The Jedi Knight, and Sith Warrior classes need a huge buff.

[Darth_Victus]

Playing a Juggernaut tank I can tell you we do not need a HUGE buff.

 

Yes we do need some tweaking, mainly a slight increase in damage output and most of all, get rid of the delay that our parry and deflect animation cause.

[brandonspikes]

Playing a Juggernaut tank I can tell you we do not need a HUGE buff.

 

Yes we do need some tweaking, mainly a slight increase in damage output and most of all, get rid of the delay that our parry and deflect animation cause.

 

We need an aoe threat boost.

[Ashes_Arizona]

Playing a Juggernaut tank I can tell you we do not need a HUGE buff.

 

Yes we do need some tweaking, mainly a slight increase in damage output and most of all, get rid of the delay that our parry and deflect animation cause.

 

Some thought towards resistances to damage types other than melee(energy) and ranged(energy) would be good too.

 

The Jugg Immortal talent tree is hilariously bereft of any talents that increase resistances to Tech/Force/Kinetic/Element/Internal damage. Theres just 0 resistance to any of that built in. You can't even buy it or get it on gear. Anything throwing that kind of damage at you is 100% straight through no absorb, no defense, no shield chance and no armor rating even matters.

 

Overall the damage Immortals do is at the lowest end of the spectrum but the ideal here is to trade damage output for maximum surivability....which Immortals and Guardians alike do not have because they have zero resistance to anything that isn't a saber swing or a blaster bolt.

 

There is still a lot of work that the SW/JK classes need, it appears Zoeller got the Sentinel's/Marauders mostly worked out before release, but Juggs and Guards are still in the same boat they were in in beta. They're just adequate enough to be called a tank, but only just barely.

 

Far as the Ilum issues the OP refers to, I ran into the exact same thing. I soloed fine all the way to Ilum, no real bumps or hiccups, only to have a pair of strong class NPC's consistently be my doom in the exact same instance over and over and over til I just parked my Juggernaut on Ilum and rolled up a new character cause I just can't be bothered to deal with how ridiculously stupid that is.

 

And yes I could bring a friend and completely trivialize the encounter, but thats the issue in and of itself. I've spent around 50k in armor repairs trying to complete one stage of a instance on Ilum and been killed by the same two mobs for all 50,000 credits worth of repairs on several different days attempting various different companion/rotation and even spec tactics and its a no go. Bring in one friend and suddenly the "solo" content becomes trivial....and that in and of itself just puts the nail in the coffin for me with my tank Jugg. If something I continually die to alone, for several days becomes trivial just cause I brought a friend, it means theres something very wrong with that encounter and how its tuned for my class, or, potentially theres something very wrong with my class.

[ROMUBOTHUGORUGOR]

Far as I could see the Guard/Jugg needs to do more melee damage than the Vanguard/Powertech. It's kind of an insult that they can't do that much damage in melee... where they're supposed to dominate.

[IMABUNNEH]

- Crowd Control

- Some Sort of in-combat healing, maybe dump rage to heal, or lower our damage to heal, Just something.

- More offensive burst

- Higher overall Damage

- Extra passive Endurance / Armor

 

 

In Combat Healing - Medpacs, and you can spec into Unleash heal as well.

Offensive burst on a tank would be pretty stupid.

Extra Endurance + Armour? Juggernauts/Guardians are already the tankiest class, far more survivability than their other tank counterparts.

CC vs. normal mobs: (not sure the jedi skillnames) Force Choke, Ravage, Companion CC, Force Scream, Smash

 

Juggers have the best tank CDs ingame, and when their incombat procs are up, the highest defenses too. They have adequate CC vs. normal - silver mobs. What more could you want?

[Genocidalx]

In Combat Healing - Medpacs, and you can spec into Unleash heal as well.

Offensive burst on a tank would be pretty stupid.

Extra Endurance + Armour? Juggernauts/Guardians are already the tankiest class, far more survivability than their other tank counterparts.

CC vs. normal mobs: (not sure the jedi skillnames) Force Choke, Ravage, Companion CC, Force Scream, Smash

 

Juggers have the best tank CDs ingame, and when their incombat procs are up, the highest defenses too. They have adequate CC vs. normal - silver mobs. What more could you want?

 

This post is mostly outright incorrect and at best partially subjective. But once again, anyone who believe anything here should go do some reading on theorycraft.

 

Please delete post as spam.

Edited January 21, 2012 by Genocidalx

[Zones]

I'm floored that there still has been no buffs rolled out. What data are they waiting for? Are they even looking?

[Genocidalx]

I'm floored that there still has been no buffs rolled out. What data are they waiting for? Are they even looking?

 

Balance takes time. The game has been out a month, people are just starting to get settled in and understand the game. There's no reason to be floored. Now Bioware can begin compiling meaningful feedback to reach a practical solution.

