Update on Sentinel and Marauder

[TACeMossie]

TL;DR SUMMARY OF OP. READ THIS INSTEAD OF OP BEFORE GETTING MAD

 

1. Bioware determines class balance by win rates. Meaning, if you rerolled in the pre-season because you thought sents sucked, then your lack of skill won't bring the win rates down. Meaning, since only good players are playing sents, its inflating its win rate. The devs not bothering with fixing sents is because You skewed the data in Sentinels/Marauders favour by rerolling, reducing the chance of the devs bothering to fix it

 

2. The capabilities of each spec are fine. The issue is getting said damage out. THE DEVS ARE LOOKING AT INCREASING MOBILITY AND UTILITY FOR SENTINELS/MARAUDERS, WHICH IS WHERE THE PROBLEMS ARE.

 

3. The less skilled players are flocking to Fury/Concentration, so obviously that spec is going to be the worst performing in PvP by win rate simply cause all the bads are playing it. This means the devs will look at this spec before the other ones.

 

Now, when we look at that, I can see where the devs are coming from. They don't have any info from the worse players when it comes to combat/carnage or Watchman/Annihilation, because everyone either rerolled or respecced. The devs are fixing the specs that their data tells them are underperforming, which is cause all the people who didn't reroll are using it. If you want a better dev response when it comes to fixing sents/marauders, you need to use Watchman/Annihilation and Combat/Carnage in ranked more often, to bring their win rates to the levels they should be based on their skillset and stuff.

Edited April 7, 2015 by TACeMossie

[OmegaStatuZ]

YOU DAMN FOOL !

 

haven't you realised that blizzard used the " FOTM " all the time ? that was made to force customer to reroll again and again, the situation will be even worst !

 

hahahaaha oh sarcasm the double edged sword that you are, was trying to be silly/funny but i do stand by step 1 and half of step 2.

[KaellSolaris]

As community manager, does his role serve as liaison between us and the "Combat Team"? If so, he needs to sort out whatever the disconnect is, not make us understand that the Combat Team is correct. Or is he merely a messenger?

 

Only a messenger I guess. he is the guy witch make the link between Bioware team's and us.

 

He say what they told him to say, and write articles on the subject the team's want to share or answer.

[Nightkin]

I understand you guys are angry, but hey...atleast you got an answer :/

I have been trying to get a answer, any answer actually since PTS of 3.0 about merc pvp viability.

Lets see the results...

 

1: Ignored on every forum

2: Tried in game posts but only got the pre written droid nonsense

3: Tried Twitch Swtor live stream and got banned for asking questions when they were busy with "stuff"

4: Tried with new forum posts every PTS update since 3.0 and kept them bumped forever

 

End result?

Nothing, stonewalled, forum warnings, banned from stream and more nothing.

[Ld-Siris]

I understand you guys are angry, but hey...atleast you got an answer :/

I have been trying to get a answer, any answer actually since PTS of 3.0 about merc pvp viability.

Lets see the results...

 

1: Ignored on every forum

2: Tried in game posts but only got the pre written droid nonsense

3: Tried Twitch Swtor live stream and got banned for asking questions when they were busy with "stuff"

4: Tried with new forum posts every PTS update since 3.0 and kept them bumped forever

 

End result?

Nothing, stonewalled, forum warnings, banned from stream and more nothing.

 

Um they said a while ago that they were buffing Merc survivability.

[Kyuuu]

Can think of this way the balance in ragnarok online, is 5x worse then in this game and anyone that played the mmo knows this, not to say this dont have is issue. but imo balance in this game how ever unblanced it is, is still far better then Ragnarok online.

 

I would like my marauder to have use again in raid and actual be wanted new raids are all skewed toward range. and pvp yah i just wont pvp with marauder atm,

[Savej]

TL;DR SUMMARY OF OP. READ THIS INSTEAD OF OP BEFORE GETTING MAD

 

1. Bioware determines class balance by win rates...

 

Yes, but looking at the current solo board we don't see maras winning. The average rating (rating is basically a win/loss measure) of maras is at the very bottom of every ac in this game. It's not "close" to 50%.

