3.2.1 Marauder/Sentinel Insight: Annihilation/Watchman Rotation Design Philosophy

[theblackjon]

Calm down everyone, I took some time to translate.

Step 1: DoT up with Force Rend.

Step 2: LoS and heal to full.

 

And all we need to do is start using Dual Saber Throw when it procs! That'll let us make them pay!

 

Can't believe no one thought of doing that.

[DarkNecroCrusher]

Ok then !

 

Please all players here on the game since the release or RotHC, L2P and stop QQ, devs know more than you do how a sent/mara should be played !!!

 

You have been playing your char for, I don't know, thousands of hours, but the dev team knows how to play more than you do, deal with it !

 

BW, show us some vids tutorials and in game footage when you play a sentinel/marauder in HL content OPs and in PvP against, I don't know, a team full of shadows/sins, sages/sorcs and VGs/PTs like it's often the case !

 

Do this and show us your almighty skill and knowledge of the class and then we will try to consider your L2P ******** !

 

Insulting your playerbase after ignoring them for more than 6 months is really a bad idea.

 

Bad devs are bad devs, and bad communication is bad communication !

[Costello]

Hey everyone,

 

Continuing our threads that lend insight on recent design changes, we will be sharing some of our Annihilation/Watchman design philosophies and offering perspectives from our extensive internal testing of the new Annihilation/Watchman rotation.

 

Annihilation/Watchman Rotation Design Philosophy:

 

• A Responsive and Reactive Rotation: Following our design philosophy of making the Annihilation/Watchman Discipline the most challenging and potentially rewarding Marauder/Sentinel Discipline to play and player feedback that the current Live Annihilation/Watchman Discipline is “boring,” “predictable,” and “easy to play,” we have designed the new rotation to require the use of a varying priority system, rather than a predetermined rotation that fits neatly within some set duration of time, in order to maximize damage output. Players will need to rethink how the rotation plays and respond carefully to each situation to get the most out of the new Annihilation/Watchman Discipline. This design lends itself to a visceral playstyle, which will see a successful Marauder/Sentinel reacting instinctively to each combat situation as it arises. This playstyle should appeal to players that prefer variance over predictability in their combat experiences.
   
  
• Never Underestimate Force Rend/Force Melt: From the beginning, Force Rend/Force Melt was designed to be a longer-lasting, damage-heavy DoT ability, and this has not changed with the new rotation design. Force Rend/Force Melt packs quite a prolonged punch and feeds your Rage/Focus regeneration and self healing. Making sure that it is active on any targets that will last for 15 or more seconds is essential to maximizing damage output. Due to its longer duration, it is also an easier DoT spread than Rupture/Cauterize.
   
  
• Never Overestimate Dual Saber Throw/Twin Saber Throw: Some abilities are only designed to be used situationally. For example, as an Annihilation Marauder/Watchman Sentinel, you are only intended to use Dual Saber Throw/Twin Saber Throw in multi-target situations, while its damage is boosted by Pulverize/Mind Sear, and/or when stuck at a long distance from your enemy target.

 

Cheers, all!

John

 

Seems the opinion is that your telling Annihilation/Watchman spec to learn to play.

 

Please can we get a feed of the combat team playing Ravagers and TOS on HM with one of each of the mara/sent specs to show us what we should be doing and what we are doing wrong to show us how to play. This would help support the suggestion that we need to learn to play and make everyones experience with this AC much better.

[FerkWork]

Calm down everyone, I took some time to translate.

Step 1: DoT up with Force Rend.

Step 2: LoS and heal to full.

 

And all we need to do is start using Dual Saber Throw when it procs! That'll let us make them pay!

 

Can't believe no one thought of doing that.

