HM Ravagers & Temple progression thread

[justinplainview]

After killing Cora on 8 man, and trying to progress it on 16, I think its safe to state that the scaling on the different abilities of Ruugar between 8 and 16 is questionable. If you on 8 man deal with the mechanics correctly and have the dps for it, you will kill it, and it should be like that in 16 man aswell. But when Bioware scales singletarget abilities to become a 1shot (unless all members are 100% topped off and above 52k max health), the frustration gets real. An example would be the singletarget leap that he does occasionally. I might be wrong, but we used the same tactics in 8 man as 16 man, and was successful. If someone asks Bioware about this I am sure they will answer that its working like intended, like everything else. Does anyone in Zorz have any opinions about this matter?

 

TL; DR: Is the Coratanni fight scaled right between 8 man and 16 man?

 

Zorz almost 2 shot Coratanni 16 man HM, and killed it within around an hour or so of pulling it. IIRC, the only part of the fight where tuning was brought into question was damage done by the AOE Knockback that Ruugar does at times. Other than that, Coratanni was not really talked about as a boss that's harder. Now, as for whether or not it's scaled correctly? IDK. There are a few things on Coratanni that feel off in both 8 and 16 (how timing of Ruugar's rotation can be delayed or accelerated by things that don't seem to be % based for instance)

 

Overall, the only boss that people in Zorz definitely thinks is harder in 16(some may have other views but as a general rule) is Blaster Master, which while being easier on DPS from a straight #s standpoint, the coordination check of that many people in the same space requires more than 8 man. Even when we consider Revan 16 man HM, Shiv stacks deal LESS damage on 16 man than 8 man somehow. Heaves hit for the same and only hit 8 people in the raid. With double the healers and somewhere along the line of 35% less damage on shiv, and the same damage on heave but only to 50% of the raid instead of 100% of the raid with twice as many healers, it ends up being, in all honesty, a more loosely tuned fight.

Edited February 17, 2015 by justinplainview

[Mazanator]

I would agree with Dulfy. We are in a rough patch at the moment with raiding (bad timing more than anything) hence our aids progression. If you want tio have decent progress in these fights I think at least 4-6 nights a week. That being said I learned Revan in 10 Pulls Kappa

[ybdron]

Zorz almost 2 shot Coratanni 16 man HM, and killed it within around an hour or so of pulling it. IIRC, the only part of the fight where tuning was brought into question was damage done by the AOE Knockback that Ruugar does at times.

 

Okay, guess we just need to lvlup then

[justinplainview]

Okay, guess we just need to lvlup then

 

Nah, I'm not trying to say anything like that! From what I noticed, going back to watch those Coratanni 16 pulls, it's all about triage spike healing. It's not like the Coratanni kill was a joke, if you watch, literally 2 people were alive at the end of the fight. I'm just saying I'm not sure I would say it's wildly overtuned. I'm sure you guys will get it! If your guild full clears 8, as long as you can field a full 16 roster of relatively equal skill level, you'll get the full clear.

[davidp_newton]

So far as I am aware only one guild on The Progenitor has reached 8/10. That's the Imp guild Aeshma:

 

http://theprogenitor.enjin.com/home/page/1/m/6131325/viewthread/17356545-progression-overview

 

As for the difficulty of the content, I think that Bioware have gone about it the wrong way. They release nightmare modes of operations months after the originals. Contrast that with Blizzard where mythic difficulty (the equivalent) opens a week after the raid opens on normal and heroic. Overall I think that this tier is a bit too difficult on each difficulty level. Far better to give the nightmare raiders something to really get their teeth into very soon after story mode and hard mode are available. That would mean HM could be tuned less difficult. Unfortunately I suspect that this approach will not occur for resource reasons at Bioware. That is especially true as it would mean that at least two sets of raids would be required each year to keep people happy.