[ped_i]

Only a messenger I guess. he is the guy witch make the link between Bioware team's and us.

 

He say what they told him to say, and write articles on the subject the team's want to share or answer.

 

He is also suppose to inform them about our concerns cause the devs don't always read the forums

GG. Eric Musco is an epic fail. WTB the original community team

[TACeMossie]

Yes, but looking at the current solo board we don't see maras winning. The average rating (rating is basically a win/loss measure) of maras is at the very bottom of every ac in this game. It's not "close" to 50%.

 

Not really, rating isn't wins / losses, but rather wins - losses. If you played 11 games and won 10 of them, your win rate will be massive - ~91%, though your rating will only be something like 1700. Meanwhile, if you played 1100 games and won 700 of them, your win rate would be ~63%, but your rating would be over 2k easily.

[Savej]

Not really, rating isn't wins / losses, but rather wins - losses. If you played 11 games and won 10 of them, your win rate will be massive - ~91%, though your rating will only be something like 1700. Meanwhile, if you played 1100 games and won 700 of them, your win rate would be ~63%, but your rating would be over 2k easily.

 

Yes it's not exactly a win/loss ratio but it's enough of one to throw at the "50+% wins" ratio mentioned in the original post. The only numbers we can see are very different from the ones they are stating.

[maverickmatt]

Not really, rating isn't wins / losses, but rather wins - losses. If you played 11 games and won 10 of them, your win rate will be massive - ~91%, though your rating will only be something like 1700. Meanwhile, if you played 1100 games and won 700 of them, your win rate would be ~63%, but your rating would be over 2k easily.

 

nevermind

Edited April 7, 2015 by maverickmatt

[JackNader]

It only took them 4 months to realize that bolster is broken. Seriously, all they had to do was play a grand total of 1 mid bracket PvP game and look at peoples health bars. Where were their metric gods on Bolster? How did they not see that one? It's time they start playing the game or hiring actual skilled game testers to play it for them. Edited April 7, 2015 by JackNader

[micnevv]

Deleted Edited June 3, 2015 by micnevv

[The_X]

Combat team, are you retarded? Being carried by Sins etc means marauders are ok? (Large block of raging text deleted, insert whatever insults directed towards combat team here) NOBODY is ************ about dps output. Nobody. Do you even read? Clearly you don't. You sure as **** don't play marauders, if you even play the game at all. I have no faith in the combat team or the devs in general. I hope you know YOU are killing the game. Yes. You are. Though to be honest, I suspect Disney paid you all off to do just that so they could buy the rights from EA and make their own game.

[EenVooral]

Forgot to add this in my previous post: In relation to the Devs use of "number theory," anyone else remember this from the Livestream in November 2014:

 

What is the target DPS for DPS on target dummies?

DPS classes should have DPS fall in within 10% of each other (or 5% of a target number) assuming same gear and optimal rotation.

Different disciplines have different target number but if you have 198 gear with full operation debuffs on the target, sustained melee should do 4325. Burst melee/sustained ranged should do 4125ish. Burst range should do 3925ish. If you are no where close to the target number, then your discipline is either going to get buffed or nerfed.

So, what currently is the top parse, 5400 dps, by Commandos/Mercs and Sages/Sorcs? the highest Sent/Mara parse I've seen thus far is around 4800. It was also mentioned in the Q&A of that same Livestream that melee dps should have a higher base dps than ranged due to positional mechanics, etc. (paraphrasing). Yeah, not happening.

 

My point here is two-fold: 1) Pure statistical numbers never translate to actual mechanics, and 2) Sents/Maras base dps DOES need to be buffed, if the above target dps goal is to hold true.

[ped_i]

Forgot to add this in my previous post: In relation to the Devs use of "number theory," anyone else remember this from the Livestream in November 2014:

 

What is the target DPS for DPS on target dummies?

DPS classes should have DPS fall in within 10% of each other (or 5% of a target number) assuming same gear and optimal rotation.

