation rotation. Force rend should be a passive, and proc off smash. Smash still spreading dots whoever is caught in the smash radius is applied force rend. Simple cuts the biggest problem right out of the rotation.

 

I actually like this. They could also just make it a smash-like ability that shares cooldown with smash. Like force scream/devastating blast.

[DarthVillain]

I actually like this. They could also just make it a smash-like ability that shares cooldown with smash. Like force scream/devastating blast.

 

Yes why not...... Make Annihilation as useful as Vengeance for juggs...... Especially wince they ****ed us on retaliate and we have one more dot to manage........ Love devs. Just hire me. I'll balance your PvP in a day.

[DarthVillain]

I actually like this. They could also just make it a smash-like ability that shares cooldown with smash. Like force scream/devastating blast.

 

Yes why not...... Make Annihilation as useful as Vengeance for juggs...... Especially wince they ****ed us on retaliate and we have one more dot to manage........ Love devs. Just hire me. I'll balance your PvP in a day.

[Versidious]

To return DPS? Couple of changes I'd recommend:

 

 

• For Deadly/Burning Sabers, reduce Rage/Focus cost, making it able to be activated more quickly without delaying sub-sequent rage-consuming attacks. Perhaps make it refunding?
  
• For Force Rend/Melt, give it a stacking buff (Lust for Blood/Sustained Burn) that gains stack with Rend/Melt crits. Each stack improves the effects of all DoT crits, providing a +0.5% healing improvement, and a +5% crit damage boost for DoT crits only (A general boost would likely be too powerful, and I think makes the ability/stacks a bit more coherent and flavourful).
  
• Any extra damage boosts needed, slightly improve Annihilation (The reason why I play Anni, it's SO FUN!) or the top-loading of Rupture
  

 

 

Fore Rend seems to be unpopular and makes a lot of Mara players angry, whereas you guys love it, so I would also suggest making a couple more changes to make it more appealing: Give it a range of 30m so it can be applied BEFORE leaping in (making it easier to use in a DoT-spreading fight), and improve the animation to be a bit flashier, maybe a spurt of blood/fire, or force energy?

[sjrupp]

Cross post from the Tait thread that outlines 3.2.1 arrives on the 26.

 

Guess this lines up well enough. I'll live to see Sents crippled, dare I exclaim ruined, but my sabers go dark in 38 days. I canceled my sub to protest the changes to Sents. The willful disregard of the community voice has only served to demonstrate the disconnect and disdain for so many sincere players that loved the class. The very same players that have such a passion and attachment, we considered it our class. However we realize with sadness and bitter resentment that we have been shown it is not. When the custodians and visionaries of the class opt for a path that is so clearly negative on multiple fronts, players must vote with their wallets. Every sub represents not only a monthly line item of revenue, but a potentially forecastable Cartel Market consumer as well.

 

I have read the positions that have defended the Devs, that all the posts from persons like myself, are the noise and drama drowning out the best posts by posters such as Oofalong. Yet, I contend that for every sarcastic, irate and frivolous post, there have been 5 that provided exceptional feedback taking the form of mechanic changes, mathematical models and earnest engagement. When players feel this level of affinity to your game, the class, then it becomes clear only monetary discomfort can dislodge the apathy and silence we have endured and continue to receive.

 

For those that may choose to mock my post, just remember that your class can and ultimately may be next. I supported the Sages in their struggle to prevent the confusing and illogical changes. They themselves did not stand idly by and lay down on their sabers. One player may mean very little to Devs and Managers, but the clear message being delivered is we can only bear the injury for so long until the fleeting fun we derive from a once promising and imaginative game has evaporated. Engagement from the community will dwindle and the forums represent an empty forum.

 

Perhaps I am my own hypocrite for arguing they are absent in this place. But this is more of a post meant to reach those that will remain. For all my friends, may the force be with you, if you choose to stay or go.

[oofalong]

Cross post from the Tait thread that outlines 3.2.1 arrives on the 26.

 

Guess this lines up well enough. I'll live to see Sents crippled, dare I exclaim ruined, but my sabers go dark in 38 days. I canceled my sub to protest the changes to Sents...

 

Sorry to see you go; I hope BioWare understands the impact poor engagement with the community has.

[Atlanis]

Running on GTCs and currently equipping my Guardian so that when 3.2.1. hits we are able to run Hardmode. As it stands now, since Thursday Jarkai Sword has ZERO players maining a Sent or Mara engaging in competitive endgame raiding. A 100% Drop in Hardmode Sent/Mara Population on that Server achieved well played Bioware.

