The Jedi Knight, and Sith Warrior classes need a huge buff.

[Surter]

Hi guys,

 

There are many different subjects discussed in this thread and I would like to take the opportunity to give you some information on the topics at hand.

 

First off, we currently have no indication that any class needs a huge buff. Class balance is defined by the interaction between classes and changes we make to one class will, inevitably, move the balance towards or from other classes. Our data and testing currently indicates that the Juggernaut and Guardian AC could use some buffing up in two areas where we see them underperforming against our expectations.

 

Here are some of the things we're planning to roll out in the short term specifically regarding Sith Warriors and Jedi Knights :

 

• Mobility/Anti Kiting (PvP) – We agree with the sentiment voiced by the community that some Guardians and Juggernauts have to work harder than other classes to stay within effective combat range, putting them at a disadvantage. We intend to address this in an upcoming patch where, as a first step, Force Push will clear the cooldown of Force Leap, granting for more reliable in combat pursuit capabilities to the Advanced Class. Further changes will be made if necessary.
   
  
• DPS spec survivability (PvP and PvE) – The DPS specs on Guardian and Juggernaut are performing to our expectations when it comes to the ability to create damage, especially of the burst variety. However their survivability is lagging behind our expectations, especially in the later game, and we are going to start addressing that particular issue in an upcoming patch.

Our attention to the class obviously won't stop here. Balancing MMOs is a never ending endeavor and we're in for the long haul. For example, we are certainly aware that the Marauder and Sentinel are very gameplay intensive classes with some of the most complex rotations in the game. While we are currently looking at quality of life and usability improvements to increase the class' playability without compromising the unique aspects of the class, we don't have anything specific to announce just yet. We do however anticipate that some of the combat responsiveness improvements (AKA 'ability delay' - more on that here) being worked on by our engineering team will specifically aid both Marauder and Sentinel.

 

In regards to PvE balance, any place in the game where our data shows significant issues with the balance tuning for one or more classes or specs are of course also being looked at.

 

For example, Jedi Knights will be pleased to hear that we are working on tuning the final mission in their class chain to provide a better, more fun and more reliably solvable challenge (see a post from another member of my team here). Currently a large percentage of players bring a friend to solve this mission, which, while social and often more fun, is not in line with our stated goal of allowing players to progress solo through their class arc if they desire to do so. We're also looking at some companions with a critical eye to improve their viability for certain role/companion combinations.

 

I would also like to give you some general understanding about approach to class balancing and how you can aid us with your feedback:

 

• Now that we're out of the first few weeks of launch madness, you will see class and combat balance issues addressed with increased frequency. Larger scale gameplay changes and features are more likely to coincide with major content releases, but smaller scale changes and improvements can be expected to become part of our regular update schedule.
   
  
• Statements that we hate a specific class or faction, or that we intentionally underbalance certain classes to make it less popular are conspiracy theory territory. We have nothing to gain from such an approach – we want players to pick the class and faction they want to play and have confidence that they are able to perform their chosen role in the game. Anything that comes in the way of that goal is considered a balance issue for us.
   
  
• We make our balancing decisions based on a combination of internal and external testing and metrics. We don't make decisions based on who is the loudest on the forums. Community feedback is valuable in bringing issues to our attention and even to highlight possible solutions, which means that well written, constructive posts are the most effective way to communicate your wishes and feedback to us, rather than petitions and calls to nerf specific classes.
   
  
• Please understand that balance issues during the leveling process are different than issues at level 50 and are handled in different ways. If you feel your class has issues during your journey to 50, especially communicate the level range and area of the game where you are experiencing issues to aid our investigations. Player versus Player situations in during the leveling process are not always balanced at every level (a mathematical impossibility), but we are always willing to investigate.
   
  
• Just because we haven't mentioned the specific issue close to your heart in a post (such as the one above) doesn't mean we are unaware of it or that we don't want to address it. It would be impractical for us to comment on all investigations currently in the pipeline. That said, we definitely want to take a more open approach in regards to upcoming class changes.

 

Finally, I'd like to acknowledge, again, that we do understand that there is a desire for players to get more detailed information what happens to their character in combat. We agree with those requests and are working on various ways to, optionally, get more detailed data on your combat performance.