Different disciplines have different target number but if you have 198 gear with full operation debuffs on the target, sustained melee should do 4325. Burst melee/sustained ranged should do 4125ish. Burst range should do 3925ish. If you are no where close to the target number, then your discipline is either going to get buffed or nerfed.

So, what currently is the top parse, 5400 dps, by Commandos/Mercs and Sages/Sorcs? the highest Sent/Mara parse I've seen thus far is around 4800. It was also mentioned in the Q&A of that same Livestream that melee dps should have a higher base dps than ranged due to positional mechanics, etc. (paraphrasing). Yeah, not happening.

 

My point here is two-fold: 1) Pure statistical numbers never translate to actual mechanics, and 2) Sents/Maras base dps DOES need to be buffed, if the above target dps goal is to hold true.

 

Highest Sentinel parse on a 1mil dummy is 5200, again dps is not there issue. stop making it all about the dps. and commando and sage nerfs are coming. the issue which clearly the devs can't figure out is the lack of mobility survivability and time on target. and don't get me start on watchman.

[TACeMossie]

Forgot to add this in my previous post: In relation to the Devs use of "number theory," anyone else remember this from the Livestream in November 2014:

 

What is the target DPS for DPS on target dummies?

DPS classes should have DPS fall in within 10% of each other (or 5% of a target number) assuming same gear and optimal rotation.

Different disciplines have different target number but if you have 198 gear with full operation debuffs on the target, sustained melee should do 4325. Burst melee/sustained ranged should do 4125ish. Burst range should do 3925ish. If you are no where close to the target number, then your discipline is either going to get buffed or nerfed.

So, what currently is the top parse, 5400 dps, by Commandos/Mercs and Sages/Sorcs? the highest Sent/Mara parse I've seen thus far is around 4800. It was also mentioned in the Q&A of that same Livestream that melee dps should have a higher base dps than ranged due to positional mechanics, etc. (paraphrasing). Yeah, not happening.

 

My point here is two-fold: 1) Pure statistical numbers never translate to actual mechanics, and 2) Sents/Maras base dps DOES need to be buffed, if the above target dps goal is to hold true.

 

Sorcs/Sages and Mercs/Mandos are both getting 250-300DPS nerfs. Also, This is the top Sent/Mara parse:

http://swtor-parser.elasticbeanstalk.com/parser/view/8129/0

 

5254 DPS. Which means post 3.2, Sents/Maras will have the best Dummy DPS spec in the game again (need the scatter bombs nerf as well)

[ped_i]

I'm honestly tired of this negligence and carelessness from the devs. 17 pages in 1 day and not a single response from Eric or any of the devs. They *********** to care. Cartel Market makes money and that's what they are gonna put resources in. not pvp or pve. THEY DONT CARE. ****'em they are not gonna get my money anymore. I'm unsubbing. GG BW in 1 day with 1 ****** post you lost at least 5 paying customers.

[Chungadung]

hey sentinel and marauders. Let's all start afking in warzones/ranked so that bioware will buff us based on their "metrics"!

 

I apologize in advance eric, but this is actually one of the most out of touch posts in a long time. I'm going to politely rebut every single major point provided in this post, just because i've perhaps never seen a more misguided and plain out incorrect post by any developer team of any mmo or game.

 

Heck, i even resubbed just so i could reply to this.

 

 

 

This is perhaps the most interesting line. Any sentinel/mara currently playing the game knows that annihilation/watchman is a joke of a spec for pvp. The only reason you might observe that they're performing somewhat well is because, quite literally, only a few fairly good players use that spec - and they use it quite sporadically (a hail to the good ol' days of annihilation/watchman pretty much). I guarantee you if you pull up your metrics, the spec % of annihilation/watchman of all other specs is less than 0.5%, and within the sent/mara ranked specs most likely <5%. Given the dearth of ranked in this game, i'm not sure how you can draw any sort of conclusion from, presumably, a insanely small sample size. Or any statistical test in general.