 

 

 

Thanks BW for telling me to L2P

[Death_By_Smiley]

Dis gun b gud

 

http://imgur.com/coswVLP.gif

Edited May 6, 2015 by Death_By_Smiley

[sumquy]

just my opinion, but it seems to me that the problem with anni mara has more to do with the homoginization of all dot specs to a single template. i.e. they must have 2 dots and be spreadable. this works well for other classes because the dots and the spreader were already part of the rotation. square peg anni/watch refuses to fit into that round hole though. anni maras didn't use smash in their rotation before 3.0, but now is mandatory or your dps suffers. no mara/anni anywhere in the game was asking for another dot to manage, but conformity demanded it.

 

at what point do the devs just admit that it was a bad idea so that we can talk about how to fix it.

Edited May 6, 2015 by sumquy

[Arkhonos]

I'm very curious about how developers test rotations and do class balance. There's clearly a disconnect between the community and Bioware with regards to Annihilation. Edited May 7, 2015 by Arkhonos

[PallyHk]

I would like Annihilation to be what it was.

 

Very good dps on a single target. This should be the discipline for taking something on one on one.

 

Honestly I wish stronger regular attacks like Annihilate and Ravage (on the move!) and a better heal for the dots. The 15% PTS heal is just very little.

 

Take tips from Hatred Assassin and Vengeance Juggernaut. Vengeance Juggernaut is basically a better Annihilation.

 

Also, the Dual saber mastery should be buffed back to what it was and made a baseline for all marauders.

 

We got two weapons for extra damage. The second weapon should be more than a 10% damage increase. It should MATTER.

[shermanwizard]

The Devs admit fault for this screw up of one class? Are you dreaming out there in the SWTOR community? To question the wisdom of the Devs is as pointless as questioning the motives of the Pope in the Vatican. The way they screwed over Serenity/Hatred should tell you they don't care. The only option I see to fix this is to make more noise and complain louder than the real trouble makers in this game. It's known as the PvP crowd. The moment they get ignored is when this game finally might have hope of being enjoyable again.

[Barnard]

I'm sorry but the blame for this squarely rest with all the players who asked for a dynamic rotation like it was in 2.10. You reap what you sow. I was vehemently opposed to bringing back a proc on Cauterize. You gave them a stupid idea and they ran with it. Don't complain that they didn't run the right way with an idea. They never do and you should have never suggested changing the rotation. Edited May 6, 2015 by Barnard

[KurganNazzir]

And though I love dev communication, these last two posts have read a lot like, "Look, we read your feedback. Even understood it. But we don't give a ****. This is our game. We do what we want. Learn 2 play, scrubs."

 

This shouldn't be surprising, this has been their view the entire existence of the game. They constantly make changes because players aren't playing the way BioWare wants us to, and they remind us of that all the time. They want us to be clones and to only play the way that they envision things even though it often seems they don't even play their own game. At this rate, we're going to end up with one "begin combat" button that we press and it will go through whatever rotation BioWare likes at the time since everyone is apparently always doing it wrong. Hey, no more people complaining of skill bloat, so another plus for BioWare.

[Barnard]

And a big thank you to all the players who helped get this disciple screwed up. I have played a Sentinel since beta and always preferred Watchman. This will effectively kill Watchman as a single target discipline. Time to play Combat as it actually has a rotation and can put up just about as much DPS as 3.0 Watchman. I'm sorry but you really screwed up Watchman and it really hurts me.

[Atlanis]

Hey everyone,

 

Continuing our threads that lend insight on recent design changes, we will be sharing some of our Annihilation/Watchman design philosophies and offering perspectives from our extensive internal testing of the new Annihilation/Watchman rotation.

 

Annihilation/Watchman Rotation Design Philosophy:

 

• A Responsive and Reactive Rotation: Following our design philosophy of making the Annihilation/Watchman Discipline the most challenging and potentially rewarding Marauder/Sentinel Discipline to play and player feedback that the current Live Annihilation/Watchman Discipline is “boring,” “predictable,” and “easy to play,” we have designed the new rotation to require the use of a varying priority system, rather than a predetermined rotation that fits neatly within some set duration of time, in order to maximize damage output. Players will need to rethink how the rotation plays and respond carefully to each situation to get the most out of the new Annihilation/Watchman Discipline. This design lends itself to a visceral playstyle, which will see a successful Marauder/Sentinel reacting instinctively to each combat situation as it arises. This playstyle should appeal to players that prefer variance over predictability in their combat experiences.
   