 

The fact that so few have killed Revan HM and Coratanni HM suggests those bosses are about the correct difficulty for nightmare mode bosses in the latter half of a nightmare mode, but too easy for a nightmare mode last boss. From what I can gather several people in Zorz reckon that the last phase of Revan gets towards or is at the limit of what people can cope with, but that still leaves the prior phases to tighten for a proper nightmare mode experience.

 

In summary I would say:

 

1. Release nightmare mode within two or three weeks of operations going live
   
2. Make sure there is a more even difficulty progression in bosses on all difficulty levels
   
3. Make HM a little easier this tier
   
4. Once the nightmare mode is released (see above) make most of its bosses about the difficulty of Revan and Coratanni HM and make Revan and Coratanni NiM consistent healing, mechanics and DPS checks through all phases
   

 

This tier has provided hardcore raiders with a challenge, but by the same token has fouled up the rewards for more normal players by dodgy loot table decisions (no Mk-2 Massassi gear) and uneven boss difficulty progression.

[ybdron]

Nah, I'm not trying to say anything like that! From what I noticed, going back to watch those Coratanni 16 pulls, it's all about triage spike healing. It's not like the Coratanni kill was a joke, if you watch, literally 2 people were alive at the end of the fight. I'm just saying I'm not sure I would say it's wildly overtuned. I'm sure you guys will get it! If your guild full clears 8, as long as you can field a full 16 roster of relatively equal skill level, you'll get the full clear.

 

Some of what I wrote earlier was based not only of my opinion, but also what the healers that did 8man and tried 16 said. In their opinion it was much easier to heal 8 man. I know for a fact that in 16 man Ruugar spawns 3 Death Mouses while it is only 2 in 8 man. This makes it more likely to take two hits at the same time in 16 , even though you should manage to kite it to split up the hits. If you fail to this you will most likely die, and you cant afford to have many deaths during this phase. Now, most of the times you will survive the droids, but then you have a leap going out that also hits the same guy that had the mouse droids for around 50k = gg.

 

Thanks for your confidence in us. I really like the general tuning of the difficulties of the different bosses, especially the last two. In my opinion its good that Bioware gives good players a challenge in this HM content. As for the Cora fight in 16, I think we have gotten him to 25% one time, but we hit enrage due to multiple ppl dead over a long period of time. I think the kill is within reach. We just need to pray more to rnjesus

 

As a last thing in this post I just want to wish everyone that is still progressing through the content good luck, whether its in 8 man or 16 man, and hats off for those who have killed all bosses!

[justinplainview]

So far as I am aware only one guild on The Progenitor has reached 8/10. That's the Imp guild Aeshma:

 

http://theprogenitor.enjin.com/home/page/1/m/6131325/viewthread/17356545-progression-overview

 

As for the difficulty of the content, I think that Bioware have gone about it the wrong way. They release nightmare modes of operations months after the originals. Contrast that with Blizzard where mythic difficulty (the equivalent) opens a week after the raid opens on normal and heroic. Overall I think that this tier is a bit too difficult on each difficulty level. Far better to give the nightmare raiders something to really get their teeth into very soon after story mode and hard mode are available. That would mean HM could be tuned less difficult. Unfortunately I suspect that this approach will not occur for resource reasons at Bioware. That is especially true as it would mean that at least two sets of raids would be required each year to keep people happy.

 

The fact that so few have killed Revan HM and Coratanni HM suggests those bosses are about the correct difficulty for nightmare mode bosses in the latter half of a nightmare mode, but too easy for a nightmare mode last boss. From what I can gather several people in Zorz reckon that the last phase of Revan gets towards or is at the limit of what people can cope with, but that still leaves the prior phases to tighten for a proper nightmare mode experience.

 

In summary I would say:

 

1. Release nightmare mode within two or three weeks of operations going live
   
2. Make sure there is a more even difficulty progression in bosses on all difficulty levels
   
3. Make HM a little easier this tier
   
4. Once the nightmare mode is released (see above) make most of its bosses about the difficulty of Revan and Coratanni HM and make Revan and Coratanni NiM consistent healing, mechanics and DPS checks through all phases
   

 

This tier has provided hardcore raiders with a challenge, but by the same token has fouled up the rewards for more normal players by dodgy loot table decisions (no Mk-2 Massassi gear) and uneven boss difficulty progression.