 

Thanks for your feedback!

 

-- Georg

 

 

No address of the difficulty sentinels have staying in melee range, no address of the unchargeable Soa issue, no discussion of the fact that we are the only class without either a knockback or a pull. Just "your rotation is complex, we're looking into that."

 

Thanks, but I as much as I want my class simplified, I care much more about having it work. Give us a pull, or even a ranged root. That alone would solve many sentinel issues.

[Stalker]

Reading the buff requests from mara/sents above.... please... leave the class complex buff if you see that we need it (which i don't think we do). The complexity is why I play it... Overall the lack of hard cc is overcome by the straight damage numbers watchman/annihilation can put out over a period of 5 seconds leaving the target running, slowed, and bleeding hard.

 

and...

 

 

What about the Marauders u naabs..

They suck so hard my grandma could do better.

 

Im thinking of rerolling allready and THATS just wrong this early in the game..

 

And u might have noticed that because of your "Lack of faith"

This game will soon be a "only Bountyhunter/Agent" game cause the rest of classes cant match up...

 

Get to work u lasy bastards, the X-mas is over!

Fix this class probs or i think many ppl will go back to wow...

 

please go back. we don't want you here.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Stalker

[pangwl]

Force Push for Jedi Sentinel please?

JS really needs one more crowd control ability.

[GoldPush]

You know what would do WONDERS for sentinel.

 

If you didn't fight a healer and saw "healingspell being cast", SPAM KICK... no idea if it actually interrupted or not but!!!!! 1 sec later "HEALCAST", "HEALCAST", "HEALCAST"...

 

So tired of it, it's absolutely dumbfound that a healer can continue to heal 24-7 and only way you can kill him is if you're DEAD lucky on critstreaks WHILST using leap+stasis+kick to interrupt.

[adww]

I am coming from a pvp viewpoint here and I realize I am probably going to be in the minority, but I really don’t have any major complaints playing my juggernaut. I am level 50 with a good portion of champion gear and I feel fine. I am using a hybrid immortal / vengeance spec that really seems to do well.

 

I definitely have issues with the class, but nothing major. Here are some of the things I’ve thought of.

 

Unstoppable triggering when you charge and not when you land.

 

Losing all of your rage when switching stances with no way of saving any of it.

 

Being able to turn off a stance completely. Sometimes when I am spamming a stance switch (ball carrying for example) I will switch to that stance and then turn it off accidentally. It should not allow you to turn off a stance(just switch between them), because there is no reason to not be in one.

 

I would like to see a sort of poor man’s guard type talent in the dps trees. Something that lets you put a a ~25% guard on someone while in one of the other two stances.

 

Something I know that is being looked at and is more in the bug category, but abilities not triggering at all. Specifically charge, viscous throw, and ravage. I spam the crap out of these abilities (bound to mousewheel) and they fail to activate more than 50% of time. My global cooldown will trigger but no ability will go off.

[anhtice]

i know alot of people say this but

 

i always top kills, i feel like i can kill just about anyone (sides 2 healers on eachother etc).

 

I have full champ gear.

 

Its honestly a gear thing for Juggernauts. and Vengeance, because rage stinks.

[Gvaz]

As for sentinels, I see a class that does so-so dps with absolutely no utility.

 

Why would anyone play a melee class without proper control abilities, that does poor damage for being a pure dps? Pure dps should have high dps to make up for that fact, but low dps plus barely any utilities means I'll never play that.

[JustinxDuff]

This lead refresh is going to make Huttball so lame.

 

Leap -> push -> Leap -> score

[AidenPryde]

Okay. Here's the reason why Jugg tanks suck at DPS.

 

We only have 2 abilities that are not considered weapon damage. These are Smash and Force Scream.

 

Both bypass armor and shields (which is why rage specced Juggs can hit people for 4-8k with Smash).

 

All our other abilities; lightsaber throw, sundering assault, etc are all weapon damage.

 

This means that the above abilities are mitigated by armor and by the shield if it procs.

 

Because Immortal does not have any damage bonuses to any of those force attacks our DPS sucks.