  
• Never Underestimate Force Rend/Force Melt: From the beginning, Force Rend/Force Melt was designed to be a longer-lasting, damage-heavy DoT ability, and this has not changed with the new rotation design. Force Rend/Force Melt packs quite a prolonged punch and feeds your Rage/Focus regeneration and self healing. Making sure that it is active on any targets that will last for 15 or more seconds is essential to maximizing damage output. Due to its longer duration, it is also an easier DoT spread than Rupture/Cauterize.
   
  
• Never Overestimate Dual Saber Throw/Twin Saber Throw: Some abilities are only designed to be used situationally. For example, as an Annihilation Marauder/Watchman Sentinel, you are only intended to use Dual Saber Throw/Twin Saber Throw in multi-target situations, while its damage is boosted by Pulverize/Mind Sear, and/or when stuck at a long distance from your enemy target.

 

Cheers, all!

John

 

Basicly you are telling me to l2play..............I will need lots of really ripe and nice smelling fruit.

 

Well John the following:

 

Oofalong, Norton, Adrell, myself and many many many other Sents have tested the "piece of modern art" you threw at us again as of 3.2.1. Conclusion was and is: No matter what you do you can´t reach the DPS you perform on live as of 3.2.. I even ran a "NO AP" Statbuild at one point so devastated I was at what you had done. There is no freaking way to stay in endgame as a Sentinel anymore after 3.2.1. changes. The DPS is far to low to even think about running hardmode operations. I tried different Rotation Setups the DPS loss ranged from 300 (min) to 1k (max) on the Training Dummy. Could you suck up you Developper pride and do what people more experienced with the actual class gameplay tell you? We ar right and you and your combat team have messed up and are wrong. Seriously apologize to us and get us and implement what Adrell, Norton, Oofalong, Xeoh, myself and the other half a dozen major contributers agree on into a PTS. It is not that hard to say know if we find out we totally nuke everyone in two GCDs, but it would build a lot of trust you have lost.

 

I have personally many ten thousands of hours of playtime on a Watchman Sentinel I believe thats more then all Bioware employes have together. Same goes for all those other major contributors. I don´t think you have any right to tell us l2play, we tested every thinkable method to make this piece of brown stuff work, but it doesn´t. Just suck up your pride and listen to us. Jesus I would have fired the people responsible for such a PR missmanagement already. I did by the way at some point remove someone from office for an equally mad PR missmanagement.

 

P.S.: I might remind the same thing that is 3.2.1. had been on 3.0. PTS and the minor tweaks don´t qualify for being 3.2.1. beeing any less useless then the 3.0. stuff.

[johnpickard]

Today , 09:29 PM | #37

I'm sorry but the blame for this squarely rest with all the players who asked for a dynamic rotation like it was in 2.10. You reap what you sow. I was vehemently opposed to bringing back a proc on Cauterize. You gave them a stupid idea and they ran with it. Don't complain that they didn't run the right way with an idea. They never do and you should have never suggested changing the rotation.

 

Theres always one, always one who thinks the players are to blame for the dev's incompetence. GG.

[cmorea]

You said we'd be in control if the "fate" of the watchmen rotation. Then we get posts like this. "Never underestimate force melt," NOBODY likes it. Stop trying to jam this lame ability down our throats. This guy has the audacity to put cheers all with an exclamation point at the end of his post that really read since you don't agree with us at the Dev team you no longer get input for the class. I'm sure you're just upset we don't like this new ability you specially crafted for our class....

[KaiserTNT]

If 3.0 Anni had been the play-style since beta, I doubt there would be a problem. But I just don't know how the Devs thought there would be no backlash for completely redesigning --aka destroying -- the play-style of one of the most popular specs -- it's not like it was the old Hatred Assassin where nobody played it, so do whatever and hope it works out.