 

So I am going to the Cologne Community Cantina, believing they will continue to make things worse. Please give all those angry questions and statetments in my direction, I will try to take the most reasonable. I fear anything regarding Sents/Maras will be filtered in the "unfiltered Q&A" regardless.

 

@Devs: No I have not trust in your abilities and no you don´t deserve a recurring Subscription. I might even run around on Operation passes until 2018 as I have enough Credits to buy some. My guild is great enough to hold me in the game with lots of people I also know in RL, what you bring to the table only disgusts me.

[Ardarell_Solo]

I have not yet given up on our class for 3.2.1: PTS changes are not that far from being good, actually. Only minor changes are needed for watchman imo:

 

- Remove icd/rate limit on passive focus generation

 

- Bring back cauterize proc with higher chances

 

- Make merciless refresh force melt

 

I know that automatic dot refreshing is mostly found in burst specs like Telekinetics or Tactics But they only have one dot to apply in Weaken Mind and Gut, whereas we'd still have to apply three on our targets and juggle two in our sustained phases...

 

I think dot durations and ability damage values could stay as in 3.2.1 PTS with these additions.

[Atlanis]

I have not yet given up on our class for 3.2.1: PTS changes are not that far from being good, actually. Only minor changes are needed for watchman imo:

 

- Remove icd/rate limit on passive focus generation

 

- Bring back cauterize proc with higher chances

 

- Make merciless refresh force melt

 

I know that automatic dot refreshing is mostly found in burst specs like Telekinetics or Tactics But they only have one dot to apply in Weaken Mind and Gut, whereas we'd still have to apply three on our targets and juggle two in our sustained phases...

 

I think dot durations and ability damage values could stay as in 3.2.1 PTS with these additions.

 

Still everything would stay a total unplayable mess, nope I have given up hope. I think almost everyone else has too.

[Bonzenaattori]

I'm sorry I have to say this

 

In response to this:

 

A Responsive and Reactive Rotation: Following our design philosophy of making the Annihilation/Watchman Discipline the most challenging and potentially rewarding Marauder/Sentinel Discipline to play and player feedback that the current Live Annihilation/Watchman Discipline is “boring,” “predictable,” and “easy to play,” we have designed the new rotation to require the use of a varying priority system, rather than a predetermined rotation that fits neatly within some set duration of time, in order to maximize damage output. Players will need to rethink how the rotation plays and respond carefully to each situation to get the most out of the new Annihilation/Watchman Discipline. This design lends itself to a visceral playstyle, which will see a successful Marauder/Sentinel reacting instinctively to each combat situation as it arises. This playstyle should appeal to players that prefer variance over predictability in their combat experiences.

 

Responsive and reactive? Okay, what's responsive about a Watchman?

If your dot duration ends it's your responsibility to re-apply the dot? Wow! So responsive dude!

I really hope you're not talking about cooldowns that a sentinel has at his/her disposal, because there are NO talents at all on the watchman (or any other tree) that effects your cooldowns in anyway!

SOME DUMB***** PUT THEM ALL ON THE UTILITY TREE!!! What the hell are you actually talking about!?

You stating response and reactions like it's significantly a higher quota than any other class is nothing but ignorance! Learn to play

 

 

Never Underestimate Force Rend/Force Melt: From the beginning, Force Rend/Force Melt was designed to be a longer-lasting, damage-heavy DoT ability, and this has not changed with the new rotation design. Force Rend/Force Melt packs quite a prolonged punch and feeds your Rage/Focus regeneration and self healing. Making sure that it is active on any targets that will last for 15 or more seconds is essential to maximizing damage output. Due to its longer duration, it is also an easier DoT spread than Rupture/Cauterize.

 

What!? WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!?!

Did I miss a lifelong debate about theory-crafting on whether or not Force melt was viable on Watchman!? *supress laughter*

It's a dot! WATCHMAN IS A DOT SPEC!!!

It's quintessential you use it... how can you underestimate it?! What is wrong with you?! Are you drunk? High? Do we need a Sobriety test for you sir? Anybody that questions this ability's plausibility as a Watchman... probably got Watchman mixed up with Combat or something....

 

Never Overestimate Dual Saber Throw/Twin Saber Throw: Some abilities are only designed to be used situationally. For example, as an Annihilation Marauder/Watchman Sentinel, you are only intended to use Dual Saber Throw/Twin Saber Throw in multi-target situations, while its damage is boosted by Pulverize/Mind Sear, and/or when stuck at a long distance from your enemy target

 

Overestimate? Why are you saying these things? Did you meet a confused Russian who had translation issues with the skills and decided to complain about the Watchman changes?