 

I mean, I'm all for them doing a raid approach similar to WoW in terms of release schedule etc, but they don't have the money to put into raids like WoW does, so that's an unrealistic view IMHO. As for Revan floor 3, while we think it's definitely NiM level difficulty, "reckon that the last phase of Revan gets towards or is at the limit of what people can cope with" is a viewpoint raised by GM of Death and Taxes, not Zorz. Many members in Zorz have already been doing borderline day-dreaming about what they can do for NiM with floor three. (Just don't let Fascinate design it)

 

I assume that Bioware made these bosses tuned to this level to have the content breathe for an extended period of time. I'd say that's a success overall. I worry at some level about the clearance rate % of guilds, but every time I get close to thinking it's too hard for the average player, another guild kills a final boss. Judging by the list we have already, and I am SURE that there are many more that have not been reporting their kills that are 8/10 (not to mention the countless guilds that are 5-7/10) this content is going to last until either NiM mode, or the next raid. I think that's fine. I will say this though, the SM's are.... oddly tuned. Some fights actually prepare you for HM (Sword Squadron and Bulo) whereas others are dreadful and you would not at all be prepared for the HM iterations (Torque, Master Blaster, Revan being the biggest examples).

 

Overall, I will say that Temple of Sacrifice and The Ravagers make for the best tier of Operations that Bioware has ever given us. I really like where they seem to be going with the game, but I think for them to go in this direction, Bioware needs to communicate the intent of the raid designers to the community at large, because it's clearly a shift in thinking for them.

[justinplainview]

Some of what I wrote earlier was based not only of my opinion, but also what the healers that did 8man and tried 16 said. In their opinion it was much easier to heal 8 man. I know for a fact that in 16 man Ruugar spawns 3 Death Mouses while it is only 2 in 8 man. This makes it more likely to take two hits at the same time in 16 , even though you should manage to kite it to split up the hits. If you fail to this you will most likely die, and you cant afford to have many deaths during this phase. Now, most of the times you will survive the droids, but then you have a leap going out that also hits the same guy that had the mouse droids for around 50k = gg.

 

Thanks for your confidence in us. I really like the general tuning of the difficulties of the different bosses, especially the last two. In my opinion its good that Bioware gives good players a challenge in this HM content. As for the Cora fight in 16, I think we have gotten him to 25% one time, but we hit enrage due to multiple ppl dead over a long period of time. I think the kill is within reach. We just need to pray more to rnjesus

 

As a last thing in this post I just want to wish everyone that is still progressing through the content good luck, whether its in 8 man or 16 man, and hats off for those who have killed all bosses!

 

As for the mouse droids, you have 3 instead of 2, but you also have literally twice as many healers and you know when mouse droids spawn, so the healers have time to tunnel heals into the raider with mouse droids on him, in addition to the raider having time to hit a cooldown. I FULLY admit that KB or Leap + Mouse Droids can kill you, but that can also happen in 8 man (though less often).

 

Now go get those final kill in 16

[bdatt]

I wish Bioware had been open and communicated their intent to make this content more difficult.

 

I've been in a casual guild that always cleared HM content while relevant. We rotate 12-15 folks through 8m progression on a 2 night a week schedule so clearing stuff and gearing is slow, but doable since the best could usually carry one or two people. The first I heard of the increased difficulty was like 2 days before launch someone that beta tested "heard a rumor" that content was exponentially more difficult. No word from Bioware.

 

Now I'm fine with the increased difficulty, but we can no longer carry someone doing 2k dps past any boss except Sparky, and don't have enough skilled people showing up regularly due to our casual nature. So basically I won't be able to carry someone until 4.0 and am forced to either a) wait until 4.0 or b) look for a new group 2 months into content. I'm working on the latter, but all of you in this thread can attest to it being difficult unless someone quits the game and a spot opens.