 

Players invested hundreds of hours leveling, learning, and raiding with the class because THEY LIKED IT, and then 3.0 comes along and pulls the rug out: "Here guys, we know this isn't what you signed up for during last 2.5 years and over levels 1-55, but have a totally new play-style, because 'nebulous reasons'!"

 

It would be like AT&T suddenly deciding to push out IOS to all the Android phones on their network "just because". People would rage, justifiably, because that isn't what they bought into originally. The same thing applies here. Bioware's oldest customers who leveled Mara pre 3.0 aren't ever going to be happy until they get the return of what brought them to the class initially, or at least something very close.

Edited May 6, 2015 by KaiserTNT

[Barnard]

Theres always one, always one who thinks the players are to blame for the dev's incompetence. GG.

 

No but people honestly need to stop trying to fundamentally change a class. The Devs are clueless and will always do the wrong thing when you ask. Watchman 3.0 was boring but it was playable. People asked for it to be changed to be more "FUN" and the Devs did just that. Too bad their idea of "FUN" doesn't match anyone else's idea of "FUN."

[Atlanis]

No but people honestly need to stop trying to fundamentally change a class. The Devs are clueless and will always do the wrong thing when you ask. Watchman 3.0 was boring but it was playable. People asked for it to be changed to be more "FUN" and the Devs did just that. Too bad their idea of "FUN" doesn't match anyone else's idea of "FUN."

 

Get lost. Nobody likes Bioware fanboys in these lands. They messed up and everybody knows it, I think players with more playtime on a Sentinel then all of Bioware together are more then qualified to suggest changes. So get lost our contribute in a way that helps the class.

[Barnard]

Get lost. Nobody likes Bioware fanboys in these lands. They messed up and everybody knows it, I think players with more playtime on a Sentinel then all of Bioware together are more then qualified to suggest changes. So get lost our contribute in a way that helps the class.

 

I am no fanboy and I am just as angry as everyone else. I recently shelved my Sentinel after 3+ years of raiding for a Commando. I may still play my Sentinel as Combat, but progression raiding in this tier will just be even worse now. I love my Sentinel and I loved Watchman even as the pendulum has swung between bad to overpowered and back to bad.

 

I did contribute and made suggestions as well. I even agree with a lot of the suggestions players offered, especially with utilities and dot spread. The Devs are incompetent and have historically shown to take player feedback and twist it to something completely different. The Devs are to blame for this mess of destroying Watchman but players asking for it to be a reactive rotation got what they asked for, just not how they wanted it.

 

Some people were asking for the dot duration to be reduced, and that was a way to go. This wouldn't be nearly the mess it is if Force Rend/Melt still lined up. Reducing cauterize to 6 seconds and Rend/Melt to 12 (or leaving at 18) would be far more playable than 3.2.1 is going to be.

 

The healing on dots is another issue and we never asked for that, it is also helping to kill Watchman. I also don't think anyone ever wanted Watchman to do more AOE damage before 3.0. Nerfing healing due to the "potential" to do more from AOE is just silly. Rarely can you effectively DOT spread in PvP and in OPS its useless for boss fights. Who cares if I can heal myself for slightly more clearing trash or doing dailies.

[Barnard]

I also honestly feel they are forcing this (knowing no one wants it) because they have to put some change in for 3.2.1 after the healing changes got rolled back. Can't waste a whole patch cycle on nothing or they might look bad! /sarcasm

[Atlanis]

I also honestly feel they are forcing this (knowing no one wants it) because they have to put some change in for 3.2.1 after the healing changes got rolled back. Can't waste a whole patch cycle on nothing or they might look bad! /sarcasm

 

Oh then they should shove down those healing changes and remove the mess we have, it is not like the healers would be unplayable through those changes.