 

Saying "I'm floored" isn't a helpful solution. Neither is complaining about issues with no sort of definite rhyme or reason.

 

I must say - as I alluded to in a previous post in this same thread - that I believe there's a severe disconnect between my idea of balance and purpose with that of Bioware's. I'd like to assume they have minds at work on balance with a more scientific understanding than that which I have. And my disappointments are the result of my expectations on a conceptual level. They're not met, so I'm not having fun, though I think I have some valid reasons why.

[Zones]

Balance takes time. The game has been out a month, people are just starting to get settled in and understand the game. There's no reason to be floored. Now Bioware can begin compiling meaningful feedback to reach a practical solution.

 

Saying "I'm floored" isn't a helpful solution. Neither is complaining about issues with no sort of definite rhyme or reason.

 

I must say - as I alluded to in a previous post in this same thread - that I believe there's a severe disconnect between my idea of balance and purpose with that of Bioware's. I'd like to assume they have minds at work on balance with a more scientific understanding than that which I have. And my disappointments are the result of my expectations on a conceptual level. They're not met, so I'm not having fun, though I think I have some valid reasons why.

 

Saying I'm floored is chiming in that there is a problem. I don't have any sort of super mega problem solver and even if I did I would be ignored. Developers do what they are going to do regardless of suggestions, all you can try to do is get their attention on a problem which I feel does exist.

[JefferyClark]

Well, I was under the impression upon doing some class reading pre-release (and I still think my logic is sound, even if my assumptions proved otherwise) and assumed the Juggernaut/Guardian would be the main tanks of either faction. I based this assumption on the fact that they were melee (the concept of a ranged tank still doesn't make ANY sense to me) and were denoted by the developers themselves as "tanks."

 

Seems pretty simple, no?

 

Well, if we flash forward, and theorycraft has proven this, we find that Juggs/Guardians are the worst tanks in the pure sense of the word.

 

I assumed 3 things for certain prior to playing a Jugg and reaching 50.

 

1. I would sacrifice DPS.

 

2. I would have the capacity to absorb and mitigate a high volume of damage.

 

3. I'd have the best tools to manipulate fights towards conditions that were beneficial to my groups/parties.

 

The only thing I've found to be accurate of my initial assumptions is that I have sacrificed DPS. A LOT of it. But you know what? I'm okay with that. That was assumed in my planning phase.

 

What I'm NOT okay with are the tools I have to manipulate fights, and the amount of damage I can absorb and mitigate, particularly in PvP, as every class was given internal damage to effectively erase my purpose (this is in full champion gear minus the belt only), and otherwise capped expertise.

 

My ability to take damage should be directly proportionate to the damage I sacrifice. This is not the case.

 

Guard is a good ability, but the honest truth of the matter is that I'm never absorbing or mitigating ANY damage, but instead I'm dispersing the damage between 2 targets, that's it. The same damage is going through regardless. I just slow the burst pace. This is not good.

 

Off topic: A common fight I will encounter is a stealther popping out of stealth, knocking me down, at which time I'll immediately spend Unleash because I don't feel like being dead before I stand up (internal damage and I'm a "tank" ).

 

I will force choke (free channeled) -> sundering assault -> Ravage (2 hits) -> force push -> saber throw + force leap (to build rage) -> sundering assault -> [perform a whatever rotation necessary based on how my opponent reacts, or how I think he'll react].

 

By the time he's ready to fight back, I'm lucky if I have 50% life left, and he simply proceeds to finish me off with 70-90% life remaining. I cannot mitigate his damage effectively, and there's certainly nothing I can do to stay alive. Invincible, sabre ward, endure pain and no uses of backhand, force choke or any combination/rotation of CC abilities can help me win the fight, I just die a slower death for for a few seconds.

 

The final point being that I'm not mitigating damage in a fair or acceptable way to compensate for my dps.

 

I should restate that, as a tank, my concerns lie more in damage mitigation and battle manipulation than the dps I do.

 

A couple of proposed fixes, in PvP guard, or at least the Juggernaut/Guardian guards, should have attached them a damage mitigation bonus on top of the damage dispersion. The threat reduction serves no purpose in PvP and so we lose half of the ability's goodness.

 

Reduce the number of internal damage abilities in the game, or give Juggs/Guardians a low-tier buff resistance for it in the defensive tree (perhaps 3 levels @ 10% each - the latter solution is more feasible).

 

Increase their natural threat generation, an inherent, passive boost to the Jugg/Guardian classes on all attacks that scales appropriately for weak attacks and strong attacks.

 

Revisit and recalculate your passive and special absorption calculations per armor type, rating, and generator.