 

So from someone only 2/10 I'm fine with the increased difficulty and would be fine wiping on Cor and Revan for many months had I had sufficient advanced notice to get my **** together ahead of content launch.

[justinplainview]

I wish Bioware had been open and communicated their intent to make this content more difficult.

 

I've been in a casual guild that always cleared HM content while relevant. We rotate 12-15 folks through 8m progression on a 2 night a week schedule so clearing stuff and gearing is slow, but doable since the best could usually carry one or two people. The first I heard of the increased difficulty was like 2 days before launch someone that beta tested "heard a rumor" that content was exponentially more difficult. No word from Bioware.

 

Now I'm fine with the increased difficulty, but we can no longer carry someone doing 2k dps past any boss except Sparky, and don't have enough skilled people showing up regularly due to our casual nature. So basically I won't be able to carry someone until 4.0 and am forced to either a) wait until 4.0 or b) look for a new group 2 months into content. I'm working on the latter, but all of you in this thread can attest to it being difficult unless someone quits the game and a spot opens.

 

So from someone only 2/10 I'm fine with the increased difficulty and would be fine wiping on Cor and Revan for many months had I had sufficient advanced notice to get my **** together ahead of content launch.

 

It was said on official SWTOR stream that the new HMs would be harder before launch. It wasn't just a rumor. But this is another issue that your situation highlights. They just don't communicate effectively. If you didn't watch the twitch stream or you weren't in the closed beta, you wouldn't KNOW that Bioware had this plan. It would seem obvious to you or me that they (community team) would want to have the raid devs make a post before 3.0 with the expectations and whatnot.

 

The more I talk with people in SWTOR about the raiding in 3.0, it all comes back to communication. Bioware made some really good raids. Now let's work on the communicating part

[Xenphon]

I have enjoyed the new content. I find it refreshing that they have taken it to a new level difficulty-wise. It was previously far too easy on HM. I do agree that for most raiders Coratanni and Revan may be overtuned. It felt great downing Coratanni, though. My group is in it for NiM progression, so our PoV is different from most groups. As such, the difficulty may force people away from even bothering with Coratanni and Revan. Revan is especially hard HM-wise, but it will be all the sweeter when we finally kill him.

 

My main issue with this content is the obvious imbalance between melee and ranged, and BHs vs rest. I have never experienced content that disfavour (or favour) a certain classes (BH being above the rest by a good margin). I have downed 9/10 on my marauder. It's certainly harder than running a ranged or a PT, but it's doable. I have had one night on Revan on my marauder. That was enough. There's simply no point even bothering. It's a significant hindrance for the raid group's overall progression and personal enjoyment. I expected it to be hard, but it's actually downright awful how horrible it is to play a marauder there.

 

Unfortunately I do not believe BW will make much changes to NiM that will affect the current imbalance between the classes. That means that world firsts will most likely go to those that run into NiM with a full composition of BHs.

[Citruzz]

stacking sorcs makes ruugar a lot easier.

[namesaretough]

The fact that so few have killed Revan HM and Coratanni HM suggests those bosses are about the correct difficulty for nightmare mode bosses in the latter half of a nightmare mode, but too easy for a nightmare mode last boss. From what I can gather several people in Zorz reckon that the last phase of Revan gets towards or is at the limit of what people can cope with, but that still leaves the prior phases to tighten for a proper nightmare mode experience.

 

The feeling in our guild is pretty universal that they could buff all the coratanni fight and first 2 floors of revan no problem, and personally I think there's still room to make revan floor 3 harder. It's the classic thing where what people say immediately after they kill a fight ends up changing as you get more experienced in a fight. Ruugar in 186/192 felt like a different fight than it does now in 198s (admittedly mostly because of gear, but also experience), and that colored my opinions on the fight at the time pretty heavily. Revan immediately after the hydraulics change felt like it was the limit, but after a while you get comfortable with the mechanics. I think you could have 6+ anomolies, faster heartbeat, added blades or tether during floor 3, or other ideas that will get people mad at me and have it be manageable. It would be a nightmare, but killable, and I really like the idea of continually pushing the boundaries of what nightmare raids require of raiders. I think it would be a shame if any phase of any fight didn't get changed from HM to NiM, because that defeats the purpose of having a new difficulty imo.