How can you overestimate this skill? Especially when you make a remarkably redundant point like RESPONSIVE AND REACTION BASED class *facepalm*

TST is terribad damage... giving it a 100% damage increase on a procc just makes it less terribad.

Who's overestimating this?

It's not like you're going to stop your entire rotation, freeze at that very moment and shed a tear and dedicate the entire fight in honor of the triggered Pulverize to commemorate the Loss of a loyal Twin Saber throw!

 

If Pulverize affected Strike, or Battering Assault, people would use it more than TST... you could make Pulverize affect ANYTHING and people would use it... Why? Because it's a 100% damage amp. It's not like you give Sentinel/Marauder damage amp on any other ability... unless you actually consider 5% cauterize some kind of godly damage increase that is worth a single talent in the first place...

 

 

You call this a Philosophy???

Johnny boy... I regret to inform you, I believe you just went Full McIntosh!!!

 

EDIT - I'm sorry for saying this if it hurts your feelings or makes you feel offended... it's not my intention.

It equally also is not my intention to flame you or rage at you for your... ...choices for Sentinel changes.

I give you this criticism on account of the fact that I question your motives, and I feel they are foul and I feel this thread is an ill-spoken attempt to simply minimize the feedback of what we disagree based on a simple precept of 'philosophy', as if it's some form of justification for said changes...

Remember, I hurt you because I love you. I am harsh, so you may learn!

I will continue to endure this... patch of Sentinel changes on the simple fact that I am a pain-addict. I can't hate this class, I simply cannot, but that doesn't mean I will overlook changes especially when the impact of what Guardian's (our conterpart class) has received is a bad joke in comparison.

Edited May 16, 2015 by Bonzenaattori

[Sappharan]

-snip-

 

Perhaps I am my own hypocrite for arguing they are absent in this place. But this is more of a post meant to reach those that will remain. For all my friends, may the force be with you, if you choose to stay or go.

 

We will come 'round again. The only time protesting works is when you're part of the main focus. PvP is not the main focus--so quitting will probably not make an impact. Best wishes. Hope you have reason to return soon.

[CameoCream]

One thing I'd like to know.

Why does our equivalent class A.K.A Gunslingers/Snipers parse about 400 higher than Sentinels at the moment, and we are about to lose another 300 DPS. It makes no sense, no sense at all.

 

Bioware are simply fools, and I hope Mr T pity's them.

[TACeMossie]

One thing I'd like to know.

Why does our equivalent class A.K.A Gunslingers/Snipers parse about 400 higher than Sentinels at the moment, and we are about to lose another 300 DPS. It makes no sense, no sense at all.

 

Bioware are simply fools, and I hope Mr T pity's them.

 

Every single sab/engi parse on parsely right now is wrong, as they weren't archived for 3.2's massive nerf to scatter bombs

[TACeMossie]

Still everything would stay a total unplayable mess, nope I have given up hope. I think almost everyone else has too.

 

How would it be unplayable if the only time you need to refresh force melt is in the opener? Plus without the rate limiter, you passively generate 1 focus every ~2 seconds compared to the current state of 1 every ~4, plus more GCDs to work with cause you never have to shoehorn in melt ever again

Edited May 18, 2015 by TACeMossie

[TarkTrain]

Yet another idea for a Watch/Anni rotation; been mulling it over for a few weeks. Don't think an idea like this has been posted yet, but there have been a lot of feedback posts and I haven't read all of them. Figured I would post it and see what people thought. Only done the most basic of models on this. Using Watchman terminology.

 

Force Melt - 18s DOT, no CD, costs 3 Focus (or 4, refund 1)

Cauterize - 6s DOT, 9s CD (or up to 12s), costs 2 Focus

 

New mechanic for Accelerating Victory [AV] (combines some pre and post 3.0 concepts):

Each use of Merciless Slash [MS], Zealous Strike [ZS], Strike [sT], and Slash [sL] has a 67% chance of building one stack of AV up to 2 stacks. Building a stack of AV immediately finishes the cooldown on Cauterize [C]. Each stack of AV increases the tick rate of your next Force Melt [FM] by 16.67% and reduces the cost of your next FM by 1 focus. All stacks are consumed by your next FM.

 

The goal being that on average two out of every three opportunities would result in a Caut CD reset (so on average, Caut is applied 3 out of every 4 MS blocks). Filler for missed Caut proc is Master Strike. If you are unlucky and get 2 out of 3 blocks that miss proc, Master Strike will be on CD for the second block so you will have to get creative. At the same time, we are trying to build 2 stacks of AV every 2 MS blocks. 2 stacks of AV would cause FM to tick 33.33% faster meaning it becomes a 12s DOT. The 67% chance for each ability results in about a 75% chance of getting 2 stacks with 3 abilities used, and about 89% with 4 abilities used. If you only get 1 stack or 0 stacks, FM is a 15s or 18s DOT respectively and when you reapply would change. This creates a very dynamic rotation that (IMO) would also be quite difficult to master.