 

Give them a reliable AoE threat ability, be it a pulse or an active ability with a decent radius. (Remember the Paladin from DAoC, they controlled aggro not through DPS, but taunt abilities and a small chanting Heal Over Time that healed everyone in the group for a small amount every 6 seconds, helping them passively maintain aggro on themselves among groups. This would be a fine and excellent idea for the Jugg/Guardian. I wouldn't even need to heal, but just pulse a taunt to a certain radius).

 

All in all, I don't want to do more damage, I just want to stand longer, stronger, and be able to direct fights into favorable situations.

 

 

 

 

Edit: Oh yeah, Unleash and, well, all CC breaking abilities need to have CC immunity attached to them after activation for some amount a time. 2, 4, 6 seconds... something. Otherwise they're only good for saving you a second or two after your resolve bar is full, and the ability goes to waste the majority of the time.

 

my thoughts exactly...

 

We tested this on Tatooine: As it is now, a Guardian or Juggernaut with a healer (just healing him, doing no damage to the enemy at all) will fall to a single opponent of any other class. The test we did was a full tank spec Guardian with a Sage healer with typical spec and gear (again, healing only - and it was one of the better pvp healers on our server) vs a Sith Sorc. The Sorc was able to drop the Guardian in under 3 minutes, with the healer using every heal he had... The Sorc's attacks were just going right through the Guardian's armor and 30 seconds into the fight, it was a losing battle... All the heals did was prolong the fight, but with the I Win Button shield the Sorc gets, the Guardian just couldn't dent the guy. Now for the real kicker.... The guardian was level 50. The Sorc, 45. Could it be that our Guardian was not so great? Perhaps... however, given what we've seen on the forums, I think it is more likely that the damage mitigation of the class isn't making up for its lack of DPS.

Edited January 21, 2012 by JefferyClark

[GarfieldJL]

I think we need a new passive ability, not sure about something to deal with sages and sorcerors cause I want the class balanced not overpowered.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=217165

 

That is where I posted my proposed buff, which might help somewhat.

[Pattotwo]

All I have to say is if you think Juggs are bad Sentinels are so much worse **** damage and die all the time

[TexasJediKnight]

That doesn't solve the biggest issue of being knocked back after the leap and CC'd. being able to push and refresh leap does fix that.

No beacuse after u get knocked off, after u just charged then u force push them away that makes sense so know i can run after them YAY! COME AT ME BRO

[KindBudhArsh]

no u guys dont... the force leap range that it is, is enough... nerf that ish

 

[oMGitsree]

While it is definitely harder solo as Maurader, it isn't impossible. The only way to do Warrior is to use everything in your arsenal. Its definitely a different feeling from ranged versus Melee particularly against mobs that make close combat practically impossible.

 

I don't feel the melee class is unplayable. I do believe they should take a harder look at Warrior and try to balance it out though for the average player.

[solnar_xan]

I didn't try playing a SW yet, but my JK (Sentinel) became pretty much unplayable solo in PVE around level 25.

 

I'm playing through now, on a JKS, after playing a sorc to 42 and wanting to change things up. My sorc is a GOD compared to this JK; I out level the content by 4-5 levels and if I don't pull some mobs with my companion I will die.

 

My Bounty hunter is god like compared to the JK.

 

I died at level 24 on Taris because I chain pulled 2 packs by mistake. This is unacceptable. Jedi should feel powerful and awe inspiring the way a bounty hunter does. My sage would just laugh -> bubble, hot, big heal, laugh again channel AoE, laugh

 

My sage/sorc may not feel exactly awe inspiring but the only trouble I had ever was when I was forced to use the healer companion on my sorc

 

I honestly at this point blame it on melee, except from what little time I spent on my assassin the assassin, while having some of these problems doesn't seem to suffer as badly...

 

Except for smuggler/agent I've played everything to at least level 25 and the Knight/Warrior is EXTREMELY squishy... all I can suggest is take biochem and make yourself some great healing items to make things at least a little easier for the leveling.

 

I do tink it is funny though as in WoW warriors where much more "sturdy" than preist/mages/warlocks a.k.a. sorcs... wait what is that skill VICTORY RUSH where is my gosh darn VICTORY RUSH

Edited January 25, 2012 by solnar_xan

[GarfieldJL]

I posted a suggested improvement here

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=217165

 

Basically it makes it so the blaster deflection animation actually does something.

[SarimRune]

I know a lot of people keep saying that it's ltp or that it's just the ability delay, but I can't agree with them.

 

I will finish the Knight (Sentinel) class through PVE. I'm not going to give up.

 

But I've never once, except at the beginning, felt like a powerful Jedi.

 

This class does not suck. It's fun to play and the story is the best.