 

Anyhow, sorry for the tangent. I'm really curious how the devs feel about this experiment, and I hope no matter what they decide going forward there's some communication.

Edited February 17, 2015 by namesaretough

[JDotter]

 

TL; DR: Is the Coratanni fight scaled right between 8 man and 16 man?

 

This is what I have planned for another thread I'm making soon.

 

My 8 vs 16 thoughts

 

8 vs 16

Have we reached the point where its not worth putting resources into 16M tuning? It was rather painful to do from a computer performance & tuning perspective. We literally had to restart our computers to prevent the game freezing to the in-out mechanic and floor three was near impossible with it freezing. For tuning the only fights that felt properly tuned were Coratanni ( though only 1 ricochet shot?) and Torque. Revan was adequate but the core burn was lacking compared to 8M.

 

Is it time to tunnel all the resources into the 8M basket and double the amount of groups running content?

 

As for Ruugar only thing that I thought needed tuning in 16M was the AoE KB it will kill anyone that is below 80% and unless its unintended it was the only mechanic we truly wiped to.

 

Again I've always been of the belief 16M was never about individual play and ability but rather herding 16 talented players into a group. I know it allows for Bioware to funnel more group finder content but at the cost 16M just isn't fun to run from a PC performance, management, or personal satisfaction standpoint for me.

 

As for my opinion on the tier: Love it would gladly accept having three tiers per year of SM-HM and no longer having NM. I'm still raiding in three groups and don't see myself cutting one back in the near future. I think I've spent more time this tier raiding than I did in DF-DP and I really enjoy the personal responsibility some fights offer.

 

I think this style of content is healthy for the longevity of the content cycle if it is what the majority want. I do think it'll make or break the more casual guilds and Bioware needs to come out saying this is our model going forward or we made a mistake and we apologize.

 

As for thoughts on Revan: It is harder than any fight in NM DF/DP. Brontes is the the only fight that contests it and Brontes was 60% on tanks and personal responsibility in knowing the KB rotation to maximize the up time on the boss. Revan is a mixture of coordination, personal responsibility, and planning. Zorz went through two progression cycles of Revan (press hydraulics), and the real "Revan". Real Revan is something we've never seen in the game but is 100% fair outside Bounty Hunters. I feel when groups start getting to floor three 80-100% of pulls we'll see kills weekly. I do think the learning curve from each perspective (DPS/Tank/Heal) is much more rigorous than any of the other 9 bosses this tier.

 

 

Unfortunately I do not believe BW will make much changes to NiM that will affect the current imbalance between the classes. That means that world firsts will most likely go to those that run into NiM with a full composition of BHs.

 

Assuming there is a NM Revan the following has to happen.

 

- Entrench/Hydraulics do not work on any floor of fight for any mechanic.

- Sonic Rebounder needs better tuning (Revan do you even heave?)

- A tether + ebola lockout ICD for DPS. Real melee have miserable up time on floor one.

 

 

The biggest advantage is how BH classes can do 550-630k on the core and at a minimum other classes are 100k behind that.

 

 

To end my post I would like to thank George and Matt and the other operation developers who creep in streams and designed this tier. If you are the man in charge please give us answers don't let us in the dark.

[Jojomagro]

stacking sorcs makes ruugar a lot easier.

 

Since you bring it up, how do your sorcs manage mouse droids? Threat drop cooldown? Our sage gets wrecked by them even with force armor and force barrier isn't off CD by the second time he got mice.

 

Staying on topic, I think the fights are all pretty fun and tuned well.

 

Edit: Only just thought of RNGsus and maybe he got two high end mouse droids. He checked the log and they were both at 29-30k.