 

I suggest changing Crushing Blow (our top tier damage ability) to Internal or Elemetal damage.

 

Change the tooltip to something like "charges your saber with the force" like the Shatter ability.

 

As it stands now there is no point in being a tank in PvP as our mitigation abilities are on a 3 minute CD. In PvP this means that I LS throw (hit for 600-800 on a geared 50), force leap (400-600 on a geared 50), etc etc. I'm lucky to get a 1k crit. But to survive the other player I have to use ALL three of my 3 minute CDs and even then I probably die.

 

I last longer with those CDs but I can't hurt anyone around me. So as soon as they are up I am as good as dead.

 

On a side note. Give Marauders a force Push and add a Force Pull to the Jugg. The Marauder (properly specced) already has enough survivability in PvP and a movement speed buff after using Obliterate.

[Zidstar]

I advocate a force pull.

[xxWargodxx]

Force Push to refresh Leap is your answer to the ungodly amount of CC in PvP that keeps melee from staying in range?

 

You know, crowd control in PvP has been a problem in MMO's since at least the stunlock days of early release DAOC. Solutions to these kinds of problems have already been sovled for you in other games, the fact that your dev team is apparently unaware of them is mind boggeling.

 

Let me help you out here and introduce a couple of tried and true concepts to your dev team: diminishing returns and temporary CC immunity after using a CC breaker.

 

Simple and elegant concepts to keep me from spending an entire PvP match knocked back, stunned, choked, slowed, grappled, pushed, mezzed, ad nauseum, ad infinitum.

 

I know, it seems a crazy concept, but I'd actually like to spend the majority of my time in a PvP match with my toon under my control rather than under someone elses.

[Wraeththu]

Hi guys,

First off, we currently have no indication that any class needs a huge buff. Class balance is defined by the interaction between classes and changes we make to one class will, inevitably, move the balance towards or from other classes.

 

I'm not seeing it.

 

Assasssin/Shadow vs Juggernaut/Guardian. At 50. Specced defense.

 

The Assassin/Shadow has

 

1. Higher AC
   
2. Higher Internal/Elemental resistances
   
3. Higher ability-usage energy generation
   
4. As a result of the previous, higher DPS
   
5. Which results in Higher Threat
   
6. CROWD CONTROL
   
7. Force Pull
   
8. Stealth
   

 

How exactly is that balanced? It's not class envy, it's just the heavy force tanks have NOTHING to offer, unless there's a large collection of encounters where you can force-push people into chasms, I'm missing what's compelling about the heavy force tanks.

 

This isn't envy for me, as I have both. It's just I'm baffled at what purpose the juggernaut serves outside of PvP. Does it work? Yes, it just does everything WORSE than the light force tank.

Edited January 11, 2012 by Wraeththu

[khsolo]

Hi guys,

 

There are many different subjects discussed in this thread and I would like to take the opportunity to give you some information on the topics at hand.

 

First off, we currently have no indication that any class needs a huge buff. Class balance is defined by the interaction between classes and changes we make to one class will, inevitably, move the balance towards or from other classes. Our data and testing currently indicates that the Juggernaut and Guardian AC could use some buffing up in two areas where we see them underperforming against our expectations.

 

Here are some of the things we're planning to roll out in the short term specifically regarding Sith Warriors and Jedi Knights :

 

• Mobility/Anti Kiting (PvP) – We agree with the sentiment voiced by the community that some Guardians and Juggernauts have to work harder than other classes to stay within effective combat range, putting them at a disadvantage. We intend to address this in an upcoming patch where, as a first step, Force Push will clear the cooldown of Force Leap, granting for more reliable in combat pursuit capabilities to the Advanced Class. Further changes will be made if necessary.
   
  
• DPS spec survivability (PvP and PvE) – The DPS specs on Guardian and Juggernaut are performing to our expectations when it comes to the ability to create damage, especially of the burst variety. However their survivability is lagging behind our expectations, especially in the later game, and we are going to start addressing that particular issue in an upcoming patch.