 

"Average" rotation:

MS - FM - C - F

MS - MST - MST - F (no Caut proc)

MS - FM - C - F (w/ 2 stacks AV)

MS - F - C - F (w/ Caut proc)

 

Focus needed: MS(4 X 3) + C(3X2) + FM(2X1) + MST(0) + OS(2X2) = 24

Focus generators in filler spots: FL(2X4) + ZS(6) = 14

Which is a net -10 every 24s not including two open fillers. Given that we should be generating approximately 1 focus every 2 to 2.5 seconds, this should be manageable. Because FM duration can vary as well, there are a lot of other possibilities, but since the focus cost of FM is also variable, these should, at least partially, offset. Focus needs will go up if you get Caut proc for all 4 blocks, but you would also theoretically be doing more damage.

 

Anyway, just thought I would get this idea out there.

[Pztgst]

I am going to preface this with a few facts and things of note.

• I have been playing marauder since beta
  
• I have been fairly quiet up to this point
  
• This class is what makes the game enjoyable to me
  
• I have seen this pattern before and it is not a path that leads in a good direction
  

 

I do not wish to cause chaos, nor do i not wish to see this thread descend into such due to others. But there comes a time where i must stop holding my tongue and make myself heard in regards to your "Philosophy" toward marauders since 3.0.

 

I had been hopeful that these changes since 3.0 where intermediary and would not change the overall philosophy of the marauder in how it functions. However so far these changes seem to be straying farther and farther away from what annihilation/watchman was always about, and what made me love the spec. I would like to see an open dialogue between the combat team and the community to really understand where you are going and why you have decided to gut Annihilation/Watchman, effectively throwing out the existing philosophy behind the spec, and start from the ground up with an apparently new fundamental ideal of how the class works. It is no secret that the marauder community is not happy with the changes and i do not condone the actions of a few bad apples, however there is a distinct missing link between what the community wants, and what the combat team apparently has planned.

 

I have to wonder if there are any on the combat team that have played the spec as their main spec for any length of time in PvE who are contributing to this new direction that Annihilation/Watchman is being taken in. If there are none among you who fall under this category, i would suggest that you find a way to get one. I would offer my services both as a developer and as an avid raider who uses an Annihilation/Watchman as my main (at least before 3.0) to help guide the marauder back in the direction that it should go. I also have to wonder how much the suits upstairs are influencing this, which seems to happen all too much when EA is involved.

 

As it stands, i am becoming less and less able to play my preferred class, having my raid lead tell me that i wont loose anything if i switch to a Sniper/Slinger, relegating my marauder/sentinel to daily farming; In fact, even going so far as to say we will make a special run to gear it should clearly illuminate that there is a critical fault in the system as it stands. There comes a point where enough is enough, and i can no longer use those i raid with as justification enough to keep paying you for a game that has decided to cease giving me what i really want. Show us that you care, show us that you are willing to listen, or the community will eventually disappear and with them go so many good resources and players that could have been utilized to make the game better than ever, as well as the ability to recover some temporary bad choices in design.

 

I hope that this does not fall on deaf ears, and that it may reach someone who can actually make a difference before it is too late. I will not be holding my breath though; the recent track record does not leave much room for hope.

[Letsjet]

I thought we wanted some defense????? NO???? Back on the shelf.

[Nomaad]

My marauder was my main since launch, leveled it to 60, and just stopped playing it, could no longer stomach the extremely boring and dull wet noodle style of play, still has set bonus from last expansion, no way am I going to waste my time playing a class that I loved now that I *********** hate so much now.

[Atlanis]

Still no reaction from the Devs side....we only got 8 days left to equip or Alts. Anyone got a good wording for a T-Shirt to wear at the cologne community cantina that is not insulting. Lately I fall to the dark side everytime I think about Bioware^^

[Bare-Giin]

Make smash free! Also merge Expounging camoflage with phantom is all I got to say. Edited May 18, 2015 by Bare-Giin

[Darth_Riv]

Do not underestimate the response of experienced knowledgeable players leaving the game or stopping to help you improve your game due to your insistence in continuing to move in a direction that goes completely against what your players want. Dialog on your end that has an insulting tone to it has not and will never improve anything. I'm going to remind you that it was your experienced, knowledgeable players that saved the Annihilation/Watchman spec from being completely unplayable in 3.0 testing.