Edited February 17, 2015 by Jojomagro

[JDotter]

Since you bring it up, how do your sorcs manage mouse droids? Threat drop cooldown? Our sage gets wrecked by them even with force armor and force barrier isn't off CD by the second time he got mice.

 

Cloud mind + DR talent + bubble.

 

Barrier to drop aggro get shield come out eat.

 

Self heal after running into one of droids asap.

 

Also if applicable

 

-Resurgence armor buff ( sorc healer)

-Guard swap ( assassin best W/talent)

- Diversion ( snipers)

- barrier to drop aggro get shield come out eat.

[Mazanator]

stacking sorcs makes ruugar a lot easier.

 

aka "uwot m8? 'av a 1 shot ya scrub" compared to Sniper

Edited February 17, 2015 by Mazanator

[Jojomagro]

Cloud mind + DR talent + bubble.

 

Barrier to drop aggro get shield come out eat.

 

Self heal after running into one of droids asap.

 

Also if applicable

 

-Resurgence armor buff ( sorc healer)

-Guard swap ( assassin best W/talent)

- Diversion ( snipers)

- barrier to drop aggro get shield come out eat.

 

nice didn't think of diversion. Thanks.

[Saenth]

My main comment is that Coratanni in 198 gear is vastly easier since you are much less likely to die to spikes and/or mistakes both when Coratanni is up, and also for Ruugar (P2), and the DPS check is much easier. If you are in 186 to 192 gear, and combine that with how Revan used to be totally cheesable, I would potentially argued Coratanni was just as hard as Revan at one point. So like Smugglin, I have to reconcile the truth of how the operations are now (Revan is a good bit harder than Coratanni since Unstable Aberrations force a tighter DPS and mechanics check on your group) with the fact that Coratanni and hydraulics Revan in December were similar difficulty to one another.

 

Grats to all on kills.

Edited February 17, 2015 by Saenth

[Saenth]

Also like others have mentioned, the advantage of Hydraulics on Revan now, while much less, is still a bit high. Anyone who has to pivot to face circles while midair during a pull in knows what I mean. From a healer PoV, Sorc bubbles for everyone, as well as Roaming Mend is great, and probably worth bringing in any case to extend how long you can survive Machine Core phase. But conversely, it's nice to be able to stand there and not worry about the pull in, and this needs to be removed for nightmare or we will bring a bunch of bounty hunters again. There are some times I could add more healer DPS on my Sorcerer for example, but I simply don't want to bother with the whole process of running in for 3 GCDs just to speed out so I can get pulled in. As for Operative healer, there's simply no benefit at all? They have the worst healer DPS, no hydraulics no knockback,, no bubble... poor Operatives. Clearly Merc/Sorc is the best combination for Revan, and also probably for most of the other fights.

 

And DPS can run/in out but they will have to do a lot more work and focus. BH hits Hydraulic on a 30s cooldown mindlessly and will survive all pull in by doing so. Other DPS must keep track of the pull in timing while watching purple.

Edited February 17, 2015 by Saenth

[davidp_newton]

I assume that Bioware made these bosses tuned to this level to have the content breathe for an extended period of time. I'd say that's a success overall. I worry at some level about the clearance rate % of guilds, but every time I get close to thinking it's too hard for the average player, another guild kills a final boss. Judging by the list we have already, and I am SURE that there are many more that have not been reporting their kills that are 8/10 (not to mention the countless guilds that are 5-7/10) this content is going to last until either NiM mode, or the next raid. I think that's fine. I will say this though, the SM's are.... oddly tuned. Some fights actually prepare you for HM (Sword Squadron and Bulo) whereas others are dreadful and you would not at all be prepared for the HM iterations (Torque, Master Blaster, Revan being the biggest examples).

 

Overall, I will say that Temple of Sacrifice and The Ravagers make for the best tier of Operations that Bioware has ever given us. I really like where they seem to be going with the game, but I think for them to go in this direction, Bioware needs to communicate the intent of the raid designers to the community at large, because it's clearly a shift in thinking for them.