Our attention to the class obviously won't stop here. Balancing MMOs is a never ending endeavor and we're in for the long haul. For example, we are certainly aware that the Marauder and Sentinel are very gameplay intensive classes with some of the most complex rotations in the game. While we are currently looking at quality of life and usability improvements to increase the class' playability without compromising the unique aspects of the class, we don't have anything specific to announce just yet. We do however anticipate that some of the combat responsiveness improvements (AKA 'ability delay' - more on that here) being worked on by our engineering team will specifically aid both Marauder and Sentinel.

 

In regards to PvE balance, any place in the game where our data shows significant issues with the balance tuning for one or more classes or specs are of course also being looked at.

 

For example, Jedi Knights will be pleased to hear that we are working on tuning the final mission in their class chain to provide a better, more fun and more reliably solvable challenge (see a post from another member of my team here). Currently a large percentage of players bring a friend to solve this mission, which, while social and often more fun, is not in line with our stated goal of allowing players to progress solo through their class arc if they desire to do so. We're also looking at some companions with a critical eye to improve their viability for certain role/companion combinations.

 

I would also like to give you some general understanding about approach to class balancing and how you can aid us with your feedback:

 

• Now that we're out of the first few weeks of launch madness, you will see class and combat balance issues addressed with increased frequency. Larger scale gameplay changes and features are more likely to coincide with major content releases, but smaller scale changes and improvements can be expected to become part of our regular update schedule.
   
  
• Statements that we hate a specific class or faction, or that we intentionally underbalance certain classes to make it less popular are conspiracy theory territory. We have nothing to gain from such an approach – we want players to pick the class and faction they want to play and have confidence that they are able to perform their chosen role in the game. Anything that comes in the way of that goal is considered a balance issue for us.
   
  
• We make our balancing decisions based on a combination of internal and external testing and metrics. We don't make decisions based on who is the loudest on the forums. Community feedback is valuable in bringing issues to our attention and even to highlight possible solutions, which means that well written, constructive posts are the most effective way to communicate your wishes and feedback to us, rather than petitions and calls to nerf specific classes.
   
  
• Please understand that balance issues during the leveling process are different than issues at level 50 and are handled in different ways. If you feel your class has issues during your journey to 50, especially communicate the level range and area of the game where you are experiencing issues to aid our investigations. Player versus Player situations in during the leveling process are not always balanced at every level (a mathematical impossibility), but we are always willing to investigate.
   
  
• Just because we haven't mentioned the specific issue close to your heart in a post (such as the one above) doesn't mean we are unaware of it or that we don't want to address it. It would be impractical for us to comment on all investigations currently in the pipeline. That said, we definitely want to take a more open approach in regards to upcoming class changes.

 

Finally, I'd like to acknowledge, again, that we do understand that there is a desire for players to get more detailed information what happens to their character in combat. We agree with those requests and are working on various ways to, optionally, get more detailed data on your combat performance.

 

Thanks for your feedback!

 

-- Georg

 

Thanks for you input but unfortunatelly it only adresses the Jedi Knight it doesnt talk about Sentinels and Sentinels dont have Force Push so we wont be able to Force Leap back into the melee range

 

Any changes in the pipeline for the Sentinels? ty in advance

[Retik]

They don't care about the other side of the warrior class, only making juggs even MORE OP in huttball giving them a third leap. I'm guessing whoever is making these design decisions is the same person who designed the GTN....

[Samous]

I am an Imperial Agent Sniper (lethality spec). I will say this after PVP'ing to just about battlemaster.

 

Juggernauts are laughable in PVP and only worthwhile because of their leaps. They do no damage. Never am I threatened when a Juggernaut or Jedi Knight is trying to kill me. They have one ability that can crit for a high amount and thats it.

 

Meanwhile, Operative's and Scoundrals are four hitting people in full champion gear, while being able to heal, while being able to use dots to keep people from objectives, while being able to stealth in and out of combat.

Laughable...My jugg dominates pvp and I am not Rage specd.

 

When gear properly and played with understanding I find no class can oppose me in 1v1. As it stands with a healer no group can kill me. I average 100-150k sure its not race roll class territory, but I can do more than any op/scoundral can barring 200k.