 

But when I play my Sentinel, I have zero confidence that I can win fights. I play a BH and fight an Elite of an equal level, I know I'm going to win. With the Sentinel...I just never know. I'm one bad rotation from faceplanting.

 

If there are two normals and one strong in a group, if I don't defeat both normals before working on the strong, I'm dead. Why? Because my damage is not high enough to destroy the strong in a swift enough time and the damage I take from the two normal in the meantime can often result in me dying.

 

I'm not the best player but I'm not the worst. It shouldn't be so critical that I defeat all enemies in an exact order and use the same rotation of powers and so forth.

 

Anyway, I think we're beating a dead horse. The Sentinel could use a little love.

[Tfranco]

I agree completely with the OP. Im a lvl 50 juggernaught Vengance dps spec and i have to say i hate it so far. I will admit i am probably doing somthing wrong but i didnt get my first crit over 2k until 48 and that was in pvp! Meanwhile a lvl 15 sniper can come chain 2-3k crit me 4 times in a row? somthing is wrong.

Im not say nerf other classes, i think all the classes except Jugg/Guard are fine. Juggs need somthing to help SOMTHING.

Now i heard this somwhere and thought it was a good idea: Make ravage somthing you can move and use. For vengance spec at least its a core ability, hell we have a 40ish% chance to reset CD with impale. But in pvp no one is dumb enough to stand there while we channel it, and in FPs half the fights involve kiting/moving so we never get to use it. Being able to move and channel it would make somthings alot easier. Its just an idea but i think it is a good start along with maybe a dmg boost of some kind with it.

Love this game but hate playing my 50 there is an issue there...

 

and i repeat dont nerf other classes, as i said they seem fine in fact i love their damage output and survivability.

[ShoteR]

i created my alt , a BH powertech , and since lvl 11 to 32 i'm owning on pvp and pve like i never did in my jugg , i can kill a whole pack of mobs easily , i kill players (especially juggs) 20 lvls above mine .

 

but the thing is , i really like my sith jugg , but right now my character is ridiculous weaker than the other classes , PLEASE do something to make it VIABLE to play , i can't even kill a gold mob with a silver mob wiithout using ALL my cds with a healing companion , i've seen the other classes killing it easily

 

i'm not asking to one shot everyone ( like operatives) with my jugg, i'm just asking to make it viable to play , i'm 100% positive we are the weakest class in the game , and there is a HUGE difference of power betwen us and the other classes , i've seen it myself and i see it everytime i see a jugg or even a marauder on warzones.

[AetherMcLoud]

My Trooper Commando breezed through every thing bar heroics. Still ploughing through Tatooine with him.

 

My Jedi Gauardian is struggling through Taris... Some thing not right here.

 

One is a healer, one is a tank. Of course the healer has it easier when it comes to hard quests, he can heal FFS.

[Errthu]

Powertech shieldtech is very fun to play, it's like Immortal survivability and Rage/Focus damage.

[Batslav]

warriors are not bad players are

[finc_loki]

I came to SWTOR to play a Star Wars game, that to me is Jedi or Sith.

 

They made the iconic powerful force classes weak as hell, it's a joke, a complete contradiction to actual Star Wars.

 

All we are asking for is to be able to output same damage.

Seriously what the hell is wrong with Bioware, did they listen to much to people that said "what's the point in playing anything but Jedi/sith cause we all know they are more powerful in SW fiction that anything else".

So they made the lowly trooper a powerhouse in comparison, the trooper that is cannon fodder in REAL SW lore.

 

I love the story and the game, but I don't want to pay a Sub-fee for a class that hits like a wet-noodle and feel weaker than anything else when it's suppose to be the be all end all class.

I know we can't have an OP class compared to others but for crying out loud, why can't the Jedi/Sith be the class that does as much damage as the BH, that can faceroll through PVE?

 

All the time in the Sith Warrior story it's about how bad-butt you are and poweful, every other comment it " I will destroy them", then you actually just go out in the world and you have a problem defeating a mob of trash at later levels, it's so pathetic and anti-climactic.

 

It makes your story into "all talk", as pathetic loser.

 

They really need to separate damage output between PVP and PVE, in PVE we should be able to don tremendous damage and yes FACEROLL lower end mobs, and only have a challenge with elite and champion and bosses.

All this BS about "Heroic", more like the wimp feel.

 

A class should progress to be STRONGER, NOT do WORSE as you go along.

It's called progress and not Regress for a reason.

[Meatnose]

Sentinels and Jedi Knights in general are severely underpowered. It's not an issue of skill. Its a know fact that we are the only class that can't finish their class quest line without bringing in outside help. Also, in PvP we have to rely on things like Biochem just to be on the same level as other classes.

 

Jedi Knights are the premier melee class and yet we are out damaged by the melee of a class that uses guns. This is obviously an issue.

 

Please help.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Meatnose