 

 

 

These numbers don't provide much evidence of anything. Why not dig deeper into that win percentage. How many players of that win percentage are old players? How much of an exodus of "weaker" players has affected the sentinel/marauder class as a whole? Which part of that 82.6% win rate is one team continuously farming a far weaker team? I count myself as a fairly good marauder, and quite honestly, 9/10 i recognize the other sentinel/marauder on the opposite team simply because they've been playing for 2+ years. Most of the players who can't make sentinel/marauder work simply don't play it. I know three or four players (who have been ranked top 5 in various seasons) who used to have a marauder alt not even touch the class because of how useless the class has become. To put it bluntly, the win percentages are a result of skewed data. The effect of high quality marauder/sentinel players on the win percentage is immense. Here, class population loss vs. Retain of highly ranked players or a comparison of total number of hours played on marauder/sentinel vs. Pre-2.8 marauder/sentinel (you can normalize this to overall game population if you want) will be indicative of this, of which i am fairly certain. I have gone nights where i was the only marauder on both teams. And this is in warzones. You don't need statistical analysis to know something is wrong here (kind of interesting tidbit, as sentinel/marauder was formerly perhaps the third most popular class). For many players, there is little to no incentive to play the class, and even good ones believe that the class is atrocious relative to almost any other class/spec in the game.

 

 

 

This is another line which simply shows that you guys actually don't pvp on sentinel/marauder. I'm not saying this in a patronizing way -- it's the truth and you guys should own up to it.

 

Fury/concentration outperforms annihilation/watchman. Your use of "metrics" is interesting here because that's an unequivocal truth. The main reason why your data might show otherwise is that fury/concentration is a popular spec for beginning players. Contrary to your spec goals provided in the original post, fury/concentration has a easier time than carnage/combat simply because its a priority system. Most of the original marauders still stick with carnage simply because it has been the "to-go" pvp spec for the past two years. With so few marauders/sentinels left (and what remains mostly of more veteran players), the effect of this on win percentage is immense, meaning higher than actual win % for carnage/combat and annihilation/watchman than fury/concentration. You might have noticed some confusion on the pts when many marauders/sentinels were wondering why fury/concentration was chosen to be buffed instead of fixing carnage/combat or annihilation/watchman. Metrics can be wrong, as it is in this case (or in any case in your post, in general).

 

 

 

If we are performing at your desired dps markers than you might want to buff us a bit, because (i'm going to repeat this ad nauseum) good players are significantly pulling up your metrics. If i go on my sin i will guarantee you i'll hit 2.2k in any given game. Ditto for lightning. Ditto for virulence. Ditto for lethality (well, perhaps 2k). While on my mara i count any game above 1.8k a decent game. There is a clear dps discrepancy, and i imagine if you looked at marauder players who have multiple other classes and normalized that data, you would see marauders/sentinels under-performing.

 

 

 

These "strategies" take no time to learn. You have made no significant changes with the class (if anything, made each spec easier with 3.0). Adding a heal onto a defensive cooldown does not change our game-play whatsoever. Neither does immunity on force crush/exhaustion.

 

 

 

It is difficult not to read these final lines with a sense of disappointment. I'm sorry swtor combat team, but you have failed miserably. I have to say, good luck to whatever is left of the marauder/sentinel community, but i think i'm done with the class for a bit. Why spend so much effort for such little gain and no possible hope for a better result in the future?

 

The only thing this post accomplished was to crush the hopes of a few thousand players. For the sake of the future of swtor, i hope the rest of your "updates" aren't as misguided as this one.

 

 

this! Or something like that

Edited April 7, 2015 by Chungadung

[TACeMossie]

I'm honestly tired of this negligence and carelessness from the devs. 17 pages in 1 day and not a single response from Eric or any of the devs. They *********** to care. Cartel Market makes money and that's what they are gonna put resources in. not pvp or pve. THEY DONT CARE. ****'em they are not gonna get my money anymore. I'm unsubbing. GG BW in 1 day with 1 ****** post you lost at least 5 paying customers.