If you only think we have leap and a smash every now and then you have not faced a jugg with any understanding of the class yet

Edited January 11, 2012 by Samous

[Noth]

Thanks for you input but unfortunatelly it only adresses the Jedi Knight it doesnt talk about Sentinels and Sentinels dont have Force Push so we wont be able to Force Leap back into the melee range

 

Any changes in the pipeline for the Sentinels? ty in advance

 

You as a sentinel can have a lower cooldown on leap with no minimum range. Passive runspeed increase. Ranged root, a runspeed increase. A cloak with speed boost. You already have a much easier time closing and staying on the target.

[GoldPush]

Most OP thing in hutball is trololol lets get ball and SPRINT INTO GOAL AND BE IMMUNE TO STASIS...

[K_osss]

Georg,

Thanks for the response to this thread and I appreciate the detail of your post as well as showing us how the development process works! I play a Sentinel and love the heck out of the "complex rotation". I love it because it's not a 1 button wonder, it's very versatile, and extremely fun to play. Complex - yes, but that's ok. My plea is not to dumb it down too much! I like having to think what's the best ability for me to use in this situation, and with so many abilities I always feel like i'm learning and improving my decision making. Love it, good job!

[Staavis_SC]

I'm going to sign this.

 

I would agree that something doesn't feel right with Jedi Knights.

 

Guardians feel way too squishy.

 

Sentinels feel way too impotent as a DPS dealer.

 

Something needs to change.

[PatDay]

I didn't read the whole thread (sorry), but I want to put my vote in - Yes, JK guardians are under powered. I play in a dedicated four player group most of the time (meaning we've done all the quests together from about level 10 and on). We have one of each class in the group and I've seen how the group dynamic works first hand.

 

I can personally say the JKG is dead weight in the group 95% of the time. I'm only useful when doing heroics (which isn't necessarily a bad thing), but I can't help thinking how much better the group might be if I played a vanguard instead. The commando trooper in the group is our healer and he has nearly as good survivability as a JKG but has solid, ranged damage and healing, too. This is balanced?

 

The other people in the group actually have gotten to the point where they joke about how crappy the JKG is. We'll be fighting some normal enemies for example and the group spreads out for fast killing. I'll be still on my first pack of mobs and the rest of the group will come back (after slaughtering the rest of the room) to help me. It's sad

 

I don't want to see any other classes nerfed, but I think that the JK needs a buff. Specifically, I feel like the damage needs a buff for two reasons - 1) JKs are primarily a melee class and melee damage is inherently less efficient than ranged damage and 2) the JK mechanic requires building up Focus and is harder to use than any of the other classes mechanics.

[anhtice]

imho though, invincible should not be talented.

 

the name Juggernaut implies an unstoppable force but i feel pretty stoppable.

Are all resolve bars rates of all classes standardized for every all class or each class?

i seriously get cced like 4x back to back. Finally when im out, I destroy the target though

Edited January 11, 2012 by anhtice

[DarkwingGT]

First off, we currently have no indication that any class needs a huge buff. Class balance is defined by the interaction between classes and changes we make to one class will, inevitably, move the balance towards or from other classes. Our data and testing currently indicates that the Juggernaut and Guardian AC could use some buffing up in two areas where we see them underperforming against our expectations.

 

Interesting. So for example, our ability to solo is therefore not considered part of class balance because it's not an interaction between classes? So it's ok that Guardians have much lower damage output than the other tanks because it's not "interaction between classes"? In full tank gear I watch my Vanguard guild mate stomp packs consisting of nothing but Strong/Elites (level 50). In full DPS gear I can get maybe one Strong down by the time he's killed two Strongs and one Elite....

 

Mobility/Anti Kiting (PvP) – We agree with the sentiment voiced by the community that some Guardians and Juggernauts have to work harder than other classes to stay within effective combat range, putting them at a disadvantage. We intend to address this in an upcoming patch where, as a first step, Force Push will clear the cooldown of Force Leap, granting for more reliable in combat pursuit capabilities to the Advanced Class.

 

This is completely not the way to go about this. Since we're talking about PVP specifically, exactly how can I refresh Force Leap with my Force Push when I've been knocked out of Force Push range? Or since everyone has what feels like 30 different roots, I get to Force Push to refresh Force Leap....and just sit there anyway since I'm rooted and you can't Force Leap. And since the roots last 6 seconds (which is an eternity in PVP)...