 

Coming from the perspective of an SM raider I would heartily agree that the SMs are oddly tuned. I think that's the biggest issue with this tier of raids. Raid difficulty needed to be upped to stop people rofl-stomping them. It's the jumps that are so silly. Whereas in HM Coratanni and Revan are another step up in difficulty, the equivalent in SM is Underlurker!!! That is by far the hardest SM boss, and if the audience for it is the average PUG it is far, far, far, far too hard. The DPS check is trivial for a NiM raider of course. For us mere mortals it is tricky up doable (I have killed it). For your average PUG that doesn't raid in a guild it is impossible at the moment.

 

Jdotter's comments about whether it is worth tuning 16 man at all or just abandoning it as a bad idea also impact on SM raiding far more than HM raiding given the groupfinder situation. If raiding is to get better in this game the engine has to be sorted out. The thought of what the frame rates and mechanics would be like on a 16 man NiM Underlurker encounter at the moment are horrifying.

 

Personally speaking I think that my HM kills are going to be confined to Malaphar and Sparky for quite a while, and I've not got them yet.

 

As so often in this game recently it comes down to systematic lack of communication. By now we should know roughly when they intend to release NiM Ravagers and ToS. We should also have had communication about whether their new, harder raid setup has been a success. Personally speaking I think that for the hardcore raiders it has been as it has given them something to really get their teeth into. Looking further down the food chain I believe that it has been fairly neutral for those who got the old HMs on farm fairly quickly but never really progressed beyond Nefra NiM. They can still raid and kill stuff and they have juicy challenges awaiting them. Where I believe it has been an unmitigated disaster is at the PUG level. The lack of consistent difficulty increases through the SM instances and the borked loot tables have absolutely crushed PUGs. I am on an RP server rather than a PVE server (Progenitor), and it is now extremely rare to see anybody even trying to form a PUG, whether for level 55 or level 60 ops. I can still raid pretty regularly with my guild, but HM FPs and SM ops via GF are essentially dead as a doornail. That is potentially very damaging for the future of the game as it is causing players to leave and so reducing the potential future pool of high end ops runners.

[mastirkal]

To be fair, the 8 man groups for selectfew/intrepid have been working on revan instead of corta. There is a good chance some of the 27 guilds that are 8/10 are doing the same thing as us and see corta as a challenge, but not the end prize that is revan.

[Aerilas]

Not really relevant but, Vis Fatalis on TOFN are 6/10 atm though we only raid 6h a week. (I am assuming this is very low compared to many guilds on that list). We tend to focus more on pvp. And we've been slacking last 2 weeks Got all 6 down tonight so might progress this week. Edited February 17, 2015 by Aerilas

[Memo-]

Not really relevant but, Vis Fatalis on TOFN are 6/10 atm though we only raid 6h a week. (I am assuming this is very low compared to many guilds on that list). We tend to focus more on pvp. And we've been slacking last 2 weeks Got all 6 down tonight so might progress this week.

 

I think for a PvP guild that is phenomenal, all the more so since there are PvE guilds that don't have comparable progression yet - including my own. <Reilukerho> is 3/5 and 1/5 with two groups, and 2/5+1/5 with the third.

[Praetorian_jedi]

My group is currently 3/10 in current Hard modes an I love how challenging Hard Modes are! Two Thumbs up Bio Ware!!! Killing HM Bulo was very satisfying. I think the way current hard modes are will benefit the teams that are only interested in HM progression. It will make Hard mode kills more epic! So what it'll take longer then DF and DP as long as next tier of OPs doesn't take as long as this current tier took after DF DP was released. My groups will shoot for NiM once we're done with HM. Not sure how much success we will have but it'll be fun to attempt. Would be awesome if NiM is not released on school/college kids schedules so not in the summer where most of us goes on vaca with our families RAIDING IS SERIOUS BUSINESS !