 

The devs typically only post from 2AM - 8AM my time. Its currently 2:40pm my time, which means you shouldn't expect any more dev posts until the servers are taken down for maintenance tonight. Of course, if it weren't maintenance day, it would be about 12 hours until the dev posts start. Still, don't expect a response for at least 12 hours.

Edited April 7, 2015 by TACeMossie

[ped_i]

The devs typically only post from 2AM - 8AM my time. Its currently 2:40pm my time, which means you shouldn't expect any more dev posts until the servers are taken down for maintenance tonight. Of course, if it weren't maintenance day, it would be about 12 hours until the dev posts start. Still, don't expect a response for at least 12 hours.

 

There was nothing at all through out the day, I'm not saying now. I'm saying since the OP went up till when all the tweets (i sent 3 personally) went out. there was nothing. but hey cartel market items break the response is within 2 hours.

[EenVooral]

Sorcs/Sages and Mercs/Mandos are both getting 250-300DPS nerfs. Also, This is the top Sent/Mara parse:

http://swtor-parser.elasticbeanstalk.com/parser/view/8129/0

 

5254 DPS. Which means post 3.2, Sents/Maras will have the best Dummy DPS spec in the game again (need the scatter bombs nerf as well)

 

Thanks for the info...guess it's been a few weeks since I looked! I stand corrected! But I still stand by my point regarding using internal statistics irregardless to how the mechanics actually work in-game.

[Atlanis]

I'm going to the Anaheim cantina, i'm possibly gonna have the marauder class rep with me (from when that joke was a thing) i will not be quiet about this malarky.

 

I already have a dozen Sent/Maras coming to Cologne with me......they will have to answer there. Maybe I can get a friend from a major german MMO - Site to come. They want negative publicity they can get it.

 

Oh and feedback:

 

1. Watchman beeing no fun to play

2. Mobility

3.Utility

4. Survivability

 

I might add Post #56 contains raw date showing Erics post contains fake/polished stattistics. So they lied to our faces.

Edited April 7, 2015 by Atlanis

[Gagelish]

I only very ocassionally play my Marauder and I'm terrible with it so this is coming from observing other players rather than personal experience, but, I do not agree with the conclusions reached by the Devs here.

 

I think the primary reason that Marauders and Sentinels appear to be performing well in ranked matches is that, in my experience, those players who choose to play their Mauraders/Sentinels in PvP are very, very good at their class. This is further accentuated by the fact that they're underperforming so much currently that only the very best players even bring their Marauders/Sentinels when they do ranked.

 

As I said previously, I rarely play my Marauder so I don't have a vested interest, but I don't think it's fair to basically require anyone playing a Marauder or Sentinel to have total and complete mastery of their class to achieve the same results that a moderately skilled Assassin/Shadow, Vanguard/Powertech, Sage/Sorceror can achieve with relatively little effort.

 

I'd be curious to see what your metrics say about the number of players consistently bringing their Marauders/Sentinels into PvP versus other classes. I imagine they would be very telling.

Edited April 7, 2015 by Gagelish

[ped_i]

I only very ocassionally play my Marauder and I'm terrible with it so this is coming from observing other players rather than personal experience, but, I do not agree with the conclusions reached by the Devs here.

 

I think the primary reason that Marauders and Sentinels appear to be performing well in ranked matches is that, in my experience, those players who choose to play their Mauraders/Sentinels in PvP are cry, very good at their class. This is further accentuated by the fact that they're underperforming so much currently that only the very best players even bring their Marauders/Sentinels when they do ranked.

 

As I said previously, I rarely play my Marauder so I don't have a vested interest, but I don't think it's fair to basically require anyone playing a Marauder or Sentinel to have total and complete mastery of their class to achieve the same results that a moderately skilled Assassin/Shadow, Vanguard/Powertech, Sage/Sorceror can achieve with relatively little effort.

 

I'd be curious to see what your metrics say about the number of players consistently bringing their Marauders/Sentinels into PvP versus other classes. I imagine they would be very telling.

 

Go back a few pages, there are raw date that people have posted you clearly see the numbers.