 

Here's an idea instead, how about letting Resolve block snares/roots for Knights/Warriors?

 

DPS spec survivability (PvP and PvE) – The DPS specs on Guardian and Juggernaut are performing to our expectations when it comes to the ability to create damage, especially of the burst variety. However their survivability is lagging behind our expectations, especially in the later game, and we are going to start addressing that particular issue in an upcoming patch.

 

I can't comment on Sentinel damage so I won't. Guardian damage though, wow. Or maybe my perspective is off. Maybe Guardian damage is where it's supposed to be but I'm just completely baffled by the damage the other tank ACs can do and they're just completely skewing things. Either way, there's a large disparity there.

 

Are you aware of what everyone is saying about how shields aren't working in PVP properly? How they're only working against things labeled as "weapon damage"? Could this be a factor?

 

For example, we are certainly aware that the Marauder and Sentinel are very gameplay intensive classes with some of the most complex rotations in the game.

 

How about the numerous concerns raised on redundant Guardian abilities, such as Opportune Strike vs Pommel Strike? What about Sundering Strike vs Strike?

 

And finally, I know Guardians and I imagine Sentinels and all our Empire counterparts would LOVE to hear about the status of bug fixes. Here's a very short list off the top of my head:

 

Riposte sometimes won't work during a GCD.

Riposte sometimes triggers the GCD.

Blade Storm animation bugs and moving during this causes the ability to not fire.

Master Strike sometimes doesn't trigger it's CD (As a full Defense specced Guardian I've had cases where I could Master Strike 3 times in a row (i.e. no Zen Strike talent))

Force Sweep sometimes does it's damage before the animation, sometimes after.

Courage talent stacks in Shii-cho as well as Soresu.

Courage talent doesn't work properly, with 2 stacks and 2 focus I should be able to Blade Storm, instead it tells me not enough Focus. With 3 stacks and 1 Focus however, it works properly. Various other combinations of Focus + Courage stacks that SHOULD allow you to use an ability...doesn't.

Guardian Leap on a moving target is a pure gamble on where you'll land.

Force Push often pushes people in a 90 or 180 degree from my actual positioning. I've had Force Push toss people through me to put them BEHIND me.

 

That's not even a comprehensive list, that's just a quick 5 min off the top of my head list. Give me a half hour and I could fill an entire page worth of bugs.

 

And that's not even going over how wonked out our talent trees are. Unremitting is almost a mandatory talent yet requires 11 points in Vigilance to get. The sheer number of mobs in PVE that stun/kb/CC you the moment you leap them is incredulous. Then let's not even talk about how Defense is not even defense orientated past tier 5 and even tier 5 is questionable.

 

All in all, if you think just making Force Leap refresh on Force Push is our issue...I'm scared, I'm really really scared.

[gibmachine]

Another thing just came to my mind after painfully downing a sorc 1v1.

 

Lockout on interrupt. I mash my kick button like there is no tomorrow and it doesn't matter if it actually does work because he can start healing himself right away.

 

So yeah, more visible diminishing returns after cc and ~3 sec lockout after successfull kick wouldn't hurt.

[Maleix]

You as a sentinel can have a lower cooldown on leap with no minimum range. Passive runspeed increase. Ranged root, a runspeed increase. A cloak with speed boost. You already have a much easier time closing and staying on the target.

 

You have no clue about the class you are describing. What you are describing are several different individual specs and abilities that cannot be had with the same spec. Currently the best PvP spec is Focus which is the exact same tree that guardians get and good pvp guardians also use which has the same cooldown on leap.

 

Sentinels get no range root, we get a range snare, we do not get a cloak with runspeed boost. No melee class currently has it easy staying on a target due to other classes having an endless amount of CC and there not being any diminishing returns DESPITE what the resolve system is intended.

[Darth_Victus]

Man I was hoping you guys would increase the Threat percentage on Soresu form to 100% instead of 50%. Anybody else feel like 50% is a little low?

 

I feel that 50% is too low as well. Seeing as most tanking companions I have seen have 100% threat increase and all the little extras as well.