 

I am 7/10 in the current tier of HMs on my annihilation marauder and the only one ( at the time of this post ) from Harbinger with decent HM Torque kill parses on the Parsely leader board site. The force rend dot spreading direction needs to go away. In Ravagers and ToS, there is rarely a good opportunity to dot spread and when I do, it interrupts the flow of the rotation and has next to no effect in the outcome of the fight.

 

 

Malaphar: The adds need to be tanked outside the circle for the tanks to drop their savage stacks. By the time a marauder can jump to the adds, and apply dots the marauder has lost his/her savage stacks and the damage from a dot spread is worthless compared to ranged aoe's fully buffed damage standing in the circle. The marauder outputs more dps by staying on the boss.

 

Sword Squadron: There's nothing to spread dots to besides the targeting droid which is terrible because you quite often end up putting a ground burst missile circle right under the walker where the bomb carrier needs to be in order to get the shield off. I can do more dps by being on Walker #2 for the majority of the fight due to the interruptions of the shield coming up and being removed and not cause problems with a core boss mechanic.

 

Underlurker: The adds are so spread out that a marauder dot spread can't reach them while you have ranged dps aoe's that can if placed correctly.

 

Revanite Commanders: Only fight that has good opportunity for marauder dot spread especially when gathering adds under Sano’s shield to aoe them down.

 

Revan: Haven’t seen the fight in HM yet, but according to guides there are still no adds that a dot spread can be used on.

 

Sparky: Adds take 50% less damage under the circle so dot spreading from the boss is out. By the time the adds are grouped up, jumped to, dotted, and smashed, aoe’s from the other dps in the group have already nuked their hp low enough that you might get one dot tick before they go down. Huge dps lost as compared to staying on the boss. Dot spreading the mass of adds at the end of the fight is pointless as they only go down after the boss is dead. Of course you can just run out of the room and let them despawn too so once again, pointless to dot spread.

 

Bulo: Adds are killed by mechanics, nothing to dot spread.

 

Torque: Occasional limited chances to spread dots to a laser droid or turrets. Ranged aoe is far more effective for adds in this fight. The marauder’s main purpose in this fight is all out nuking the boss while playing a game of dodge the floor vent fires.

 

Master & Blaster: Still nothing to dot spread on HM.

 

Coratanni: Haven’t seen the fight in HM, but according to guides still nothing to dot spread.

 

 

This is nothing new. The community has told you many times. Focusing the spec around force rend and dot spreading only stands to hurt it. Who in their right mind would want higher difficulty for worse return? It’s completely absurd.

 

I don’t know…maybe you'll finally wake up when you've lost all community support and the game has been run completely into the ground.

[DuckimusPrime]

This is nothing new. The community has told you many times. Focusing the spec around force rend and dot spreading only stands to hurt it. Who in their right mind would want higher difficulty for worse return? It’s completely absurd.

 

I don’t know…maybe you'll finally wake up when you've lost all community support and the game has been run completely into the ground.

 

Its even worse. The self healing received from a single target is being nerfed because of dot spreading.

[TACeMossie]

Its even worse. The self healing received from a single target is being nerfed because of dot spreading.

 

Actually, napkin maths states the self healing goes up, but only with 100% uptime on DoTs. But then again, the rotation is stupid and...

 

"Kwerty proceeded to ramble on and on about the same thing that was repeated over 15 pages in this thread, and over 40 pages over both the sent/mara forums and the multiple PTS cycles. You don't really want to have to sit through it again do you?"

[DuckimusPrime]

Actually, napkin maths states the self healing goes up, but only with 100% uptime on DoTs.

If thats truly the case then its just another blow to the combat teams competency considering John's stated goal in the self healing thread.

 

On a single target, the HPS has been slightly decreased. This is by design to counterbalance the vastly improved self healing provided by DoTing multiple targets. With the new Hemorrhaging Smash/Burning Sweep Smash/Force Sweep cooldown reduction, spreading DoTs is easier and more fluid than on Live. This should drastically increase the self healing and DPS potential of Annihilation/Watchman players combating multiple targets.

[Ardarell_Solo]

In all the parses I had done on PTS self healing was between 10 HPs and 40 HPs lower than on live parses (1 Mio Dummy). That's with a rotation that had keeping Dots up as first priority. But: As stated before, passive and active focus generation are designed in a way that you will focus cap at certain points in your rotation and lack focus at other points. So while mathematically self healing may have gone up, it's not playable in a way that self healing goes up. So in reality self healing on single targets has been nerfed as stated. But only because the rotation in general has been nerfed to being factually unplayable...