[TW-Cool]

• A Responsive and Reactive Rotation: Following our design philosophy of making the Annihilation/Watchman Discipline the most challenging and potentially rewarding Marauder/Sentinel Discipline to play and player feedback that the current Live Annihilation/Watchman Discipline is “boring,” “predictable,” and “easy to play,” we have designed the new rotation to require the use of a varying priority system, rather than a predetermined rotation that fits neatly within some set duration of time, in order to maximize damage output. Players will need to rethink how the rotation plays and respond carefully to each situation to get the most out of the new Annihilation/Watchman Discipline. This design lends itself to a visceral playstyle, which will see a successful Marauder/Sentinel reacting instinctively to each combat situation as it arises. This playstyle should appeal to players that prefer variance over predictability in their combat experiences.

 
If that means you are going back to the 2.x rotation, cool. However, based upon everyone else replies, I assume it means you are trying something different. And to put it simply, I am scared.
 
I myself just wanted the fun 2.x rotation back. I'd even take the early 2.x style back before you buffed us towards the end. I didnt are about predictability. I wanted fun since this is a game afterall. I enjoyed hearing my female sentinel shouting "Hey!" when she was excited to see her Cauterize jumped off of cool down. In 3.0 we got Force Rend, which looks like a boring version of Blade Storm.
 

• Never Underestimate Force Rend/Force Melt: From the beginning, Force Rend/Force Melt was designed to be a longer-lasting, damage-heavy DoT ability, and this has not changed with the new rotation design. Force Rend/Force Melt packs quite a prolonged punch and feeds your Rage/Focus regeneration and self healing. Making sure that it is active on any targets that will last for 15 or more seconds is essential to maximizing damage output. Due to its longer duration, it is also an easier DoT spread than Rupture/Cauterize.
   
  
• Never Overestimate Dual Saber Throw/Twin Saber Throw: Some abilities are only designed to be used situationally. For example, as an Annihilation Marauder/Watchman Sentinel, you are only intended to use Dual Saber Throw/Twin Saber Throw in multi-target situations, while its damage is boosted by Pulverize/Mind Sear, and/or when stuck at a long distance from your enemy target.

 

Currently, I'd like to think that any average to strong Sent/Mara player knows the importance of Force Melt. The fact that you think you need to inform the forum readers (who are most likely average to above average players) how to play the class is funny.

 

Also, TST is one of the coolest moves we have, visually. You might notice in your statistical data that are are using it more often than we should. I just wanted to make you think that it could be because we simply like to see our toons throw our sabers.

 

As a final note, I do have a Jedi Guardian I can switch to my PVE main. He already PVPs for me though... please dont force him to become my PVEr as well. (I know, I'm a sucker for punishment for liking melee so much.)

[Barnard]

Oh then they should shove down those healing changes and remove the mess we have, it is not like the healers would be unplayable through those changes.

 

I have never been angrier at BW than I am now. I read the changes and flew home from work to post. I am heartbroken over what they have done to my favorite class and spec with this patch. From Watchman rotation to the total lack of understanding of our problems with utilities this patch is just utter garbage. The worst part is that this all feels like it is out of spite or just to try and save face.

[Ardarell_Solo]

If 3.0 Anni had been the play-style since beta, I doubt there would be a problem. But I just don't know how the Devs thought there would be no backlash for completely redesigning --aka destroying -- the play-style of one of the most popular specs -- it's not like it was the old Hatred Assassin where nobody played it, so do whatever and hope it works out.

 

Players invested hundreds of hours leveling, learning, and raiding with the class because THEY LIKED IT, and then 3.0 comes along and pulls the rug out: "Here guys, we know this isn't what you signed up for during last 2.5 years and over levels 1-55, but have a totally new play-style, because 'nebulous reasons'!"

 

It would be like AT&T suddenly deciding to push out IOS to all the Android phones on their network "just because". People would rage, justifiably, because that isn't what they bought into originally. The same thing applies here. Bioware's oldest customers who leveled Mara pre 3.0 aren't ever going to be happy until they get the return of what brought them to the class initially, or at least something very close.

 

That might just be the best desciption of what happened and why it's wrong.

[Darkknightfk]

Couldn't you just have slapped me in the face? Would have stung less.